I think the flash side-ways are kind of showing that despite what happened to the island, these people are still going to be brought together by fate. So with or without Jacob's interference, they can't really avoid each other. That or it's a TV show.
Sawyer is the key. If His parents are still alive then Jacob is probably evil. Because that means that Jacob manipulated it so that his dad killed his mom. We have seen traces of this with Locke still being in touch with his dad.
This of course depends on the sideflashes being real sideflashes and not flashes of a world after one side wins. As in the future one side wins and we are seeing the result of this in the sideflashes. There is precedence with the flashforwards in past seasons.
Uh, no. That wouldn't make Jacob evil. That would mean that yet again something vastly different is going on, resulting in all kinds of changes. Not necessarily that Jacob did it.
It would be proof that all the shit thats made people so fucking miserable is Jacob's doing. Which would support the idea that he manipulative for his own ends, setting people up to do things to get his way. Which would again point to the fact that he is lying about people are making their own choices. Which would point to him being evil.
This is all based on the idea that the Sideflashes are real sideflashes and not something else.
Kipling217 on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Sawyer is the key. If His parents are still alive then Jacob is probably evil. Because that means that Jacob manipulated it so that his dad killed his mom. We have seen traces of this with Locke still being in touch with his dad.
This of course depends on the sideflashes being real sideflashes and not flashes of a world after one side wins. As in the future one side wins and we are seeing the result of this in the sideflashes. There is precedence with the flashforwards in past seasons.
Uh, no. That wouldn't make Jacob evil. That would mean that yet again something vastly different is going on, resulting in all kinds of changes. Not necessarily that Jacob did it.
It would be proof that all the shit thats made people so fucking miserable is Jacob's doing. Which would support the idea that he manipulative for his own ends, setting people up to do things to get his way. Which would again point to the fact that he is lying about people are making their own choices. Which would point to him being evil.
This is all based on the idea that the Sideflashes are real sideflashes and not something else.
If you want to go that route, when he touched Sayid he pretty much ensured that we'd see the death of the woman he loved. That sounds pretty damn nasty of a thing to do.
I'm very interested in (but not expecting to see) what happened with Ben/his dad and the Dharma guys. I assume he never got shot and became "different", so I wonder what lead them to leave?
They sure didn't make it sound like they left because of anything catastrophic.
Well, last night's episode made it clear that the Island still existed at some point in time and Dharma was on it. I wonder if it was Jack and Co. that forced everyone off it and sunk it.
I thought LA X made that clear when it panned down and showed the barracks with the dharma shark swimming by.
That does raise an interesting point.
I believe one of the producers mentioned that the Losties blowing up the nuke in the past was responsible for creating the alternate timeline. And that the purpose of the flash-sideway thing was to show how much that changed history, to show how selfish (his words) the Losties were for thinking they could go back in time 30 years and blow off a nuke and only affect their own selves.
This would imply that the island sinking is a direct result of blowing off the nuke. Possibly the explosion right on top of the Swan's electromagnetic energy pocket thing caused a chain reaction that sank the island.
BUT Ben and his dad were on the island at that point. Could there have been time for an evacuation? Maybe. But if they had ran away from the island in a rush evacuation as it was sinking as the result of a disaster, his dad wouldn't be reminiscing "Imagine how our lives would have been if we'd stayed... Who knows what you would have become?" Because he'd be dead. For his dad to think that way means that he left while the Dharma Initiative was still going strong and the island showed no sign of self-destructing. Probably he doesn't even know it sank since then.
So whatever happened to make the island sink, it must have happened quite some time after the nuke was blown. And if the nuke explosion was responsible, then the effects were not apparent for a long time.
Richard told him to get lost, but didn't say "Because Jacob rules!"
If God ceases to exist, do you automatically side with Satan? Probably not.
Richard knows Jacob is gone, and that Locke is evil incarnate. Thus he wants to get the hell away from Locke, and has lost faith. It's not necessarily a "choose sides" thing for Richard. Though his faith must have been somewhat restored by that.
