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Weight Discrimination?
Lux
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Didn't see a thread for 3 or four pages, so...
I've been thinking a lot about sizism/weight discrimination and wondering what people thought about prejudice against fat people.
You might have heard about Kevin Smith being kicked off of a flight on Southwest Airlines for being too big (even though he did fit.) This isn't about that incident and who was right, but mostly about size restrictions/policies. This kind of thing happens a lot on a lot of airlines; fat folks are usually asked to buy two seats, and sometimes they're even reimbursed. In the worst cases, they are taken off of planes after having already been seated. Kevin Smith said this about his incident: "I'm a fat person, we navigate the world differently than other people, we have to think ten steps in advance for our dignity."
But I'm not really interested about talking about that case. Smith is rich, has a lot of luxuries to fall back on, I get it. But here's a lot of people like him that go through similar situations that don't have fame/an audience/money to help. It just got me thinking.
I'm a skinny guy, I've been skinny for my whole life, and I can't imagine what it's like to weigh more than 130 pounds. I can't imagine how embarrassing it would be to have to make that long walk off of a plane because you were asked to leave, or pulled aside and asked to buy another seat, or being restricted from anything because it just doesn't fit you. I don't have to go through the world wondering if I fit here, or if this store carries my size, or what people assume about me.
It's easy to say, "It's their fault for being fat/lazy/indulgent." Almost too easy. But there's heredity, metabolism, emotional factors, and, yeah, sometimes it's just hard to get over your bad habits, like drugs, alcohol, and food.
But then again, is championing someone's right to be fat and/or unhealthy counterproductive to ending obesity epidemics? Is it standing up for the fat people who have to live with public shame and prejudice, or are we just attaching unnecessary importance to some hurt feelings people have?
I can't make it analogous to racism because this is something that, at least to some degree, the individual has some degree of control over it. I think. But surely there's got to be a better way than making big people feel less than human.
Is it okay for flights to have size restrictions? Or should they just make seats more accommodating for all shapes & sizes? Do we as a society just enjoy shitting on fat people more than we should?
I've been thinking a lot about sizism/weight discrimination and wondering what people thought about prejudice against fat people.
You might have heard about Kevin Smith being kicked off of a flight on Southwest Airlines for being too big (even though he did fit.) This isn't about that incident and who was right, but mostly about size restrictions/policies. This kind of thing happens a lot on a lot of airlines; fat folks are usually asked to buy two seats, and sometimes they're even reimbursed. In the worst cases, they are taken off of planes after having already been seated. Kevin Smith said this about his incident: "I'm a fat person, we navigate the world differently than other people, we have to think ten steps in advance for our dignity."
But I'm not really interested about talking about that case. Smith is rich, has a lot of luxuries to fall back on, I get it. But here's a lot of people like him that go through similar situations that don't have fame/an audience/money to help. It just got me thinking.
I'm a skinny guy, I've been skinny for my whole life, and I can't imagine what it's like to weigh more than 130 pounds. I can't imagine how embarrassing it would be to have to make that long walk off of a plane because you were asked to leave, or pulled aside and asked to buy another seat, or being restricted from anything because it just doesn't fit you. I don't have to go through the world wondering if I fit here, or if this store carries my size, or what people assume about me.
It's easy to say, "It's their fault for being fat/lazy/indulgent." Almost too easy. But there's heredity, metabolism, emotional factors, and, yeah, sometimes it's just hard to get over your bad habits, like drugs, alcohol, and food.
But then again, is championing someone's right to be fat and/or unhealthy counterproductive to ending obesity epidemics? Is it standing up for the fat people who have to live with public shame and prejudice, or are we just attaching unnecessary importance to some hurt feelings people have?
I can't make it analogous to racism because this is something that, at least to some degree, the individual has some degree of control over it. I think. But surely there's got to be a better way than making big people feel less than human.
Is it okay for flights to have size restrictions? Or should they just make seats more accommodating for all shapes & sizes? Do we as a society just enjoy shitting on fat people more than we should?
Lux on
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So no, I don't see a problem with "weight discrimination".
In any case, who makes the call that you're too fat to ride on the plane and need a second seat or whatever? What are the "requirements" that need to be met? They don't just weigh people before they get on flights or buy a ticket, so someone has to look at you, decide you're a fat ass, and make you pay more money.
I myself have struggled with weight over the years. I went from 240ish down to 180ish and now I'm back up to 240ish, and will be making an effort to get back down and stay down. I'm not exactly to the point where I'll have problems with my weight, outside of going to a store and having difficulties finding pants that fit. =\
As far as flights having restrictions, is that OK? Well, I don't know. Given that the average American is overweight these days, they should probably consider making the seats just a bit wider to accommodate this. I haven't flown since I was like 8 years old, so I can't make the call, but I would assume that having to ride next to a 500+ pound person would be very uncomfortable.
Surely that logically you then support public humiliation of drug addicts, victims of domestic abuse and failed suicide attempts? These people all had the power to prevent what happened to them yet didn't.
Chances are good that they also have some underlying psychological reason for it, similarly to how I'd wager most fat people don't just really love food.
