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I blow up all my relationships [CAN BE LOCKED]
Eshu
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
(This is an alt, as many of my friends use these forums, and several of them know my girlfriend.)
I guess the easiest way to put it is that I alienate people. Friends, family, romantic partners. Everyone. I'm not saying this from a place of self-loathing. I've got a lot going for me (I'm funny, smart, engaging, and generally a blast to spend time with), and I have very little trouble making new friends, or beginning new relationships. But I have often said that every acquaintance I make has an expiration date, and this has so far held true. I guess what you could say is that in the world of socializing, I'm a sprinter: great out of the gate, but lacking stamina. What I want to to develop some endurance.
What do I mean by alienating people? Well, for the most part, whenever I develop real affection for someone (platonic or romantic), I generally start treating them horribly, until eventually the bond is completely destroyed. To be fair, I do not do this intentionally, or from a place of maliciousness, but it happens all the same.
The reason why I'm posting this is the maddening influence it has over my romantic life. I have been in a LOT of relationships, from casual to committed, and a cursory review seems to indicate that I have two choices: 1.) troubled, sometimes unhappy relationships with women I love passionately, or 2.) healthy(-looking), stable relationships with women I feel virtually nothing more than benign indifference for.
Take for example my recent engagement. This relationship, with a woman I loved very deeply, was always a little rocky. When it progressed to an actual engagement, my disruptive behavior rapidly escalated. I engineered pointless arguments over issues I knew were particularly upsetting to her, I willfully and repeatedly toyed with her emotions, and I left her a few times, even though I had no intent of staying gone. Please believe that this behavior was -- or rather, felt -- completely out of my hands; it is only now, on objective consideration, that I see just how wretched I was.
Another example would be my current relationship. She is a delightful woman, and -- on paper at least -- a pretty great "catch": I always have fun with her, I have great respect for her intellect and wit, and I find her physically attractive. Yet I feel almost nothing for her. We have had zero turbulence, and I treat her with uniform kindness and respect. But I feel literally no emotional investment in this relationship.
And although it weighs less heavily on me at the moment, I have recently torpedoed two lovely platonic friendships by saying the most vile, manipulative, horrible things I could to the people in question.
I'm sure that this all has to do with a fear of abandonment, or somesuch, and that if I all-but-intentionally destroy every friendship and romantic relationship I have, no one will ever leave me...it will always be me exerting some sort of control, if only by driving them away.
I'm not positive, of course. This is just my hypothesis.
So I suppose my question is this: what on Earth can I do to break this horribly distressing cycle? While not on the table at the moment, cognitive therapy is a definite priority. I have no trouble asking for help -- professional or otherwise -- when I need it, and as soon my temporary financial downturn is rectified, you can be sure I will seek it out. In the meantime, however, I need some way to address this, even if it's only discussing it with strangers on the internet. Any suggestions as to reading, exercises, or even groups would be greatly appreciated.
TL;DR I can only have "healthy" relationships with people I don't care about.
I guess the easiest way to put it is that I alienate people. Friends, family, romantic partners. Everyone. I'm not saying this from a place of self-loathing. I've got a lot going for me (I'm funny, smart, engaging, and generally a blast to spend time with), and I have very little trouble making new friends, or beginning new relationships. But I have often said that every acquaintance I make has an expiration date, and this has so far held true. I guess what you could say is that in the world of socializing, I'm a sprinter: great out of the gate, but lacking stamina. What I want to to develop some endurance.
What do I mean by alienating people? Well, for the most part, whenever I develop real affection for someone (platonic or romantic), I generally start treating them horribly, until eventually the bond is completely destroyed. To be fair, I do not do this intentionally, or from a place of maliciousness, but it happens all the same.
The reason why I'm posting this is the maddening influence it has over my romantic life. I have been in a LOT of relationships, from casual to committed, and a cursory review seems to indicate that I have two choices: 1.) troubled, sometimes unhappy relationships with women I love passionately, or 2.) healthy(-looking), stable relationships with women I feel virtually nothing more than benign indifference for.
Take for example my recent engagement. This relationship, with a woman I loved very deeply, was always a little rocky. When it progressed to an actual engagement, my disruptive behavior rapidly escalated. I engineered pointless arguments over issues I knew were particularly upsetting to her, I willfully and repeatedly toyed with her emotions, and I left her a few times, even though I had no intent of staying gone. Please believe that this behavior was -- or rather, felt -- completely out of my hands; it is only now, on objective consideration, that I see just how wretched I was.