You don't automatically side with Satan, no. But when you only have God's word that Satan is evil, then you realize that everything God told you was a lie, you might as well give Satan a fair hearing.
That's the thing. Not that Richard decided not to side with MiB, but that he wouldn't even hear him out. He was still a convinced Jacob follower.
Though I guess those other posts about how seeing the Temple carnage would push him over the edge make sense, and explain it nicely.
Well, last night's episode made it clear that the Island still existed at some point in time and Dharma was on it. I wonder if it was Jack and Co. that forced everyone off it and sunk it.
I thought LA X made that clear when it panned down and showed the barracks with the dharma shark swimming by.
That does raise an interesting point.
I believe one of the producers mentioned that the Losties blowing up the nuke in the past was responsible for creating the alternate timeline. And that the purpose of the flash-sideway thing was to show how much that changed history, to show how selfish (his words) the Losties were for thinking they could go back in time 30 years and blow off a nuke and only affect their own selves.
This would imply that the island sinking is a direct result of blowing off the nuke. Possibly the explosion right on top of the Swan's electromagnetic energy pocket thing caused a chain reaction that sank the island.
BUT Ben and his dad were on the island at that point. Could there have been time for an evacuation? Maybe. But if they had ran away from the island in a rush evacuation as it was sinking as the result of a disaster, his dad wouldn't be reminiscing "Imagine how our lives would have been if we'd stayed... Who knows what you would have become?" Because he'd be dead. For his dad to think that way means that he left while the Dharma Initiative was still going strong and the island showed no sign of self-destructing. Probably he doesn't even know it sank since then.
So whatever happened to make the island sink, it must have happened quite some time after the nuke was blown. And if the nuke explosion was responsible, then the effects were not apparent for a long time.
That's my biggest o_O moment right now. On one hand, you have the expectation that if they blew up the bomb and it worked, only events AFTER them blowing up the bomb would've changed. But with Ben's dad saying they left of their own volition, what changed BEFORE then to make that happen?
We're led to assume that even if they didn't crash in 2004, the survivors still showed up, that they weren't completely erased from the past of the LA X timeline. So that means everything right up until that moment had to have stayed the same. I don't care who you are, a nuke would've wiped out everyone on that island. There would've been no time to "get off" once it exploded. And wasn't young Ben with the Others at that point? Maybe I'm confused, and if I am, correct me. I don't think this is a mistake or an oversight, but it's the first thing that I'm really getting tripped up on.
I do think that pre-bomb history is the same between both timelines, so Ben's dad really was there. My guess is that it's one of the following:
1. The bomb going off did destroy the island, but island magic teleported everybody on it back where they came from. For the time travelers, this meant back to the future - for everybody else it meant the real world. Except in the latter case their memories were changed somehow to think that they left on their own or something. That or they didn't know wtf and Ben's dad is senile.
2. The bomb's detonation fucked up the island core but didn't disturb the surface. This caused irreparable damage to the island magic - the numbers were changed which is why Hurley is lucky now, and Dharma had no reason to be there anymore. They started winding things down and fired some janitors. Then eventually the island sank because it didn't have the magic to sustain it or something.
Well, last night's episode made it clear that the Island still existed at some point in time and Dharma was on it. I wonder if it was Jack and Co. that forced everyone off it and sunk it.
I thought LA X made that clear when it panned down and showed the barracks with the dharma shark swimming by.
That does raise an interesting point.
I believe one of the producers mentioned that the Losties blowing up the nuke in the past was responsible for creating the alternate timeline. And that the purpose of the flash-sideway thing was to show how much that changed history, to show how selfish (his words) the Losties were for thinking they could go back in time 30 years and blow off a nuke and only affect their own selves.
This would imply that the island sinking is a direct result of blowing off the nuke. Possibly the explosion right on top of the Swan's electromagnetic energy pocket thing caused a chain reaction that sank the island.
