In WotLK, it's not too uncommon for a guild to have two 10man raids going.
No, it isn't. I never said that, though. What I'm guessing is uncommon is guilds that have two 10-man raids but don't do 25-mans.
If 10man becomes the norm, whether you can survive the transition depends entirely on whether or not you already were fielding two 10mans. If a guild was able to do two 10mans successfully already, they'll continue as is.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
If your guild can't kill Arthas with a 30% buff or whatever it's going to get to then I just don't know.
The Chill of Attendance debuff will cancel that out.
Haha, so true. My main's 25-man has fizzled out at 9/12 HM kills for quite a while. Attrition is doing its best to counterbalance progression. Hell, we've actually only killed HM Deathwhisper once. Every week since has been about 90 minutes of wiping to her on HM before we go back to normal so we can actually clear ICC for the week.
Is the 15% buff coming this week? I think it should be, but I'm not sure. Maybe 15% will be enough to let us go back to killing Deathwhisper on HM.
In WotLK, it's not too uncommon for a guild to have two 10man raids going.
No, it isn't. I never said that, though. What I'm guessing is uncommon is guilds that have two 10-man raids but don't do 25-mans.
If 10man becomes the norm, whether you can survive the transition depends entirely on whether or not you already were fielding two 10mans. If a guild was able to do two 10mans successfully already, they'll continue as is.
As I've said, if they're guilds with a decent 25-man raid, then I don't think they're going to become a two 10-man guild in most cases. I don't think people are suddenly going to want to stop playing WoW with over half of their guildmates.
If your guild can't kill Arthas with a 30% buff or whatever it's going to get to then I just don't know.
The Chill of Attendance debuff will cancel that out.
Haha, so true. My main's 25-man has fizzled out at 9/12 HM kills for quite a while. Attrition is doing its best to counterbalance progression. Hell, we've actually only killed HM Deathwhisper once. Every week since has been about 90 minutes of wiping to her on HM before we go back to normal so we can actually clear ICC for the week.
Is the 15% buff coming this week? I think it should be, but I'm not sure. Maybe 15% will be enough to let us go back to killing Deathwhisper on HM.
I can't remember when the 10% kicked in, if it was the week solidly into april, or right at the end of march.
We've already made the decision to split into two 10-mans if these changes stay the same. Two officers will lead one raid and two officers will lead the other. The logistics behind running a 25 man raid is nightmarish and often times makes me not want to play the game at all with all the bullshit involved. No more hours spent selling off BoEs and organizing the guildbank, no more hours spent fixing DKP for people who were here for 1 hour or came 39 minutes late, etc etc etc. Show up with the other officer and our set 8 people, run through, roll need on shit we need and DE the rest, finish in 1 night presumably. Perfect.
If your guild can't kill Arthas with a 30% buff or whatever it's going to get to then I just don't know.
The Chill of Attendance debuff will cancel that out.
Haha, so true. My main's 25-man has fizzled out at 9/12 HM kills for quite a while. Attrition is doing its best to counterbalance progression. Hell, we've actually only killed HM Deathwhisper once. Every week since has been about 90 minutes of wiping to her on HM before we go back to normal so we can actually clear ICC for the week.
Is the 15% buff coming this week? I think it should be, but I'm not sure. Maybe 15% will be enough to let us go back to killing Deathwhisper on HM.
I think it comes next week.
And regarding the earlier post; yeah we're talking about two types of guilds. I wasn't really disagreeing with you just saying my guild, as an example, is different. We don't field a successful 25. But we do have one really successful 10 and another pretty successful one. Granted we haven't downed the lich king in either but we're not about speed, so its no biggy. We'll get him down soon but that's besides the point.
I was just saying that while we, now, often have too many people for the 25's show up (a lot of new recruits; we'll see how long they stick around and such though), but its highly unsuccessful. The first night more than enough people show. The second and third nights either not enough people show or those who do are woefully unprepared and no progression is ever made.
Due to this I know there are many of the "raiders" in the guild that are totally put off by the 25's and consider the 10's the "real" raids. So for my guild, and probably many that are in a similar boat, I think it's highly likely that one of two things will happen:
1)Multiple 10's will be made. 25's will be dropped. Folks who only showed for 25's to soak gear but don't want to commit to proper gearing and strats will give up on raiding and likely give up on the guild. Folks who like the 10's already will be happy with this change and will be happy with the guild
2)10's will be dropped, maybe one 10 will survive, and the guild tries to force 25's down everyones throat. (you can tell my obvious bias). Those who are already frustrated with the total lack of progression in 25's won't want to waste their time week after week getting nowhere because half the raid is only there to be carried and they will give up on the guild. The folks left will not be able to accomplish anything and the guild will fall apart entirely.
I could probably come up with some "middle ground" option too but those honestly seem like the two most likely outcomes for my guild and those like it.
More "hardcore" guilds that are stricter about raiding and are already successful in their 25's; yeah, totally different outcomes there.
I'm just coming from the perspective of being in a guild with a fairly competent 25-man raid. In general I don't think people would even be bothering with our 10-man raids if they weren't able to supplement their gear by doing so. Hell, in recent weeks there's only been about one good 10-man running anymore since there is very little reason for most the people running them to do so. I don't think people are going to want to cut themselves off from half the people they've been raiding with for years, but I could be wrong.
Either way, one thing they've definitely got to do is make 25-man bosses drop 4 pieces again. I don't think this T10 (ICC and Toravon) 25-man boss only dropping 3 pieces shit will cut it in Cataclysm.
And does this mean VoAIDS 2.0 will have the same drop tables in 10 and 25 as well? If so, then I can imagine 25-mans for it being all but nonexistent (being done only by a guild 25-man raid at the start/end of a raid night).
Well, logically 10's will win purely by the loot numbers, if both versions drop the same ilvl gear.
IF it continues like it does now, where 2 pieces of gear drop per boss on 10's, you'd need to have 5 drop per boss on 25, to make them equal, right? I just don't see Blizzard doing that... Besides, even then the 10's will be 'easier', purely from a logistics point of view.
The only way to make 25's seem more desirable is to make 25's drop 3-4 items per boss, and 10's would have to be dropped to 1 per. Which would make raiding 10's extremely undesirable.
Like others have said, my guild is at the point where we have a very solid 10 man core, and we barely are able to field a 25 man raid, mainly due to burnout attrition. This change will most likely cause the core raid to say, 'Thanks guys, but we're successful without you tag-alongs that only show up half the time...we're going 10's'
Voa 10/25 already have the same drop table, just different ilvl; which is what they're changing it to universally in Cata.
Instead of having totally different itemization/names for gear in 10/25 they'll be exactly the same names/itemization but one will be ilvl 300 and the 25's will be ilvl 315.
That's my take of it anyway.
EDIT: to Karenna, the post explicitly states that the gear will be the same but 25's will be a higher quality.
EDIT EDIT: Nevermind. I totally read that wrong. If they're the exact same stats and quality then that changes everything even more.
Either way, one thing they've definitely got to do is make 25-man bosses drop 4 pieces again. I don't think this T10 (ICC and Toravon) 25-man boss only dropping 3 pieces shit will cut it in Cataclysm.
No argument at all on that point.
And does this mean VoAIDS 2.0 will have the same drop tables in 10 and 25 as well? If so, then I can imagine 25-mans for it being all but nonexistent (being done only by a guild 25-man raid at the start/end of a raid night).
I imagine so. People seem to really like the VoA10 "class runs" too (given most of the gear drops are class specific), so there'd be even more resistance to 25man.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Voa 10/25 already have the same drop table, just different ilvl; which is what they're changing it to universally in Cata.
Instead of having totally different itemization/names for gear in 10/25 they'll be exactly the same names/itemization but one will be ilvl 300 and the 25's will be ilvl 315.
That's my take of it anyway.
EDIT: to Karenna, the post explicitly states that the gear will be the same but 25's will be a higher quality.
25 man would have to drop significantly more loot to even make us consider staying a 25 man guild. I think 4-5 pieces + 2-3 tokens (and only if they're classless tokens) would be the minimum. Competing with 1 other person for 2/3 pieces of loot and 1 token with zero overhead is infinitely better than competing with 4-5 other people for 3 pieces and 2 tokens.
Voa 10/25 already have the same drop table, just different ilvl; which is what they're changing it to universally in Cata.
Instead of having totally different itemization/names for gear in 10/25 they'll be exactly the same names/itemization but one will be ilvl 300 and the 25's will be ilvl 315.
That's my take of it anyway.
EDIT: to Karenna, the post explicitly states that the gear will be the same but 25's will be a higher quality.
Quantity. Not Quality.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
EDIT: To me that just means it is even more likely that guilds will be split up due to this.
There is no way on earth I'm going to bother with a 25 when I can get just as good gear in a 10 as a 25; if I don't have to deal with all the nonsense in 25's and can enjoy the 10's.
Voa 10/25 already have the same drop table, just different ilvl; which is what they're changing it to universally in Cata.
Instead of having totally different itemization/names for gear in 10/25 they'll be exactly the same names/itemization but one will be ilvl 300 and the 25's will be ilvl 315.
That's my take of it anyway.
EDIT: to Karenna, the post explicitly states that the gear will be the same but 25's will be a higher quality.
I think the only discrepancy between gear and ilevel between same tiered raids will be normal/heroic.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Either way, one thing they've definitely got to do is make 25-man bosses drop 4 pieces again. I don't think this T10 (ICC and Toravon) 25-man boss only dropping 3 pieces shit will cut it in Cataclysm.
No argument at all on that point.
And does this mean VoAIDS 2.0 will have the same drop tables in 10 and 25 as well? If so, then I can imagine 25-mans for it being all but nonexistent (being done only by a guild 25-man raid at the start/end of a raid night).
I imagine so. People seem to really like the VoA10 "class runs" too (given most of the gear drops are class specific), so there'd be even more resistance to 25man.
By all rights to keep the incentive positive it should be 5 Pieces of gear, thats 1 Epic/5 Players and keeps the ratios equal between each tier.
Well, logically 10's will win purely by the loot numbers, if both versions drop the same ilvl gear.
IF it continues like it does now, where 2 pieces of gear drop per boss on 10's, you'd need to have 5 drop per boss on 25, to make them equal, right? I just don't see Blizzard doing that... Besides, even then the 10's will be 'easier', purely from a logistics point of view.
More badges will drop in 25-mans than in 10-mans, so even if its only 3-4 pieces, it'll still be worth doing over a 10 man. Especially if they make it so you get tier pieces from badges again.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
More badges will drop in 25-mans than in 10-mans, so even if its only 3-4 pieces, it'll still be worth doing over a 10 man. Especially if they make it so you get tier pieces from badges again.
That's a fair point, although I'm curious what sort of requirement tier peices will require in Cataclysm. If it's fairly substantial like right now, that would still help 25mans out.
Still, a lot of people probably prefer to deal with 10mans instead of 25man.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
So for my guild, and probably many that are in a similar boat, I think it's highly likely that one of two things will happen:
1)Multiple 10's will be made. 25's will be dropped. Folks who only showed for 25's to soak gear but don't want to commit to proper gearing and strats will give up on raiding and likely give up on the guild. Folks who like the 10's already will be happy with this change and will be happy with the guild
2)10's will be dropped, maybe one 10 will survive, and the guild tries to force 25's down everyones throat. (you can tell my obvious bias). Those who are already frustrated with the total lack of progression in 25's won't want to waste their time week after week getting nowhere because half the raid is only there to be carried and they will give up on the guild. The folks left will not be able to accomplish anything and the guild will fall apart entirely.
I could probably come up with some "middle ground" option too but those honestly seem like the two most likely outcomes for my guild and those like it.
More "hardcore" guilds that are stricter about raiding and are already successful in their 25's; yeah, totally different outcomes there.
OK, we're agreed then.
I still think a lot of guilds that try to become two 10-man guilds will end up butting hard into the drama and problems stemming from resentment/the lopsided raid issue, though. Again, this comes from my perspective of having been in guilds that fielded multiple 10-mans and had one being more successful than the other, which led to shit breaking down.
I also wonder if they're going to design some things to allow for a greater margin of error in 25-mans to account for the cat factor. More lenient berserk timers, less "spread out or get raped by targeted AoE" style abilities, etc.
Well, logically 10's will win purely by the loot numbers, if both versions drop the same ilvl gear.
IF it continues like it does now, where 2 pieces of gear drop per boss on 10's, you'd need to have 5 drop per boss on 25, to make them equal, right? I just don't see Blizzard doing that... Besides, even then the 10's will be 'easier', purely from a logistics point of view.
More badges will drop in 25-mans than in 10-mans, so even if its only 3-4 pieces, it'll still be worth doing over a 10 man. Especially if they make it so you get tier pieces from badges again.
We don't know for sure what the droprates will be for items and emblems...
...but if the 25 man raids only dropped 4 items, yet gave 100% more emblems (say you got 4 emblems per boss rather than 2)
...10 mans dropping 2 items per boss would still be the FAR superior way to gear up people!
I'm just waiting for the shit storm of "We're only getting two bosses down in 25s but my lesser geared alt is getting 4 down in 10s... let's stop doing 25s."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they give 25 mans a bit more lenience with distance between people for "spread out for AoE" fights.
IE: need to be 10 yards apart for 10 mans, but only 5 yards apart for 25 mans.
I can't see them getting rid of that type of raid damage entirely.
It'd be nice if instead of difficult they came up with fun and silly ideas for fights. Like more boat/saurfang/BQL/deathwhisper/dreamwalker and less rotface/festergut/putricide
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
25-man bosses dropping 4 items is a worse item:player ratio than 10-mans dropping 2 items, but in theory each item that drops in a 25-man has a lower chance of being wasted (not useful for any of the class/specs) present. I'm guessing that is the logic they will use and end up with 25-mans dropping 4 items (if it's less then they're completely retarded).
The only way to make 25's seem more desirable is to make 25's drop 3-4 items per boss, and 10's would have to be dropped to 1 per.
I highly doubt they'd make 10-man bosses drop only one item, unless they wanted to make sure no one bothered raiding in general. Or unless they doubled the amount of armor pieces available for each tier of emblem vendor, which I doubt they'll do either since they love their RNG lottery.
Eh, I'd even say deathwhisper is an overplayed fight mechanic.
But overall, yeah, new and interesting fight mechanics would be great.
You're right. But way better than rotface and putricide. Fester was okay, but seriously? Fuck that whole wing. The rest of ICC is fantastic except the plague wing.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they give 25 mans a bit more lenience with distance between people for "spread out for AoE" fights.
IE: need to be 10 yards apart for 10 mans, but only 5 yards apart for 25 mans.
I can't see them getting rid of that type of raid damage entirely.
It'd be nice if instead of difficult they came up with fun and silly ideas for fights. Like more boat/saurfang/BQL/deathwhisper/dreamwalker
You list BQL when that is one of the most ridiculous "stay spread out" fights there is. Easily up there with Blood Council and Arthas (defile that is) for the biggest "spread out" logistical nightmare on 25-mans.
As far as I can tell they aren't looking to do that though. Everything in that post screamed doing their best to ensure doing 10s or 25s is a choice for fun factor and not gear.
As far as I can tell they aren't looking to do that though. Everything in that post screamed doing their best to ensure doing 10s or 25s is a choice for fun factor and not gear.
Which is something I support with everything in me.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they give 25 mans a bit more lenience with distance between people for "spread out for AoE" fights.
IE: need to be 10 yards apart for 10 mans, but only 5 yards apart for 25 mans.
I can't see them getting rid of that type of raid damage entirely.
Right, I didn't say get rid of it entirely, but do something to tone it down because spreading out in 10-man fights is a joke compared to doing it in 25. Seriously, I can't think of a fight in 10-man in all of WotLK where the "spread out" mechanic isn't trivial compared to its 25-man counterpart.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if they give 25 mans a bit more lenience with distance between people for "spread out for AoE" fights.
IE: need to be 10 yards apart for 10 mans, but only 5 yards apart for 25 mans.
I can't see them getting rid of that type of raid damage entirely.
It'd be nice if instead of difficult they came up with fun and silly ideas for fights. Like more boat/saurfang/BQL/deathwhisper/dreamwalker and less rotface/festergut/putricide
Eh, I thought kiting on Rotface was fun, I could see how the actual boss tank and dps would be bored though. Putricide also was very different (the actual tanking of him, the abom, and way the fight ramped up each phase change).
I will agree festergut is very boring once you get past the "ohgodhowharddidhehitme" bit.
Posts
If 10man becomes the norm, whether you can survive the transition depends entirely on whether or not you already were fielding two 10mans. If a guild was able to do two 10mans successfully already, they'll continue as is.
Is the 15% buff coming this week? I think it should be, but I'm not sure. Maybe 15% will be enough to let us go back to killing Deathwhisper on HM.
ahahahah
I'm also assuming their balancing will be less than flawless, and there won't be any significant improvements to drop rate for 25man.
I can't remember when the 10% kicked in, if it was the week solidly into april, or right at the end of march.
I think it comes next week.
And regarding the earlier post; yeah we're talking about two types of guilds. I wasn't really disagreeing with you just saying my guild, as an example, is different. We don't field a successful 25. But we do have one really successful 10 and another pretty successful one. Granted we haven't downed the lich king in either but we're not about speed, so its no biggy. We'll get him down soon but that's besides the point.
I was just saying that while we, now, often have too many people for the 25's show up (a lot of new recruits; we'll see how long they stick around and such though), but its highly unsuccessful. The first night more than enough people show. The second and third nights either not enough people show or those who do are woefully unprepared and no progression is ever made.
Due to this I know there are many of the "raiders" in the guild that are totally put off by the 25's and consider the 10's the "real" raids. So for my guild, and probably many that are in a similar boat, I think it's highly likely that one of two things will happen:
1)Multiple 10's will be made. 25's will be dropped. Folks who only showed for 25's to soak gear but don't want to commit to proper gearing and strats will give up on raiding and likely give up on the guild. Folks who like the 10's already will be happy with this change and will be happy with the guild
2)10's will be dropped, maybe one 10 will survive, and the guild tries to force 25's down everyones throat. (you can tell my obvious bias). Those who are already frustrated with the total lack of progression in 25's won't want to waste their time week after week getting nowhere because half the raid is only there to be carried and they will give up on the guild. The folks left will not be able to accomplish anything and the guild will fall apart entirely.
I could probably come up with some "middle ground" option too but those honestly seem like the two most likely outcomes for my guild and those like it.
More "hardcore" guilds that are stricter about raiding and are already successful in their 25's; yeah, totally different outcomes there.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Either way, one thing they've definitely got to do is make 25-man bosses drop 4 pieces again. I don't think this T10 (ICC and Toravon) 25-man boss only dropping 3 pieces shit will cut it in Cataclysm.
And does this mean VoAIDS 2.0 will have the same drop tables in 10 and 25 as well? If so, then I can imagine 25-mans for it being all but nonexistent (being done only by a guild 25-man raid at the start/end of a raid night).
IF it continues like it does now, where 2 pieces of gear drop per boss on 10's, you'd need to have 5 drop per boss on 25, to make them equal, right? I just don't see Blizzard doing that... Besides, even then the 10's will be 'easier', purely from a logistics point of view.
The only way to make 25's seem more desirable is to make 25's drop 3-4 items per boss, and 10's would have to be dropped to 1 per. Which would make raiding 10's extremely undesirable.
Like others have said, my guild is at the point where we have a very solid 10 man core, and we barely are able to field a 25 man raid, mainly due to burnout attrition. This change will most likely cause the core raid to say, 'Thanks guys, but we're successful without you tag-alongs that only show up half the time...we're going 10's'
Instead of having totally different itemization/names for gear in 10/25 they'll be exactly the same names/itemization but one will be ilvl 300 and the 25's will be ilvl 315.
That's my take of it anyway.
EDIT: to Karenna, the post explicitly states that the gear will be the same but 25's will be a higher quality.
EDIT EDIT: Nevermind. I totally read that wrong. If they're the exact same stats and quality then that changes everything even more.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
No argument at all on that point.
I imagine so. People seem to really like the VoA10 "class runs" too (given most of the gear drops are class specific), so there'd be even more resistance to 25man.
Doesn't it say quantity?
Quantity. Not Quality.
EDIT: To me that just means it is even more likely that guilds will be split up due to this.
There is no way on earth I'm going to bother with a 25 when I can get just as good gear in a 10 as a 25; if I don't have to deal with all the nonsense in 25's and can enjoy the 10's.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
I think the only discrepancy between gear and ilevel between same tiered raids will be normal/heroic.
Note the specific use of "exact same items"
By all rights to keep the incentive positive it should be 5 Pieces of gear, thats 1 Epic/5 Players and keeps the ratios equal between each tier.
More badges will drop in 25-mans than in 10-mans, so even if its only 3-4 pieces, it'll still be worth doing over a 10 man. Especially if they make it so you get tier pieces from badges again.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Edit:
That's a fair point, although I'm curious what sort of requirement tier peices will require in Cataclysm. If it's fairly substantial like right now, that would still help 25mans out.
Still, a lot of people probably prefer to deal with 10mans instead of 25man.
I still think a lot of guilds that try to become two 10-man guilds will end up butting hard into the drama and problems stemming from resentment/the lopsided raid issue, though. Again, this comes from my perspective of having been in guilds that fielded multiple 10-mans and had one being more successful than the other, which led to shit breaking down.
I also wonder if they're going to design some things to allow for a greater margin of error in 25-mans to account for the cat factor. More lenient berserk timers, less "spread out or get raped by targeted AoE" style abilities, etc.
We don't know for sure what the droprates will be for items and emblems...
...but if the 25 man raids only dropped 4 items, yet gave 100% more emblems (say you got 4 emblems per boss rather than 2)
...10 mans dropping 2 items per boss would still be the FAR superior way to gear up people!
If you have enough for a 25m don't run two 10m (as guild sanctioned runs).
Guilds that raid together, stay together.
Well, they're the same items, stat-wise, was my meaning.
But for a third time, I misread the post and read "quality" when it said "quantity".
I understand this now.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
IE: need to be 10 yards apart for 10 mans, but only 5 yards apart for 25 mans.
I can't see them getting rid of that type of raid damage entirely.
It'd be nice if instead of difficult they came up with fun and silly ideas for fights. Like more boat/saurfang/BQL/deathwhisper/dreamwalker and less rotface/festergut/putricide
I highly doubt they'd make 10-man bosses drop only one item, unless they wanted to make sure no one bothered raiding in general. Or unless they doubled the amount of armor pieces available for each tier of emblem vendor, which I doubt they'll do either since they love their RNG lottery.
But overall, yeah, new and interesting fight mechanics would be great.
You're right. But way better than rotface and putricide. Fester was okay, but seriously? Fuck that whole wing. The rest of ICC is fantastic except the plague wing.
Which is something I support with everything in me.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Eh, I thought kiting on Rotface was fun, I could see how the actual boss tank and dps would be bored though. Putricide also was very different (the actual tanking of him, the abom, and way the fight ramped up each phase change).
I will agree festergut is very boring once you get past the "ohgodhowharddidhehitme" bit.