Another example would be my current relationship. She is a delightful woman, and -- on paper at least -- a pretty great "catch": I always have fun with her, I have great respect for her intellect and wit, and I find her physically attractive. Yet I feel almost nothing for her. We have had zero turbulence, and I treat her with uniform kindness and respect. But I feel literally no emotional investment in this relationship.
And although it weighs less heavily on me at the moment, I have recently torpedoed two lovely platonic friendships by saying the most vile, manipulative, horrible things I could to the people in question.
I'm sure that this all has to do with a fear of abandonment, or somesuch, and that if I all-but-intentionally destroy every friendship and romantic relationship I have, no one will ever leave me...it will always be me exerting some sort of control, if only by driving them away.
I'm not positive, of course. This is just my hypothesis.
So I suppose my question is this: what on Earth can I do to break this horribly distressing cycle? While not on the table at the moment, cognitive therapy is a definite priority. I have no trouble asking for help -- professional or otherwise -- when I need it, and as soon my temporary financial downturn is rectified, you can be sure I will seek it out. In the meantime, however, I need some way to address this, even if it's only discussing it with strangers on the internet. Any suggestions as to reading, exercises, or even groups would be greatly appreciated.
TL;DR I can only have "healthy" relationships with people I don't care about.
Eshu on
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If you feel nothing for someone, stop seeing them. Don't lead them on for your own personal amusement.
Stop being an asshole. When you think about saying something (which will, apparently be really assholeish) count to 10, think about it and what their reaction would be then decide weather to say it or not.
Get help though, there is something else deeper than just being a prick that is causing this behavior.
This sounds pretty apt to me.
When you're actually in a relationship and treating a girl horribly, what's going through your head? Do you genuinely not care what she's feeling? Or are you enjoying the power you know you have over her emotions? That's an important distinction to make, at least till you can afford therapy.
My other guess is narcissistic/entitled where you expect others to do all the work and just love you because of how wonderful you are, not because you recpriocate. When they don't do this, you make excuses for why they behave the way they do, rather than looking at how your actions contributed to the problem.
Not seeing people when I feel nothing for them is a sticky issue. Upon meeting people, whether potential friends or romantic partners, I am generally filled with a strong distaste or annoyance. This makes actual friendships and relationships a little tricky, as all must essentially start with a gamble. Will I stop disliking this person? Will I ever genuinely enjoy their company? Provided they stop annoying me, will I experience a genuine emotional response to them?
As regards your second point, I wouldn't say that I feel entitlement in most relationships. As for a subconscious resentment for people who don't simply love "because of how wonderful [I am]", I would likewise say that I generally have the opposite issue: people usually care for me far, far more than I care for them. Most of my partners have formed rapid, intense affection for me, whereas my own affection -- if it comes -- takes far, far longer to develop.
Did a parent skip out on you, or was neglectful?
My home life was fairly good. My mother and father were happily -- one might even say dopily -- in love, and both were very affectionate with me. My only sibling, a younger sister, was one of my closest friends. There was no physical or emotional abuse of any sort, and while they certainly loved to party, my folks had no substance abuse issues. The only unhappy business of my childhood was that my father was perhaps a bit selfish; he rarely came to games or concerts my sister or I were involved in, and when he did, he only stayed briefly and grudgingly. He is also a very brilliant man, and my sister and I both felt a sense of having to earn his love, even though, as I said above, he was always very lovingly and unrestrainedly affectionate with us.
The only professional I've seen as an adult was extremely bright, and I respected her a great deal. While she is not a cognitive therapist, I trust that any referral she made would be well-suited, and I would start with that person on a footing of sincerity. I thank you for your extremely well-spotted advice, however, as it is entirely consistent with my personality to do more or less what you describe.
It takes a good heart to turn to someone and say "I've treated you poorly and I'm sorry." Anyone who is/was truly your friend, or who truly cares/d about you will respect and understand that. I assume that your friends, lovers, family have noticed this fault - and would be so proud of you to be able to admit it outloud and apologize for the hurt it has caused.
I saw in your post that you said something like "she's a pretty great catch on paper". I have lots of friends that I would consider "great catches" - attractive, witty, intelligent; all the things you've mentioned - but I don't feel anything for them. They're friends. What you have (it sounds like) is a girl that you've gotten into a relationship with someone who should be a friend because you maybe feel a need to be in a relationship? Is that a possibility? How old are you..? This could also be a factor in figuring this out..
This is a very destructive cycle, though. I'm sorry you're going through it, and I wish you luck with fixing it. It almost sounds like your brain is trying to push you away from the people who make you the happiest ... maybe because you believe they might hurt you in some way down the line if you don't hurt them first?
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ahh i agree with rocketsauce - sounds like you're testing people. but i don't know what happens when you feel you're done testing? sounds like your engagement ended ... do you just halt communications when you feel you've tested to their limits? i mean, everyone has a limit so this would be a really self-destructive test.
Am I correct to assume you tend to keep small groups of friends as larger groups of friends you don't see much of can't really be your friends anyway, they are more just people you know and have hung around a few times.
How about with your friends have you ever just up and fell off of the face of the earth just to see which of your friends would actually attempt to contact you and see what you are up to?
I ask both of those questions as some one who has done both and who still is not interested in large groups of friends.
Anyway relating to what you are saying doesn't advice make, what really worked for me was coming to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter if I concieve people as better or worse or less intelligent or what ever then I am. What really matters is that I needed to just take people at face value and not put them all thru some standardized testing to earn my friendship or a relationship with me. Sure I think highly of myself but it's not right to act like or feel like I am better than anyone on an emotional level. If the person has something going for them that I enjoy I give em a shot and don't just assume they are gonna be annoying or a jerk down the road. It's very difficult to feel anything for people if you aren't going into the situation thinking of them like people but as some equation you are trying to solve.
e: also my spelling is horrid...
I was going to say that this sounds like mommy or daddy issues. Reread that little paragraph about your dad and see if it sounds at all like what you are doing (selfish, making people earn your love).
Therapy is work, and make no mistake all of the work will be done by you. A therapist is like a tutor, someone to show you how work through something, and then you work through it. I don't think you need intensive therapy or meds, but it might help just to talk to a professional a few times to so see if they could help.
The problem is what I alluded to before: I almost never have a positive response to people, initially, so this is not exactly an "I really just see you as a friend" reaction. I have to push through an initial period of tepid indifference -- or active distaste -- before I eventually warm up to anyone. It's just what I have to do. I have stayed in friendships and romantic relationships that started this way, and many have changed over time and become delightful and rewarding. If I stopped mucking through the rough bit at the beginning, however, I would almost literally never make friends or date.
I think that's exactly what this is. I don't feel a conscious, overt fear of abandonment, but it's certainly the best explanation I have yet found for why I act the way I do.
Oh, and I'm around 30 years old.
So, uh.
Be more stupid?
Example: I just want to warn you that I have a problem with being close to people and the better I know them the more I try to torpedo the relationship. I'm getting help for it but I'd like to get to know you better and I just want you to know that ahead of time so that you know that if I do it, it isn't personal and maybe you can help me by pointing out that I'm doing it.
This is purely based on the fact that you're posting and seem to want to stop doing it. People are a lot more understanding about things if you let them know what's up and that you don't want to do it. Not only that, it might help you to have someone tell you, "Hey, do you really mean to be doing this? Because it seems like you're doing what you said you were trying not to do."
Thank you -- and everyone else -- for the advice regarding therapists. I have not had therapy as an adult, but I am aware that it can only be productive as I make it, and that hard work and sincerity are required to make progress. I intend to give it both, when the time comes.
It's not a bad thing to start out with a blank or slightly negative slate when it comes to new friends, as long as you are being kind and respectful towards them. I mean, not everyone is meant to be a friend - and, if you are a loyal, dedicated friend once you're past a certain point, they should be earning your friendship as much as you theirs. This just sounds like an extreme version of that.
And to what DeserpateRobots said - I agree. You sound extremely intelligent (from how you've written your OP alone - big words! Concise!) and I know that anyone to certain extremes will cast extreme judgment (and become annoyed as hell) with people who demonstrate themselves to be below average in whatever trait you deem important in yourself, even if you don't mean to. I'm guilty of this - not with intelligence - but with another trait; so in some way, I could understand if this was partially an issue.
I've been working on this myself and the main thing I have to do is to stop and think what I really want to have happen in a situation and decide if my argument or coming across as "right" is worth the likely consequences. This is pretty much an everytime I open my mouth thing, so it's not that easy. Essentially, you need to think more about what you're trying to accomplish and prioritize the outcomes. Do you really want to see how someone will react to a situation or is it more important to you that that person remain happy in knowing you and being a part of your life?
Expanding on this a bit - this is something that I think most relationships have to go through at some point -it's really asking whether whatever the subject at hand is, is worth a fight or negative reaction over. If you're argumentative and prone to relationship sabotage, you just have to ask that question a lot more than other people.
For example, both of the friendships I mention sabotaging (in the OP) were with folks I had openly and sincerely informed of my interpersonal issues, straightaway. I almost always tell people I'm dating more or less the same thing.
Unfortunately, the prospect of an interesting, nuanced, forceful, confident person who is admittedly "defective" will, as often as not, simply pique a person's interest.
I like to think that, during the initial phases at least, I treat people respectfully and kindly. I would also describe myself as fiercely loyal to the folks I manage to stay close to, although I suppose I might pessimistically allow that this could be because I value them precisely for their relative rarity, rather than for any quality they themselves possess.
While I certainly appreciate the compliment, I do not think that intelligence -- or lack thereof -- factors into my reaction to people, at least not heavily. After my former fiancee, I dated another woman I eventually grew to love fairly deeply, and she was wholly unremarkable in terms of intellect.
That's a pretty hefty dose of rationalization and self-contradiction. Emotionally healthy people do not put friends and romantic partners through a battery of tests designed to prove their worthiness, and they don't try to force them away once it's established.
It's good that you tell people beforehand about this, but it's also problematic for several reasons. Not only do some people indeed take it as a challenge, it's too easy to tell yourself, "Well, she knew what she was in for when we started this relationship" and keep doing what you're doing. Until you've learned to like yourself a bit better, you really shouldn't be in a relationship at all.
Every time I get into that mode of "Oh, man lets just let this person have it." or I start pushing someone towards an argument? I just press the ol' pause button, tell them to hold up and I change the subject or go be alone for a minute.
Saying you don't realize it is coming is not accepting the blame. I know sometimes I'm not the one to start a fight, but I know that I can choose to keep it going as long as possible or until I take a breath and let it pass.
Another situation we seem to share is judging people before we know them. Not much to do about this one aside from give people a shot. Try giving people a fair shake to see if you can stand them. Best case scenario you've got a great new friend, worst case is you don't like them all that much and you can let it fade out.
You have probably hit on something with the disliking myself, however. As I've said, I think that I am a pretty decent person to know, when you take away the withering abuse I subject some people to; I am well aware of the many things I have going for me. But there might very well be a subconscious undercurrent of dislike for myself, running underneath all this.
The problem is that this effectively deflects responsibility onto the person I'm essentially victimizing. My behavior is not their fault, and ideally, they should not be required to participate in its prevention. Still, it's the only method I've yet employed to any result.
As for judging folks, I don't generally do that. I am surprisingly non-judgmental, honestly. The issue is less a matter of impression than it is one of, as mully mentions, simplly starting with a "negative slate"; with me, people generally start in the hole, and have to climb out.
Or do you just choose to ignore that?
I'm also curious as to what DR has asked - do you feel like you might be choosing to ignore it when you're in "the heat of the moment" where your attitude is declining rapidly? It really isn't so hard to come back later, either, and apologize - if you aren't too proud, that is.
I'd also like a better idea of how you mean that you're saying vile things to people. I mean, are we talking full out cuss-words and slander to their face, or are we talking like "Your skirt is ugly"?
I find that hard to believe, though I don't doubt your sincerity. You're clearly intelligent enough to recognise when someone would be uncomfortable or struggling to keep up. It could be that you see the reactions you inspire and they just reinforce what I'm reading as misanthropy or contempt.
It seems like you rig these conversational 'sparring matches' so that no one else could win. You don't get emotionally wound up, but you're happy to prod others into reacting in an emotional - rather than intellectual - way. You might wind up frustrated when you're not paired up with an intellectual equal who could just supress that bothersome emotional stuff and get on with the serious business of arguing!
Beats me.
But if that stuff is happening only after your relationships are on the rocks, then I don't know. What kind of disquiet are you sowing, exactly, and how are you sowing it?
See what I said in my last post. I don't generally realize what I am doing until long after the fact. My behaviors appear to be buttressed by strong -- if ultimately dishonest or illogical -- rationalization on my part, so that most of the time, what I am doing seems perfectly fair and reasonable in the moment.
It depends, but I would say it's generally far worse than the options you provide. My former fiancee, for example, was very sensitive about her relationship with the father of her child, and I constantly provoked her with regards to him, casting her behavior with him as unfairly and insultingly submissive, even though I knew that she had admirable backbone and was very vulnerable as regarded the sort of implication I was making. A more specific example would be a time when we discussed her previous career, handling national asylum cases, tidbits of which I used to paint her as a racist, even though she was both not.
I also make extremely hurtful comments to friends, apropos of nothing. In one of the cases mentioned in the OP, my friend mentioned that she wished she lived closer to me, to which I responded that I was glad we couldn't hang out all that often, because I would probably get sick of her.
If you do tell people, do you also ask them to tell you when you're doing it? If you have, do they tell you? And if they tell you, what's your reaction/how do you treat it?
Whether or not they oblige me differs, but as I said, the problem with this is that it makes the other person responsible for my behavior, which is not fair.
To answer the rest of your question, however, I have no problem at all stopping when I'm made aware of what I'm doing. Because I can easily disengage myself from more or less any argument, I don't struggle with putting the brakes on when someone tells me to stop.
This may come across as terribly arrogant, but whether or not I win an argument is no longer important to me. I am confident enough in my faculties that the only concern I have is whether or not I've performed well. To put it another way, I only really measure myself against myself. In addition, I would say that I am not generally frustrated by a dearth of "intellectual equals"; I have many clever friends, and ultimately, I am not quite so arrogant as I might seem.
I know you said that you would like to be able to have one, but from reading your words.. it sounds like you are unwilling to babysit yourself moreso to achieve that desire. You've also expressed that you are able to separate emotions completely when getting into debates (or insulting/attacking your friends) - in another thread, Thanatos suggested to someone that they set a timer every half-an-hour to ask themselves, "Am I still having fun?". Maybe a similar idea might be good for you, when you are hanging out with your friends - "Am I still considering their feelings?" may be a better phrase for you. Maybe it's what it would take for you to stop and reassess what's going on - an interruption for your drilling.
Also, I'd like to reiterate that I do not mistreat most folks that I don't like. It's something I seem to reserve for people whose company or goodwill I particularly value.
What you say about friendships is pretty much precisely how things are for me. Most peripheral acquaintances and friends are people I associate with because, as you say, it's "what people do".
And here in lies a problem. You aren't friends with people because you want to be you are friends because it's what society expects of you. People you value are more just objects that you happen to like a little better than most, that still doesn't make you have any connection to them. It's like friends are a social accesory you sometimes use when going out into the world.
You may be able to find a support group for like-minded people - I would search in your area/ask a therapist - there is likely a name for this issue but I'm not sure what it is. The best I can figure from as little as I know is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder -- but you would have to read that for yourself and see if any of those other items apply to you. From all I know so far, I can see more than one in there - and obviously, putting a name to something isn't a solution - but it may give you more of an idea of where to go / what to do / what to say. Again, not a therapist, far from it, just a concerned internet citizen.
My one consolation is that I am capable of forming strong, emotional bonds with friends and lovers. Granted, those relationships, and my corresponding habit of undermining them, are the reason I originally made this thread. As for the far more numerous peripheral friends and acquaintances, yes, I associate with them mainly because I am expected to, and I have to fight the urge to look at them as tools I use as conveyance for entertainment or amusement, or variables in a sort of personal pleasure balance sheet. While I realize this is unpleasant, I generally manage to restrain myself from the sorts of destructive episodes I subject loved ones to, as I've said.
You sound extremely clinical about both your self-destructive relationships and how you treat casual acquaintances like nonentities. This is a problem in itself, and fairly creepy. I mean, no one wants you to throw a huge, weepy tantrum over how cruel you've been, and you obviously were concerned enough to make a thread, but reading your posts, I get a really...disconnected feeling. Does your behavior ever feel wrong to you once you're aware of it, or do you just know it's not acceptable?
For what it's worth, no, my behavior rarely -- if ever -- feels wrong. I generally just realize that it's unacceptable and modify it. I would much rather feel guilt or shame for poor behavior, but I do not blame myself for my lack of either. I would like to change it, but it is no more my fault than are the colors of my hair or my eyes.
I can control only the behavior. I cannot change where it comes from.