BUT Ben and his dad were on the island at that point. Could there have been time for an evacuation? Maybe. But if they had ran away from the island in a rush evacuation as it was sinking as the result of a disaster, his dad wouldn't be reminiscing "Imagine how our lives would have been if we'd stayed... Who knows what you would have become?" Because he'd be dead. For his dad to think that way means that he left while the Dharma Initiative was still going strong and the island showed no sign of self-destructing. Probably he doesn't even know it sank since then.
So whatever happened to make the island sink, it must have happened quite some time after the nuke was blown. And if the nuke explosion was responsible, then the effects were not apparent for a long time.
That's my biggest o_O moment right now. On one hand, you have the expectation that if they blew up the bomb and it worked, only events AFTER them blowing up the bomb would've changed. But with Ben's dad saying they left of their own volition, what changed BEFORE then to make that happen?
We're led to assume that even if they didn't crash in 2004, the survivors still showed up, that they weren't completely erased from the past of the LA X timeline. So that means everything right up until that moment had to have stayed the same. I don't care who you are, a nuke would've wiped out everyone on that island. There would've been no time to "get off" once it exploded. And wasn't young Ben with the Others at that point? Maybe I'm confused, and if I am, correct me. I don't think this is a mistake or an oversight, but it's the first thing that I'm really getting tripped up on.
I think to a certain extent it's pretty cut and dry that the bomb always has blown up in 1977, it's just something was different about it this specific time. Either that or course correction.
Too many things happened in "The Incident" that we have seen in the NORMAL timeline. We saw how Pierre Chang lost his hand/arm. We saw "the incident" that had been mentioned a bunch. We saw why the Swan needed to have the concrete wall put up to house that electromagnetic force. We saw Daniel go to Charlotte and tell her to leave. All those things had happened once, and we at least saw them happen again in some form.
As people here pointed out too, back when I wondered how anyone could survive if the bomb did go off - it wasn't jughead. Sayid modified the core. It wasn't a bomb. It would still do a hell of a lot of damage - but it's not totally unreasonable (especially on a magic healing island) that a lot of the island and people involved would survive. With the depth it was detonated at, it's not unreasonable to think those on the surface would survive too - with it just being the core and all (and a 20 year old core at that, that didnt work when dropped down a mineshaft)
And as for if Ben had time to escape - he ABSOLUTELY did. Remember the sub that Sawyer and Juliet were on? The evacuation sub? They easily got away. The "Whatever happened, happend" rule would lend me to believe that the evacuation that Miles made his father start is the very reason why Miles and Charlotte are even PART of the freighter team - and that's WHY they both left.
So with that said, taking what we know from 'normal' time, Ben is not on that sub. Him and his dad didn't leave the island ever (as far as we can tell) right before the incident (like Miles and Charlotte did), so in the wake of 'incident 2.0', something must have made Roger decide to take his son off the island. So my guess would be the bomb DIDN'T sink the island - but led to a chain of events that RESULT in it sinking. And at some point AFTER the bomb, when shit was going down, Roger chickened out and him and Ben bailed. And since the island and the DHARMA Initiative aren't very easy to find, I'd guess that neither of them has any idea the island is at the bottom of the ocean floor right about now.
mxmarks on
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Well, last night's episode made it clear that the Island still existed at some point in time and Dharma was on it. I wonder if it was Jack and Co. that forced everyone off it and sunk it.
I thought LA X made that clear when it panned down and showed the barracks with the dharma shark swimming by.
That does raise an interesting point.
I believe one of the producers mentioned that the Losties blowing up the nuke in the past was responsible for creating the alternate timeline. And that the purpose of the flash-sideway thing was to show how much that changed history, to show how selfish (his words) the Losties were for thinking they could go back in time 30 years and blow off a nuke and only affect their own selves.
This would imply that the island sinking is a direct result of blowing off the nuke. Possibly the explosion right on top of the Swan's electromagnetic energy pocket thing caused a chain reaction that sank the island.
BUT Ben and his dad were on the island at that point. Could there have been time for an evacuation? Maybe. But if they had ran away from the island in a rush evacuation as it was sinking as the result of a disaster, his dad wouldn't be reminiscing "Imagine how our lives would have been if we'd stayed... Who knows what you would have become?" Because he'd be dead. For his dad to think that way means that he left while the Dharma Initiative was still going strong and the island showed no sign of self-destructing. Probably he doesn't even know it sank since then.
So whatever happened to make the island sink, it must have happened quite some time after the nuke was blown. And if the nuke explosion was responsible, then the effects were not apparent for a long time.
Here's a thought on that. It's going to be heavy on the time traveling BS, so bear with me.
Obviously, at some point, Jacob is pretty much removed from the equation for the candidates in the Altverse. Whatever this reason, you still get the Dharma initiative going to the island. However, since the candidates never get their "nudge" from Jacob, they never go back in time, yadda yadda, no bomb etc. If they never go back in time, they never detonate the bomb in timeline X. Thus, if/when Dharma decides to go drilling (and an important point here, is that Dharma was expressly forbidden from drilling more than 10 meters by their treaty) the "Incident" happens.
Now lets make a jump here. We can assume Roger Linus was not the candidate, that Ben was, since he still made it to the Island. That means that, at some point, things very well may have gone poorly behind the scenes in Dharmaville that changed things. Say, maybe, the Others actually murdering Paul without the time traveler's intervention. At some point in the three years that Sawyer, Juliet, Miles etc would have been there, not having them around made things uncomfortable to the point where Roger packed up and left. That gets them off the Island before the Incident.
Now, this is a bit of a Catch 22, so I'm not sure how to handle it. But say the Incident is what actually sank the Island. No candidates, meant no time traveling. No time traveling results in no Daniel to come up with his theory of negating the energy pocket. Juliet said "It worked." We all thought it meant "Yay, LA X." What if it meant, without the nuke, the island would have been destroyed, and the nuke was what actually saved it. It's a bit of a grandfather paradox, I know, but the way the show has dealt with time travel and the two timelines, it's about as good as a theory I can come up with to tie up loose ends until we see just how these two timelines are going to come together. A neat little side effect to all this, is that it means there would have been no transmission for the French ship to go after, thus no shipwreck, and Danielle and Alex could go to America. Widmore would have been on island, as would Hawking, so they'd be gone. No Penny free's Desmond from ever having gone on the boat trip, thus he was free to be on the plane and not be responsible for crashing it.
The one, and ONLY issue I see, is I can't neatly wrap up Ethan's appearance. About the best I can come up with, is the Others let Amy go back to Dharmaville as a warning. So you still get her marrying Horace, they still have Ethan, only she doesn't deliver early and goes back to the mainland and thus is off island when the Incident occurs. Obviously he and Ben didn't join the Others, and really we don't see any evidence they know each other (though this is a guess at best) so we can assume they didn't really grow up together.
Anyway, I'm sure someone will find a major hole in this in about 3.8 minutes, so, have at it and pick it apart.
While I'm still going to assume that Jacob is the good guy, I think it will wind up far more interesting if both he and Smokey are just immortal assholes playing out some bet, a la the biblical story of Job.
Because right now, it seems like Jacob "touching people" has resulted in a lot of death and misery. If we're supposed to just ignore all that and accept that he is unequivocally good, I will be somewhat annoyed. Because while he may be better than Mr. Murders Dozens of Folks With Black Smoke, he's still a giant dick.
ElJeffe on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I don't see why we're complicating things in regards to the split. Everything that happened happened up until the bomb went off. Roger and Ben got off the island with the rest of the Dharma initiative. Roger and Ben didn't know that someone was going to set off a nuke, all they know is that they had to leave. After all the crazyness Roger probably just walked away without trying to get back.
