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Conflicted Feelings About Trend Toward "Streamlining" in RPGs
daisekihan
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I played Mass Effect 2 right when it came out. Now I'm playing Final Fantasy XIII. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's done exactly the same.
Now, I'll say right here that this is not a bawwwing thread about how they've changed RPGs and now they suck and nothing will ever be good in the world again, ever. I liked Mass Effect 2 and, in spite of my initial reservations, I'm starting to enjoy the battle system in FFXIII. In both cases, the ways in which these games have altered RPG conventions has been called "streamlining". Like I said, I like these games. And in truth, if this sort of thing becomes the dominant form of RPG games, I will still play them and be glad to do so.
But as the topic suggests, I feel conflicted. Because even though I like these "streamlined" games, I'm going to be honest and say that I like them a little less than I do more traditional ones. I adore Final Fantasy Shadow Hearts, KOTOR, and even something like Lost Odyssey.
Then again, I never could finish Dragon Quest VIII, and even though I have a copy of Xenosaga, I've never been able to get past the first few hours---I always end up wanting to take a nap as soon as possible after about an hour of play. So I can understand what people mean when they say all the stuff that makes traditional RPGs what they are is just unnecessary padding.
So I'm wondering, does anyone else who likes RPGs feels this way? Like I said, I'm willing to accept that the kind of game I like the best isn't, and probably won't be, the dominant form of RPG, but I hope they don't die out all together. And what's more, I hope I'll actually hear about them when they come out, since they probably won't be getting much publicity.
Now, I'll say right here that this is not a bawwwing thread about how they've changed RPGs and now they suck and nothing will ever be good in the world again, ever. I liked Mass Effect 2 and, in spite of my initial reservations, I'm starting to enjoy the battle system in FFXIII. In both cases, the ways in which these games have altered RPG conventions has been called "streamlining". Like I said, I like these games. And in truth, if this sort of thing becomes the dominant form of RPG games, I will still play them and be glad to do so.
But as the topic suggests, I feel conflicted. Because even though I like these "streamlined" games, I'm going to be honest and say that I like them a little less than I do more traditional ones. I adore Final Fantasy Shadow Hearts, KOTOR, and even something like Lost Odyssey.
Then again, I never could finish Dragon Quest VIII, and even though I have a copy of Xenosaga, I've never been able to get past the first few hours---I always end up wanting to take a nap as soon as possible after about an hour of play. So I can understand what people mean when they say all the stuff that makes traditional RPGs what they are is just unnecessary padding.
So I'm wondering, does anyone else who likes RPGs feels this way? Like I said, I'm willing to accept that the kind of game I like the best isn't, and probably won't be, the dominant form of RPG, but I hope they don't die out all together. And what's more, I hope I'll actually hear about them when they come out, since they probably won't be getting much publicity.
daisekihan on
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For some reason I also like towns, it's nice to have a safe haven to venture out of, gambling on whether to turn back or push on for your next goal. Final Fantasy Legend was a killer for that, especially as weapons had a certain number of uses before they broke. You had to farm around to properly stock up for a trip up the tower, and because you never knew when the next town was going to be it made for some proper nasty moments. Especially because you could only bring party members back to life in towns.
Anyway, rambling now. Streamlining has cut out mostly filler, but they took some parts I liked with it.
On average, it's a good thing. Needs work.
I feel that older gamers will always welcome a good traditional RPG because we're used to the formula, while newer gamers would find the micromanaging of different equipment and grinding of XP for levels and skills excessive and boring.
Both formulas can work, and I don't think that one is better than the other in every circumstance. In some games, a linear, streamlined path help propagate the story - in FFX for example, your party was on a pilgramage, so it made sense to go in a predetermined order. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past works well in that for the most part, it's non-linear, allowing you to complete the dungeons in almost any order you want, return to them whenever you wish, plus it has plenty of hidden areas on the overworld.
I have nothing but hate for the typical RPG town. I tend to play games for combat or story (ideally both), so talking to every placeholder NPC and rooting through every house's drawers to make sure I haven't missed anything feels like such a stupid, futile exercise. This hatred is mitigated slightly if the towns are an exciting visual experience (Baten Kaitos).
I'm 100% with you on exploration though. I was so disappointed with the loss of the overworld in Tales of Symphonia 2 - especially since they decided to add a monster capture system, which would have worked perfectly with a free roaming map.
The old-school exploration and cities are detrimental to a good interactive story... Streamlined is a good word for it, they are really cutting out something that just disrupts the narrative.
I like towns, I think they're a nice way to break up the gameplay from walk for a while, fight, walk for a while that make up the brunt of most RPGs. That random NPC who only has two lines may not be important to the overall gameplay, but their responses serve to build up your understanding of the game world around you. RPGs aren't just about getting from point A to point B, they're meant to tell you a story along the way. Little pieces of dialogue from NPCs and random quests and town storylines all serve to enrich that.
Maybe I'm just a dork who likes to sperg out on not just getting that armor, but getting that armor +3, but I really don't like calling what is (in my mind) a glorified action game an RPG.
I'm a long, long, long-time tabletop gamer. (Okay, not that long, I'm only 30. But you get the idear.)
This whole move towards "streamlined" CRPGs is nothing new, really. It's something that's existed in the tabletop space for years and years. It's the differentiation between, say, a GURPS vs. a Rolemaster vs. a D&D vs. an Ars Magica. Or all of those vs. a Descent or a Hero Quest or a Talislanta. Or even those vs. Squad Leader. Versus a Star Wars Minis or *Clix.
The more possible points of entry to the sphere, and the easier they are to get into - say, Battlecry to stoke an interest in historical miniatures gaming, or Descent into D&D/etc. - the better chance of getting new blood hooked on the general idea and, eventually, getting them interested in the more traditional, "harder-core" systems.
Think of them like gateway drugs - which, nevertheless, offer something new for experienced users, as well - and you'll realize that they're still good things.
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I dunno. I'd agree that the old school mechanics might be detrimental to the cinematic type of interactive story, sure, but not interactive stories in general. I guess it depends on what you prefer, cinematic and/or immersive or the more traditional style. I suppose that means we're not just looking at new vs. old RPG mechanics, but also new vs. old storytelling styles.
I'm sincerely curious: How often does the former actually occur in games?
It's not an RPG (entirely), but would Stalker: SoC be considered one of those games? Its story is there, but it's not as in your face with the narrative. Or would that be something different?
But of course a lot of the opinions on this will boil down to whether people want actual stories in their RPGs or they only really care about grinding to get better stats. People who just want the stats obviously would dislike the streamlining of Mass Effect 2 since it largely removes stats and you just get abilities broken down to various levels of effectiveness. On the other hand, lots of people (myself included) hate tedious leveling, especially for its own sake, and thus found the Mass Effect 2 system to be wonderful. Not to mention ditching the mountain-of-crap loot system which is another RPG element I find to be distasteful and virtually unnecessary.
Conversely, I have no desire to buy the streamlined FF13 because of the horrible linearity of the game. My expectations for a good Final Fantasy game include a) a decent story, b) towns, and c) an overworld map. The last FF game to go for this was 9 (though the story bored me considerably), so since then the games have just gotten farther and farther from anything which interests me. I also have no interest in watching characters whack numbers off of enemies, so even though I can tolerate this element of gameplay it is never the main factor for me in an RPG.
In terms of future development, I think we're going to see a continuing increase in streamlined RPG elements in games while stat-driven RPGs will become increasingly niche titles. People just tend to have better things to do than to want to spend an hour leveling up or sorting through stacks of crap to make sure they don't dump the one useful item they find out of hundreds. And frankly, I think the only reason we've seen the decline of games with overworlds is simple laziness on the part of developers. When they don't have to put that world together, the story you're involved in can be a fraction of the size and take a fraction of the creativity to keep together.
Actually, FFXIII falls under the second category. There's nothing interactive about the story (you just watch a bunch of cutscenes), but the game features deep battle & character upgrade systems for the player to try to master & exploit.
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