A feature of it I *don't* use but really should, is rating group members at the end of the dungeon. So I can start to build up some information and determine if I've grouped with someone before and such.
Or looking up people I grouped with later to tell my friends about... like the insane Arms Warrior I had in H FoS who averaged about 7k DPS for the run. Guy was crazy good... had 3 or 4 pieces of PvP gear as well, including the 277 PvP Two-Handed... Axe I think it was? I think that's what Arms uses... maybe it's sword.
I sometimes use wow-heroes and wondered why my GS seemed low compared to what most people talk about.
Not that it matters.
But why is theirs different anyway, does anyone know how it's calculated?
Not really sure, but I use Elitist Group for quick audits in game. It gives the information that is readily useful:
-Bad Gems/No Gems
-Bad Enchants/No Enchants
-PvP Pieces
-Pieces with pointless stats or irrelevant to spec (Enhance Shaman wearing Elemental Mail for example).
-Average item iLevel and approximation of what average ilvl is needed for various tiers of content.
Now that is some good information. I wouldn't mind being prejudiced with that (allowing for things like gemming maybe being sub-optimal as long as the rest is alright).
My reactionary opposition to GS notwithstanding, I've been thinking about picking this one up. I don't plan on initiating group kicks with it, but it'd be nice to know, for example, if my tank is wearing spellpower gloves, like my druid tank for UP was last night. I might be convinced to wait that extra second before unloading with a Chain Lightning/Flame Shock/Lava Burst/Fire Nova/Chain Lightning combo.
As an anecdote to the story, I ran H PoS with a 25k unbuffed tank. He used a pot and with Fortitude and everything he was at 35k
what
That's a *little* low for PoS, but not much. I think that might have been where my pally was when H FoS unlocked. I was prolly 27-28k when PoS unlocked.
As an anecdote to the story, I ran H PoS with a 25k unbuffed tank. He used a pot and with Fortitude and everything he was at 35k
what
That's a *little* low for PoS, but not much. I think that might have been where my pally was when H FoS unlocked. I was prolly 27-28k when PoS unlocked.
My point was more that how does someone go from 25k health unbuffed to 35k health buffed?
Although, now that I think about it, I don't think the gear checking for the dungeon finder would even let someone with that gear level queue for HPoS.
forty on
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
As an anecdote to the story, I ran H PoS with a 25k unbuffed tank. He used a pot and with Fortitude and everything he was at 35k
what
That's a *little* low for PoS, but not much. I think that might have been where my pally was when H FoS unlocked. I was prolly 27-28k when PoS unlocked.
That's insanely low, I must admit. I didn't realize he had only 25k health until we died. It was then that I saw that he was flasked and everything. I just assumed he was 35k and mildly buffed. But he did a good job too. IIRC, the healer got d/c'd, and we wiped.
Apparently the requirements for the new ICC heroics are set for something like "do you have at least one epic (y/n)?"
As an anecdote to the story, I ran H PoS with a 25k unbuffed tank. He used a pot and with Fortitude and everything he was at 35k
what
That's a *little* low for PoS, but not much. I think that might have been where my pally was when H FoS unlocked. I was prolly 27-28k when PoS unlocked.
That's insanely low, I must admit. I didn't realize he had only 25k health until we died. It was then that I saw that he was flasked and everything. I just assumed he was 35k and mildly buffed. But he did a good job too. IIRC, the healer got d/c'd, and we wiped.
Apparently the requirements for the new ICC heroics are set for something like "do you have at least one epic (y/n)?"
See, ICC10/25 gear just spoils people's perceptions. When FoS unlocked on my pally, I was in 4/5 t9, the triumph tanking libram, the triumph tank trinket, 4x ilvl 200 blues, everything else ilvl 200 purples. I had *maybe* 26k unbuffed; but I think 25k is closer to the mark. By the time PoS unlocked, I'd upgraded two pieces to ivl219 and replaced a ilvl 200 ring with the triumph tanking ring. Up to 27-28k or so. I've only had the Argent Defender debuff up *once* in an ICC5, and that was when my healer was from the Latin America server in our battlegroup and tried to walk through the spawns after Ick as they're summoning.
25k is not "insanely low" for PoS. Bottom edge of doable? Sure.
See, ICC10/25 gear just spoils people's perceptions.
Not really. My DK had over 25k in his tanking offspec back in the Ulduar days.
So you had 25k unbuffed in a mix of gear 213-226, with maybe a smattering of 232 (Maybe not?) I assume by "the Ulduar days" you were raiding Ulduar, and that you're not suggesting you hit 25k in nothing but ivl 200 epics? That would put you roughly in the same place, gearwise, as someone with gear between ivl200 blue and ivl 245+. Did your DK have "insanely low" HP for his gear level?
cyfir on
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
My warrior tank has 28k unbuffed HP right now. He has mostly naxx 10 gear, with a very tiny smattering of anything 213+. I think I have the Triumph badge necklace, and that's my highest piece. I still have two blue trinkets and a blue cloak. And yet, it still won't let me queue for the ICC 5 mans. I took the quest, but it says I need better gear. So how does this Paladin get in with less HP, and thus presumably lower quality gear, than me?
And why is it so wrong to expect the tank to be in the low 30's for the minimum health to do an ICC 5 man? I mean, if he were 35k self buffed, not flasked and all that, that would be fine. In this case, the tank did fine, but I think the healer must have broken a finger or two trying to keep him up as well as the other stupid dpsers. And maybe the tank I had was very skilled, and trying his hardest, and that's why he was able to do it. Whereas, as I know it's been demonstrated before, a 40k+ tank just consecrates and goes afk. Even still, I think 25 is a bit too low. The trash on the ramps leading up to the tunnel must have just killed the healer, really.
See, ICC10/25 gear just spoils people's perceptions.
Not really. My DK had over 25k in his tanking offspec back in the Ulduar days.
So you had 25k unbuffed in a mix of gear 213-226, with maybe a smattering of 232 (Maybe not?)
Over, yes.
The point being it's incredibly easy to get more than 25k now considering that most Ulduar gear (at least the level of gear I had) is obsolete compared to what you get doing heroics. Saying that 25k health is low for HPoS is not a case of "omg spoiled ICC elitist."
Which wasn't even something I said anyway. I just boggled at the notion of someone gaining 10k health through 5-man buffs.
Does anybody put any stock into http://www.guildox.com and its info gathering? According to it, going by strict 10m progression and nothing else, my guild is now the top ranking Horde guild on our server. So far though we've only managed to down Putricide and Dreamwalker, and we only really raid 2 days a week.
Not too shabby if I say so myself, but I'm also leery of any website that says we're no.1 in anything. :P
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
My warrior tank has 28k unbuffed HP right now. He has mostly naxx 10 gear, with a very tiny smattering of anything 213+. I think I have the Triumph badge necklace, and that's my highest piece. I still have two blue trinkets and a blue cloak. And yet, it still won't let me queue for the ICC 5 mans. I took the quest, but it says I need better gear. So how does this Paladin get in with less HP, and thus presumably lower quality gear, than me?
And why is it so wrong to expect the tank to be in the low 30's for the minimum health to do an ICC 5 man? I mean, if he were 35k self buffed, not flasked and all that, that would be fine. In this case, the tank did fine, but I think the healer must have broken a finger or two trying to keep him up as well as the other stupid dpsers. And maybe the tank I had was very skilled, and trying his hardest, and that's why he was able to do it. Whereas, as I know it's been demonstrated before, a 40k+ tank just consecrates and goes afk. Even still, I think 25 is a bit too low. The trash on the ramps leading up to the tunnel must have just killed the healer, really.
Armory link? I'm not calling shenanigans, I just want to see this. Understand, I've only ever tanked as a pally, so that's my only benchmark to gauge from. I'm wondering if the unbuffed hp of a pally is *drastically* lower than an equally geared anything else. Assuming I'm not in my craptastic ret gear, you can look me up (Lorrael, US-Kargath,) but my gear breakdown by ilvl is as follows:
In progress to be sure, but surely enough to tank ICC5. I'm BS/Mining; both gloves and bracer are socketed. Everything except the 200s have endgame enchants/gems. I could get i think another 30 or so stam if I socketed straight solid zircon, but then I wouldn't be def capped.
I have 32k unbuffed. By your assessment, I'm barely ready to tank ICC5.
As a related question, what should I have been doing from the point where I started getting FoS at about 25k until now? Dropping group every time LFD put me in ICC5?
There has *got* to be some major disparities. I dinged 80, and in the same boat as you (literally; I grabbed titansteel helm/boots/shield and titanium ring,) I was standing tall at... 20.5k unbuffed.
cyfir on
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
Armory link? I'm not calling shenanigans, I just want to see this. Understand, I've only ever tanked as a pally, so that's my only benchmark to gauge from. I'm wondering if the unbuffed hp of a pally is *drastically* lower than an equally geared anything else. Assuming I'm not in my craptastic ret gear, you can look me up (Lorrael, US-Kargath,) but my gear breakdown by ilvl is as follows:
In progress to be sure, but surely enough to tank ICC5. I'm BS/Mining; both gloves and bracer are socketed. Everything except the 200s have endgame enchants/gems. I could get i think another 30 or so stam if I socketed straight solid zircon, but then I wouldn't be def capped.
I have 32k unbuffed. By your assessment, I'm barely ready to tank ICC5.
As a related question, what should I have been doing from the point where I started getting FoS at about 25k until now? Dropping group every time LFD put me in ICC5?
I don't have access to the armory because I'm at work, but you can check out my tank: Stuth on US-Stonemaul.
And by my assessment, you are correct that you're fine to start tanking the ICC 5-man heroics.
I'm only speaking as a healer on this, though. H FoS is not too bad. The ghosts before the last boss suck, yes. But if everyone groups together, Chain Heal really takes care of everything. The sole mage that stands outside of Chain Heals range will bite it though, even after being asked to stand close.
The trash hill on H PoS just wrecks anything in range, however. You want to have a decent buffer of HP while the big heals are being cast.
H HoR is very similar to that. By my completely biased estimates, I'd look for the high 30's before tanking that.
I'd show you my Shaman, but its not in healing gear or spec ATM, and that doesn't do any good for anyone. I'll log in later tonight and switch specs so you can laugh at me.
My point is this: I've been tanking ICC5 for quite some time now, without difficulty. And my other question stands - What do you say I should have been doing all this time, rather than staying in the dungeon LFD put me in, when my HP was "too low" for ICC5?
EDIT: I just want to clarify, I'm not trying to start a fight, or declare everyone who disagrees with me to be elitist. Up to this point, gearing the pally has been a neverending excercise in futility; it feels like everyone thinks I'm too gimp for *everything* I get put in. I've only just recently stopped getting complaints about my gear in non-ICC heroics, and I'm at the point now that I'm consistently #1 or #2 on the DPS Meter in those, for geese's sake. Clearly, there's a disconnect somewhere, and I just want to figure out where.
Also, maybe I messed up calcs on this, but when I started looking at BiS gear, without raiding, the highest I could get a paper doll paladin was 35k-ish unbuffed. I think the only frost badge gear on that profile is the cloak and the corroded skeleton key, because lets be honest, including a bunch of frost badge gear on a "no raiding" profile is completely unrealistic.
Paladins are a *bit* behind on the HP scaling, but certainly not to a ridiculous degree like 20k to 25k. But that's because you shouldn't really be counting Paladin 'unbuffed' HP. Paladin HP is tweaked to include Sanctuary as far as I can tell, because you're never *really* unbuffed.
At least that's what I seemed to notice when I finally got my DK up around the same gear level as my Pally. My DK (Blood, granted), was sitting at 38k, but my Pally was sitting at like 36k, once I put Sanct up, I ended up around 38k right with the DK.
Though now that my DK no longer uses the Brewfest trinket, HP dropped a bit, and I still have a couple of pieces to catch up to the pally now. Frost tanking belt is going to be a good 1.2k hp upgrade or so, and then eventually the Corroded Skeleton Key or whatever it's called that my Pally just got the other night. Those are the last main ones I'm looking to get.
38k is with Stamina stacking however, and neither my DK nor may Pally are hit or expertise capped, even for heroics. I'm considering doing some optimization for that actually... not sure if it's worth it.
I'm curious what gear configuration you had that let the DF put you in HPoS with 25k health.
To be clear, it's "some pally" who was in HPoS at 25k. Like I said before, IIRC I was around 27-28k when it dumped me in there on my first run. To the best of my recollection, my first HPoS i was in -
Tempered Titansteel Helm
Some ilvl 200 blue necklace
t9 Shoulders
Cloak of the enemy (ilvl 200 blue)
t9 Chest
Tempered Saronite Bracers (ilvl 174 blue)
t9 Gloves
ilvl 200 blue belt off Skadi
t9 Legs
Sollerets of Suffering (ilvl 219 in NFoS)
Some ilvl 200 blue ring
Titanium Earthguard Ring (ilvl 200 purple)
Offering of Sacrifice (ilvl 200 blue)
Glyph of Indomitability(sp) (ilvl 245)
Lucky Old Sun (ilvl 219 in NFoS)
Royal Crest of Lordaeron (ilvl 200 epic)
frost badge libram
None of the blue stuff was enchanted; anything 200 or below only had rare gems because I'm poor.
Paladin HP is tweaked to include Sanctuary as far as I can tell, because you're never *really* unbuffed.
It's not, since raid tanks are all assumed to have an 8-10% HP buff (drums Kings, real Kings, or Sanc). Keep in mind Sanc gives as much stamina as DKs and warriors get passively, so if paladins were balanced around that, they would get no stamina at all through talents, which is clearly not the case.
Am I alone in remembering that at the end of Naxx content going into Ulduar we had tanks barely breaking 30k unbuffed at that point, unless they were BiS? As in We-Do-Sarth3D-Every-Lockout tanks? That was ilevel 213+ gear too...so why are people so whiny when a tank with 27k health pops up in HFoS or PoS? HoR is a bit more scary, but a good tank is about threat and mitigation, not about HP.
(btw - armory my name to see what class I play. I know what it's like to heal this stuff)
Ugh, the lack of mitigation and avoidance on new tanks is terrible. They hear that stam is king for raiders and focus on getting that first which makes them huge mana sponges. I'd take a 30k health tank over a 40k one for heroics anyday assuming they had similar enough gearscores.
Ugh, the lack of mitigation and avoidance on new tanks is terrible. They hear that stam is king for raiders and focus on getting that first which makes them huge mana sponges. I'd take a 30k health tank over a 40k one for heroics anyday assuming they had similar enough gearscores.
What blessing offers more mitigation beyond Sanc? And wouldn't the PALADIN be tanking if he or she had it?
Sterica on
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
I got this thing as a tank. I would literally let him smack on a mob for 5 seconds, one wrath and I would have 100% aggro. He was using half ret PvP gear and a 0/71/0 spec.
I got this thing as a tank. I would literally let him smack on a mob for 5 seconds, one wrath and I would have 100% aggro. He was using half ret PvP gear and a 0/71/0 spec.
I think the tradeskills make it. It takes real talent to pick exactly seven peacebloom for engineering.
Posts
A feature of it I *don't* use but really should, is rating group members at the end of the dungeon. So I can start to build up some information and determine if I've grouped with someone before and such.
Or looking up people I grouped with later to tell my friends about... like the insane Arms Warrior I had in H FoS who averaged about 7k DPS for the run. Guy was crazy good... had 3 or 4 pieces of PvP gear as well, including the 277 PvP Two-Handed... Axe I think it was? I think that's what Arms uses... maybe it's sword.
My reactionary opposition to GS notwithstanding, I've been thinking about picking this one up. I don't plan on initiating group kicks with it, but it'd be nice to know, for example, if my tank is wearing spellpower gloves, like my druid tank for UP was last night. I might be convinced to wait that extra second before unloading with a Chain Lightning/Flame Shock/Lava Burst/Fire Nova/Chain Lightning combo.
That's a *little* low for PoS, but not much. I think that might have been where my pally was when H FoS unlocked. I was prolly 27-28k when PoS unlocked.
Although, now that I think about it, I don't think the gear checking for the dungeon finder would even let someone with that gear level queue for HPoS.
That's insanely low, I must admit. I didn't realize he had only 25k health until we died. It was then that I saw that he was flasked and everything. I just assumed he was 35k and mildly buffed. But he did a good job too. IIRC, the healer got d/c'd, and we wiped.
Apparently the requirements for the new ICC heroics are set for something like "do you have at least one epic (y/n)?"
See, ICC10/25 gear just spoils people's perceptions. When FoS unlocked on my pally, I was in 4/5 t9, the triumph tanking libram, the triumph tank trinket, 4x ilvl 200 blues, everything else ilvl 200 purples. I had *maybe* 26k unbuffed; but I think 25k is closer to the mark. By the time PoS unlocked, I'd upgraded two pieces to ivl219 and replaced a ilvl 200 ring with the triumph tanking ring. Up to 27-28k or so. I've only had the Argent Defender debuff up *once* in an ICC5, and that was when my healer was from the Latin America server in our battlegroup and tried to walk through the spawns after Ick as they're summoning.
25k is not "insanely low" for PoS. Bottom edge of doable? Sure.
ohhhhhh ho ho ho
(dick move)
So you had 25k unbuffed in a mix of gear 213-226, with maybe a smattering of 232 (Maybe not?) I assume by "the Ulduar days" you were raiding Ulduar, and that you're not suggesting you hit 25k in nothing but ivl 200 epics? That would put you roughly in the same place, gearwise, as someone with gear between ivl200 blue and ivl 245+. Did your DK have "insanely low" HP for his gear level?
And why is it so wrong to expect the tank to be in the low 30's for the minimum health to do an ICC 5 man? I mean, if he were 35k self buffed, not flasked and all that, that would be fine. In this case, the tank did fine, but I think the healer must have broken a finger or two trying to keep him up as well as the other stupid dpsers. And maybe the tank I had was very skilled, and trying his hardest, and that's why he was able to do it. Whereas, as I know it's been demonstrated before, a 40k+ tank just consecrates and goes afk. Even still, I think 25 is a bit too low. The trash on the ramps leading up to the tunnel must have just killed the healer, really.
The point being it's incredibly easy to get more than 25k now considering that most Ulduar gear (at least the level of gear I had) is obsolete compared to what you get doing heroics. Saying that 25k health is low for HPoS is not a case of "omg spoiled ICC elitist."
Which wasn't even something I said anyway. I just boggled at the notion of someone gaining 10k health through 5-man buffs.
Not too shabby if I say so myself, but I'm also leery of any website that says we're no.1 in anything. :P
Armory link? I'm not calling shenanigans, I just want to see this. Understand, I've only ever tanked as a pally, so that's my only benchmark to gauge from. I'm wondering if the unbuffed hp of a pally is *drastically* lower than an equally geared anything else. Assuming I'm not in my craptastic ret gear, you can look me up (Lorrael, US-Kargath,) but my gear breakdown by ilvl is as follows:
2x 264
3x 245
4x 232 (4pc t9)
2x 226
2x 219
2x 200 epic
2x 200 blue
In progress to be sure, but surely enough to tank ICC5. I'm BS/Mining; both gloves and bracer are socketed. Everything except the 200s have endgame enchants/gems. I could get i think another 30 or so stam if I socketed straight solid zircon, but then I wouldn't be def capped.
I have 32k unbuffed. By your assessment, I'm barely ready to tank ICC5.
As a related question, what should I have been doing from the point where I started getting FoS at about 25k until now? Dropping group every time LFD put me in ICC5?
As what class?
I don't have access to the armory because I'm at work, but you can check out my tank: Stuth on US-Stonemaul.
And by my assessment, you are correct that you're fine to start tanking the ICC 5-man heroics.
I'm only speaking as a healer on this, though. H FoS is not too bad. The ghosts before the last boss suck, yes. But if everyone groups together, Chain Heal really takes care of everything. The sole mage that stands outside of Chain Heals range will bite it though, even after being asked to stand close.
The trash hill on H PoS just wrecks anything in range, however. You want to have a decent buffer of HP while the big heals are being cast.
H HoR is very similar to that. By my completely biased estimates, I'd look for the high 30's before tanking that.
I'd show you my Shaman, but its not in healing gear or spec ATM, and that doesn't do any good for anyone. I'll log in later tonight and switch specs so you can laugh at me.
EDIT: I just want to clarify, I'm not trying to start a fight, or declare everyone who disagrees with me to be elitist. Up to this point, gearing the pally has been a neverending excercise in futility; it feels like everyone thinks I'm too gimp for *everything* I get put in. I've only just recently stopped getting complaints about my gear in non-ICC heroics, and I'm at the point now that I'm consistently #1 or #2 on the DPS Meter in those, for geese's sake. Clearly, there's a disconnect somewhere, and I just want to figure out where.
Being one of the main raiding guilds on the server is great though.
At least that's what I seemed to notice when I finally got my DK up around the same gear level as my Pally. My DK (Blood, granted), was sitting at 38k, but my Pally was sitting at like 36k, once I put Sanct up, I ended up around 38k right with the DK.
Though now that my DK no longer uses the Brewfest trinket, HP dropped a bit, and I still have a couple of pieces to catch up to the pally now. Frost tanking belt is going to be a good 1.2k hp upgrade or so, and then eventually the Corroded Skeleton Key or whatever it's called that my Pally just got the other night. Those are the last main ones I'm looking to get.
38k is with Stamina stacking however, and neither my DK nor may Pally are hit or expertise capped, even for heroics. I'm considering doing some optimization for that actually... not sure if it's worth it.
To be clear, it's "some pally" who was in HPoS at 25k. Like I said before, IIRC I was around 27-28k when it dumped me in there on my first run. To the best of my recollection, my first HPoS i was in -
Tempered Titansteel Helm
Some ilvl 200 blue necklace
t9 Shoulders
Cloak of the enemy (ilvl 200 blue)
t9 Chest
Tempered Saronite Bracers (ilvl 174 blue)
t9 Gloves
ilvl 200 blue belt off Skadi
t9 Legs
Sollerets of Suffering (ilvl 219 in NFoS)
Some ilvl 200 blue ring
Titanium Earthguard Ring (ilvl 200 purple)
Offering of Sacrifice (ilvl 200 blue)
Glyph of Indomitability(sp) (ilvl 245)
Lucky Old Sun (ilvl 219 in NFoS)
Royal Crest of Lordaeron (ilvl 200 epic)
frost badge libram
None of the blue stuff was enchanted; anything 200 or below only had rare gems because I'm poor.
(btw - armory my name to see what class I play. I know what it's like to heal this stuff)
Mmmmm....toasty.
I think the tradeskills make it. It takes real talent to pick exactly seven peacebloom for engineering.