All the more reason to attack Pacal then, it secures the entire west side of the continent and allows us to focus solely on Joao and Shaka in the future.
I think it's about time I started taking a part in this. I'll join as a Scientist, and if possible, I'd like to move over to Silver Snakes.
For our research path, I suggest we go for Horseback Riding soon, as having some Stables in our empire would help immensely in any upcoming wars. Of course, we should research Code of Laws beforehand, as we want those Courthouses to help with our Espionage. Other than those two, I have no ideas as to what we should research next.
As to who we attack first, I have to agree with travathian; Pacal is the easier opponent here, and nabbing his holy city will help us generate more money, which we can then use to further our nation as a whole. Joao can wait until later.
Most of these are self-explanatory, we're behind someone commerce wise, which is honestly a big surprising. Must be a Financial Civ on the coast elsewhere? Might even be the Maya. But a good deal above average, sweet.
Mfg. Goods is total production. We make 44 hammers empire wide, next best makes 33.
Crop Yield is food, we are WAY ahead with our flood plains everywhere.
Next is Soldiers: this is a combination of having certain military techs, buildings (barracks, walls) and units. We're just slightly ahead of #2 on this list, but well above average. I suspect #2 is Shaka, because that's how he plays.
Land area we're nearly double our next closes competitor.
Population we're a good size.
Approval Rating is how happy we are. We're too big and only have the two luxury resources and no religion to mitigate it.
Life Expectancy is a measure of our healthiness. Again: too big, though we have a good number of health resources and Granaries to help mitigate the problem.
Exports-Imports isn't a terribly meaningful stat.
Also, I checked out the Top 5 Cities and Paris is home to the Great Wall, Stonehenge, AND the Oracle. They probably used their free tech from the Oracle on Metal Casting.
Can we not knock out some package deals to fill in some of those lower-end techs?
I understand wanting to pick up code of laws (especially if it means we found confuscianism), but as our cities start getting bigger we're going to want actual priests
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
We can get Archery/Sailing/Meditation from Pacal for Math. Some money too, I think. Probably similar deals from Brennus or Louis. I can check it out if the Chancellor wants. I suspect we could pick up temples as well from trades.
Sailing leads to Calendar, which would allow us to get Spices, Incense, and Silks. We could also build a city just east of Silver Snakes to pick up Fur and Silver. There are a good number of resources for the taking. Also: we have Colosseums (cheap because of creative) and Forges make Gold give +2 happy instead of +1.
Oh, I should point out that the Mayans build a goodly number of Spearmen what with their unique unit being the Holkan. So that would probably be an axe/catapult or elephant/catapult war.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
Good night gentlemen:
I was thinking we need to go towards the Hanging Gardens in Pi-Dongbury but I need to rouse one of you engineers out of bed to do that.
Pacal is the green cities to our East right? If so, I propose we let our Warriors off their leash and bring ruin and despair to his lands!
Regarding Military Governors, if anyone from the Military would like to actually be a Governor let me know and i'll put you at the top of the lists. For now, MegaMek just got volunteered.
Could we violent types get some screen shots of what our military units are actually doing and where they are?
And city names? Pah, FORTRESS names! Fort Wang or a variation of. eg, Fort Shlong, etc
Open borders to Brennus/Louis, but not to Joao, Pacal or Shaka. We'll want to get the good side of the Celtic/French duo, as they will probably prove helpful in the inevitable wars against Joao (and probably Shaka).
2) What to do about the Joao problem?
Roll over him with our mighty war chariots, duh! I'll be over here in Dickerdale composing valiant hymns of triumph to celebrate our victorious warriors.
3) What to do about the border incidents I've sparked with Dickerdale?
Nothing for now. Our current forces don't match up well against Pacal's. I plan to pump culture HARD in Dickerdale, see if we can put some pressure on Pacal and if we're lucky, maybe even get a city to flip.
4) Who, if anyone, should we try to make friends with?
See above - I think our best long-term strategy will be to cozy up to Brennus and Louis, and crush the others.
Proposed build queue for Dickerdale:
Axeman-Library-War Chariot-Granary-Catapult. Hopefully by that point we'll have inherited some form of religion so we can build a temple/monastary. Thoughts?
Yeah, let Pacal moulder for now. If we want to take his cities, wait until he's built the buddhist holy site first. As for tech trades... If we're going to shoot for pyramids/hanging gardens, we should sit on mathmatics. I hate giving up alphabet, but if we can swap it for 4 techs, especially with our potential allies louis/brennan, it would be worth it.
1) Do we want to start the Pyramids? Yes. As the great Egyptian Empire it is fitting for us to build something that will be a testament to our greatness. A number of really, very large buildings will do just that.
2) Joao: set policy.
I have no particular opinion, not being particularly interested in worldly affairs such as these. That said, we have inherited an army from the previous administration and it would be such a shame to let them go to waste. However, I've gathered that both the French and the Celts aren't too happy about Joao. If we do go to war, a course to which I have no real objections, I think it might be prudent to have a few allies to distract Joao.
However, should we go to war, and the Warlord thinks an alliance with either the Celts or the French will end up giving them more territory than it would us, I can be persuaded to rethink that stance.