Would you find it reasonable if someone threw a shit-fit on a plane because they had to sit next to a goth, and that made them uncomfortable?
But isn't it true that some people have to work way harder to maintain an average weight that comes easier to non-fat people? I imagine it must be heart-wrenching to put so much effort to keep weight off but still have to deal with society's attitude towards your size.
The other side of this is that the average American size shouldn't be encouraged.
I think it's hilarious that anyone would ever assume society encourages people to be fat and too many accommodations are made for fat people.
It's worth noting that most people who are obese to the point of being functionally disabled in some way (or who need two seats on planes) are almost always that way because of legitimate medical issues, not because they love burger king more than life itself. Discrimination is ugly no matter who's doing it. On the other hand I don't think it's really fair to put the "obese people on flights" on the same footing with other forms of discrimination (even against the obese.)
edit:
yeah, but "average american size," less than ideal though it is, is pretty fucking far from "needing two seats on an airplane."
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
If they are invading my space, then yes, I could see a point. I am not for total public shaming, but if they are told they cannot fly because they would either A) pose a safety hazard or
Should guys who spread their legs like their balls are the size of pumpkins have to buy two bus tickets? Cause they cause me discomfort, but they don't really garner the same level of ire.
Society doesn't necessarily encourage people to be fat, but they sure as hell make it easy. Any street you drive down, except for residential ones, will probably have tons of fast food restaurants here and there. McDonalds, Burger King, Hardees/Carl Jr, Krystal/White Castle, Wendy's, Arby's, Taco Bell, and it goes on. None of these places are healthy or good for you. Subway may be the only fast food place you can get a decent healthy meal at. But you can also make it pretty non-healthy with all the condiments they offer.
There's no fast-food restaurant that serves strictly healthy food because there's no market for it. People don't really give a shit to get healthy food when it comes to that. People that do care to eat healthy make the extra effort to do so. They go home and cook and they buy food from the store specifically to be healthy or eat a certain way.
We (western types) live in a world that's almost explicitly designed to make us unhealthily tubby, all in the name of making more money*, so shitting on fat people isn't terribly cool. Its especially not cool in an airline context, since airline seats are designed to not fit anyone who is over 'average' even when they're not fat - ask tall people about flying, for instance. Hell, I'm a thinnish 5'8" and I find economy seats uncomfortable.
But fat 'acceptance' does present a problem to me, because it basically states that the feelings of people who really can't lose weight at all (for the various legitimate reasons that do exist, skinny haters) are more important than the health of people who are not "naturally" large but got there through poor food knowledge, eating for emotional comfort, alcohol abuse, injury, simple inattention, and basic fucking poverty.
Counter to that is the absolute fact that being particularly thin is not necessarily a signal of health - plenty of super-skinny people have terribad cholesterol, blood pressure and other, less visible measures of real health. Plenty of chubby-looking people have much better stats than their stick-insect associates. Body fat, in short, is not an absolute measure of health by any means.
Basically, the way we judge the health of others needs to be divorced from its current expression as a signal of having enough spare time and money to "indulge" in maintaining one's body.
*if you don't believe me, go tell your boss tomorrow that you need a couple of half hour breaks during your 8-hour cubicle shift to go stretch and have a jog. Let me know how that goes for you. And if by chance they do let you out of your cage, see if you can find a healthy meal within a half hours walk of work. Try not to get run over while you're searching.
300lbs is obese. This doesn't change just because a growing number of people are in even worse shape.
This is worth watching
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
It's obese, but not overly obese. Probably not the best phrase to use, but basically I don't see his fat rolls flopping over the arm rests into the other seat disturbing the person next to him.
It took for fucking forever it seemed just to get the plant he works in to build the 777 let alone actually get them up in the air. Just simply pulling out the seats and sticking in some bigger ones would take a huge amount of time and money. I've been to the plant, not only is it huge but it's full of so much necessary crap that there is literally no room in that particular place to do the necessary bits to change the planes for fat people. It's basically ridiculous, where on earth are we going to find a plant that can support the thousands of planes that would be grounded for alterations? And then you gotta change the planes that are currently being built and then alter the plans for planes that are to be built next.
I can't even imagine the shitstorm the unions would have, they can't even get their bus service to agree for two seconds.
We should be spending that time and money trying to solve the obesity problem instead. It would take billions and billions of dollars and at least 5 years to fix the planes. Hell probably more like a decade.
And that's just aircraft! What about trains and buses and everything else that would need adjustment?
Not that weight discrimination is awesome, no one deserves public humiliation. What they go through is unacceptable. But I really don't think we should be spending those resources to change what we have now for the obese when we could be trying to help them instead. I really can't offer any suggestions for a solution to help curb obesity aside from education, and its certainly not going to go away so long as people are making money out of their health problems like what The Cat said.
Well you could change a few planes but then you would have special fat people planes and it wouldn't solve anything in the long run.
I remember watching a bit, I think from a news show, where this woman was telling the reporter that she has to spend nearly an hour on commute just to get to a decent grocery store that sells real food like vegetables and fruit that isn't from a syrupy can. Also it showed just how many food sources they had and it was depressing how many fast food joints and gas stations there were compared to grocery stores. Entire neighborhoods did not have so much as a single Safeway. I wish I could remember where I saw this.
Will 'overly obese' one day become acceptable too, and we'll have to think of another term for the most overweight of us?
Obesity - not over obesity - is the number one killer in America today, and is a disease caused almost entirely by ignorance; ignorance of how the human body works, ignorance of what makes up the food that we eat, and ignorance of how to cook for oneself and dependants.
Its all really just a symptom of the way our society encourages sedentary lifestyles of mostly-work plus a dash of substance-abuse to dull the pain. With food as one of the substances.
Now you're arguing something for what? The sake of argument. My point in noting Kevin Smith not being overly obese has to do with the fact that he was removed from a plane. I was questioning the reasoning for this. To me, he doesn't seem so obese that this would be necessary, which is why I ask how big he really is because 300 pounds does not seem like a weight to say is "too fat to fly".
I was not arguing his health. So your whole post above; pointless.
The intent of the policy isn't evil. I think we can all understand it'd be very unpleasant to spend a long flight crammed into half a seat because the person next to you is overly large for the seat. Having such a policy isn't the bad part.
The bad part here is that the policy is solely and unappealably up to the gate staff who don't have any more guidelines than we do. If they specified a maximum weight or widest point of girth or even had demo seats in the terminal it'd be something but they have none of these things. I know the Consumerist has repeatedly had stories of people who would routinely fly SW until one day, at random, they had "become" too big in the eyes of the gate staff. It's capricious.
You know, the discussion as a whole. Not just your one post.
Especially since there was apparently a larger dude on the flight who wasn't booted. Airline people suck.
Planes suck, I'm not as tall as you are, I'm only 5 foot 4. But the last time I was on a plane, I as a kid and I remember how tiny the seats felt.
They're not going to make the seats bigger for anyone for any reason, it's one size fits all.
And most Airline staff I know tend to be very pleasant, but are overworked and extremely hassled during their day-to-days.
Unfortunately for your opinion, there are medical conditions that attribute to increased weight gain and difficult to manage weight conditions / loss.
However I was questioning whether or not Kevin Smith is big enough to fit the whole "Hey fatty, get off the plane" incident that he went through. What precisely is the point in which someone is judged. I was merely pointing out that Kevin Smith is not someone that I would look at and say, he's too fat to fly. Yeah, the guy is fat. He knows it and he writes it in his movies and it's cool that he can joke about it. I admire that about him.
Yes, 300 is obese, but my question is still, which hasn't been answered, is that the point in which someone needs to get 2 seats or be removed from a flight. Will Kevin Smith really be disturbing the passenger next to him with his obesity seeping into their seat causing their flight to be uncomfortable?
That said, as a fat guy, I really can't be too upset at the whole having to buy 2 seats thing. Every seat is money, effectively, and if a flight is looking like it will be pretty crowded, I really can't find it unreasonable. But if a flight isn't crowded, it would strike me as pretty asinine.
LoL: failboattootoot
1. Their cut-off for having to buy two seats is 17 inches width, i.e. the width between lowered armrests on their seats.
2. Smith had bought two tickets (as he is required to) for his flight.
3. He wanted to leave on an earlier flight and was waiting on stand-by. The flight he attempted to board had only one vacant seat, not two.
4. He wasn't dragged off the plane, he was prohibited from boarding.
Not according to the way he tells the story on his smodcast. He buys two seats because they're dirt cheap and he likes the luxury of not having to sit next to people. He was already seated and asked to leave, and on his later flight, he witnessed them almost do the same thing to a girl next to him.
Which is kind of tangential but kind of also ties into the fat acceptance thing, because its only in the last decade or so that we've seen retail fashion start to cater for big-and-talls beyond providing muumuus in more than one colour. I don't believe that wanting to look nice, or professional, while fat is something that should be discouraged, but I guarantee that there will be people coming in here and declaring it a bridge too far because letting fat people wear nice suits just doesn't allow for enough delicious shaming.
This is as much a problem as declaring morbid obesity to be okay, which the 'healthy at any size' concept basically does. Many sizes I can go with, but not 'any'.
And maybe that's the bottom line; people are taking on the notion that actual obesity is bad but then overapplying that to anyone who's even a bit squishy round the middle.
This post states he was already seated between two passengers. Now it's probably not the most reliable source, but it was the first result that came up with searching Google for the incident.
Edit:
Found it funny he said he doesn't embarrass easily (thank you Jersey Girl training).
I've put on a ton of weight because of my bipolar medications. I've also been told by a doctor that I should consider going off the medications that stops a disorder which leaves me veering between suicide and uncontrollable mania because I would be thin and 'boys won't like you!'
Our society is so fucked up in how we think about weight and food.
I don't remember an episode where that table had a single green thing on it. Why don't we have something like this on basic cable?
Food courses need to be required. We can try to change the size of things but nothing's going to work like education.
Most of the other stories I recall involve the local staff of budget airlines, specifically Virgin Blue and Jetstar.