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Sid Meier's Civilization V - Game disks MUST be tossed. Salad optional.

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Posts

  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Could someone tell me the pros and cons of square tiles vs. Hexes?

    Cause I'm having trouble seeing any major difference between one and the other.

    Also, considering that Civ 4 is somehow, someway, taking time away from Mass Effect 2, the idea of this coming out is a bit frightining.

    Foefaller on
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  • chipmanchipman Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Could someone tell me the pros and cons of square tiles vs. Hexes?

    Cause I'm having trouble seeing any major difference between one and the other.

    Also, considering that Civ 4 is somehow, someway, taking time away from Mass Effect 2, the idea of this coming out is a bit frightining.

    Basically a hex grid leads to "fair" movement.

    For example, in a square grid you can go at diagonals every turn whilst you explore and you will cover more terrain in the same number of turns as you would going in a straight line. The only way to deal with this problem is
    1) Disallow diagonal movement
    2) Apply some sort of cost on diagonal movement (1.41x straight movement)
    3) Use a hex grid

    chipman on
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  • MachismoMachismo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Millbuddah wrote: »
    Shens wrote: »
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I hope they get Leonard Nimoy to narrate the game again. Otherwise this product will be inferior.

    Beep...Beep...Beep.

    You know, I'd be perfectly happy to have Morgan Freeman narrate this time, then somehow merge the two sets of soundfiles into pure audio sex that pours out from your speakers every time you discover a tech.
    Red wrote:
    I wish I could tell you that the French fought the good fight, and the Mayans let them be. I wish I could tell you that - but Civilization is no fairy-tale world. They never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile - Civilization consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, the French would show up with fresh bruises. The Mayans kept at them- sometimes they were able to fight 'em off, sometimes not. And that's how it went for the French - that was their routine. I do believe those first two centuries were the worst for them, and I also believe that if things had gone on that way, this place would have got the best of them.

    Machismo on
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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Could someone tell me the pros and cons of square tiles vs. Hexes?

    Cause I'm having trouble seeing any major difference between one and the other.

    Also, considering that Civ 4 is somehow, someway, taking time away from Mass Effect 2, the idea of this coming out is a bit frightining.

    In truth, there really aren't all that many differences.
    1. Squares give you 8 possible directions of movement; hexes give 6.
    2. Squares allow you to move in straight lines at all times; hexes require some back-and-forth / zig-zag movement along certain (cardinal) directions.
    3. Squares have an uneven distance moving diagonally vs. cardinally, requiring odd counting schemes (e.g., moving diagonally costs 1-2-1-2, etc.) or making diagonal movement "faster" than horizontal; hexes are all exactly 1 hex regardless of direction.
    4. Accordingly, squares handle circles approximately (e.g., the BFC); hexes handle circles well
    5. Squares let you surround a guy with 8 units; hexes limit you to 6.
    6. Squares do formations (e.g., a phalanx) really well; hexes don't do that as well.

    Anything you want to do in squares you can do in hexes, and vice versa, so long as you don't mind a bit of rounding. Generally, it comes down to aesthetics as to which you prefer.

    Elvenshae on
  • ArkanArkan Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Over long distances squares aren't as accurate. If you move a unit 25 tiles east then it winds up in the same y column as if you moved it 25 tiles northeast diagonally or 25 tiles southeast diagonally.

    Arkan on
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  • XiaNaphryzXiaNaphryz Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    Sid Meier needs to stop being a silly goose and make Alpha Centauri 2. That game is only about 15 years overdue.

    Alpha Centauri's an EA IP, Firaxis works with 2K. In the meantime, there's a nifty Civ IV Alpha Centauri mod out therep.
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Could someone tell me the pros and cons of square tiles vs. Hexes?

    Cause I'm having trouble seeing any major difference between one and the other.

    Also, considering that Civ 4 is somehow, someway, taking time away from Mass Effect 2, the idea of this coming out is a bit frightining.