Now then. On to more important matters: Knowledge.
This world, as we all know, is ruled by some form of Great, Unknowable Beings and it is they who should set the rules for how we mere humble mortals should live. Unforunately, the Great Divine has chosen to not yet reveal themselves to their Chosen Nation of Egypt. As such, the people are still woefully unaware of [strike]their need to do everything us priests tell them to do[/strike] the way they should live. As such, I feel it is important that we devise some rules for them to live by, a Code of Laws, if you will. It will help bring stability and order to our Great Empire, until such a time, of course, that we can hand the rule over to the Gods.
Needless to say, all laws should be drawn up by priests since, as servants of a Higher Truth, they are the only ones who can be trusted to be just and fair.
Next, I think it might be wise to tend to the spirtual needs of the people. Even if our Magnificent Empire remains sadly godless, that it is no reason at all to deny our people the opportunity to seek spiritual growth. Meditation would be ideally suited for this. Besides, apart from fulfilling our people, I have little doubts that this introspectrive contemplation of the supernatural may end up benefitting our overall knowledge of the world.
Having now dealt with justice and spirituality (for the moment), it is time to move on to culture.
Our Empire is the Greatest Empire on the world, a point I cannot state often enough. But that obvious fact still is not entirely apparent to those poor, benighted outsider. And who can blame them? Our buildings and artwork (such as it is) can only be described as... functional. There is no sense of beauty here, no wonder. No one marvels at our mighty obelisks. And they should.
It is therefore imperative that we develop Aesthetics, so that our Empire can truly reflect the beauty it holds.
And one last thing... I would recommend to the Chancellor that they trade with someone for Iron Working. My bronze ceremonial knives are quite... adequate... but I believe they could be better. However, if the Chancellor decides not to trade knowledge with anyone, I ask the God-Empress to insert Iron Working somewhere in my proposals - preferably after Code of Laws.
[strike]Oh and I should move to Los Wangeles. Arcadia's great and all, but coastal cities are my kind of place. Double plus that it will eventually be involved in the cultural war with Pacal.[/strike]
Edit: I'll move to Dickerdale instead, as nobody besides governor Shalmelo has moved there and it was my second choice for a city to move to. I appreciate cultural warring.
Before addressing the policy questions, a little grand strategy:
With 7 cities we are currently the largest civ in the known world. This is a glorious position of course, but it carries with it budgetary dangers and I see from the most recent screencap in the thread that (as of 258BC) our science slider is already down to 50%. If we are not careful we will grow ourselves into a fiscal crisis by the early centuries AD. As such I think it would be wise to limit ourselves in the medium-term (say until the medieval era) to 10 cities whilst we wait for our cottages to build in value and our fiscal infrastructure to catch up with our sprawl. Unfortunately this gives us little room for manoever in the short term given the tempting targets presented by the Maya and the Portuguese not to mention the swathe of extremely valuable no man's land on our south-eastern flank which we risk conceding to Shaka if we don't adopt a forward policy in that area.
Sadly I must regard the recent acquisition of Silver Snakes as a mis-step given our current geopolitical context - there are much more valuable city sites that we are in danger of losing out on for the sake of that marginal polar city (but more on that later).
Regarding our SE flank, the suggestion to anchor our line on the barbarian city of Sangian is a good one I think - it's far enough forward to put us close to Shaka without being too close to his borders to be vulnerable to a coup de main whilst we are building it up. So, given that we have already spent time manoevering chariots to that location we should go ahead and annexe the city. However I do not think we should be building an infill city near the Cattle resource between Sangian and East Schlongville at this time, as we would be conceding too much territory in the eastern portion of this border area. Instead I would propose that a city be placed near the Horse/Gems/Gold resources about 8-10 squares to the ENE of Sangian. This would place our cultural boundary on a shallow diagonal trending from the coastal Corn resource/mountain in the NE down towards the Pig/Copper resources to the SW of the patch of black south of Sangian. A third frontier city somewhere in the triangle of the Pig/Copper/Ivory resources in that SW corner would give us a good forward line against Shaka with some nice mountains just in front of the line to help canalise Shaka's attacks once the (inevitable) Zulu war starts. We will then have the bulk of the current no man's land (with all those lovely luxury resources) available for us to backfill as and when our budgetary situation stabilises.
That frontier zone against Shaka uses up all of the remaining budget of cities that I proposed however and I haven't touched upon our posture towards Pacal or Joao yet, never mind Louis or Brennius.
Regarding Pacal, I think the answer is simple. The Maya present no threat to our position and we have bigger fish to fry elsewhere. We should therefore cultivate good relations with a long term aim of getting them vassalised to us by some time in the medieval/early renaissance era. On no account should we be invading/annexing Mayan territory at this time - the cities will just be a drain on our treasury and prevent us taking territory in the richer territories to the SE. Having a pet civilisation on our western flank will be a useful source of tech trades and resources without us needing to devote any effort to developing that part of the continent.
Regarding Joao, the answer isn't so easy. I am still of the opinion that we should be looking to eliminate the Portugee in the very near future. This may need to be done in a couple of bites rather than a single blow, but as soon as we have a chariot strikeforce in position then we should launch our offensive. This is probably going to be after we have annexed Sangian but before the catapaults are ready - so it's likely that we won't crack Lisbon on the first attack. But we should be able to trash the iron mine, take Evara and the southern city (whose name I can't make out on the screencaps that begins with a 'G') quite handily and possibly grab Oporto as well.
