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Korean gamers are hardcore. Baby killin's and all.

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    DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Did some dude on WoW actually poopsock? I thought that was just an untrue joke.

    Poopsocking has been discussed since EQ1. If there's an original foundation to it it's much older than WoW.

    Darkewolfe on
    What is this I don't even.
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    MachismoMachismo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Rent wrote: »
    Yeah, this is no less or more stupid than praying your child back to life as opposed to, say, bringing them to the doctor

    Unfortunately one of these two sets of parents will be punished and one won't

    Hmmm

    Well, praying a child back to life implies that the child is dead. A doctor tends not to help much then.

    If you mean that their lack of action caused the death because they thought prayer would fix it, last several occassions I heard about resulted in some jail time. Additionally, some parents did an exorcism in Texas a year ago and both got jailed because the child suffocated from them holding pillows on him or her.

    Machismo on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I'm seeing a lot of knee-jerk "This has nothing to do with video games addiction happens to everything" type hand-wringing in this thread.

    I think some of y'all is defensive about stories like this and are as quick as possible to distance the people who do these things from "gamers" because you like video games and don't need another Jack Thompson latching onto this shit and breathing down your necks.

    Which is understandable, but gaming addiction is a very real thing, even when people aren't dying from it. And you can try to say "well, the people who get addicted to gaming would get addicted to anything, they're just like that!"

    But you're wrong. Period. If you subscribe to the "it's an addictive personality" mindset you're wrong and living in psychology's past. The realities are far more complicated.

    For a person to be an addict, there's a myriad of factors in their life that contribute to that addiction, and one of them is the nature of the substance or activity they are addicted to. You will find psychological and social commonalities in nearly all addicts, but you will also find commonalities in the substances and activities they become addicted to as well.

    It is worth questioning and studying the addictive properties of things like online games, especially online social environments like Second Life, World of Warcraft, and PRIUS.

    To be dismissive of cases like this as if it could be about anything and you could just mad-libs any substance or activity instead of the online game is to ignore the reality that there are perhaps issues with the way online social environments are designed and used.

    Does that make it the "fault" of the game that these people were horrid addicts that neglected a human being? No, no more than it is the "fault" of heroin that a bunch of junkies lay around a filthy house and let a baby starve to death while they sit there tripping.

    But the substance or activity is a factor. While it is true a person can become addicted to almost anything, some things are more addictive than others and encourage behaviors and activities that will contribute more to the addiction.

    Anyone who says that World of Warcraft, for example, doesn't have deliberately designed addictive elements that are designed to keep you playing the game as much as possible is lying to you. They are either ignorant or deceptive or both. Does it mean that it's WoW's "fault" that people get addicted to it? Not necessarily.

    But it does mean that these qualities should be questioned. There is a point where the onus comes on to the people who create and maintain these games to discourage this sort of behavior and to stop including game mechanics or environmental pressures to foster addiction. Game developers and publishers should be called out on these things. To say "Hey, that game mechanic you introduced to get people to play for six hours a day is probably not a good call" doesn't absolve the addicts of responsibility for their addiction, but it does acknowledge that maybe the developers could be helping here.

    Take a step back from being a "gamer" for a second, if that's what you're getting defensive about. Take a step back and look at the circumstances: a couple who met through an environment had a child and neglected that child in favor of their online lives, and digital child. You can say "Those people were addicts, addicts are fucked up" all you want but you shouldn't overlook that the online life these people were leading was preferable, for them, than their real life and real child. Maybe there are reasons for that that have something to do with the game itself, and maybe those should also be examined when understanding these sorts of problems?

    Pony on
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    tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    -SPI- wrote: »
    proXimity wrote: »
    There's a joke in here somewhere about people dying from Toyota's products...

    A toyota is like a korean gamer, they just don't know when to stop. ???

    I admit. I laughed.

    I saw some blurb about this, but never saw the country of orgin. I figured it was Korea because all their stuff gets blown up and thrown in every other country's face as basis for the evil of videogames.

    Didn't they crackdown on time spent on videogame or any online entertainment over there? Maybe I'm thinking of China.

    tallgeeze on
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    MachismoMachismo Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I'm not so sure - the baby dying because the parents were addicted to something as silly as videogames makes the whole thing more tragic. If the parents were addicted to heroin and half-conscious so they couldn't remember they had a baby, that's terrible. Substance abuse. But addiction to videogames is even worse - a videogame addict can't shake the draw of games but you'd think they'd get up and regularly feed pets and babies and such.

    If you're addicted to something it impedes your normal life to the point where it becomes your life. It doesn't matter if it's drugs or a computer game. There's deep mental issues at play in any addiction case.

    I think anything can be addictive. From drugs, alcohol, and such that are chemically to TV, books, Internet, entertainment, video games, porn that are behaviorally addictive (endorphins and such are still involved).

    Face it. If there is something remotely pleasureable about the act, it can be addictive. (Including religion and politics, which I like to point out to some of my more active friends).

    Machismo on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Machismo wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I'm not so sure - the baby dying because the parents were addicted to something as silly as videogames makes the whole thing more tragic. If the parents were addicted to heroin and half-conscious so they couldn't remember they had a baby, that's terrible. Substance abuse. But addiction to videogames is even worse - a videogame addict can't shake the draw of games but you'd think they'd get up and regularly feed pets and babies and such.

    If you're addicted to something it impedes your normal life to the point where it becomes your life. It doesn't matter if it's drugs or a computer game. There's deep mental issues at play in any addiction case.

    I think anything can be addictive. From drugs, alcohol, and such that are chemically to TV, books, Internet, entertainment, video games, porn that are behaviorally addictive (endorphins and such are still involved).

    Face it. If there is something remotely pleasureable about the act, it can be addictive. (Including religion and politics, which I like to point out to some of my more active friends).

    This is reductionist.

    And doesn't acknowledge that while all things are potentially addictive, they are not all equally potentially addictive.

    Some things are more addictive than others. Socially, chemically, the reasons are complicated but the reasons exist and can be identified. That is a discussion that deserves being had.

    Online games and online social environments have strong addictive properties and those should be talked about. Specific games and environments are worse for this than others, and those should be talked about too.

    There are also cultural factors, which make a thing like this more addictive in some cultures versus others, and that's a discussion worth having as well.

    Pony on
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    CorbiusCorbius Shepard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Also, in Korea this game addiction is not really viewed as its own thing. Discussions I've seen about game addiction also talk about a general "internet addiction" that happens a lot in Korea too.

    Every once in a while, the news (at least the English news I read) will reference someone talking about how much time Koreans spend online, how that impacts their work productivity, study habits, and social lives.

    Corbius on
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    Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    the strangest thing about this is that there were two parents involved.

    like i can totally see how one unstable person could kind of get obsessed with some silly thing and neglect their baby.

    but this was two human adults who got so fascinated with a baby sim that they let their real baby starve to death.

    A testament to PRIUS' quality? Yesterday I wouldn't have cared but now I kinda want to see what this game is all about ...

    I think they need to add a parenting achievement. Maybe you get a sweet bit of epic loot if your doctor provides you with an unlock code or something.

    Caveman Paws on
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    KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Did some dude on WoW actually poopsock? I thought that was just an untrue joke.

    Poopsocking has been discussed since EQ1. If there's an original foundation to it it's much older than WoW.

    Right. But I didn't think someone actually did it.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
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    tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    gah, poopsocks D: Now my mind is actually trying to comprehend how that works without some sort of spillage.

    Thx, guys.

    tallgeeze on
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    NoquarNoquar Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I wanted to post something constructive, but I find myself just feeling a lot of rage. I have twin 5 1/2 month olds, but even before they were born I felt enraged when I saw the things people do to their children/families because of neglect, addictions, depression, and so on. I simply cannot wrap my mind around it enough to comprehend.