    In truth, there really aren't all that many differences.
    1. Squares give you 8 possible directions of movement; hexes give 6.
    2. Squares allow you to move in straight lines at all times; hexes require some back-and-forth / zig-zag movement along certain (cardinal) directions.
    3. Squares have an uneven distance moving diagonally vs. cardinally, requiring odd counting schemes (e.g., moving diagonally costs 1-2-1-2, etc.) or making diagonal movement "faster" than horizontal; hexes are all exactly 1 hex regardless of direction.
    4. Accordingly, squares handle circles approximately (e.g., the BFC); hexes handle circles well
    5. Squares let you surround a guy with 8 units; hexes limit you to 6.
    6. Squares do formations (e.g., a phalanx) really well; hexes don't do that as well.

    Anything you want to do in squares you can do in hexes, and vice versa, so long as you don't mind a bit of rounding. Generally, it comes down to aesthetics as to which you prefer.

    Hexes will also make it easier to make a true global map and make the polar regions a bit more accurate.

    XiaNaphryz on
  • FatsFats Corvallis, ORRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Machismo wrote: »
    Red wrote:
    I wish I could tell you that the French fought the good fight, and the Mayans let them be. I wish I could tell you that - but Civilization is no fairy-tale world. They never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile - Civilization consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, the French would show up with fresh bruises. The Mayans kept at them- sometimes they were able to fight 'em off, sometimes not. And that's how it went for the French - that was their routine. I do believe those first two centuries were the worst for them, and I also believe that if things had gone on that way, this place would have got the best of them.

    Yessss.

    Fats on
  • TagTag Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    chipman wrote: »
    Foefaller wrote: »
    Could someone tell me the pros and cons of square tiles vs. Hexes?

    Cause I'm having trouble seeing any major difference between one and the other.

    Also, considering that Civ 4 is somehow, someway, taking time away from Mass Effect 2, the idea of this coming out is a bit frightining.

    Basically a hex grid leads to "fair" movement.

    For example, in a square grid you can go at diagonals every turn whilst you explore and you will cover more terrain in the same number of turns as you would going in a straight line. The only way to deal with this problem is
    1) Disallow diagonal movement
    2) Apply some sort of cost on diagonal movement (1.41x straight movement)
    3) Use a hex grid

    Well... Hexes impose that cost when trying to move in the direction of one of its points (most noticeably on the "North-South" movement). The only real advantage is they don't have to track that movement penalty as a fractional variable so its easier to immediately understand.

    Hexes also mean you have to defend from fewer directions which seems like it could be very important in the system they are hinting at.

    Tag on
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  • silburnlsilburnl Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Hmmm verrrry interesting. Thanks be to the ancestors* that this is the year I've decided to upgrade our 'puters at home.

    Graphics in the screencaps look pretty although I'm not especially happy with how the river looks (no estuary at the sea?). I like the large formation animations they're going for with for the military units though, that gives it a nice 'mass warfare' look.

    It'll be interesting to see how culture spread has been tweaked, from those 'caps it doesn't seem to be uniform (assuming the red/yellow line is a culture border of course).

    I'm not too fussed either way about the changes to warfare - the current setup is pretty schematic and somewhat wonky for sure, but warfare shouldn't be a dominating part of the game IMO so I'd be down on changes that increased the ratio of time warfare uses in the game. Changes that added some more credible strategic/logistical considerations without making warmongering take for ever would be cool however.

    No more BFC is kind of a shame, but hexes are fine and they give lovely callbacks to boardgames and such (although we're exchanging diagonal movement wonkiness for hex-grain wonkiness, which might become an issue if stuff like stacking limits or frontage concepts are introduced).



    [*] We're Confucians in the semidemocratic Civ4 LP Enlightenedbum is running ATM

    silburnl on
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  • Lars_DomusLars_Domus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Fats wrote: »
    Machismo wrote: »
    Red wrote:
    I wish I could tell you that the French fought the good fight, and the Mayans let them be. I wish I could tell you that - but Civilization is no fairy-tale world. They never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile - Civilization consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, the French would show up with fresh bruises. The Mayans kept at them- sometimes they were able to fight 'em off, sometimes not. And that's how it went for the French - that was their routine. I do believe those first two centuries were the worst for them, and I also believe that if things had gone on that way, this place would have got the best of them.

    Yessss.

    Bravo! :^:

    Lars_Domus on
  • TaminTamin Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I can't preorder this yet. I'm confused, don't they want my money?

    Tamin on
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Guys, I think you're missing the biggest change about hexes.

    It'll make it easier to place your cities without overlapping squa...hexes and less unused space. (Assuming that the farmable area around your city is, say, 2 movement instead of the fat cross.)

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
  • UrQuanLord88UrQuanLord88 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Catancatancatanlolincroamingrobberinthedesert

    I forsee the future:
    The Egyptian AI contacts you: Greetings! Do you have any sheep? How about some brick? Two wheat and one wood for that stone? Will you declare war against the foul long road'ed Greek?

    Why do I recall that Civ III's initial release had more content than Civ 4's initial release? Or am I remembering that wrong? I hope they don't simplify the game play with this new iteration.

    EDIT: Also, the map looks less dense than Civ 4.
    Kotaku says there will be new combat mechanics http://kotaku.com/5474750/civilization-v-hexes-pcs-this-fall
    but it might just be opinion, lol

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  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The thing about squares vs. hexes is that the whole 4v8 way thing for squares is kind of inconsistent across games, as well as for different functionality of a single game. Hexes eliminate that inconsistency. It's 6 sides for everything.

    SageinaRage on
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  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Looking at that map too, it looks like they're trying to make the landscape a bit more natural, but I hope that they can make it more clear (maybe in an overlay) which tiles are, say, river tiles and such.

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
  • TagTag Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Guys, I think you're missing the biggest change about hexes.

    It'll make it easier to place your cities without overlapping squa...hexes and less unused space. (Assuming that the farmable area around your city is, say, 2 movement instead of the fat cross.)

    What? Assuming its a "circle" of hexes around a city, it will be much much harder with much more overlap and unused space. Fat Crosses roughly tessellate in many configurations, hex circles do not do it well at all.

    Tag on
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  • quarthinosquarthinos Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Um. A hex of radius 2 is a hex... Which tessellates. Fat crosses do NOT tessellate. you either have to leave little 2x2 bits at the corners, or you have to overlap at the edges.


    Sorry to jump on you so quick about this, but it's been one of my peeves since Civ 1 that I can't use EVERY SQUARE IN THE WORLD without overlap.

    quarthinos on
  • eobeteobet 8-bit childhood SwedenRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Glorious hexagons!

    Time to start praying for a native OS X version!

    eobet on
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  • EddieDeanEddieDean Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    No matter how much people bicker about the best FPS's, RPG's, etc., one thing can almost be heralded as an objective truth

    When it comes to PC turn based strategy games, Civilization is King

    EddieDean on
  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Thoughts in this order

    1. G4 the feed, scroll scroll scroll, all this I don't care about aw crap! Civ 5 is coming, I am going to buy it and have fun.D:

    2. ah, here is the civ thread, HOT DAMN! There are hexes!

    3. If there are hexes, I wonder if mods will become better as well?

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • RainbowDespairRainbowDespair Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I just got a new computer & apparently getting Civ IV to work on Windows 7 is a pain. This news eases the pain greatly.

    RainbowDespair on
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    quarthinos wrote: »
    Um. A hex of radius 2 is a hex... Which tessellates. Fat crosses do NOT tessellate. you either have to leave little 2x2 bits at the corners, or you have to overlap at the edges.


    Sorry to jump on you so quick about this, but it's been one of my peeves since Civ 1 that I can't use EVERY SQUARE IN THE WORLD without overlap.

    Ok, thanks for confirming this. I actually just spent the last 5 minutes doodling to convince myself that this is the case. Edit: was being silly about the rhombus thing.

    And yeah, fat crosses don't tessellate at all.

    On the other hand, I'd like to know what Tag is smoking, 'cause that must be some good stuff. :)

    chrono_traveller on
    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
  • TagTag Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    quarthinos wrote: »
    Um. A hex of radius 2 is a hex... Which tessellates. Fat crosses do NOT tessellate. you either have to leave little 2x2 bits at the corners, or you have to overlap at the edges.


    Sorry to jump on you so quick about this, but it's been one of my peeves since Civ 1 that I can't use EVERY SQUARE IN THE WORLD without overlap.

    Ah that two, I was counting the center hex for some reason. /facepalm

    Though I still find the hex circle harder to harder to visualize when mentally laying out an empire. Additionally, a fat cross is 20 squares while a 2 radius hex is 18 so every single hex city is "losing" two resource squares from the start. Overlapping fat crosses are also really a non-issue since it takes forever for a city to be able to work all 20 tiles anyway, especially with specialists.

    Edit: And I said roughly tessellate because for every 4 cities you lose only a handful of squares (3 or 4 depending on configuration) which probably are nothing special anyway. Or you can overlap and only have 2 squares lost. Meanwhile 4 hex cities perfectly tessellated as described start you 8 down no matter what. And how often do you get to do perfect tessellation anyway? This seems like a non issue but I still think the fat cross is at the advantage in it aside from, perhaps, theoretical aesthetics.

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  • MachismoMachismo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Catancatancatanlolincroamingrobberinthedesert

    I forsee the future:
    The Egyptian AI contacts you: Greetings! Do you have any sheep? How about some brick? Two wheat and one wood for that stone? Will you declare war against the foul long road'ed Greek?

    Why do I recall that Civ III's initial release had more content than Civ 4's initial release? Or am I remembering that wrong? I hope they don't simplify the game play with this new iteration.

    EDIT: Also, the map looks less dense than Civ 4.
    Kotaku says there will be new combat mechanics http://kotaku.com/5474750/civilization-v-hexes-pcs-this-fall
    but it might just be opinion, lol

    Civ 3's culture borders were just awful. Exploitable and broken, frankly. They had resources that never seemed balanced with that pointless colony system (build a colony on a resource outside your culture borders, except someone could just build a city and take it away.

    Civ 4 was far better. Better tech tree. Better graphics. Better wonders. Great People. Religion to add some fun to the culture game. It went from a war game to being a game themed on civilizations.
    Civ 3 was basically the low point in the series. Civ 4 the high (although Civ 2 was a close second).

    Machismo on
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  • bsjezzbsjezz Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I just got a new computer & apparently getting Civ IV to work on Windows 7 is a pain. This news eases the pain greatly.

    i've been running it on windows 7 without a hitch

    bsjezz on
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  • LitanyLitany Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I'd argue Civ3 introduced too many new elements and didn't really nail everything down on the first go but it was a fresh start on the series. Civ4 improved almost everything across the board and trickled new stuff in here and there. In my opinion Civ2 is simply a better Civ1, as Civ4 is to Civ3.

    Is there a mod or option to make automated workers not overturn player created improvements [in Civ4]? The worker bog is the only thing I don't truly care for and yet it's an incredibly important feature to the game and tests my patience playing on the higher difficulty levels.

    Litany on
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  • JutranjoJutranjo Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Litany wrote: »
    I'd argue Civ3 introduced too many new elements and didn't really nail everything down on the first go but it was a fresh start on the series. Civ4 improved almost everything across the board and trickled new stuff in here and there. In my opinion Civ2 is simply a better Civ1, as Civ4 is to Civ3.

    Is there a mod or option to make automated workers not overturn player created improvements [in Civ4]? The worker bog is the only thing I don't truly care for and yet it's an incredibly important feature to the game and tests my patience playing on the higher difficulty levels.

    In the Settings/Options you tick [ ] Workers leave current improvements. Also you can tick off to leave forests alone.

    Jutranjo on
  • DoronronDoronron Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Civ4's got that as a gameplay option standard, I recall.

    Of fuck. I was holding off until Blizzard announced D3's system specs, but it's looking like I'll be putting together a new computer a bit sooner than that.

    Got to have this running day one on full settings out of my 42" TV and speakers.

    Doronron on
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Tag wrote: »
    This seems like a non issue but I still think the fat cross is at the advantage in it aside from, perhaps, theoretical aesthetics.

    I made an overstated claim (the biggest?) about a tiny aspect of the game, and you're taking it like it was a serious point. I was just saying that it would be possible to tessellate the map with cities. I made no claim about practicality of doing so.

    chrono_traveller on
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  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2010
    :(

    I loved Civ 3.

    Sheep on
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Better mods than ffh2

    mrt144 on
  • quarthinosquarthinos Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Tag wrote: »
    quarthinos wrote: »
    Um. A hex of radius 2 is a hex... Which tessellates. Fat crosses do NOT tessellate. you either have to leave little 2x2 bits at the corners, or you have to overlap at the edges.


    Sorry to jump on you so quick about this, but it's been one of my peeves since Civ 1 that I can't use EVERY SQUARE IN THE WORLD without overlap.

    Ah that two, I was counting the center hex for some reason. /facepalm

    Though I still find the hex circle harder to harder to visualize when mentally laying out an empire.

    It makes you think a bit differently, but I went and got a hex grid online and was able to figure it out without too much difficulty. (Your cities don't end up lined up on the grid rows like with squares, but they can be used as vertexes in a hex grid, just rotated from the one the game displays.)
    Litany wrote: »
    Is there a mod or option to make automated workers not overturn player created improvements [in Civ4]?

    Yes. It's in the options dialog. Allow workers to improve over existing improvements or something.


    Edit: And I really need to learn to type faster :(

    quarthinos on
  • LitanyLitany Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    It's... in the options, eh? Well then, I'll see you all in the fall for a bit. Does the alarm system work on a monthly basis? :P

    Litany on
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  • DoronronDoronron Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Sheep wrote: »
    :(

    I loved Civ 3.

    It was alright. I couldn't go back to Civ2 after Civ3. Too many new features. Then again, I couldn't go back to Civ3 after Civ4. I expect that'll be the same with this one.

    Apparently, advisors are back in. I hope they're the Civ2 style advisors. Miss them.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlTIk80uBPg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFQDeYXq_iw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzHOhIdTpw0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqPC08cPGJw&feature=related

    Doronron on
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Sheep wrote: »
    :(

    I loved Civ 3.

    Me, too - but I also feel that CIV is basically Civ3++, and thus superior in all ways.

    Elvenshae on
  • SheepSheep Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2010
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Sheep wrote: »
    :(

    I loved Civ 3.

    Me, too - but I also feel that CIV is basically Civ3++, and thus superior in all ways.

    What's CIV?

    EDIT

    And I echo the statement that once you play Civ 3, you can't go back to Civ 2, and so on with Civ 4 and Civ 3.

    Sheep on
  • tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I don't know how I feel about hexes. Not being able to move directly north or south is going to annoy me.

    tofu on
  • NeurotikaNeurotika Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Civ 4, perhaps.

    Neurotika on
  • TagTag Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Tag wrote: »
    This seems like a non issue but I still think the fat cross is at the advantage in it aside from, perhaps, theoretical aesthetics.

    I made an overstated claim (the biggest?) about a tiny aspect of the game, and you're taking it like it was a serious point. I was just saying that it would be possible to tessellate the map with cities. I made no claim about practicality of doing so.

    Oh I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm mostly trying to figure out whether the move to hexes is a good idea or not; city layout is just one of the aspects (although another one that, from an optimization side at least, seems to go with squares still). Also when I had the wrong radius of hexes I was completely confused ;P

    On a different hex point, I will miss being able to use the numpad for unit movement since Civilization has been my single player travel game of choice. I guess they could use something weird like "wedxza".

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  • LitanyLitany Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    CIV = C IV = C 4. Confused me for a second, too.

    I can readily go back between Civ2 and Civ4. I can't play 1 or 3 at this point. 1/2 feel more streamlined then 3/4 and I enjoy both 'styles' of the series.

    Litany on
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This discussion has been closed.