Assuming for the moment that the Portuguese wars are successful we will then be 'overbudget' WRT cities, so we should be planning to either raze or trade cities to bring our civilisation back to a more manageable size. Of the two options I prefer to trade away cities because (i) it doesn't waste the turns invested by the victim civ, (ii) you can get some juicy stuff in the trade plus a nice attitude bump on the diplomacy screen from whoever you give the city to and (iii) you have the possibility of reacquiring the city at a later stage in the game (with even more turns invested by whoever you traded the city to).
To that end therefore, I would propose the following city trades:
Lisbon we keep Evara to Pacal Oporto - keep it until we get Lisbon, then to Brennius G??? (in the south) - to Louis Fifth city - to either Louis or Brennius depending on how things stand with the rest of the trades.
If we're planting three frontier cities against Shaka, that still leaves us at 11 cities so I would like to also suggest that we trade Silver Snakes to Pacal as well - let the Mayans freeze their butts off developing the polar wastes of the North and West, we'll probably end up getting them back via culture swaps later in the game, but meanwhile we can focus on developing the jungles to the SE and getting all that dye and wine into production.
Turning to the specific policy questions EnlightenedBum wanted answered:
1) How do you feel about open borders?
They are a good thing. We should open borders to Pacal, Louis and Brennius ASAP but keep them closed to Shaka for the forseeable future. Joao won't be around long enough to matter, but maybe open borders with him to lull him into a false sense of security.
2) What to do about the Joao problem?
Kill him, render the Portuguese civ for parts and trade some plums to other civs to keep them sweet.
3) What to do about the border incidents I've sparked with Dickerdale?
Don't prosecute our encroachment upon the Mayans, but don't step back either. Let culture dominance do it's thing and meanwhile encourage Pacal to work up the low rent territory to our NW. Vassalise them as a pocket civ with about 6-7 cities and then bleed them with advantagous tech and resource trades.
4) Who, if anyone, should we try to make friends with?
Pacal (with a view to vassalisation) - this should evolve quickly into a patron/client relationship. Let Buddhism spread into our empire to help bolster the value of Pacal's holy city and provide us with a fallback if our relationship with the Hindu powers sours.
Louis - this is a peer-to-peer relationship of equals. So look for a quid pro quo in our dealings with him but work on cultivating his friendship. Convert to Hinduism at the first opportunity to help seal the deal.
Brennius - this is mainly to keep Louis sweet, but we should try to bolster Brennius as a counterweight to Louis.
Shaka - not at all. Keep borders closed and try and freeze him out of the Hindu alliance. He'll be pissed off at us soon enough without our provoking him, but we should do what we can to keep Louis and Brennius away from him.
Ultimately we should be looking to becoming the dominant power on this continent with Pacal as our (very) junior sidekick, Louis/Brennius locked in to a mutually beneficial alliance with us and Shaka as our designated victim whenever we have need for a holy war to keep everyone pointed in the same direction. This is eminently doable provided we don't expand quicker than our cash reserves can keep up.
If all the Engineers in Arcadia are slacking I could move back so we can start the Pyramids.
FunkyWaltDogg on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited February 2010
As a science advisor, I think that, especially considering Portugal and the Zulus, we should most likely concentrate on military tech for the time being, and tech that reveals resources. Therefore, I think we should go for Iron Working, then Aesthetics for the cultural advantage.
I was thinking we need to go towards the Hanging Gardens in Pi-Dongbury but I need to rouse one of you engineers out of bed to do that.
As an Engineer, I formally request that Pi-Dongbury do whatever needs to be done towards the end of building The Hanging Gardens. This will increase the health of our people by providing a constant, well-cultivated source of fresh fruit and vegetables and running water. It will also increase the expertise of our engineers, hopefully leading to a true legend coming from among us.
a5ehren on
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I was thinking we need to go towards the Hanging Gardens in Pi-Dongbury but I need to rouse one of you engineers out of bed to do that.
As an Engineer, I formally request that Pi-Dongbury do whatever needs to be done towards the end of building The Hanging Gardens. This will increase the health of our people by providing a constant, well-cultivated source of fresh fruit and vegetables and running water. It will also increase the expertise of our engineers, hopefully leading to a true legend coming from among us.
Thank You!
So add on the Hanging Gardens to the end of our que in Pi-Dongbury. I can't wait to stroll about the palms and date trees.
Look at that! We have 4 gold resources. That is a goddamn lot of gold. I propose opening up trade with some of our friendlier, not-about-to-be-declared-war-on (ie joao) neighbors for necessary resources to further our cause.
What cause is that? Why, SCIENCE of course! Not that any resources matter yet for that, but surely some of our neighbors have some luxuries to trade...
(ed: For civ. 4 firsttimers, no, there's no reason to have multiples of luxury resources until very late in the game.)