I don't see why we're complicating things in regards to the split. Everything that happened happened up until the bomb went off. Roger and Ben got off the island with the rest of the Dharma initiative. Roger and Ben didn't know that someone was going to set off a nuke, all they know is that they had to leave. After all the crazyness Roger probably just walked away without trying to get back.
When was it shown that they left the island?
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LegacyStuck Somewhere In CyberspaceThe Grid(Seattle)Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2010
I think I just figured out why Sun didn't go back in time with the others, but not why, of course.
She's not a candidate. The Kwon on the lists is for Jin.
Legacy on
Can we get the chemicals in. 'Cause anything's better than this.
While I'm still going to assume that Jacob is the good guy, I think it will wind up far more interesting if both he and Smokey are just immortal assholes playing out some bet, a la the biblical story of Job.
Because right now, it seems like Jacob "touching people" has resulted in a lot of death and misery. If we're supposed to just ignore all that and accept that he is unequivocally good, I will be somewhat annoyed. Because while he may be better than Mr. Murders Dozens of Folks With Black Smoke, he's still a giant dick.
Pretty sure nobody on this show is unequivocally good, nor is anyone unequivocally bad.
While I'm still going to assume that Jacob is the good guy, I think it will wind up far more interesting if both he and Smokey are just immortal assholes playing out some bet, a la the biblical story of Job.
Because right now, it seems like Jacob "touching people" has resulted in a lot of death and misery. If we're supposed to just ignore all that and accept that he is unequivocally good, I will be somewhat annoyed. Because while he may be better than Mr. Murders Dozens of Folks With Black Smoke, he's still a giant dick.
Pretty sure nobody on this show is unequivocally good, nor is anyone unequivocally bad.
Hurley
Keamy
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SixCaches Tweets in the mainframe cyberhexRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Hurley wanted to steal The Empire Strikes Back. That's kinda mean!
Hurley's awesome.
Six on
can you feel the struggle within?
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
Hurley wanted to steal The Empire Strikes Back. That's kinda mean!
Hurley's awesome.
Not steal, he just wanted to help make it MOAR awesome. Who knows? Since "Whatever happened happened" maybe George Lucas's original story for Empire Strikes back included Jedi Master Jar Jar training Luke in the art of pod racing on the planet of Dagogungun and hurley's notes were so awesome he dialed it all back to the empire we know and
I think I just figured out why Sun didn't go back in time with the others, but not why, of course.
She's not a candidate. The Kwon on the lists is for Jin.
So why did Kate go back?
Kate might be a Candidate, though I'm doubting it. On the cave, her name is crossed out. On the Lighthouse, it's not.
given that the rest of the "Numbered" candidates are men, that theory about Jin/Sun sounds pretty good.
The Lighthouse is the graffiti of record and Smokey's cave is deduction or supposition. Jacob is a player/manager in this game and Jacob has the lineup card, Smokey is just the opposition player.
I don't see why we're complicating things in regards to the split. Everything that happened happened up until the bomb went off. Roger and Ben got off the island with the rest of the Dharma initiative. Roger and Ben didn't know that someone was going to set off a nuke, all they know is that they had to leave. After all the crazyness Roger probably just walked away without trying to get back.
This is not necessarily true. The Losties have been shown to travel as far back as 1954. If they never crashed, none of the time travel would have occurred, and there could be an infinite number of possibilities regarding the changes in the alternate universe.
Woo, the one thing in forever that I think I guessed correctly immediately upon hearing it said. Smokey's reference to Ricardos and his chains, along with his questionable ethnicity, immediately made me think he was a slave on the Black Rock.
I really hope "whatever happened happened" stays true. I really respected that aspect of the show.
I thought Faraday already said he was wrong about that, which is why he came up with nuke idea. He was all "OH WAIT I FORGOT ABOUT PEOPLE, THEY DO WHAT THEY WANT! HAHA I'M SO SILLY!"
Which I found to be probably the dumbest thing to ever happen on the show.
I really hope "whatever happened happened" stays true. I really respected that aspect of the show.
I get a distinct "Schroedinger's Cat" feeling from S6, so I could imagine that we've got a situation where whatever happened both happened and didn't happen.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Yes, Jacob saved Sayid - but this at least entails the implication of Jacob *not* saving Nadia. It's pretty much a sin of omission. Depending on how powerful Jacob is, it could be interpreted as him only being able to save one of them, but it doesn't take much twisting to make it look like Jacob only cared enough to save our favourite torturer.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Thing is, metaphysical Good doesn't necessarily have to be nice and friendly and bring about everything that people might wish for. Jacob may be a healer and protector whereas Smokey is a destroyer, but protecting mankind may mean that Nadia had to die. From Sayid's perspective it'll be pretty difficult to accept Jacob as the good guy - in fact, you don't need to be Sayid to understand that from any individual perspective Good may be pretty dickish.
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I really hope "whatever happened happened" stays true. I really respected that aspect of the show.
I get a distinct "Schroedinger's Cat" feeling from S6, so I could imagine that we've got a situation where whatever happened both happened and didn't happen.
Yeah, I think what we're seeing is some sort of metaphysical 50/50 split on the outcome of the bomb - either it sank the island(one way or another) or it caused the incident and led to the creation of the hatch.
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It would be proof that all the shit thats made people so fucking miserable is Jacob's doing. Which would support the idea that he manipulative for his own ends, setting people up to do things to get his way. Which would again point to the fact that he is lying about people are making their own choices. Which would point to him being evil.
This is all based on the idea that the Sideflashes are real sideflashes and not something else.
If you want to go that route, when he touched Sayid he pretty much ensured that we'd see the death of the woman he loved. That sounds pretty damn nasty of a thing to do.
They sure didn't make it sound like they left because of anything catastrophic.
That does raise an interesting point.
I believe one of the producers mentioned that the Losties blowing up the nuke in the past was responsible for creating the alternate timeline. And that the purpose of the flash-sideway thing was to show how much that changed history, to show how selfish (his words) the Losties were for thinking they could go back in time 30 years and blow off a nuke and only affect their own selves.
This would imply that the island sinking is a direct result of blowing off the nuke. Possibly the explosion right on top of the Swan's electromagnetic energy pocket thing caused a chain reaction that sank the island.
BUT Ben and his dad were on the island at that point. Could there have been time for an evacuation? Maybe. But if they had ran away from the island in a rush evacuation as it was sinking as the result of a disaster, his dad wouldn't be reminiscing "Imagine how our lives would have been if we'd stayed... Who knows what you would have become?" Because he'd be dead. For his dad to think that way means that he left while the Dharma Initiative was still going strong and the island showed no sign of self-destructing. Probably he doesn't even know it sank since then.
So whatever happened to make the island sink, it must have happened quite some time after the nuke was blown. And if the nuke explosion was responsible, then the effects were not apparent for a long time.
You don't automatically side with Satan, no. But when you only have God's word that Satan is evil, then you realize that everything God told you was a lie, you might as well give Satan a fair hearing.
That's the thing. Not that Richard decided not to side with MiB, but that he wouldn't even hear him out. He was still a convinced Jacob follower.
Though I guess those other posts about how seeing the Temple carnage would push him over the edge make sense, and explain it nicely.
That's my biggest o_O moment right now. On one hand, you have the expectation that if they blew up the bomb and it worked, only events AFTER them blowing up the bomb would've changed. But with Ben's dad saying they left of their own volition, what changed BEFORE then to make that happen?
We're led to assume that even if they didn't crash in 2004, the survivors still showed up, that they weren't completely erased from the past of the LA X timeline. So that means everything right up until that moment had to have stayed the same. I don't care who you are, a nuke would've wiped out everyone on that island. There would've been no time to "get off" once it exploded. And wasn't young Ben with the Others at that point? Maybe I'm confused, and if I am, correct me. I don't think this is a mistake or an oversight, but it's the first thing that I'm really getting tripped up on.
1. The bomb going off did destroy the island, but island magic teleported everybody on it back where they came from. For the time travelers, this meant back to the future - for everybody else it meant the real world. Except in the latter case their memories were changed somehow to think that they left on their own or something. That or they didn't know wtf and Ben's dad is senile.
2. The bomb's detonation fucked up the island core but didn't disturb the surface. This caused irreparable damage to the island magic - the numbers were changed which is why Hurley is lucky now, and Dharma had no reason to be there anymore. They started winding things down and fired some janitors. Then eventually the island sank because it didn't have the magic to sustain it or something.
I think to a certain extent it's pretty cut and dry that the bomb always has blown up in 1977, it's just something was different about it this specific time. Either that or course correction.
Too many things happened in "The Incident" that we have seen in the NORMAL timeline. We saw how Pierre Chang lost his hand/arm. We saw "the incident" that had been mentioned a bunch. We saw why the Swan needed to have the concrete wall put up to house that electromagnetic force. We saw Daniel go to Charlotte and tell her to leave. All those things had happened once, and we at least saw them happen again in some form.
As people here pointed out too, back when I wondered how anyone could survive if the bomb did go off - it wasn't jughead. Sayid modified the core. It wasn't a bomb. It would still do a hell of a lot of damage - but it's not totally unreasonable (especially on a magic healing island) that a lot of the island and people involved would survive. With the depth it was detonated at, it's not unreasonable to think those on the surface would survive too - with it just being the core and all (and a 20 year old core at that, that didnt work when dropped down a mineshaft)
And as for if Ben had time to escape - he ABSOLUTELY did. Remember the sub that Sawyer and Juliet were on? The evacuation sub? They easily got away. The "Whatever happened, happend" rule would lend me to believe that the evacuation that Miles made his father start is the very reason why Miles and Charlotte are even PART of the freighter team - and that's WHY they both left.
So with that said, taking what we know from 'normal' time, Ben is not on that sub. Him and his dad didn't leave the island ever (as far as we can tell) right before the incident (like Miles and Charlotte did), so in the wake of 'incident 2.0', something must have made Roger decide to take his son off the island. So my guess would be the bomb DIDN'T sink the island - but led to a chain of events that RESULT in it sinking. And at some point AFTER the bomb, when shit was going down, Roger chickened out and him and Ben bailed. And since the island and the DHARMA Initiative aren't very easy to find, I'd guess that neither of them has any idea the island is at the bottom of the ocean floor right about now.
Here's a thought on that. It's going to be heavy on the time traveling BS, so bear with me.
Obviously, at some point, Jacob is pretty much removed from the equation for the candidates in the Altverse. Whatever this reason, you still get the Dharma initiative going to the island. However, since the candidates never get their "nudge" from Jacob, they never go back in time, yadda yadda, no bomb etc. If they never go back in time, they never detonate the bomb in timeline X. Thus, if/when Dharma decides to go drilling (and an important point here, is that Dharma was expressly forbidden from drilling more than 10 meters by their treaty) the "Incident" happens.
Now lets make a jump here. We can assume Roger Linus was not the candidate, that Ben was, since he still made it to the Island. That means that, at some point, things very well may have gone poorly behind the scenes in Dharmaville that changed things. Say, maybe, the Others actually murdering Paul without the time traveler's intervention. At some point in the three years that Sawyer, Juliet, Miles etc would have been there, not having them around made things uncomfortable to the point where Roger packed up and left. That gets them off the Island before the Incident.
Now, this is a bit of a Catch 22, so I'm not sure how to handle it. But say the Incident is what actually sank the Island. No candidates, meant no time traveling. No time traveling results in no Daniel to come up with his theory of negating the energy pocket. Juliet said "It worked." We all thought it meant "Yay, LA X." What if it meant, without the nuke, the island would have been destroyed, and the nuke was what actually saved it. It's a bit of a grandfather paradox, I know, but the way the show has dealt with time travel and the two timelines, it's about as good as a theory I can come up with to tie up loose ends until we see just how these two timelines are going to come together. A neat little side effect to all this, is that it means there would have been no transmission for the French ship to go after, thus no shipwreck, and Danielle and Alex could go to America. Widmore would have been on island, as would Hawking, so they'd be gone. No Penny free's Desmond from ever having gone on the boat trip, thus he was free to be on the plane and not be responsible for crashing it.
The one, and ONLY issue I see, is I can't neatly wrap up Ethan's appearance. About the best I can come up with, is the Others let Amy go back to Dharmaville as a warning. So you still get her marrying Horace, they still have Ethan, only she doesn't deliver early and goes back to the mainland and thus is off island when the Incident occurs. Obviously he and Ben didn't join the Others, and really we don't see any evidence they know each other (though this is a guess at best) so we can assume they didn't really grow up together.
Anyway, I'm sure someone will find a major hole in this in about 3.8 minutes, so, have at it and pick it apart.
Because right now, it seems like Jacob "touching people" has resulted in a lot of death and misery. If we're supposed to just ignore all that and accept that he is unequivocally good, I will be somewhat annoyed. Because while he may be better than Mr. Murders Dozens of Folks With Black Smoke, he's still a giant dick.
I took that as an allusion to Widmore
When was it shown that they left the island?
She's not a candidate. The Kwon on the lists is for Jin.
Oh, and everyone else. Stop spoilering shit that already happened. It's annoying as fuck and against the "rules" of the thread.
Just stop it.
To get Claire off the island.
Kate might be a Candidate, though I'm doubting it. On the cave, her name is crossed out. On the Lighthouse, it's not.
given that the rest of the "Numbered" candidates are men, that theory about Jin/Sun sounds pretty good.
That's my thinking on the matter.
And I have to say that this last episode might have been my favorite. If nothing else it's my favorite from the past few seasons.
Magic Online - Bertro
Pretty sure nobody on this show is unequivocally good, nor is anyone unequivocally bad.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
Hurley
Keamy
Hurley's awesome.
Not steal, he just wanted to help make it MOAR awesome. Who knows? Since "Whatever happened happened" maybe George Lucas's original story for Empire Strikes back included Jedi Master Jar Jar training Luke in the art of pod racing on the planet of Dagogungun and hurley's notes were so awesome he dialed it all back to the empire we know and
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
"Dude, how do you spell, 'bounty hunter?'"
Instantly I turned to my wife and said, "He's writing Star Wars."
xbl - HowYouGetAnts
steam - WeAreAllGeth
The Lighthouse is the graffiti of record and Smokey's cave is deduction or supposition. Jacob is a player/manager in this game and Jacob has the lineup card, Smokey is just the opposition player.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
This is not necessarily true. The Losties have been shown to travel as far back as 1954. If they never crashed, none of the time travel would have occurred, and there could be an infinite number of possibilities regarding the changes in the alternate universe.
and Keamy. Radzinsky is an irredeemable douche too.
I thought Faraday already said he was wrong about that, which is why he came up with nuke idea. He was all "OH WAIT I FORGOT ABOUT PEOPLE, THEY DO WHAT THEY WANT! HAHA I'M SO SILLY!"
Which I found to be probably the dumbest thing to ever happen on the show.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sayid's meeting with Jacob on the street? He and Nadia were walking across the street, and Jacob stopped him.
In that regard, wouldn't Jacob have saved Sayid's life? If Nadia got hit by a car, then it's pretty clear that Sayid would have as well.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I'm just saying that Jacob's treatment of Sayid and Nadia shouldn't be used as some sort of proof that he's evil.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods