You say 5 man fights don't go past 3 minutes, but I seriously had a 15 minute Tyrannus fight recently. Our only 'good' DPS went nuts with the brand, killing me the tank, and then getting splattered himself moments later the old fashioned way. Druid healer picked me up off the ground and we proceeded to down him... eventually. I'm not sure the other DPS were even awake.
So your entire group was averaging less than 1200 DPS (total!), assuming you're talking about heroic.
The beauty of mastery is that it makes 71/0/0 silly geese not as bad as they are now, sort of. Yay?
Yeah but they are gonna put a limit on how much you can go in, I think it was 50 before it loses effect. They still want you to get a subspec in a different tree.
"It's possible you will only get the benefit of the tree in which you've spent the most points, or will only get the benefit from say 50 points maximum with the bonus chosen from the tree with the most points in it. We'll have to see when the talent trees are more finalized and we start to figure out build strategies. "
The beauty of mastery is that it makes 71/0/0 silly geese not as bad as they are now, sort of. Yay?
Yeah but they are gonna put a limit on how much you can go in, I think it was 50 before it loses effect. They still want you to get a subspec in a different tree.
"It's possible you will only get the benefit of the tree in which you've spent the most points, or will only get the benefit from say 50 points maximum with the bonus chosen from the tree with the most points in it. We'll have to see when the talent trees are more finalized and we start to figure out build strategies. "
But wouldn't it be more interesting if the bonus continued all the way up?
So you can trade off for some flexibility or variety by dipping into other trees now, or you can push for all points in one tree to maximize your mastery bonus.
I mean, that's kinda the definition of "mastery", is it not?
But if you want to encourage people to take talents that may not be the "optimal" choice, why would you reduce the incentive to do so by investing more points in your given talent tree.
I'm not arguing with anyone, just pointing out that if you in some way limit the amount of points that add up to benefit your mastery score, then in a way, you're really not encouraging people to do anything different with the way they assign talent points.
You say 5 man fights don't go past 3 minutes, but I seriously had a 15 minute Tyrannus fight recently. Our only 'good' DPS went nuts with the brand, killing me the tank, and then getting splattered himself moments later the old fashioned way. Druid healer picked me up off the ground and we proceeded to down him... eventually. I'm not sure the other DPS were even awake.
So your entire group was averaging less than 1200 DPS (total!), assuming you're talking about heroic.
Seriously?
Maybe the healer kept getting branded? Still, a druid healer that has the heal through branding that bad probably isn't going to have 15 minutes worth of a mana pool.
edit: to be fair, weapon skill has always sucked and I'm mad that it took them this long to decide to get rid of it.
Looks like I better get Master of Arms before it becomes a Feat of Strength.
What is annoying about Feats of Strength is I wanted to do the daily Forsees and Proof of Death ones on my rogue but due to leveling in tier 5 I got turned down a lot
Some of them like the COllecters pet ones annoy me because I misplaced who had what back in October of 2008 and I am too lazy to create get pet and mail the ones I need on my alts
The beauty of mastery is that it makes 71/0/0 silly geese not as bad as they are now, sort of. Yay?
Yeah but they are gonna put a limit on how much you can go in, I think it was 50 before it loses effect. They still want you to get a subspec in a different tree.
Aww. I was hoping they were buffing stupids for my own LFD benefit.
But if you want to encourage people to take talents that may not be the "optimal" choice, why would you reduce the incentive to do so by investing more points in your given talent tree.
I'm not arguing with anyone, just pointing out that if you in some way limit the amount of points that add up to benefit your mastery score, then in a way, you're really not encouraging people to do anything different with the way they assign talent points.
That's what I was getting at.
They're streamlining the trees to the point where it's pretty much just a straight line. Or at least, I think it will be. I mean, there are lots of talents still that nobody takes. There are tons of talents that you *must* take, be it because it's a requirement for a talent you want, or something that will definitely leave you with a noticeable lack in something; be it tanking or healing or damaging.
If Mastery stops at 50, then there's no reason at all to go past it, unless you have a horribly convoluted tree, like Restoration is for Shamans and Druids.
And even then, the sub-Mastery in the other trees might not make up for hybridizing.
I probably shouldn't be commenting on it, as, just like everyone else here, I haven't seen anything about it. But from the sounds, it doesn't sound like it's really going to change anything like how they seem to want it to change. They're trying to get rid of cookie-cuttering, and they're only slightly changing it, with the end results being the same.
I probably shouldn't be commenting on it, as, just like everyone else here, I haven't seen anything about it. But from the sounds, it doesn't sound like it's really going to change anything like how they seem to want it to change. They're trying to get rid of cookie-cuttering, and they're only slightly changing it, with the end results being the same.
Even so, I'd rather cookie cutter into Warbringer than Cruelty, for instance.
From what I remember reading, they still want(or at least don't mind) cookie cutter specs. The only difference is they want the 100% efficient specs to not use up all of your talent points like they do now. Something to the effect of having 5-10(don't remember specifics) points for whatever utility you see fit.
Not knowing exactly how Mastery will work makes it hard to speculate, but I suspect that Mastery won't change much even if it goes to 71 points.
Why? Well, look at the priest ones. I mean, x% increase in healing is nice and all, but even at this point healers so focused on maxxing their total healing per spell as much as hasting, mana costs, et al. A simple % increase, while nice, isn't necessarily required, and if the 20 points go better in another tree, then you're really not losing much.
In regards to dps classes, I could see a very simple, elegant solution being all trees increase damage by x% for points, the differentiation being the third tier Mastery affect having different things going on, as you can see in the difference between Holy and Disc priests.
Still, no clue how it's going to work out in the end. And people will still somehow dictate a "max" spec. Mastery sounds like it's supposed to help out to make the difference between "max" spec and "fun" spec a little less.
Their goal with masteries was to eliminate the talents that said: "Increases damage by x%" and replace them with ones that are like: "Every time you use A, you can use B for C effect." Or something like that...
I firmly believe that one of the Warlock Mastery bonuses should be 'All fire based spells used by the warlock are now green.'
Decomposey on
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
Man this mastery stuff sounds messy. I wonder if mastery rating is going to appear on tank gear or not.
They said it was in a reply to the other stats post. I think everyone gets it.
Then I have to wonder if the Protection trees are going to give tanking stats for mastery or what. Because DKs and bears are going to be getting damage (threat) from their masteries/mastery ratings, so it would be kind of odd to have warrior and paladin tanks have mastery rating working as a tank stat while DKs and bears have it working as a damage stat.
It seems like the three mastery benefits go Role->Class->Spec, sort of. At least, the first one is very broad, the second one fairly broad, and the third one pretty focused.
They could differentiate them for druids/DKs by whether they're in cat/bear or frost/blood. Tank forms get a mastery bonus to health, dps forms get a mastery bonus to damage. Increased haste/runic power is good for tanks as well as DPS, because you can put out more threat or have more runes/RP available for cooldowns. Or they could change the second and third tier mastery bonuses based on stance as well, which might be more interesting.
From what I remember reading, they still want(or at least don't mind) cookie cutter specs. The only difference is they want the 100% efficient specs to not use up all of your talent points like they do now. Something to the effect of having 5-10(don't remember specifics) points for whatever utility you see fit.
Then why make those things talents? Why not just make a special ability that unlocks every 5 levels, tied to your chosen Talent tree?
It's like getting a menu at a restaurant, where you can have anything you want, as long as you order all these others things, as well.
But ultimately, regardless of how they do it, you're always going to have the optimal and suboptimal talents, even if they remove +% crit or +dmg or +sp or whatever. A couple weeks after the NDA is lifted on Cataclysm, ever WoW site on the Interwebz will have the optimal talent recommendation for each class and spec.
The thing is if optimal is say 100% but reallocating 10 of those points gets you something that's more fun for you but plays at 99%, then Blizz has achieved their goal. Min/Maxers will always exist, but as long as the percent difference between following lock step in their footprints and doing your own thing is small enough, it won't matter that they do.
The thing is if optimal is say 100% but reallocating 10 of those points gets you something that's more fun for you but plays at 99%, then Blizz has achieved their goal. Min/Maxers will always exist, but as long as the percent difference between following lock step in their footprints and doing your own thing is small enough, it won't matter that they do.
This is something I can get behind. :winky:
I have always hated min maxing. Sure, it's fun to do some math to play a game. I like number crunching to go along with my magics. Pew + 2^35/(fire + ball). Makes sense, right?
Then again, this is the reason I'm not a hardcore raider.
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
The only way to get rid of min/maxing in any serious capacity is to remove stats entirely, because if there are numbers involved, someone is going to put math together to figure out the optimal number.
I'm a bit of a min/maxer, so it doesn't bother me...but I also don't like the way some min/maxers are complete assholes about it. "Oh poo poo, you do 50 less DPS then me, you obviously aren't using an optimal spec". That shit is annoying, even for someone that tends to min/max like myself.
But if you want to encourage people to take talents that may not be the "optimal" choice, why would you reduce the incentive to do so by investing more points in your given talent tree.
I'm not arguing with anyone, just pointing out that if you in some way limit the amount of points that add up to benefit your mastery score, then in a way, you're really not encouraging people to do anything different with the way they assign talent points.
Yes, you are.
They've said there will be a limit on how high the Mastery bonuses go (so, say, 50 points and then you get no more for extra points) and that you will probably not get a bonus for your secondary/tertiary trees.
What this means is you dump 50 points into whatever your tree of choice is and then the rest can be distributed however you feel like.
Because there's a limit, at some point you don't NEED to invest more points in that tree. But you can. Or you can not. Whatever, it's up to you.
Well my casual raiding guild pretty much fell apart. Some kind of ongoing drama with the guild leader and his family, quite a few of whom are guildmembers has essentially killed our raids since Christmas. Fewer and fewer people log in on raid nights, and there have been days where we struggle to fill 5-man groups for normal dungeoning. Hell, one of our main tanks will simply bail on the raid halfway through if he finds out it's happy hour at a bar near him. A lot of them are going back to FFXI due to its forthcoming updates, which leaves those of us not wanting to go back to it in the cold.
The worst part is that I'm not a spectacularly-geared Rogue with essentially no Wrath raid experience. My chances of finding a new guild are pretty much nil, especially since I'm not willing to transfer.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
About the talent system: personally, I just wish they'd get rid of all the 5 point talents and instead condense them into 3 pointers. I've never liked 5 point talents, they feel too bulky and expensive.
About the talent system: personally, I just wish they'd get rid of all the 5 point talents and instead condense them into 3 pointers. I've never liked 5 point talents, they feel too bulky and expensive.
That's the point of them.
The number of points a talent is really doesn't mean much other then controlling how you can distribute your points in that tree.
I think the social aspect of the game causes me to be a lot more of a min-maxer than I would like.
I always roll an alt thinking "All right, this is going to be my fun alt and I'm going to take whatever talents I want and just have fun with it." Then I start running dungeons with guildmates and start feeling bad about not bringing my A game and go research how to optimize my class and respec.
Lars on
0
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
I think the social aspect of the game causes me to be a lot more of a min-maxer than I would like.
I always roll an alt thinking "All right, this is going to be my fun alt and I'm going to take whatever talents I want and just have fun with it." Then I start running dungeons with guildmates and start feeling bad about not bringing my A game and go research how to optimize my class and respec.
That's what "secret" alts are for. I have an 80 Hunter that my friends only know vaguely of. If they were to run into me in Dalaran, they wouldn't know it's me. Of course, I also have alts on other servers.
And my Hunter is fully n00b specced, and gemmed, and enchanted.
In an unrelated topic, I was just called a ninja in RFC for needing on items that were legit upgrades.
I hate BElf Paladins so much. So very, very, very, very much.
L Ron Howard on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
About the talent system: personally, I just wish they'd get rid of all the 5 point talents and instead condense them into 3 pointers. I've never liked 5 point talents, they feel too bulky and expensive.
That's the point of them.
The number of points a talent is really doesn't mean much other then controlling how you can distribute your points in that tree.
You say 5 man fights don't go past 3 minutes, but I seriously had a 15 minute Tyrannus fight recently. Our only 'good' DPS went nuts with the brand, killing me the tank, and then getting splattered himself moments later the old fashioned way. Druid healer picked me up off the ground and we proceeded to down him... eventually. I'm not sure the other DPS were even awake.
So your entire group was averaging less than 1200 DPS (total!), assuming you're talking about heroic.
Seriously?
Maybe the healer kept getting branded? Still, a druid healer that has the heal through branding that bad probably isn't going to have 15 minutes worth of a mana pool.
Really should have saved a log, but yes, seriously. Healer was very well geared, and my tank set wasn't too shabby, either. He probably blew multiple innervates on himself.
Well my casual raiding guild pretty much fell apart. Some kind of ongoing drama with the guild leader and his family, quite a few of whom are guildmembers has essentially killed our raids since Christmas. Fewer and fewer people log in on raid nights, and there have been days where we struggle to fill 5-man groups for normal dungeoning. Hell, one of our main tanks will simply bail on the raid halfway through if he finds out it's happy hour at a bar near him. A lot of them are going back to FFXI due to its forthcoming updates, which leaves those of us not wanting to go back to it in the cold.
The worst part is that I'm not a spectacularly-geared Rogue with essentially no Wrath raid experience. My chances of finding a new guild are pretty much nil, especially since I'm not willing to transfer.
Yeah, that's happened with the guild I was in. Except we didn't have any drama.
Some would quite happily say they didn't mind wiping to learn encounters, but they evidently did. If we brought along new people to a fight, because the first lot decided not to grace us, then when the old people came back found themselves in wipes as we had people still gearing up and not having done the fight so many times, they'd log off.
I remember one time in Ulduar with the exception of me, and another guy who came on his alt, the rest of the raid were completely new to it. We one shot all the bosses up to and including the cat lady. We then wiped on Hodir a few times, at which point the other guy just left. Didn't say a word. So we drafted in another new guy and managed to carry on.
Some would get annoyed with how raids are selected, but a line has to be drawn on how many times you want to swap to another character, and there's only so many DK's you can fit into a 10 man raid. If you've got a problem with not getting into a raid, because you turned up 5 mins before it started and hadn't used the sign up feature, then I suggest you join a more serious raiding guild, and see how you like it having a quota of raids you need to sign up for.
Some went off to join other MMO's without telling the rest. We had a guy still rolling on gear when I knew he was leaving the next week.
Some of the people who have left, occasionally log back on at odd times, then complain they don't recognise some of the people in the guild, or that nothing is going on. Sorry we attempted to carry on without you, or that we didn't start a raid until you logged on.
It's gauling at the very least. I don't want to leave the few people that remain, but at the moment I'm not getting in any raids other than pugs, and due to blizzards hard-on for not policing faction / server transfers, I'm finding myself in BG queues of 10-15 minutes where before they used to be instant.
Is there a way to tell how many XP left until your next level? I'm playing a 14-day trial and I haven't been able to find that info anywhere in the UI.
Patrick Ripoll on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
Is there a way to tell how many XP left until your next level? I'm playing a 14-day trial and I haven't been able to find that info anywhere in the UI.
I think you can just point the mouse on the xp-bar and it should show numerical values. (The xp-bar is directly above the action bar)
Posts
I think that kinda goes against what they're trying to do, what with removing "required" talents.
So your entire group was averaging less than 1200 DPS (total!), assuming you're talking about heroic.
Seriously?
Yeah but they are gonna put a limit on how much you can go in, I think it was 50 before it loses effect. They still want you to get a subspec in a different tree.
But wouldn't it be more interesting if the bonus continued all the way up?
So you can trade off for some flexibility or variety by dipping into other trees now, or you can push for all points in one tree to maximize your mastery bonus.
I mean, that's kinda the definition of "mastery", is it not?
Like, they're good at it, but not awesome.
I'm not arguing with anyone, just pointing out that if you in some way limit the amount of points that add up to benefit your mastery score, then in a way, you're really not encouraging people to do anything different with the way they assign talent points.
Maybe the healer kept getting branded? Still, a druid healer that has the heal through branding that bad probably isn't going to have 15 minutes worth of a mana pool.
What is annoying about Feats of Strength is I wanted to do the daily Forsees and Proof of Death ones on my rogue but due to leveling in tier 5 I got turned down a lot
Some of them like the COllecters pet ones annoy me because I misplaced who had what back in October of 2008 and I am too lazy to create get pet and mail the ones I need on my alts
That's what I was getting at.
They're streamlining the trees to the point where it's pretty much just a straight line. Or at least, I think it will be. I mean, there are lots of talents still that nobody takes. There are tons of talents that you *must* take, be it because it's a requirement for a talent you want, or something that will definitely leave you with a noticeable lack in something; be it tanking or healing or damaging.
If Mastery stops at 50, then there's no reason at all to go past it, unless you have a horribly convoluted tree, like Restoration is for Shamans and Druids.
And even then, the sub-Mastery in the other trees might not make up for hybridizing.
I probably shouldn't be commenting on it, as, just like everyone else here, I haven't seen anything about it. But from the sounds, it doesn't sound like it's really going to change anything like how they seem to want it to change. They're trying to get rid of cookie-cuttering, and they're only slightly changing it, with the end results being the same.
Why? Well, look at the priest ones. I mean, x% increase in healing is nice and all, but even at this point healers so focused on maxxing their total healing per spell as much as hasting, mana costs, et al. A simple % increase, while nice, isn't necessarily required, and if the 20 points go better in another tree, then you're really not losing much.
In regards to dps classes, I could see a very simple, elegant solution being all trees increase damage by x% for points, the differentiation being the third tier Mastery affect having different things going on, as you can see in the difference between Holy and Disc priests.
Still, no clue how it's going to work out in the end. And people will still somehow dictate a "max" spec. Mastery sounds like it's supposed to help out to make the difference between "max" spec and "fun" spec a little less.
Insult to injury are the warlock copies created by the valks in ICC have green fire
They're also redoing all the talent trees, getting rid of stupid shit like +3% damage and +5% crit, freeing up quite a few points in the process.
I believe the number they've been throwing around has been roughly 10 "free" points.
They could differentiate them for druids/DKs by whether they're in cat/bear or frost/blood. Tank forms get a mastery bonus to health, dps forms get a mastery bonus to damage. Increased haste/runic power is good for tanks as well as DPS, because you can put out more threat or have more runes/RP available for cooldowns. Or they could change the second and third tier mastery bonuses based on stance as well, which might be more interesting.
Then why make those things talents? Why not just make a special ability that unlocks every 5 levels, tied to your chosen Talent tree?
It's like getting a menu at a restaurant, where you can have anything you want, as long as you order all these others things, as well.
But ultimately, regardless of how they do it, you're always going to have the optimal and suboptimal talents, even if they remove +% crit or +dmg or +sp or whatever. A couple weeks after the NDA is lifted on Cataclysm, ever WoW site on the Interwebz will have the optimal talent recommendation for each class and spec.
This is something I can get behind. :winky:
I have always hated min maxing. Sure, it's fun to do some math to play a game. I like number crunching to go along with my magics. Pew + 2^35/(fire + ball). Makes sense, right?
Then again, this is the reason I'm not a hardcore raider.
I'm a bit of a min/maxer, so it doesn't bother me...but I also don't like the way some min/maxers are complete assholes about it. "Oh poo poo, you do 50 less DPS then me, you obviously aren't using an optimal spec". That shit is annoying, even for someone that tends to min/max like myself.
Yes, you are.
They've said there will be a limit on how high the Mastery bonuses go (so, say, 50 points and then you get no more for extra points) and that you will probably not get a bonus for your secondary/tertiary trees.
What this means is you dump 50 points into whatever your tree of choice is and then the rest can be distributed however you feel like.
Because there's a limit, at some point you don't NEED to invest more points in that tree. But you can. Or you can not. Whatever, it's up to you.
The worst part is that I'm not a spectacularly-geared Rogue with essentially no Wrath raid experience. My chances of finding a new guild are pretty much nil, especially since I'm not willing to transfer.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
That's the point of them.
The number of points a talent is really doesn't mean much other then controlling how you can distribute your points in that tree.
I always roll an alt thinking "All right, this is going to be my fun alt and I'm going to take whatever talents I want and just have fun with it." Then I start running dungeons with guildmates and start feeling bad about not bringing my A game and go research how to optimize my class and respec.
That's what "secret" alts are for. I have an 80 Hunter that my friends only know vaguely of. If they were to run into me in Dalaran, they wouldn't know it's me. Of course, I also have alts on other servers.
And my Hunter is fully n00b specced, and gemmed, and enchanted.
In an unrelated topic, I was just called a ninja in RFC for needing on items that were legit upgrades.
I hate BElf Paladins so much. So very, very, very, very much.
Yeah but 5 point talents are bad and stupid.
Also, you smell.
Really should have saved a log, but yes, seriously. Healer was very well geared, and my tank set wasn't too shabby, either. He probably blew multiple innervates on himself.
Yeah, that's happened with the guild I was in. Except we didn't have any drama.
Some would quite happily say they didn't mind wiping to learn encounters, but they evidently did. If we brought along new people to a fight, because the first lot decided not to grace us, then when the old people came back found themselves in wipes as we had people still gearing up and not having done the fight so many times, they'd log off.
I remember one time in Ulduar with the exception of me, and another guy who came on his alt, the rest of the raid were completely new to it. We one shot all the bosses up to and including the cat lady. We then wiped on Hodir a few times, at which point the other guy just left. Didn't say a word. So we drafted in another new guy and managed to carry on.
Some would get annoyed with how raids are selected, but a line has to be drawn on how many times you want to swap to another character, and there's only so many DK's you can fit into a 10 man raid. If you've got a problem with not getting into a raid, because you turned up 5 mins before it started and hadn't used the sign up feature, then I suggest you join a more serious raiding guild, and see how you like it having a quota of raids you need to sign up for.
Some went off to join other MMO's without telling the rest. We had a guy still rolling on gear when I knew he was leaving the next week.
Some of the people who have left, occasionally log back on at odd times, then complain they don't recognise some of the people in the guild, or that nothing is going on. Sorry we attempted to carry on without you, or that we didn't start a raid until you logged on.
It's gauling at the very least. I don't want to leave the few people that remain, but at the moment I'm not getting in any raids other than pugs, and due to blizzards hard-on for not policing faction / server transfers, I'm finding myself in BG queues of 10-15 minutes where before they used to be instant.
I think you can just point the mouse on the xp-bar and it should show numerical values. (The xp-bar is directly above the action bar)
oh, it even shows a tooltip: