I don't disagree that playing more than one char is hard. I just don't like seeing players use matchups to help improve their chances.
And Justin is the best in the US, no doubt. But i still don't like seeing him swap to a character with a more favorable matchup when he starts losing. It's not like he switched to Abel against that Viper, he swapped to Rog.
If he had swapped to Fei I'd have been impressed. As it is he just looks mercenary.
Edit: Again, whatever it takes to win, of course. I just don't like it, it doesn't seem right to me.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
But thats the point, he gets to use the character select screen as a bag of tools. If one isn't working, you try a different one.
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
Someday someone will run a tournament where the current game/match/score is clearly displayed for the commentator so they won't be guessing and wrong half the time.
Yea idk if I consider Wong going to Rog there much of a counter pick, I mean sure he went to a character he uses less but it looked like his skill with the character was better than all of the Rog players in the finals.
But thats the point, he gets to use the character select screen as a bag of tools. If one isn't working, you try a different one.
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
And didn't that Viper just finish losing to another Balrog? Seems that knowing they have problems with a certain character matchup would be useful information to put into practice.
Hm, just think I realized why you can delay Hakan's lunging standing/anti-air throw. To punish backdashers. Delay it a bit to get through the invulnerability frames and then let it go. Doesn't matter if it's a back dash that makes them count as being in the air because the throw grabs airborne opponents.
It sounds like if Hakan can get in people's heads he will be brutal.
Oddly enough I'm more bothered by the idea that Wong would deliberately play a character he's not as good with for the most part, saving his main for the final. It's like it diminishes anyone who beat him even in a single round on the way there because he can just say "Oh, it wasn't my main."
But thats the point, he gets to use the character select screen as a bag of tools. If one isn't working, you try a different one.
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
Eh, it's also why the top 50 BP in Japan looks like this:
Character popularity
• 21 Sagat players
• 7 Akuma players
• 4 Rufus players
• 4 Ryu players
• 3 Balrog players
• 3 Ken players
• 2 Abel players
• 1 Blanka, C. Viper, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, E. Honda, M. Bison and Zangief player each
El Fuerte, Guile and Vega (Claw) were the only arcade characters not represented here.
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
I understand what you're saying, but on the other hand, if you were not able to counterpick, wouldn't all of the players just migrate to characters without obvious weaknesses? There are many players, even in the US, who will stick with their main character no matter what. Rico Suave, who has arguably the best Abel in the US. Aquasilk, arguably one of the top Gief players. Whoever that Blanka player is. And while these people often place very highly, they never win major tournaments. I don't know how it is in Japan, but I would guess that you don't see those characters winning tournaments too often there either.
On the other hand, you have players like Justin Wong and Sanford, both of whom can competently play most of the cast, and win basically every tournament they enter.
I would argue that by not limiting yourself to a single character, you become a better player, and do more to "push the envelope."
edit: nice chart, Jodo. Anyways, I feel like allowing counterpicks promotes a greater variety of characters than you would see otherwise.
But thats the point, he gets to use the character select screen as a bag of tools. If one isn't working, you try a different one.
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
Eh, it's also why the top 50 BP in Japan looks like this:
Character popularity
• 21 Sagat players
• 7 Akuma players
• 4 Rufus players
• 4 Ryu players
• 3 Balrog players
• 3 Ken players
• 2 Abel players
• 1 Blanka, C. Viper, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, E. Honda, M. Bison and Zangief player each
El Fuerte, Guile and Vega (Claw) were the only arcade characters not represented here.
I understand the point you are making Jodo, it's just that for me, while Mago and Ojisan Boy are indeed great Sagats, I'm not all that interested in their play.
I'm more interested in guys like TKD, Shiro, Uryo, Iyo or Itabashi Zangief.
We all know what Rog can do, we know what Sagat and Ryu are capable of. However, some of the best matches I've ever seen are ones where the player stuck it through and outplayed the matchup. Shiro vs Daigo is a good example, and so is Iyo. These are the things that truly interest me as a fighting game player, not how strong characters win, but how weak characters overcome the stronger ones.
Of course, this is all gonna be moot with the release of Super.
I hope very much that Super will shake up the tiers and we will see fewer Sagats, Rog's and Ryu's in the top 8. 10 new characters is a lot of new variables. I put my faith in the future.
Edit: I also agree with Antihippy regarding seeing what the Japanese can do with more characters.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Oddly enough I'm more bothered by the idea that Wong would deliberately play a character he's not as good with for the most part, saving his main for the final. It's like it diminishes anyone who beat him even in a single round on the way there because he can just say "Oh, it wasn't my main."
He's not sandbagging, exactly. He's still learning a lot by playing with that character. And actually, if you ask to play against his Rufus, he will oblige.
But thats the point, he gets to use the character select screen as a bag of tools. If one isn't working, you try a different one.
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
Eh, it's also why the top 50 BP in Japan looks like this:
Character popularity
• 21 Sagat players
• 7 Akuma players
• 4 Rufus players
• 4 Ryu players
• 3 Balrog players
• 3 Ken players
• 2 Abel players
• 1 Blanka, C. Viper, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, E. Honda, M. Bison and Zangief player each
El Fuerte, Guile and Vega (Claw) were the only arcade characters not represented here.
I understand the point you are making Jodo, it's just that for me, while Mago and Ojisan Boy are indeed great Sagats, I'm not all that interested in their play.
I'm more interested in guys like TKD, Shiro, Uryo, Iyo or Itabashi Zangief.
We all know what Rog can do, we know what Sagat and Ryu are capable of. However, some of the best matches I've ever seen are ones where the player stuck it through and outplayed the matchup. Shiro vs Daigo is a good example, and so is Iyo. These are the things that truly interest me as a fighting game player, not how strong characters win, but how weak characters overcome the stronger ones.
Of course, this is all gonna be moot with the release of Super.
I hope very much that Super will shake up the tiers and we will see fewer Sagats, Rog's and Ryu's in the top 8. 10 new characters is a lot of new variables. I put my faith in the future.
Edit: I also agree with Antihippy regarding seeing what the Japanese can do with more characters.
I don't think anyone is going to disagree that it is more interesting. I main Fuerte and I don't change from him in tourneys at all, though I've strongly considered doing it a few times against Blanka just because I hate fighting that match up. I am pretty competent with 3-4 characters, but I have yet to try and pull that in a tourney if onyl because I feel like I can pull out the win with my Fuerte. But on the same note, it's unlikely that I will be winning any sort of large tournament on a regular basis.
For me personally, it's about doing everything I can with my main character, but I can't knock on people for doing what will win them the tournament. Just like I can't hate people for playing Gief or Blanka even though their characters are bastards.
Our new injoke feels like we're counterpicking everyone.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Sakura's ultra was god tier when the game first came out because people didn't know they had to block low. Also, I think it may be an infinite on THawk.
Edit: Yo we heard you like to counterpick so we put an infinite on your counterpick so you can infinite Thawk while you counterpick.
Hiryu02 on
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Posts
No, Marn didn't get counterpicked. Marn went to Akuma and got wrecked.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
Oh, I see.
Gah the stream just died on me.
Oh, I thought of someone else OHT could do a Chun video on. Rufus. I hate that fucker.
I don't disagree that playing more than one char is hard. I just don't like seeing players use matchups to help improve their chances.
And Justin is the best in the US, no doubt. But i still don't like seeing him swap to a character with a more favorable matchup when he starts losing. It's not like he switched to Abel against that Viper, he swapped to Rog.
If he had swapped to Fei I'd have been impressed. As it is he just looks mercenary.
Edit: Again, whatever it takes to win, of course. I just don't like it, it doesn't seem right to me.
Stream's kind of back, but I've only got audio.
(Really, I think it's hard not to be mercenary if you're playing in a tournament with prize money. It's pretty much the point.)
1. JWong
2. PR Balrog
3. Flash metroid
Theres no "honor" to be had in sticking to one character and losing. If you can win, you should.
I dunno, maybe its the Smash Bros. player in me. Back when I still entered tournaments, you *needed* to be able to play enough characters to cover your weaknesses.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
I'm not talking about honor at all. I play to win.
I'm just saying that for example, if tournaments were character locked like they are in Japan, you'd see a lot more pushing of the envelope rather than this counterpicking to cover your weaknesses. For example, I'm not interested in seeing a character win a match that favors them, I'd rather see a match in which the player really overcomes the shortcomings of their character.
Otherwise, we'd have never seen what characters like Abel, Fuerte or even Chun or Viper were really capable of. Yeb and Jibbo would have never stuck with Gen long enough to really show us what he was capable of. These are things that simply would have not have happened if everyone just tried "to compensate" for their characters' weaknesses.
It sounds like if Hakan can get in people's heads he will be brutal.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Eh, it's also why the top 50 BP in Japan looks like this:
Character popularity
• 21 Sagat players
• 7 Akuma players
• 4 Rufus players
• 4 Ryu players
• 3 Balrog players
• 3 Ken players
• 2 Abel players
• 1 Blanka, C. Viper, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, E. Honda, M. Bison and Zangief player each
El Fuerte, Guile and Vega (Claw) were the only arcade characters not represented here.
I understand what you're saying, but on the other hand, if you were not able to counterpick, wouldn't all of the players just migrate to characters without obvious weaknesses? There are many players, even in the US, who will stick with their main character no matter what. Rico Suave, who has arguably the best Abel in the US. Aquasilk, arguably one of the top Gief players. Whoever that Blanka player is. And while these people often place very highly, they never win major tournaments. I don't know how it is in Japan, but I would guess that you don't see those characters winning tournaments too often there either.
On the other hand, you have players like Justin Wong and Sanford, both of whom can competently play most of the cast, and win basically every tournament they enter.
I would argue that by not limiting yourself to a single character, you become a better player, and do more to "push the envelope."
edit: nice chart, Jodo. Anyways, I feel like allowing counterpicks promotes a greater variety of characters than you would see otherwise.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
It'll also be nice to finally see what the other japanese players can do with the other characters instead of the boring arcade ones.
I understand the point you are making Jodo, it's just that for me, while Mago and Ojisan Boy are indeed great Sagats, I'm not all that interested in their play.
I'm more interested in guys like TKD, Shiro, Uryo, Iyo or Itabashi Zangief.
We all know what Rog can do, we know what Sagat and Ryu are capable of. However, some of the best matches I've ever seen are ones where the player stuck it through and outplayed the matchup. Shiro vs Daigo is a good example, and so is Iyo. These are the things that truly interest me as a fighting game player, not how strong characters win, but how weak characters overcome the stronger ones.
Of course, this is all gonna be moot with the release of Super.
I hope very much that Super will shake up the tiers and we will see fewer Sagats, Rog's and Ryu's in the top 8. 10 new characters is a lot of new variables. I put my faith in the future.
Edit: I also agree with Antihippy regarding seeing what the Japanese can do with more characters.
He's not sandbagging, exactly. He's still learning a lot by playing with that character. And actually, if you ask to play against his Rufus, he will oblige.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
I don't think anyone is going to disagree that it is more interesting. I main Fuerte and I don't change from him in tourneys at all, though I've strongly considered doing it a few times against Blanka just because I hate fighting that match up. I am pretty competent with 3-4 characters, but I have yet to try and pull that in a tourney if onyl because I feel like I can pull out the win with my Fuerte. But on the same note, it's unlikely that I will be winning any sort of large tournament on a regular basis.
For me personally, it's about doing everything I can with my main character, but I can't knock on people for doing what will win them the tournament. Just like I can't hate people for playing Gief or Blanka even though their characters are bastards.
Fuck Blanka.
Yeah, and when the game first came out and I started punishing shoryukens with c.fp xx m.sbk it felt like I was counterpicking everyone.
You're not special.
He's just so much more fun than everyone else.
It felt like I was counterpicking everyone.
This also comes to mind.
As in, you're not gonna win any major tournaments because you main fuerte.
You know, me making a really bad fuerte joke.
Oh that is a way better title.
edit: god damn it.
GT: Tanky the Tank
Black: 1377 6749 7425
Edit: Yo we heard you like to counterpick so we put an infinite on your counterpick so you can infinite Thawk while you counterpick.