The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Down with the Ship?
ANTVGM64
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Howdy all, I come to you with a damned if I do, damned if I don't, kind of question.
I'm currently in a class that has us putting together a Television Pilot, and it appears to be going to all hell. Everyone is disorganized, the important details are continually left out, and while I attempt to fix these things from my position of lowly peon in the hierachy of jobs, I can't help but feel a little trapped.
Here's Why:
Essentially it's two Executive Producers who delegate various tasks to the other students in the class. The two EPs, I believe, kinda disregard me because I'm a bit weird, I guess, so as a result I'm stuck kind of raising my hand, asking questions that get ignored or "We'll get to that later" (which we don't).
We shoot our first scene this weekend and I refuse to believe we're ready. Our script features a shot of a character watching a TV, and our producer has decided we do not need to see the TV, instead just a clicker, which is stupid, because the character is sitting at a kitchen table that's pretty far away from the TV, so we'd have to see it otherwise think he's hearing these things in his head, which he's not.
Another example is we need about 6 dozen Obits from the newspaper cut out and pasted to a fridge. Upon asking a producer who is responsible, I get a cryptic voice mail saying "Just uh, call me back" which gives me high hopes for getting screwed into bitch work.
In addition a variety of props/extra suits and other things are needed that I fully believe are NOT being attended too as they should. Also, all the work I've done, breaking down the script, identifying what props are needed, wardrobe consideration, is overlooked when people ask questions in regards to props and wardrobe, as if they never read the damn breakdown.
So I find myself stuck. The project is going to shit, and I refuse to spend all this money for a class that could produce the Ed Wood of class projects.
We have a producer who talks in cryptic "Look, I need to talk to you" voice messages, another one who doesn't call actors on time, and a third who thinks that ignoring problems makes them go away.
Oh, and I can't say "Retarded" in class.
So guys, what do I do? Do I suck it up, let it crash and burn then say "I told you so" or do I do a bunch of EXTRA work that is going to go largely un noticed because it's seven other people's job?
I'm currently in a class that has us putting together a Television Pilot, and it appears to be going to all hell. Everyone is disorganized, the important details are continually left out, and while I attempt to fix these things from my position of lowly peon in the hierachy of jobs, I can't help but feel a little trapped.
Here's Why:
Essentially it's two Executive Producers who delegate various tasks to the other students in the class. The two EPs, I believe, kinda disregard me because I'm a bit weird, I guess, so as a result I'm stuck kind of raising my hand, asking questions that get ignored or "We'll get to that later" (which we don't).
We shoot our first scene this weekend and I refuse to believe we're ready. Our script features a shot of a character watching a TV, and our producer has decided we do not need to see the TV, instead just a clicker, which is stupid, because the character is sitting at a kitchen table that's pretty far away from the TV, so we'd have to see it otherwise think he's hearing these things in his head, which he's not.
Another example is we need about 6 dozen Obits from the newspaper cut out and pasted to a fridge. Upon asking a producer who is responsible, I get a cryptic voice mail saying "Just uh, call me back" which gives me high hopes for getting screwed into bitch work.
In addition a variety of props/extra suits and other things are needed that I fully believe are NOT being attended too as they should. Also, all the work I've done, breaking down the script, identifying what props are needed, wardrobe consideration, is overlooked when people ask questions in regards to props and wardrobe, as if they never read the damn breakdown.
So I find myself stuck. The project is going to shit, and I refuse to spend all this money for a class that could produce the Ed Wood of class projects.
We have a producer who talks in cryptic "Look, I need to talk to you" voice messages, another one who doesn't call actors on time, and a third who thinks that ignoring problems makes them go away.
Oh, and I can't say "Retarded" in class.
So guys, what do I do? Do I suck it up, let it crash and burn then say "I told you so" or do I do a bunch of EXTRA work that is going to go largely un noticed because it's seven other people's job?
Blog: MeekinOnMovies.BlogSpot.com
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
ANTVGM64 on
0
Posts
And then when they ask why it failed so miserably point the finger firmly in their direction. It is their fault, save all the notes of your numerous attempts to get resolution for the problems that you have brought up countless times but had no authority to control
then focus solely on your areas. Do no extra work
Just CYA and, to reinforce how awful they are, show up when this thing implodes with all the evidence of how badly they fucked all this up
Something like this happened when I was in Uni. I did 90% of the work, and got a much higher mark than anyone else in my team,because I made it obvious I did most of it.
Basically, what you gotta do is talk to the other people in your project, not just the producers. What do they think? If you're the only one with complaints the problem might be with you and not with the project. Just go with it and don't do more work than required.
When in meetings don't go quiet the moment someone tells you it's not important. Explain to them why it is important and let them tell you why they think its not. Everyone else should be involved as well, not just you talking to one guy and everyone else texting or staring out the window.
Not knowing what the course requirements are it's entirely possible that you're being too much of a perfectionist, is it important that the little details are right, or do you just have to show an idea to your teachers?
About that shot with the TV: if there's typical TV-noises there and someone is staring off-screen with a remote control in his hands I think everyone knows that he's watching TV.
Now your goal is to cover your own ass and most importantly - salvage your grade.
From your story it looks like you do understand the nuances of how to set up a performance piece with warddrobes, props, etc. I mean, you learned that much from the class.
Now just document your attempts with dates from when you called these people, when you pointed out things that other people were doing.
If you wanted you could sling an e-mail on the sly to your professor to let he/she know what's going on and you're not taking responsiblity with your grade for their fuckups.
Unrelated, from here in Chicago are you? I went to NIU.
EDIT: This advice on getting your on grade protected only works if you guys are given one large 'group effort' grade and not individually. If it's just one big grade then you're going to have to suck itup, but I'd still let the professor know that the rest of them are getting graded on your work.
This is exactly how it works in real life
When you're told to do something stupid, and you know you can do it better, but you're refused from changing it/ would be forced to carry the burden all on your own and someone else will get all the credit for your work, you do what you're told to do because if you don't, either a) someone will get mad you overstepped your boundaries and get you shitcanned/put on bitch detail, b) take all the credit, making your contributions practically worthless c) both
Not really.
In real life if someone isn't doing their job or things are going down the drain you bring that up with your boss or in a meeting and you try to find a solution to salvage the project. The OP is not an office drone, he's a student in a group with peers who got the assignment to make a movie together. Just because someone got pointed to be the producer, that doesn't mean he can just nod along and go "their fault!" later on. You're supposed to work together on equal footing.
*e: assuming that's the assignment of course.
But it's hard to give advice if we don't know what the syllabus is for the class and what the grading criteria is. If it's supposed to be like this, and you're graded on the final group deliverable, then that's different from having a separate assignment that is reliant on your experiences. As just one example.
So we spend about two hours setting up the shooting schedule when we don't have locations finalized, so it all changes again and negates the two hours that was done.
Another thing is that In all my prior projects I was used to being in charge or having some level of imput outside of "oh, I can do that if you want".
The class works as follows:
In the spring there's a class where a bunch of students pitch ideas. One idea gets picked to be produced in the fall.
During the summer JTerm, people are supposed to do Prepro work. Scout Locations, hire actors, etc. For whatever reason, this never happened.
I come in to this class in the fall. We already have people who have been mucking the whole thing since Spring, disorganized, cancelling shoots, and so on.
It's just such a convoluted mess that no one has a sense of what their doing. I have all my stuff documented: Breakdown, Script Edits, I found two of the actor's we're using, and have coordinated their schedules because our Actor Liason waits until about a day before to call actors.
I'm terrifically frustrated with this entire thing. The worst part is the fact that this class isn't so much about a grade, but more about having a final project we can use for our reel.
And it sucks for me because I have great ideas and work ethic, but with technical stuff, I suck ass, so this was really the first chance I had to work with people who knew what they were doing on the camera/lighting/ side of the fence.
This is the best thing in my reel right now, and I don't think I should be showing it to folk
So I guess I'm going to keep doing my job.
Another problem is that our teachers act as "Network" so they can answer questions, but we should be asking our Two EPs. When they dislike an idea, they tell us to ask network, versus, ya know, saying they dislike an idea because everyone is avoidant in our wonderful little school.
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
I'm thinking about pulling a "The Wire" and just doing everything I can behind everyone's back to garuntee a better product, fuck the chain of command, etc.
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
I would talk to your teacher and tell them basically what you've said here and get their input before doing anything drastic. Either the teacher will know that you're doing what you can and will hopefully help you out or at least make note of it when the final product sucks and grade you appropriately (not always, some teachers are just dicks and if the end product sucks, it sucks, you get an F, it doesn't matter how hard you worked) or the teacher may tell you that you're overreacting and can help you relax about the project a bit.
Honestly, I suspect it will be some combination of the 2 options. Based on many years of working in an office, it's a safe bet than many of the people are incompetent and/or lazy. It also sounds like you've got a bit of an "I'm used to being in charge. Now I'm not and they're not doing it how I would if I were in charge, therefore it's wrong" attitude. When it seems like everyone except you is stupid and doing it wrong, it's usually time to take a step back and re-evaluate things to make sure you're not being too stubborn yourself (I know, I get this way myself. I'm sure we all do.).
Frankly, looking at the sample of work you posted, I'm not entirely sure you are in a position to make this project "better." This is what group work is all about. You're part of a team, not the lone ranger. And if you think this sucks, wait until you have a real job in the world of production.
Always worked for me.
You should be somewhat pro-active about problems you can see happening in the future. Just as an example, that obits thing would take very little time to just clip some and have them stashed in a folder *just in case*. I understand that you don't believe in your executive producers. If this is the kind of task where you are all given roles to fulfill, just make sure that you're doing the best possible job at your role and if you have time left over after that, then help out where you see someone else might be having a little trouble.
Don't let your attitude poison the work environment for everyone else. There's nothing worse than a project where noone believes in the leadership and only produces a half assed result in everything they do because of that. I'm sure your reasons for not trusting your EPs to do their parts is valid, but if I'm reading right it's their ass if everything goes to shit, right?
Your outlook is adorable, it's like you live in a world where hard work is valued more than the appearance of hard work. As he's repeatedly stated this project is pretty much doomed at this stage, it's too far gone to be salvaged by him rolling up his sleeves and even if he did his sleeves would have to be rolled for 17+ people at once.
So basically what you're advising is an exercise in futility, his best course of action here is to have the paperwork and records to show that he performed his section of the project proficiently and that his attempts to salvage it fell on deaf ears of the producers.
hey hey hey
Paul
Do you have a digital camera we can bring to the set to get hair/wardrobe/cast/crew/pictures
Producer1:
Yes.
Paul
sweet, Thanks.
Producer1:
It's always on me. No need to worry.
Paul:
Well in these early going stages
You kinda got bunked into locations and that shitty stuff
but I mean, once we got that shit locked down it's more individual responsibility
now so there's that, you're just producing tomorrow then you're free for a bit. Take a bubble bath.
Producer1
Paul, it's handled for now. If it comes up later, that's why we have class. Get some sleep. Lord knows we'll need it for the long day ahead of us.
Really, Really?!
(And I know I spelled experience wrong: As I said I'm bad at the editing/technical stuff, so I know it sucks!)
Facebook: MeekinOnMovies
Twitter: Twitter.com/MeekinOnMovies
My 10 commandments of game reviewing
7 Great Games Playing Watch_Dogs will remind you of/url]
Far Cry 4: 10 Essential Features it Must Have
10 Videogames Ruined By The Hype
Reading your account of things reminds me a lot of the project I did at the end of my undergraduate (public relations) major; it was a huge CF for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was compartmentalized teams across several programs destroying any kind of accountability. Fortunately our grade didn't rely upon the final deliverable and we were able to work with our professor and the MBA prof "above" us so that everyone knew we were at least trying to do our part (whether the MBA students "above" us ultimately failed I have no idea.)
This isn't real life, the people involved aren't real professionals, the purpose is at least in part educational, and the ultimate outcome for you really shouldn't depend (at least, not entirely) on the fact that the producer-students don't have their shit together. This means that it is completely appropriate to go to the professor and say "I have issues with the organization of the project and I'm not sure how to succeed in the role I have been assigned." The professor probably already has some idea of what is going on.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
I didn't get that either. Frankly, it just cements my opinion that this is just a huge overreaction.
I don't think that post is trying to get across that hard work is valued, I think the point is to show that he has discipline and resilience. If you can remain calm under stress and manage your time to the point where you're helping others you can consider yourself a valuable employee.
I suppose you're half right, there are some employers that don't value anything and just give their friends promotions, but in what I'd imagine is a stressful work environment it's key to have the most experienced and dedicated employees you can.
Edit: removed terrible advice, found in quote below.
1 person, 17 people's worth of work.
I'll leave my original point about the industry standing though.
He is responsible for his and only his work. He can help out others where he sees fit, but his work has to get done to the best of his ability.
If you are being graded for the part you are suppose to be doing (ie not director, producer, cameraman etc) then do that awesome and to hell with everyone else.
ANTVGM, what's the problem in that quote? You asked the guy if he had what he needed, he told you yes, he has what it needs and everything is under control. What more could you want?