    Noquar on
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Take a step back from being a "gamer" for a second, if that's what you're getting defensive about. Take a step back and look at the circumstances: a couple who met through an environment had a child and neglected that child in favor of their online lives, and digital child. You can say "Those people were addicts, addicts are fucked up" all you want but you shouldn't overlook that the online life these people were leading was preferable, for them, than their real life and real child. Maybe there are reasons for that that have something to do with the game itself, and maybe those should also be examined when understanding these sorts of problems?
    Before we go down this path, I'd be curious to know if the incidence of child neglect among gamers is any different than the population as a whole.

    Are gamers more dangeorus to their kids than some other comparable group of people? I doubt there's any reliable evidence either pro or con.

    Modern Man on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Take a step back from being a "gamer" for a second, if that's what you're getting defensive about. Take a step back and look at the circumstances: a couple who met through an environment had a child and neglected that child in favor of their online lives, and digital child. You can say "Those people were addicts, addicts are fucked up" all you want but you shouldn't overlook that the online life these people were leading was preferable, for them, than their real life and real child. Maybe there are reasons for that that have something to do with the game itself, and maybe those should also be examined when understanding these sorts of problems?
    Before we go down this path, I'd be curious to know if the incidence of child neglect among gamers is any different than the population as a whole.

    Are gamers more dangeorus to their kids than some other comparable group of people? I doubt there's any reliable evidence either pro or con.

    I have no idea, although that has fully nothing to do with what I am saying so I am wondering why you are bringing it up at all!

    Pony on
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Take a step back from being a "gamer" for a second, if that's what you're getting defensive about. Take a step back and look at the circumstances: a couple who met through an environment had a child and neglected that child in favor of their online lives, and digital child. You can say "Those people were addicts, addicts are fucked up" all you want but you shouldn't overlook that the online life these people were leading was preferable, for them, than their real life and real child. Maybe there are reasons for that that have something to do with the game itself, and maybe those should also be examined when understanding these sorts of problems?
    Before we go down this path, I'd be curious to know if the incidence of child neglect among gamers is any different than the population as a whole.

    Are gamers more dangeorus to their kids than some other comparable group of people? I doubt there's any reliable evidence either pro or con.

    I have no idea, although that has fully nothing to do with what I am saying so I am wondering why you are bringing it up at all!
    You seem to be arguing that vidoe games, especially MMO's, have addictive features. I don't disagree. The relevant question, though, is what is the end result of that potential addictiveness? Does it lead to significant numbers of dead kids and chicks sucking cock to pay for in-game gold? Or are we talking about a miniscule problem, in the grand scheme of things?

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Take a step back from being a "gamer" for a second, if that's what you're getting defensive about. Take a step back and look at the circumstances: a couple who met through an environment had a child and neglected that child in favor of their online lives, and digital child. You can say "Those people were addicts, addicts are fucked up" all you want but you shouldn't overlook that the online life these people were leading was preferable, for them, than their real life and real child. Maybe there are reasons for that that have something to do with the game itself, and maybe those should also be examined when understanding these sorts of problems?
    Before we go down this path, I'd be curious to know if the incidence of child neglect among gamers is any different than the population as a whole.

    Are gamers more dangeorus to their kids than some other comparable group of people? I doubt there's any reliable evidence either pro or con.

    I have no idea, although that has fully nothing to do with what I am saying so I am wondering why you are bringing it up at all!
    You seem to be arguing that vidoe games, especially MMO's, have addictive features. I don't disagree. The relevant question, though, is what is the end result of that potential addictiveness? Does it lead to significant numbers of dead kids and chicks sucking cock to pay for in-game gold? Or are we talking about a miniscule problem, in the grand scheme of things?

    And I'm saying, that isn't what I'm talking about, so okay!

    We're talking about different things!

    That happens.

    Pony on
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    EliminationElimination Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    corky842 wrote: »
    Corbius wrote: »
    The Korean news is reporting on this death in the context of a larger "game addiction" thing, also talking about a guy who killed his mother because she was nagging him for playing some game.

    But yeah, its only getting any extra attention because of the game aspect. There is plenty of child neglect happening everywhere everyday.

    That's really what i was gearing for with the post. Was more along the lines of how people can become -that- addicted to online games. I also dont understand why this stuff always happens in Korea and not over in NA. We have a lot of online gaming here too. It just seems we are not quite as hardcore. I guess it also doesn't help that many Korean online games are set up in a way that the player has to "grind" everything for long periods of time to progress. Over here people generally like to do some quests and have fun and log out in my experience.

    I wonder how that difference in the mentality behind online gaming between the two cultures sprung up? I mean grindy games tend not to do well here, but thats all they want over there.

    That isn't true. It would seem that when people kill over a game it depends on the type of game they play.

    I think Elimination meant that people kill when they get pissed off in NA, where in Korea people die because they forget about food.

    Pretty much this. I here about people in Asian countries dying over game addictions pretty regularly. Over here we must just be behind the times, shooting/stabbing/beating each other to death. Maybe we should just settle our differences with endurance gaming marathons and see who drops dead first.

    Elimination on
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Korea ain't no goddamn casual.

    Panda4You on
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    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I agree with Pony's longer elaboration of what I basically said.

    Henroid on
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    nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Even if you're normally repelled by Cracked's list/dick-laden humor, as a longtime PWOT fan I am obligated to recommend David Wong's latest article. It's not the first thing he's written that betrays his skepticism of MMOs, nor is it particularly even-handed, much less erudite, but it's good for a chuckle or two and the links are fascinating.

    I agree with Pony, sort of, inasmuch as I think that we'd do well to seriously examine "problem games" and not just "problem gamers," and that our understanding of the mechanisms that provoke addiction to games is sadly lacking and deserving of further research. I absolutely agree with Pony's contention that we, as gamers, are prone to a reactive and ill-conceived rejection of the very idea that games could bear any responsibility for the destructive behavior of their players.

    At the same time, I am extremely wary of any legislative or even communal actions taken to protect gamers from themselves. I wouldn't trust the ESRB or anything like it to get it right, and if congress poked its head into this it might even be worth it, if only for the nigh-guaranteed hilarity ensuing.

    I think that broadly speaking, right now there's a lot of alarmism and not a lot of substance to this problem. Out of a population where gamers are rapidly becoming (or already are) the majority, there just aren't that many instances of genuinely destructive gaming addiction relative to, say, gambling addiction. But don't take that as implying that resources devoted to understanding this problem are better allocated elsewhere, much less wasted. We have every reason to believe that the only direction gaming addiction is trending is upwards.

    nescientist on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Even if you're normally repelled by Cracked's list/dick-laden humor, as a longtime PWOT fan I am obligated to recommend David Wong's latest article. It's not the first thing he's written that betrays his skepticism of MMOs, nor is it particularly even-handed, much less erudite, but it's good for a chuckle or two and the links are fascinating.

    I agree with Pony, sort of, inasmuch as I think that we'd do well to seriously examine "problem games" and not just "problem gamers," and that our understanding of the mechanisms that provoke addiction to games is sadly lacking and deserving of further research. I absolutely agree with Pony's contention that we, as gamers, are prone to a reactive and ill-conceived rejection of the very idea that games could bear any responsibility for the destructive behavior of their players.

    At the same time, I am extremely wary of any legislative or even communal actions taken to protect gamers from themselves. I wouldn't trust the ESRB or anything like it to get it right, and if congress poked its head into this it might even be worth it, if only for the nigh-guaranteed hilarity ensuing.

    I think that broadly speaking, right now there's a lot of alarmism and not a lot of substance to this problem. Out of a population where gamers are rapidly becoming (or already are) the majority, there just aren't that many instances of genuinely destructive gaming addiction relative to, say, gambling addiction. But don't take that as implying that resources devoted to understanding this problem are better allocated elsewhere, much less wasted. We have every reason to believe that the only direction gaming addiction is trending is upwards.

    It's certainly, at the very least, something that bears analysis and discussion within the consumer base (ie, us) and is something that deserves to be talked about in a thread like this one.

    Just so long as we can keep the discussion level oriented around the fact that this isn't about blaming gamers, or really pointing fingers at anyone in particular. It's about acknowledge contributing factors to an alarming problem that is real and, as the internet and gaming and online social environments continue to grow and be a part of more people's lives, will only increase in size (if not severity).

    Pony on
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    CorbiusCorbius Shepard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Well, in that case, what would the design for an MMO that is fun but minimizes or somehow controls these addictive qualities?

    Going on the behavioral psych/reinforcement curve stuff in that Cracked article, do we change the reinforcement schedule?

    Different reinforcement patterns produce different behavior patterns. The random one that stuff like WOW has now (any particular boss could drop that loot you want) produces that constant high response.

    Would a game that provides loot after a random set of time passes be better? This tends to produce a slower, but consistent rate of response.


    Image to show different responses to different reinforcement patterns. VR is current WOW pattern, VI is a random time.
    275px-Schedule_of_reinforcement.png

    Corbius on
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    nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think WoW is held up as the standard for an addictive game because of its popularity and not much else, frankly. From the very beginning with the introduction of the rest system, there have been mechanisms present that are clear counterexamples to any claim that Blizzard was designing the game from the ground up to suck as much time as possible. Even the badges that Wong complains about were originally introduced specifically to address the concern that random loot (IE variable-ratio rewards, as BF Skinner would have it) was a suspect mechanic.

    But far and away the simplest reason that Blizzard does not want you to play for eight hours a day is that they don't make any more money. You don't pay by the hour, you pay by the month, and if you play less, the only consequence Activision Blizzard suffers is a marginal reduction in the bandwidth they pay for. You could argue that in order to keep that subscription going from month to month it's in their advantage to keep players "hooked," but my anecdotal experience has been that the people who are logged in 24/7 burn out quicker than the ones who still haven't hit 80.

    Now, I by no means intend to argue that WoW isn't addictive. I played it for years and years and of course I know better. But rather, I think it's important to understand that people aren't getting addicted to some kind of fucking super-crack, here; Blizzard is not an expert team of ex-Nazi behavioral scientists working at a blistering pace to perfect the ultimate in anti-nerd weaponry. They're a game company with a profit motive based on a monthly fee, but despite efforts (perhaps inadequate efforts, but genuine ones nonetheless) to the contrary they've produced something that destroys lives.

    So when you start seeing shit like ZT Online take off, you should be worried. If a company who has no profit motive in creating a legion of poopsocking zombies chained to their PCs creates "the most addictive game ever," what do you think is going to happen with a payment system like ZT's that makes the problem gamers the best customers?

    nescientist on
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    krapst78krapst78 Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Actually, in Asia you'll find it common for users to pay for WoW by time instead of a monthly subscription. When The9 was running WoW in China, purchasing by time was the only option. Also, the Chinese government mandated anti-fatigue system is only applied to users under 18. Users over the age of 18 can play until their eyeballs fall out with no detriment to their character's effectiveness in a game.

    krapst78 on
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    nescientistnescientist Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    krapst78 wrote: »
    Actually, in Asia you'll find it common for users to pay for WoW by time instead of a monthly subscription. When The9 was running WoW in China, purchasing by time was the only option. Also, the Chinese government mandated anti-fatigue system is only applied to users under 18. Users over the age of 18 can play until their eyeballs fall out with no detriment to their character's effectiveness in a game.

    I didn't know that about Chinese WoW payments; when I referred to a "rest system," though, I was talking about something implemented in the US version that effectively gives non-poopsockers double XP.

    nescientist on
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    Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    krapst78 wrote: »
    Actually, in Asia you'll find it common for users to pay for WoW by time instead of a monthly subscription. When The9 was running WoW in China, purchasing by time was the only option. Also, the Chinese government mandated anti-fatigue system is only applied to users under 18. Users over the age of 18 can play until their eyeballs fall out with no detriment to their character's effectiveness in a game.

    I think the bolded above is a critically important factor. It's easy to get obsessed with something if you pay "by the hour" and thus you cram as much gaming as you can into the few hours you can afford.

    I am curious though, how common it is to have MMO players play at a Net Cafe, instead of at home on a PC.

    As someone who's played a few MMOs (and many an "addictive" game in general) I can attest to how playing at home has some advantages: I can do laundry while playing, for example. It also has some potential disadvantages, i.e. no getting out of the house for a full day if you're not careful.

    EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can circumvent the "don't play so much" purpose of Rest EXP in WoW by simply playing on another character, right?

    Curly_Brace on
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    frandelgearslipfrandelgearslip 457670Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    corky842 wrote: »
    Corbius wrote: »
    The Korean news is reporting on this death in the context of a larger "game addiction" thing, also talking about a guy who killed his mother because she was nagging him for playing some game.

    But yeah, its only getting any extra attention because of the game aspect. There is plenty of child neglect happening everywhere everyday.

    That's really what i was gearing for with the post. Was more along the lines of how people can become -that- addicted to online games. I also dont understand why this stuff always happens in Korea and not over in NA. We have a lot of online gaming here too. It just seems we are not quite as hardcore. I guess it also doesn't help that many Korean online games are set up in a way that the player has to "grind" everything for long periods of time to progress. Over here people generally like to do some quests and have fun and log out in my experience.

    I wonder how that difference in the mentality behind online gaming between the two cultures sprung up? I mean grindy games tend not to do well here, but thats all they want over there.

    That isn't true. It would seem that when people kill over a game it depends on the type of game they play.

    I think Elimination meant that people kill when they get pissed off in NA, where in Korea people die because they forget about food.

    Pretty much this. I here about people in Asian countries dying over game addictions pretty regularly. Over here we must just be behind the times, shooting/stabbing/beating each other to death. Maybe we should just settle our differences with endurance gaming marathons and see who drops dead first.

    Exactly, people kill other people over stupid crap all the time. People have murdered over sneakers, so its no big deal that people have killed over video games. But its a whole different level of crazy when you die from exhaustion while playing a video game, because you can't take any time to sleep or eat.

    MMOs are particularly bad because they don't require hand eye coordination. Nobody is going to die playing halo or modern warfare, because their hand eye skills will eventually decrease enough that they will have to quit playing, a built in safety measure.

    frandelgearslip on
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    CorbiusCorbius Shepard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Playing at the cafe (or PC room) seems to be the most common way, at least in Korea, for people to play games.

    Granted, I have no real evidence to support that, other then the fact that there are multiple PC rooms in seemingly every neighborhood in this country.

    Corbius on
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    Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can circumvent the "don't play so much" purpose of Rest EXP in WoW by simply playing on another character, right?

    Yeah, and since leveling is such a small portion of the game, the rest system has no long term impact anyway. I think they only put it in as a measure to reduce server load in the early days of WoW when there were too few servers and they all were overpopulated.

    Bliss 101 on
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can circumvent the "don't play so much" purpose of Rest EXP in WoW by simply playing on another character, right?

    Yeah, and since leveling is such a small portion of the game, the rest system has no long term impact anyway. I think they only put it in as a measure to reduce server load in the early days of WoW when there were too few servers and they all were overpopulated.

    No, they did it so that people who played infrequently got a boost to leveling faster.

    Most of WoWs mechanics are designed so that people DON'T have to play 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's one of the big secrets to it's success.

    shryke on
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    Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Robot Girl Mimiga VillageRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Bliss 101 wrote: »
    EDIT: I'm pretty sure you can circumvent the "don't play so much" purpose of Rest EXP in WoW by simply playing on another character, right?

    Yeah, and since leveling is such a small portion of the game, the rest system has no long term impact anyway. I think they only put it in as a measure to reduce server load in the early days of WoW when there were too few servers and they all were overpopulated.

    No, they did it so that people who played infrequently got a boost to leveling faster.

    Most of WoWs mechanics are designed so that people DON'T have to play 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's one of the big secrets to it's success.

    Ah, but I am unsure of the efficacy and effectiveness of these mechanics. It'd be a terrible difficult thing to gauge, I admit, but I suspect hardcore, addicted WoW (or addicted MMO players in general) easily circumvent any mechanics in the game designed to act as "take a break speed-bumps."

    Besides, unless someone has a serious addiction mental health issue, they are responsible for their own actions. It's just nice Blizzard included any "take a break" mechanics at all.

    Curly_Brace on
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    Space CoyoteSpace Coyote Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    corky842 wrote: »
    Corbius wrote: »
    The Korean news is reporting on this death in the context of a larger "game addiction" thing, also talking about a guy who killed his mother because she was nagging him for playing some game.

    But yeah, its only getting any extra attention because of the game aspect. There is plenty of child neglect happening everywhere everyday.

    That's really what i was gearing for with the post. Was more along the lines of how people can become -that- addicted to online games. I also dont understand why this stuff always happens in Korea and not over in NA. We have a lot of online gaming here too. It just seems we are not quite as hardcore. I guess it also doesn't help that many Korean online games are set up in a way that the player has to "grind" everything for long periods of time to progress. Over here people generally like to do some quests and have fun and log out in my experience.

    I wonder how that difference in the mentality behind online gaming between the two cultures sprung up? I mean grindy games tend not to do well here, but thats all they want over there.

    That isn't true. It would seem that when people kill over a game it depends on the type of game they play.

    I think Elimination meant that people kill when they get pissed off in NA, where in Korea people die because they forget about food.

    Pretty much this. I here about people in Asian countries dying over game addictions pretty regularly. Over here we must just be behind the times, shooting/stabbing/beating each other to death. Maybe we should just settle our differences with endurance gaming marathons and see who drops dead first.

    Exactly, people kill other people over stupid crap all the time. People have murdered over sneakers, so its no big deal that people have killed over video games. But its a whole different level of crazy when you die from exhaustion while playing a video game, because you can't take any time to sleep or eat.

    MMOs are particularly bad because they don't require hand eye coordination. Nobody is going to die playing halo or modern warfare, because their hand eye skills will eventually decrease enough that they will have to quit playing, a built in safety measure.

    If the Korean gamers are getting so obsessed about a game that they neglect their child, they probably aren't taking good care of themselves either. If a gamer in America gets obsessed about a game to the point that they will kill a child for spoiling it, surely the two are comparable.

    It seems odd to me that killing a child out of malice is seen as a less crazy act than getting so addicted to something that it kills you.

    Space Coyote on
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    It seems odd to me that killing a child out of malice is seen as a less crazy act than getting so addicted to something that it kills you.
    From a legal standpoint, it's a question of intent. Intentionally killing someone is considered a more culpable act than killing them through negligence. There are gradations of crimes based on your mental state at the time of comitting the crime.

    Addictions are generally not a complete legal defense to a crime, at least not in the US. But, your addiction can be used to show that you had a diminished mental capacity and weren't therefore able to form the requisite intent for a more serious crime.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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    Akei ArkayAkei Arkay Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I read something about this elsewhere... IIRC, the couple in question had problems above and beyond the gaming thing. The baby in question was born prematurely, and I think the father had been laid off. They apparently cracked under the pressure, suffered a joint nervous breakdown, and turned to the online game as an escapist fantasy. Perhaps they were trying to raise their child symbolically, in an idealized situation where the child's medical issues and their own financial problems didn't exist.

    So while you can definitely draw a chain of cause-and-effect from the gaming addiction to the child's death, it's kind of missing the point to do so. The ultimate cause was the parents' break from reality; the gaming was just a symptom thereof.

    I may be talking out of my behind here, I dunno.

    Akei Arkay on
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    TaGuelleTaGuelle Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I like to sometimes play Counter Strike in PC-Rooms (Said Pi Shi Bang) in Korea and they are a strange world. They smell like stale smoke and sweat and you can order food there or delivery to there. They're really cheap and are used by all sorts of different people. Kids spend a ridiculous amount of time in them.

    A lot of Korean kids are so busy with studying, one of their only hobbys might be web surfing. I'm teaching at a public school and when I ask what kids did on the weekend or vacation, besides studying, they said playing computer. This typically means surfing on the internet.

    You can tell the people that use PC Bangs constantly and are there for hours on end and which users arent.

    People in general have so many demands for their time and energy, they sometimes have very little extra time for themselves. It is normal to wake up for work, go to work for 10 hours, and then be forced to drink and eat with your co-workers and watch your bosses drunkenly perform Karaoke. All to wake up again hung over as fuck and repeat. I wouldn't say the PC Bang/baby neglect types form an underclass but they are not the norm in society at all even if internet addiction is ubiquitous..