Capping the barb city down south would be a mistake. It is a pretty good distance from our capitol and thus will incur a heavy maintenance cost. Plus it is all jungle on the way there so it'll take significant worker turns to connect it to the road network. Not to mention that it will be under constant barbarian attacks, meaning we have to leave additional forces there to defend it. The one city is not enough to stop Shaka from expanding, as he'll just flank it.
Not to mention, those chariots coud have been used already on Joao and we could have attacked him, sacked his NW city, pillaged his iron, and possibly even taken his capitol by now.
Every turn we don't take advantage of a tech lead is one that costs us in the long run.
Ours is the greatest and most grand civilization in the world. Others must know of our might and glory. To that end, as our civilization's foremost and renowned Engineer I propose that I should be put in charge with the glorious task of building the Pyramids. The true Gods demand this large stone monument where our Glorious Council can be interred upon their death. Where will their spirits go if their physical forms cannot be eternally preserved? What savages will we have become, like our filthy Mayan and Portuguese Neighbors if we simply bury our dead? Many a slave will be worked to death in order to assure that we complete these mighty tombs first. It is the will of the Gods that the surrounding land be stripped of its woodlands in order to create proper whipping implements to drive the slaves to quickly complete our monument to ourselves. Any Slave who dies doing their duty shall be added to the mortar holding the great stones together to forever protect and serve the glorious council in the afterlife.
In fact, all of our conquered enemies remains should be interred in the great pyramid so as to forever relive their crushing defeat at the hands of our mighty Warlord. Their heretic priests buried beside them so that they may see the true religion of our empire.
With our access to stone and elephants there is no better a time to begin construction. The latest rains have brought a great harvest and with our abundance of slaves living off the fat of the land, their deaths will mean nothing as they are quickly replaced with other lowborn fodder.
With our recent advances in SCIENCE! Now is the time to strike while forges are raised in other cities with knowledge taken from simple barbarians and our armies preparing to march to war, the pyramids will rise over the horizon demonstrating our might and technological advancement from now until eternity.
The pyramids will spell one simple message seen by the Gods and the leaders of other civilizations alike
Leaders know the name of our queen of queens, look upon her works ye mighty, and despair!
a5ehren did a fine job, but that is how you propose a damn Wonder!
Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, there will be a couple official proposals today. Also, if the chancellor would like some pretty tech trade screenshots I can provide them.
General notes: no markets built yet, if we learn Code of Laws I think the courthouses should get the maintenance issues under control fairly easily. Also if I could get a Great Prophet to build the Confucian holy city that'd be awesome. We'll see if we can accomplish that. I think this next update might be a short one where I position forces for an attack on whichever Civ is preferred (still seems like Joao).
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
If we are going to build the Pyramids and the Gardens, they should be in the same city if possible, as they both generate GE points, thus increasing the chance and speed of great engineers, thus increasing the chances we can nab other wonders. Whichever city is building them should whip out a Forge first as well, and ensure that stone gets hooked up asap. The forge also allows for 1 engineer, increasing GE even more.
If we are going to build the Pyramids and the Gardens, they should be in the same city if possible, as they both generate GE points, thus increasing the chance and speed of great engineers, thus increasing the chances we can nab other wonders. Whichever city is building them should whip out a Forge first as well, and ensure that stone gets hooked up asap. The forge also allows for 1 engineer, increasing GE even more.
Why did I found Pi-Dongbury if I wasn't going to build at least a few wonders there? Perhaps you'd like to explain to the citzenry of Pi-Dongbury why they can't have nice things, while the fine folks of Arcadia have skittle pooping ponies.
The tech trade screenshot shows that brennus will trade polytheism, archery, sailing and ironworking, while louis will trade meditation, archery, sailing and ironworking. We should try and convert alphabet into those 5 techs, if possible.
So I propose trading alphabet to louis in exchange for IW and meditation
and alphabet to brennus for sailing, polytheism and archery if we can snag it
Normally I don't trade away alphabet to preserve my monopoly on tech trading, but we should keep math out of the hands of our rivals until we've built the hanging gardens.
Re: The shangian issue. Look at the city. It's on the wrong side of the river for us, w/o any innate defensive bonuses. We'd be hard pressed to defend it, and it would be a serious drain on our budget for not much gain. I think Lisbon would be a better acquistion, if possible, or failing that, evora and the iron mines.
Wait til we have Aesthetics and build GA wonders, people will be diggin a giant gold and ivory statue. GE's are going to be key to getting wonders, otherwise Louis is going to keep beating us to them. Him and Brennus are likely sharing research once they hit alphabet, so we can't depend on our tech lead to give us extra build turns. Pi can be used to crank out additional troops in the mean time.
tech trading: remember, once they all have alphabet, they will start trading amongst themselves, so we must trade any new tech to as many civs as possible all on the same turn to maximize our benefit, otherwise whoever we trade it to will just trade it to whomever we didn't trade it to.
travathian on
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Wait til we have Aesthetics and build GA wonders, people will be diggin a giant gold and ivory statue. GE's are going to be key to getting wonders, otherwise Louis is going to keep beating us to them. Him and Brennus are likely sharing research once they hit alphabet, so we can't depend on our tech lead to give us extra build turns. Pi can be used to crank out additional troops in the mean time.
tech trading: remember, once they all have alphabet, they will start trading amongst themselves, so we must trade any new tech to as many civs as possible all on the same turn to maximize our benefit, otherwise whoever we trade it to will just trade it to whomever we didn't trade it to.
Sounds good, but I'll have to consult the fine people of Pi-Dongbury and respect their input.
Actual debate! I'm glad that now that we're big enough to have some options this LP is going how I originally intended. Awesome. Awesome!
There will be proposals brought to the cabinet officially post-Daily Show. And I will execute any diplomatic initiatives the Chancellor would like at that time as well.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
The tech trade screenshot shows that brennus will trade polytheism, archery, sailing and ironworking, while louis will trade meditation, archery, sailing and ironworking. We should try and convert alphabet into those 5 techs, if possible.
So I propose trading alphabet to louis in exchange for IW and meditation
and alphabet to brennus for sailing, polytheism and archery if we can snag it
Normally I don't trade away alphabet to preserve my monopoly on tech trading, but we should keep math out of the hands of our rivals until we've built the hanging gardens.
Re: The shangian issue. Look at the city. It's on the wrong side of the river for us, w/o any innate defensive bonuses. We'd be hard pressed to defend it, and it would be a serious drain on our budget for not much gain. I think Lisbon would be a better acquistion, if possible, or failing that, evora and the iron mines.
My proposals from earlier, in case any one else has any input.
Oh yeah, and open borders with louis and brennus for now seems uncontroversial. As for pacal... half the point of building some of our cities was to cockblock him, if we open borders it does defeat that purpose, at least.
The best deal we can get with Louis. Not worth it.
We can get Iron and Polytheism for Alphabet from Brennus. However, I realized that if we did so, we would be giving Brennus Metal Casting (Louis has it from The Oracle), so I checked if we just did that trade and well hello. An interesting idea.
Just checked, we can get the exact same deal from Pacal.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
that trade with brennus looks totaly worth it. We should do that, He's going to get metal casting from one of the others soon enough anyway, might as well be us and get a good pile of techs.
Agree with Foomy - Brennus and Louis are buddy-buddy enough that he'd get Metal Casing soon enough from the French. Might as well get some of those early techs out of the way now. Take the deal from Brennus.
I agree with take the deal from Brennus, then see what they both offer a second time, and get open borders with them. We have enough cities that Hinduism has a decent chance of spreading to one of them in the next couple turns; and once we have it in one we can switch to OR and spread it like crazy.
As to the suggestion earlier of city trading, definitely against it. Joao's cities are developed, so when we capture them the maintenance hit will be offset by the additional income, plus being developed means it can build a courthouse pretty quick. I see no reason to give Pacal perfectly good cities when he is going to be targeted for extermination in the not to distant future. Assuming our tech lead remains secure, Elephants, catapults and crossbowmen will compliment our war chariots and make Pacal a pushover.
I agree with take the deal from Brennus, then see what they both offer a second time, and get open borders with them. We have enough cities that Hinduism has a decent chance of spreading to one of them in the next couple turns; and once we have it in one we can switch to OR and spread it like crazy.
One problem with this plan is the lack of Monotheism (and Meditation for the Missionaries). :P
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
agreed. Hadn't considered trading away metalworking; I doubt we're going to get the colossus so no need to hoard that tech.
Take the deal with Brennus and we can pick up meditation later. We don't really need to send out missionaries at the moment, our main concern should be sending out "missionaries" on chariots to spread the rule of the living god-queen. Preferably to the portuguese.
I agree with take the deal from Brennus, then see what they both offer a second time,
Always go right back in and see what they offer. We may be able to pawn off Alphabet to them and flesh out the rest of the ancient techs. If there are associated wonders that they haven't built yet they likely won't trade that tech to us.
And I agree with dojango, so long as one city has it we can make the switch and gain favor with the Hindu faction. Plus, Brennus may start shipping over missionaries to spread it so he can make more money. The AI loooooves spreading religions when it has a holy city.
Posts
For our research path, I suggest we go for Horseback Riding soon, as having some Stables in our empire would help immensely in any upcoming wars. Of course, we should research Code of Laws beforehand, as we want those Courthouses to help with our Espionage. Other than those two, I have no ideas as to what we should research next.
As to who we attack first, I have to agree with travathian; Pacal is the easier opponent here, and nabbing his holy city will help us generate more money, which we can then use to further our nation as a whole. Joao can wait until later.
Oh...my...god! We're America!!!
D:D:D:
I understand wanting to pick up code of laws (especially if it means we found confuscianism), but as our cities start getting bigger we're going to want actual priests
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Sailing leads to Calendar, which would allow us to get Spices, Incense, and Silks. We could also build a city just east of Silver Snakes to pick up Fur and Silver. There are a good number of resources for the taking. Also: we have Colosseums (cheap because of creative) and Forges make Gold give +2 happy instead of +1.
Oh, I should point out that the Mayans build a goodly number of Spearmen what with their unique unit being the Holkan. So that would probably be an axe/catapult or elephant/catapult war.
I was thinking we need to go towards the Hanging Gardens in Pi-Dongbury but I need to rouse one of you engineers out of bed to do that.
Regarding Military Governors, if anyone from the Military would like to actually be a Governor let me know and i'll put you at the top of the lists. For now, MegaMek just got volunteered.
Could we violent types get some screen shots of what our military units are actually doing and where they are?
And city names? Pah, FORTRESS names! Fort Wang or a variation of. eg, Fort Shlong, etc
4 dudes are headed down to this here barbarian city that we need to decide if we want to grab.
There's one spare Axeman in Pi-Dongbury and the rest of the spare offense is in East Schlongville.
Are we winning the culture war with Pacals cities?
Open borders to Brennus/Louis, but not to Joao, Pacal or Shaka. We'll want to get the good side of the Celtic/French duo, as they will probably prove helpful in the inevitable wars against Joao (and probably Shaka).
2) What to do about the Joao problem?
Roll over him with our mighty war chariots, duh! I'll be over here in Dickerdale composing valiant hymns of triumph to celebrate our victorious warriors.
3) What to do about the border incidents I've sparked with Dickerdale?
Nothing for now. Our current forces don't match up well against Pacal's. I plan to pump culture HARD in Dickerdale, see if we can put some pressure on Pacal and if we're lucky, maybe even get a city to flip.
4) Who, if anyone, should we try to make friends with?
See above - I think our best long-term strategy will be to cozy up to Brennus and Louis, and crush the others.
Proposed build queue for Dickerdale:
Axeman-Library-War Chariot-Granary-Catapult. Hopefully by that point we'll have inherited some form of religion so we can build a temple/monastary. Thoughts?
Yes. As the great Egyptian Empire it is fitting for us to build something that will be a testament to our greatness. A number of really, very large buildings will do just that.
2) Joao: set policy.
I have no particular opinion, not being particularly interested in worldly affairs such as these. That said, we have inherited an army from the previous administration and it would be such a shame to let them go to waste. However, I've gathered that both the French and the Celts aren't too happy about Joao. If we do go to war, a course to which I have no real objections, I think it might be prudent to have a few allies to distract Joao.
However, should we go to war, and the Warlord thinks an alliance with either the Celts or the French will end up giving them more territory than it would us, I can be persuaded to rethink that stance.
Now then. On to more important matters: Knowledge.
This world, as we all know, is ruled by some form of Great, Unknowable Beings and it is they who should set the rules for how we mere humble mortals should live. Unforunately, the Great Divine has chosen to not yet reveal themselves to their Chosen Nation of Egypt. As such, the people are still woefully unaware of [strike]their need to do everything us priests tell them to do[/strike] the way they should live. As such, I feel it is important that we devise some rules for them to live by, a Code of Laws, if you will. It will help bring stability and order to our Great Empire, until such a time, of course, that we can hand the rule over to the Gods.
Needless to say, all laws should be drawn up by priests since, as servants of a Higher Truth, they are the only ones who can be trusted to be just and fair.
Next, I think it might be wise to tend to the spirtual needs of the people. Even if our Magnificent Empire remains sadly godless, that it is no reason at all to deny our people the opportunity to seek spiritual growth. Meditation would be ideally suited for this. Besides, apart from fulfilling our people, I have little doubts that this introspectrive contemplation of the supernatural may end up benefitting our overall knowledge of the world.
Having now dealt with justice and spirituality (for the moment), it is time to move on to culture.
Our Empire is the Greatest Empire on the world, a point I cannot state often enough. But that obvious fact still is not entirely apparent to those poor, benighted outsider. And who can blame them? Our buildings and artwork (such as it is) can only be described as... functional. There is no sense of beauty here, no wonder. No one marvels at our mighty obelisks. And they should.
It is therefore imperative that we develop Aesthetics, so that our Empire can truly reflect the beauty it holds.
And one last thing... I would recommend to the Chancellor that they trade with someone for Iron Working. My bronze ceremonial knives are quite... adequate... but I believe they could be better. However, if the Chancellor decides not to trade knowledge with anyone, I ask the God-Empress to insert Iron Working somewhere in my proposals - preferably after Code of Laws.
Edit: I'll move to Dickerdale instead, as nobody besides governor Shalmelo has moved there and it was my second choice for a city to move to. I appreciate cultural warring.
With 7 cities we are currently the largest civ in the known world. This is a glorious position of course, but it carries with it budgetary dangers and I see from the most recent screencap in the thread that (as of 258BC) our science slider is already down to 50%. If we are not careful we will grow ourselves into a fiscal crisis by the early centuries AD. As such I think it would be wise to limit ourselves in the medium-term (say until the medieval era) to 10 cities whilst we wait for our cottages to build in value and our fiscal infrastructure to catch up with our sprawl. Unfortunately this gives us little room for manoever in the short term given the tempting targets presented by the Maya and the Portuguese not to mention the swathe of extremely valuable no man's land on our south-eastern flank which we risk conceding to Shaka if we don't adopt a forward policy in that area.
Sadly I must regard the recent acquisition of Silver Snakes as a mis-step given our current geopolitical context - there are much more valuable city sites that we are in danger of losing out on for the sake of that marginal polar city (but more on that later).
Regarding our SE flank, the suggestion to anchor our line on the barbarian city of Sangian is a good one I think - it's far enough forward to put us close to Shaka without being too close to his borders to be vulnerable to a coup de main whilst we are building it up. So, given that we have already spent time manoevering chariots to that location we should go ahead and annexe the city. However I do not think we should be building an infill city near the Cattle resource between Sangian and East Schlongville at this time, as we would be conceding too much territory in the eastern portion of this border area. Instead I would propose that a city be placed near the Horse/Gems/Gold resources about 8-10 squares to the ENE of Sangian. This would place our cultural boundary on a shallow diagonal trending from the coastal Corn resource/mountain in the NE down towards the Pig/Copper resources to the SW of the patch of black south of Sangian. A third frontier city somewhere in the triangle of the Pig/Copper/Ivory resources in that SW corner would give us a good forward line against Shaka with some nice mountains just in front of the line to help canalise Shaka's attacks once the (inevitable) Zulu war starts. We will then have the bulk of the current no man's land (with all those lovely luxury resources) available for us to backfill as and when our budgetary situation stabilises.
That frontier zone against Shaka uses up all of the remaining budget of cities that I proposed however and I haven't touched upon our posture towards Pacal or Joao yet, never mind Louis or Brennius.
Regarding Pacal, I think the answer is simple. The Maya present no threat to our position and we have bigger fish to fry elsewhere. We should therefore cultivate good relations with a long term aim of getting them vassalised to us by some time in the medieval/early renaissance era. On no account should we be invading/annexing Mayan territory at this time - the cities will just be a drain on our treasury and prevent us taking territory in the richer territories to the SE. Having a pet civilisation on our western flank will be a useful source of tech trades and resources without us needing to devote any effort to developing that part of the continent.
Regarding Joao, the answer isn't so easy. I am still of the opinion that we should be looking to eliminate the Portugee in the very near future. This may need to be done in a couple of bites rather than a single blow, but as soon as we have a chariot strikeforce in position then we should launch our offensive. This is probably going to be after we have annexed Sangian but before the catapaults are ready - so it's likely that we won't crack Lisbon on the first attack. But we should be able to trash the iron mine, take Evara and the southern city (whose name I can't make out on the screencaps that begins with a 'G') quite handily and possibly grab Oporto as well.
Assuming for the moment that the Portuguese wars are successful we will then be 'overbudget' WRT cities, so we should be planning to either raze or trade cities to bring our civilisation back to a more manageable size. Of the two options I prefer to trade away cities because (i) it doesn't waste the turns invested by the victim civ, (ii) you can get some juicy stuff in the trade plus a nice attitude bump on the diplomacy screen from whoever you give the city to and (iii) you have the possibility of reacquiring the city at a later stage in the game (with even more turns invested by whoever you traded the city to).
To that end therefore, I would propose the following city trades:
Lisbon we keep
Evara to Pacal
Oporto - keep it until we get Lisbon, then to Brennius
G??? (in the south) - to Louis
Fifth city - to either Louis or Brennius depending on how things stand with the rest of the trades.
If we're planting three frontier cities against Shaka, that still leaves us at 11 cities so I would like to also suggest that we trade Silver Snakes to Pacal as well - let the Mayans freeze their butts off developing the polar wastes of the North and West, we'll probably end up getting them back via culture swaps later in the game, but meanwhile we can focus on developing the jungles to the SE and getting all that dye and wine into production.
Turning to the specific policy questions EnlightenedBum wanted answered:
1) How do you feel about open borders?
They are a good thing. We should open borders to Pacal, Louis and Brennius ASAP but keep them closed to Shaka for the forseeable future. Joao won't be around long enough to matter, but maybe open borders with him to lull him into a false sense of security.
2) What to do about the Joao problem?
Kill him, render the Portuguese civ for parts and trade some plums to other civs to keep them sweet.
3) What to do about the border incidents I've sparked with Dickerdale?
Don't prosecute our encroachment upon the Mayans, but don't step back either. Let culture dominance do it's thing and meanwhile encourage Pacal to work up the low rent territory to our NW. Vassalise them as a pocket civ with about 6-7 cities and then bleed them with advantagous tech and resource trades.
4) Who, if anyone, should we try to make friends with?
Pacal (with a view to vassalisation) - this should evolve quickly into a patron/client relationship. Let Buddhism spread into our empire to help bolster the value of Pacal's holy city and provide us with a fallback if our relationship with the Hindu powers sours.
Louis - this is a peer-to-peer relationship of equals. So look for a quid pro quo in our dealings with him but work on cultivating his friendship. Convert to Hinduism at the first opportunity to help seal the deal.
Brennius - this is mainly to keep Louis sweet, but we should try to bolster Brennius as a counterweight to Louis.
Shaka - not at all. Keep borders closed and try and freeze him out of the Hindu alliance. He'll be pissed off at us soon enough without our provoking him, but we should do what we can to keep Louis and Brennius away from him.
Ultimately we should be looking to becoming the dominant power on this continent with Pacal as our (very) junior sidekick, Louis/Brennius locked in to a mutually beneficial alliance with us and Shaka as our designated victim whenever we have need for a holy war to keep everyone pointed in the same direction. This is eminently doable provided we don't expand quicker than our cash reserves can keep up.
Regards
Luke
As an Engineer, I formally request that Pi-Dongbury do whatever needs to be done towards the end of building The Hanging Gardens. This will increase the health of our people by providing a constant, well-cultivated source of fresh fruit and vegetables and running water. It will also increase the expertise of our engineers, hopefully leading to a true legend coming from among us.
Thank You!
So add on the Hanging Gardens to the end of our que in Pi-Dongbury. I can't wait to stroll about the palms and date trees.
Look at that! We have 4 gold resources. That is a goddamn lot of gold. I propose opening up trade with some of our friendlier, not-about-to-be-declared-war-on (ie joao) neighbors for necessary resources to further our cause.
What cause is that? Why, SCIENCE of course!
(ed: For civ. 4 firsttimers, no, there's no reason to have multiples of luxury resources until very late in the game.)
Not to mention, those chariots coud have been used already on Joao and we could have attacked him, sacked his NW city, pillaged his iron, and possibly even taken his capitol by now.
Every turn we don't take advantage of a tech lead is one that costs us in the long run.
In fact, all of our conquered enemies remains should be interred in the great pyramid so as to forever relive their crushing defeat at the hands of our mighty Warlord. Their heretic priests buried beside them so that they may see the true religion of our empire.
With our access to stone and elephants there is no better a time to begin construction. The latest rains have brought a great harvest and with our abundance of slaves living off the fat of the land, their deaths will mean nothing as they are quickly replaced with other lowborn fodder.
With our recent advances in SCIENCE! Now is the time to strike while forges are raised in other cities with knowledge taken from simple barbarians and our armies preparing to march to war, the pyramids will rise over the horizon demonstrating our might and technological advancement from now until eternity.
The pyramids will spell one simple message seen by the Gods and the leaders of other civilizations alike
Leaders know the name of our queen of queens, look upon her works ye mighty, and despair!
a5ehren did a fine job, but that is how you propose a damn Wonder!
Anyway, I appreciate the discussion, there will be a couple official proposals today. Also, if the chancellor would like some pretty tech trade screenshots I can provide them.
General notes: no markets built yet, if we learn Code of Laws I think the courthouses should get the maintenance issues under control fairly easily. Also if I could get a Great Prophet to build the Confucian holy city that'd be awesome. We'll see if we can accomplish that. I think this next update might be a short one where I position forces for an attack on whichever Civ is preferred (still seems like Joao).
Why did I found Pi-Dongbury if I wasn't going to build at least a few wonders there? Perhaps you'd like to explain to the citzenry of Pi-Dongbury why they can't have nice things, while the fine folks of Arcadia have skittle pooping ponies.
So I propose trading alphabet to louis in exchange for IW and meditation
and alphabet to brennus for sailing, polytheism and archery if we can snag it
Normally I don't trade away alphabet to preserve my monopoly on tech trading, but we should keep math out of the hands of our rivals until we've built the hanging gardens.
Re: The shangian issue. Look at the city. It's on the wrong side of the river for us, w/o any innate defensive bonuses. We'd be hard pressed to defend it, and it would be a serious drain on our budget for not much gain. I think Lisbon would be a better acquistion, if possible, or failing that, evora and the iron mines.
tech trading: remember, once they all have alphabet, they will start trading amongst themselves, so we must trade any new tech to as many civs as possible all on the same turn to maximize our benefit, otherwise whoever we trade it to will just trade it to whomever we didn't trade it to.
Sounds good, but I'll have to consult the fine people of Pi-Dongbury and respect their input.
There will be proposals brought to the cabinet officially post-Daily Show. And I will execute any diplomatic initiatives the Chancellor would like at that time as well.
My proposals from earlier, in case any one else has any input.
Oh yeah, and open borders with louis and brennus for now seems uncontroversial. As for pacal... half the point of building some of our cities was to cockblock him, if we open borders it does defeat that purpose, at least.
The best deal we can get with Louis. Not worth it.
We can get Iron and Polytheism for Alphabet from Brennus. However, I realized that if we did so, we would be giving Brennus Metal Casting (Louis has it from The Oracle), so I checked if we just did that trade and well hello. An interesting idea.
Just checked, we can get the exact same deal from Pacal.
As to the suggestion earlier of city trading, definitely against it. Joao's cities are developed, so when we capture them the maintenance hit will be offset by the additional income, plus being developed means it can build a courthouse pretty quick. I see no reason to give Pacal perfectly good cities when he is going to be targeted for extermination in the not to distant future. Assuming our tech lead remains secure, Elephants, catapults and crossbowmen will compliment our war chariots and make Pacal a pushover.
One problem with this plan is the lack of Monotheism (and Meditation for the Missionaries). :P
Take the deal with Brennus and we can pick up meditation later. We don't really need to send out missionaries at the moment, our main concern should be sending out "missionaries" on chariots to spread the rule of the living god-queen. Preferably to the portuguese.
Always go right back in and see what they offer. We may be able to pawn off Alphabet to them and flesh out the rest of the ancient techs. If there are associated wonders that they haven't built yet they likely won't trade that tech to us.
And I agree with dojango, so long as one city has it we can make the switch and gain favor with the Hindu faction. Plus, Brennus may start shipping over missionaries to spread it so he can make more money. The AI loooooves spreading religions when it has a holy city.