    TaGuelle on
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    BarrakkethBarrakketh Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    TaGuelle wrote: »
    People in general have so many demands for their time and energy, they sometimes have very little extra time for themselves. It is normal to wake up for work, go to work for 10 hours, and then be forced to drink and eat with your co-workers and watch your bosses drunkenly perform Karaoke.
    Is that typical in Asia? I've heard about it being routine for the average Japanese salaryman, but I assumed the phenomenon was restricted to that country.

    Barrakketh on
    Rollers are red, chargers are blue....omae wa mou shindeiru
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    darksteeldarksteel Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    TaGuelle wrote: »
    People in general have so many demands for their time and energy, they sometimes have very little extra time for themselves. It is normal to wake up for work, go to work for 10 hours, and then be forced to drink and eat with your co-workers and watch your bosses drunkenly perform Karaoke.
    Is that typical in Asia? I've heard about it being routine for the average Japanese salaryman, but I assumed the phenomenon was restricted to that country.

    I can tell you that it is very common in the Philippines, and all of you WILL be singing Frank Sinatra's "My Way". Fucking song is sung so often, people have killed each other for not singing it properly.

    darksteel on
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    TaGuelleTaGuelle Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I can't really speak for all of Asia but it is incredibly common in the corprorate world in Korea. They've got this concept called "Jeong". It's kind of hard to describe especially since I don't understand it completely and will probably never feel it. It's like a unity and bond between people in a social circle eg Family, intimate life long friends, co workers, church group, acquaintences, etc. To build that and maintain it, workers will have to endure tons of these dinners and stuff. This time consuming aspect of work is part of the reason there is such demand for Native English teachers, parents can kill three birds with sending their children to private after school programs: status, baby sitting, and education.

    In my school, about 10 times a semester or maybe more, I will have to go to dinner or some other activity like hiking or singing. Sometimes it's with the English department, sometimes with the department that my desk is in, and sometimes with all the teachers in the school. If there are male coworkers involved, the drinking will be heavy and bond forming. My tolerance is beyond my co-workers (and that's not a dish on asian drinkers, these guys can drink) so they love to try and get me hammered. The teacher in charge of teacher attendance once forgave me for coming in constantly 5 to 10 minutes late.

    TaGuelle on
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    darksteel wrote: »
    Barrakketh wrote: »
    TaGuelle wrote: »
    People in general have so many demands for their time and energy, they sometimes have very little extra time for themselves. It is normal to wake up for work, go to work for 10 hours, and then be forced to drink and eat with your co-workers and watch your bosses drunkenly perform Karaoke.
    Is that typical in Asia? I've heard about it being routine for the average Japanese salaryman, but I assumed the phenomenon was restricted to that country.

    I can tell you that it is very common in the Philippines, and all of you WILL be singing Frank Sinatra's "My Way". Fucking song is sung so often, people have killed each other for not singing it properly.
    From what I understand, karaoke is taken seriously in Japan and other Asian countries. It's not something people do as a joke.

    God, having to listen to my co-workers sing karaoke is one of my versions of hell.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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    SamSam Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    it depends where you work. if you work at an investment bank, you will deal with that kind of blood brotherhood no matter what country you're in.

    the main difference is that employees have less rights in terms of things like wrongful termination, so you're more likely to drink the kimchi koolaid- but there are 9-5 jobs, they're standard, but those societies tend to be set up so you're motivated to work yuppie hours since the average person gets reamed harder than in America due to things like rental costs, automobile taxes, lower salaries, etc.

    Sam on
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    TaGuelleTaGuelle Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    [/QUOTE]God, having to listen to my co-workers sing karaoke is one of my versions of hell.[/QUOTE]

    You know, it can be a drag, but the "when in Rome" spirit really can take over. I hated Karaoke before living in Asia and now if I'm properly drunk I find myself only mildly disliking it. I sometimes even enjoy singing the occasional song.

    TaGuelle on
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