FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU all loading screens are so long!!!!!
troublebrewing on
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
I'm sorry, but it seems to be abused much more frequently than it is used responsibly. And it doesn't tell you anything you won't learn after the first pull anyway. Or just by inspecting manually. Honestly people can have it installed for all I care, just don't tell me about it. I dont' have a damn clue what 2000gs means compared to 9000gs. Except maybe that 9000gs is better? Is it a logarithmic scale? Does it count incorrect gear? Does any of this even matter?. Gearscore tells you one thing: their gearscore. The only use for this data is epeen contests.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
I swear there is NO VALUE in condensing a person's gear into a number and using that number to determine who you run with. I find the concept itself inherently offensive. Holding recount against someone is one thing, that just makes you a dick(Unless you're actually running into a DPS wall like Festergut). But rejecting people because of Gearscore makes you a dick AND a moron.
I've run with people in greens and blues that completely blew away people in modern raid gear. Because one of these people knew how to play their class. And one was essentially buttonmashing.
lol u mad? low gs fgt l2p
but in all seriousness it sucks but it is what it is. It's about the same as "LINK ACHIEVE OR NO INVITE" or "SAY THAT TO MY FACE FAGGOT NOT ONLINE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS"
Anyone else getting a dumb thing happening, where you try to grab a quest, and the quest window keeps closing by itself? Or is one of my addons being retarded?
This is happening to me as well. It's driving me nuts.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
So, I thought the new honor commendations you get from turning in BG marks were BoA? Did that change on the last PTR push or was that never the case and I just misread?
I didn't think you got honour commendations for it? I thought it was just a quest turn in with 187 honour rewarded.
Hahaha, no. That'd be the smart thing to do.
Instead, it's an item that gives X honor per use. You buy it from the old BG Daily quest giver. It only stacks to ten AND has a cooldown of a GCD or so, making it VERY FUCKING ANNOYING if you had a lot of one BG.
Things horribly wrong with this patch:
- The honor tokens only stack to ten. Why? What conceivable reason could they have for this?
- The honor tokens play that stupid /train emote every time you use them. Every time.
- The honor tokens have a two second cooldown. Why? WHY? Because of this, I calculated that I have to spend over an hour just clicking the tokens to use them all. That's not even counting the time spent buying them, which is not insignificant because of the stacking issue.
- You can no longer queue for specific battlegrounds to join your friends who are already in one. I guess this isn't a big issue; I mean, I can't remember the last time I did this. Except for yesterday. And the day before that. And the day before that. And almost every time I've PvPed since the queue-from-cities system was released.
- You can't queue for another battleground while queued for a random.
- The Random Battleground option isn't available below 80. This wouldn't matter if the daily quest was still available, but they removed that.
Overall, a massive /facepalm for Blizzard here. The tokens issues will go away soon, but those last three problems are serious shortcomings that had no reason to appear.
Saeris on
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I swear there is NO VALUE in condensing a person's gear into a number and using that number to determine who you run with. I find the concept itself inherently offensive. Holding recount against someone is one thing, that just makes you a dick(Unless you're actually running into a DPS wall like Festergut). But rejecting people because of Gearscore makes you a dick AND a moron.
I've run with people in greens and blues that completely blew away people in modern raid gear. Because one of these people knew how to play their class. And one was essentially buttonmashing.
lol u mad? low gs fgt l2p
but in all seriousness it sucks but it is what it is. It's about the same as "LINK ACHIEVE OR NO INVITE" or "SAY THAT TO MY FACE FAGGOT NOT ONLINE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS"
Yeh. I basically consider "lfm toc 10 man 5000 gs min" an abuse of the addon.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
- You can't queue for another battleground while queued for a random.
Definitely for all your points. For this point specifically, I can see their reasoning, but why the hell doesn't it just unqueue you from the bg queue when you join a dungeon and vice versa? (Rhetorical question: obviously that's what it should do.)
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
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BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
really though it's mostly used by the ignorant/lazy as a way to skirt having to do any sort of critical thinking. The bad part about it is probably 9 out of 10 times as a pug raid leader doing "old" content, it's more than likely the most prudent course of action. That being, "gather them up and let the terribles out themselves later I just want to get this done."
Not trying to defend the mindset, but really that's the only way I see the addon as practical in any sense.
Beezel on
PSN: Waybackkidd
"...only mights and maybes."
0
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
This is why a better tool or methodology will never catch on.
I hope I'm wrong.
I do have Elitist Group Sender installed. All this does is remotely send my gear to people who have Elitist Group (and tell them my main's achieves?). I kinda like the idea of Elitist Group, but not enough to actually use it yet.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Inspecting each person is timely, and pugs demand instant gratification. Demanding to inspect each person can get you feeling lonely quickly. Gearscore is not perfect, but speeds up the process.
And a 4000gs sucky dude will have a better chance at dps than a 2000gs dude. A good player will do well no matter what, so it's still in your favor to seek out higher gearscore. Even a player with good gemming and enchants will not necessarily be good at playing the game.
It's all a crapshoot, so gearscore just helps turn the odds in your favor a bit. This doesn't excuse a strict limit or rabid adherence in the face of solid evidence to the contrary. I don't even have the mod myself, nor any idea what my gs would be.
- You can't queue for another battleground while queued for a random.
Definitely for all your points. For this point specifically, I can see their reasoning, but why the hell doesn't it just unqueue you from the bg queue when you join a dungeon and vice versa? (Rhetorical question: obviously that's what it should do.)
Actually I was referring to the fact that you can't be queued for a random battleground and any other battleground at the same time. But being unable to use the dungeon finder and be in a battleground queue at the same time is another thing that bothers me.
GS is dumb and I hate it. Some of my silly goose guild mates bring it up quite a bit, and I nerdrage every time. But to be fair, I remember pugs in BC requiring X +healing/+spell damage/whatever for even normal 5-mans, where X is only attainable by being decked out in gear far past the pugged content. GS just makes it easier than ever.
GS is dumb and I hate it. Some of my silly goose guild mates bring it up quite a bit, and I nerdrage every time. But to be fair, I remember pugs in BC requiring X +healing/+spell damage/whatever for even normal 5-mans, where X is only attainable by being decked out in gear far past the pugged content. GS just makes it easier than ever.
Yep, one of my first mains was a Warlock and you'd be turned down for runs because you didn't have the magic number of SP to get in. They'd sit there for an hour waiting for a 5th rather than take the 'nublock' who was short 200sp.
On another note, this thread makes me want to resubscribe and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
So, I thought the new honor commendations you get from turning in BG marks were BoA? Did that change on the last PTR push or was that never the case and I just misread?
I didn't think you got honour commendations for it? I thought it was just a quest turn in with 187 honour rewarded.
Hahaha, no. That'd be the smart thing to do.
Instead, it's an item that gives X honor per use. You buy it from the old BG Daily quest giver. It only stacks to ten AND has a cooldown of a GCD or so, making it VERY FUCKING ANNOYING if you had a lot of one BG.
Things horribly wrong with this patch:
- The honor tokens only stack to ten. Why? What conceivable reason could they have for this?
- The honor tokens play that stupid /train emote every time you use them. Every time.
- The honor tokens have a two second cooldown. Why? WHY? Because of this, I calculated that I have to spend over an hour just clicking the tokens to use them all. That's not even counting the time spent buying them, which is not insignificant because of the stacking issue.
- You can no longer queue for specific battlegrounds to join your friends who are already in one. I guess this isn't a big issue; I mean, I can't remember the last time I did this. Except for yesterday. And the day before that. And the day before that. And almost every time I've PvPed since the queue-from-cities system was released.
- You can't queue for another battleground while queued for a random.
- The Random Battleground option isn't available below 80. This wouldn't matter if the daily quest was still available, but they removed that.
Overall, a massive /facepalm for Blizzard here. The tokens issues will go away soon, but those last three problems are serious shortcomings that had no reason to appear.
Being able to queue for specific battlegrounds let to the ability for people to coordinate cross-realms premades over Vent which steamrolled and locked down BG's on servers. Most of these premade vent servers were run for profit, so if you wanted to get into a BG, you needed to be in the premade. The lure here was that you could do an AV in about 10 minutes and get about 12,000 honor per hour. With the BG changes, you can do this now just by queueing for randoms. I just made 7500 honor on my first random BG of the day in about 15 min on Strands.
Oh boy. I've been staring at the loading screen from IF to Dalaran for ten minutes now.
quaigy on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Random battleground isn't available for low levels. It's not a huge problem because you can only queue up for WSG and AB anyway, but it'd be nice to get a bit of extra honor without having to do a specific BG for the daily quest.
IMHO, it's much more common to see a person with a low GS do a crappier job of healing/tanking/DPSing than a person with a very high GS get outdone in the healing/tanking/DPSing category.
Sure, everyone on this forum can always point that that one example where they out did someone with a higher GS or got booted from a group because of "lrn2gslolz". But the reality is, GS is derived from having better gear, which is generally gathered by overcoming more difficult challenges, most of those as part of a raid.
However, the biggest caveat to that is the 4200-4900 GS range, which is mostly Tier 9 gear. I think we can all agree, anything bought with Triumph badges, including Tier 9 is essentially welfare gear any schlep with enough time to run randoms can get, but oh that's the price we pay for making great gear easier to obtain.
If I'm starting a PUG raid, and I see two people in front on me to chose from (that I personally know nothing about), I'm going to take the one with better raid achievements and a higher GS every single time.
IMHO, it's much more common to see a person with a low GS do a crappier job of healing/tanking/DPSing than a person with a very high GS get outdone in the healing/tanking/DPSing category.
Sure, everyone on this forum can always point that that one example where they out did someone with a higher GS or got booted from a group because of "lrn2gslolz". But the reality is, GS is derived from having better gear, which is generally gathered by overcoming more difficult challenges, most of those as part of a raid.
However, the biggest caveat to that is the 4200-4900 GS range, which is mostly Tier 9 gear. I think we can all agree, anything bought with Triumph badges, including Tier 9 is essentially welfare gear any schlep with enough time to run randoms can get, but oh that's the price we pay for making great gear easier to obtain.
If I'm starting a PUG raid, and I see two people in front on me to chose from (that I personally know nothing about), I'm going to take the one with better raid achievements and a higher GS every single time.
It's not whether or not someone with higher gearscore does more DPS (Yeah it's also not uncommon for someone in a car to outrun an guy on a bike, that doesn't mean the dude in the street racing car doesn't have his fucking parking break on), it's the fact that people use gearscore like Arena rating.
"Oh you only have 4900? Sorry, we don't carry scrub terribad noobshits."
These people can all go fuck themselves.
Alongside anyone who defends them.
And you for using the term "Welfare gear".
Fucking seriously.
I worked my ass off to get my Shaman to 80.
I shouldn't have to go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC, and Onyxia before I'm allowed to wear t9-level gear.
Fuck this "Welfare epic" shit. It's entitled idiots who think they're better than someone because they got the 80 first.
T9 is not "devalued" because it's more available.
Shit, the sooner t10 is available the better just to watch the cascade of tears that it brings.
Especially if they just make t11 the starting tier for Cataclysm.
I have yet to see GS play a major role in determining anything other than "who has more free time on their hands." It has been no indicator of anything to date. Ever.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Gearscore has never, in my experience, mattered.
People who use it tend to live in a strange world where stupid people don't have friends willing to drag them through raids and give them lots of gear.
In fact, I think this is actually more prevalent than the opposite (gearscore actually means ability).
The Muffin Man on
0
DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
edited March 2010
Fuck yes, Muffin Man.
I made the mistake of going into the raids & dungeons sub-forum pre-ICC, and you would not believe (actually you probably would) the amount of whining about how easy TotC was, and how they hoped ICC was so hard only the top 10% of players could get through it to weed out the "welfare scrubs".
Seriously, that's pretty fucked up. Actively saying "I want content that everyone has to get, but barely anyone can enjoy". Reminds me way too much of TBC raiding.
These people can all go fuck themselves.
Alongside anyone who defends them.
And you for using the term "Welfare gear".
Fucking seriously.
I worked my ass off to get my Shaman to 80.
I shouldn't have to go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC, and Onyxia before I'm allowed to wear t9-level gear.
Fuck this "Welfare epic" shit. It's entitled idiots who think they're better than someone because they got the 80 first.
Here's the irony. People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids because they lack the skills and knowledge gained in the earlier raids to complete the more difficult challenges in the next tier of raids.
People who got their Tier gear face-rolling heroics are generally terrible in raids. So the irony here is you're saying "fuck GS, that doesn't mean anything" and then want to jump right into ICC because you're all geared and shit, when you simply don't have the knowledge or the skills necessary to do it. That's what's meant by "welfare epics".
That's why a lot of raid PUGs are failing now. Yes, at the end of the day it's skill over gear, but no one is learning the skills anymore. They just get their gear and think they're ready to roll.
Ultimately, people like you don't care about the challenge. It's all about getting the best gear. If you cared about the challenge, you'd go back and raid Ulduar or ToC. You'd do the encounters that would've gotten you the gear, so you're ready for the next raid. But instead, you just skip the content because to players like you, the content is not important. You mask that with this flimsy arguments about how everyone should get to experience the content, and raiding should be open to everyone, with is just bullshit.
It's all about playing dress up with your paper doll.
These people can all go fuck themselves.
Alongside anyone who defends them.
And you for using the term "Welfare gear".
Fucking seriously.
I worked my ass off to get my Shaman to 80.
I shouldn't have to go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC, and Onyxia before I'm allowed to wear t9-level gear.
Fuck this "Welfare epic" shit. It's entitled idiots who think they're better than someone because they got the 80 first.
Here's the irony. People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids because they lack the skills and knowledge gained in the earlier raids to complete the more difficult challenges in the next tier of raids.
People who got their Tier gear face-rolling heroics are generally terrible in raids. So the irony here is you're saying "fuck GS, that doesn't mean anything" and then want to jump right into ICC because you're all geared and shit, when you simply don't have the knowledge or the skills necessary to do it. That's what's meant by "welfare epics".
That's why a lot of raid PUGs are failing now. Yes, at the end of the day it's skill over gear, but no one is learning the skills anymore. They just get their gear and think they're ready to roll.
Ultimately, people like you don't care about the challenge. It's all about getting the best gear. If you cared about the challenge, you'd go back and raid Ulduar or ToC. You'd do the encounters that would've gotten you the gear, so you're ready for the next raid. But instead, you just skip the content because to players like you, the content is not important. You mask that with this flimsy arguments about how everyone should get to experience the content, and raiding should be open to everyone, with is just bullshit.
It's all about playing dress up with your paper doll.
I can only assume you weren't around in Vanilla and don't know why this proposed model of yours is ass-backwards terrible.
Inspecting each person is timely, and pugs demand instant gratification. Demanding to inspect each person can get you feeling lonely quickly. Gearscore is not perfect, but speeds up the process.
And a 4000gs sucky dude will have a better chance at dps than a 2000gs dude. A good player will do well no matter what, so it's still in your favor to seek out higher gearscore. Even a player with good gemming and enchants will not necessarily be good at playing the game.
It's all a crapshoot, so gearscore just helps turn the odds in your favor a bit. This doesn't excuse a strict limit or rabid adherence in the face of solid evidence to the contrary. I don't even have the mod myself, nor any idea what my gs would be.
But that's not how it's used in practice. You're describing a scenario where it's used correctly, but that's pretty much never the case.
These people can all go fuck themselves.
Alongside anyone who defends them.
And you for using the term "Welfare gear".
Fucking seriously.
I worked my ass off to get my Shaman to 80.
I shouldn't have to go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC, and Onyxia before I'm allowed to wear t9-level gear.
Fuck this "Welfare epic" shit. It's entitled idiots who think they're better than someone because they got the 80 first.
Here's the irony. People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids because they lack the skills and knowledge gained in the earlier raids to complete the more difficult challenges in the next tier of raids.
People who got their Tier gear face-rolling heroics are generally terrible in raids. So the irony here is you're saying "fuck GS, that doesn't mean anything" and then want to jump right into ICC because you're all geared and shit, when you simply don't have the knowledge or the skills necessary to do it. That's what's meant by "welfare epics".
That's why a lot of raid PUGs are failing now. Yes, at the end of the day it's skill over gear, but no one is learning the skills anymore. They just get their gear and think they're ready to roll.
Ultimately, people like you don't care about the challenge. It's all about getting the best gear. If you cared about the challenge, you'd go back and raid Ulduar or ToC. You'd do the encounters that would've gotten you the gear, so you're ready for the next raid. But instead, you just skip the content because to players like you, the content is not important. You mask that with this flimsy arguments about how everyone should get to experience the content, and raiding should be open to everyone, with is just bullshit.
It's all about playing dress up with your paper doll.
Hahaha, you are funny. A sad funny, to be sure, but funny.
Some of the heroics are harder than any single fight in ulduar or toc.
The issue in raids is making sure those three people you know are god damned retarded don't mess up. In heroics it's usually at the most one, and when they die you can usually finish without them. Raids? Not so much.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I didn't realize I was automatically terrible for not doing Naxx or Ulduar. Wow, thanks for letting me know!
I'm not saying you're a terrible player. I'm just saying, in a raid situation, someone who's gone through Naxx, Ulduar and ToC (assuming you haven't) is going to be a better raider.
I didn't realize I was automatically terrible for not doing Naxx or Ulduar. Wow, thanks for letting me know!
That's the thing - my Gnomelock helped down Illidan, but sure as hell didn't see down Archimonde, Kael'thas or Vashj. Likewise my DK tank, one of the more known on my server (it's a fucking small RP server, so word gets around fast as to who's good and who you avoid) hasn't downed Yogg-Saron, but he's tanked all the way through TotC and some of ICC.
Just because you don't know how encounters work in the previous tiers doesn't mean you'll be fucking clueless in the newer ones. There's a reason a lot of raiding groups and guilds say "Check tankspot. Check tactics. Look up tactics" everytime. Everyone's got to learn sometime, you can't rest on your laurels because of past deeds.
I didn't realize I was automatically terrible for not doing Naxx or Ulduar. Wow, thanks for letting me know!
I'm not saying you're a terrible player. I'm just saying, in a raid situation, someone who's gone through Naxx, Ulduar and ToC (assuming you haven't) is going to be a better raider.
"People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids"
Except that I only started playing an August, and am topping the DPS chart on trash and bosses every single week in my raid group over people that have been playing since classic beta.
I only have two pieces of Tier 9 left on my main spec, but it's not holding me back, and it's not limiting my skill. My offspec is full tier 9 because it was easy to get, and yet I've tanked ICC all the way up to Putricide in it. ICC is my first raid.
Posts
lol u mad? low gs fgt l2p
but in all seriousness it sucks but it is what it is. It's about the same as "LINK ACHIEVE OR NO INVITE" or "SAY THAT TO MY FACE FAGGOT NOT ONLINE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS"
"...only mights and maybes."
This is happening to me as well. It's driving me nuts.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Things horribly wrong with this patch:
- The honor tokens only stack to ten. Why? What conceivable reason could they have for this?
- The honor tokens play that stupid /train emote every time you use them. Every time.
- The honor tokens have a two second cooldown. Why? WHY? Because of this, I calculated that I have to spend over an hour just clicking the tokens to use them all. That's not even counting the time spent buying them, which is not insignificant because of the stacking issue.
- You can no longer queue for specific battlegrounds to join your friends who are already in one. I guess this isn't a big issue; I mean, I can't remember the last time I did this. Except for yesterday. And the day before that. And the day before that. And almost every time I've PvPed since the queue-from-cities system was released.
- You can't queue for another battleground while queued for a random.
- The Random Battleground option isn't available below 80. This wouldn't matter if the daily quest was still available, but they removed that.
Overall, a massive /facepalm for Blizzard here. The tokens issues will go away soon, but those last three problems are serious shortcomings that had no reason to appear.
Yeh. I basically consider "lfm toc 10 man 5000 gs min" an abuse of the addon.
"...only mights and maybes."
This is why a better tool or methodology will never catch on.
Definitely for all your points. For this point specifically, I can see their reasoning, but why the hell doesn't it just unqueue you from the bg queue when you join a dungeon and vice versa? (Rhetorical question: obviously that's what it should do.)
Not trying to defend the mindset, but really that's the only way I see the addon as practical in any sense.
"...only mights and maybes."
I do have Elitist Group Sender installed. All this does is remotely send my gear to people who have Elitist Group (and tell them my main's achieves?). I kinda like the idea of Elitist Group, but not enough to actually use it yet.
And a 4000gs sucky dude will have a better chance at dps than a 2000gs dude. A good player will do well no matter what, so it's still in your favor to seek out higher gearscore. Even a player with good gemming and enchants will not necessarily be good at playing the game.
It's all a crapshoot, so gearscore just helps turn the odds in your favor a bit. This doesn't excuse a strict limit or rabid adherence in the face of solid evidence to the contrary. I don't even have the mod myself, nor any idea what my gs would be.
Actually I was referring to the fact that you can't be queued for a random battleground and any other battleground at the same time. But being unable to use the dungeon finder and be in a battleground queue at the same time is another thing that bothers me.
Yep, one of my first mains was a Warlock and you'd be turned down for runs because you didn't have the magic number of SP to get in. They'd sit there for an hour waiting for a 5th rather than take the 'nublock' who was short 200sp.
On another note, this thread makes me want to resubscribe and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
STEAM | XBL | PSN
Being able to queue for specific battlegrounds let to the ability for people to coordinate cross-realms premades over Vent which steamrolled and locked down BG's on servers. Most of these premade vent servers were run for profit, so if you wanted to get into a BG, you needed to be in the premade. The lure here was that you could do an AV in about 10 minutes and get about 12,000 honor per hour. With the BG changes, you can do this now just by queueing for randoms. I just made 7500 honor on my first random BG of the day in about 15 min on Strands.
Sure, everyone on this forum can always point that that one example where they out did someone with a higher GS or got booted from a group because of "lrn2gslolz". But the reality is, GS is derived from having better gear, which is generally gathered by overcoming more difficult challenges, most of those as part of a raid.
However, the biggest caveat to that is the 4200-4900 GS range, which is mostly Tier 9 gear. I think we can all agree, anything bought with Triumph badges, including Tier 9 is essentially welfare gear any schlep with enough time to run randoms can get, but oh that's the price we pay for making great gear easier to obtain.
If I'm starting a PUG raid, and I see two people in front on me to chose from (that I personally know nothing about), I'm going to take the one with better raid achievements and a higher GS every single time.
Silly Goose still won't drop the mount though
It's not whether or not someone with higher gearscore does more DPS (Yeah it's also not uncommon for someone in a car to outrun an guy on a bike, that doesn't mean the dude in the street racing car doesn't have his fucking parking break on), it's the fact that people use gearscore like Arena rating.
"Oh you only have 4900? Sorry, we don't carry scrub terribad noobshits."
These people can all go fuck themselves.
Alongside anyone who defends them.
And you for using the term "Welfare gear".
Fucking seriously.
I worked my ass off to get my Shaman to 80.
I shouldn't have to go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC, and Onyxia before I'm allowed to wear t9-level gear.
Fuck this "Welfare epic" shit. It's entitled idiots who think they're better than someone because they got the 80 first.
T9 is not "devalued" because it's more available.
Shit, the sooner t10 is available the better just to watch the cascade of tears that it brings.
Especially if they just make t11 the starting tier for Cataclysm.
People who use it tend to live in a strange world where stupid people don't have friends willing to drag them through raids and give them lots of gear.
In fact, I think this is actually more prevalent than the opposite (gearscore actually means ability).
I made the mistake of going into the raids & dungeons sub-forum pre-ICC, and you would not believe (actually you probably would) the amount of whining about how easy TotC was, and how they hoped ICC was so hard only the top 10% of players could get through it to weed out the "welfare scrubs".
Seriously, that's pretty fucked up. Actively saying "I want content that everyone has to get, but barely anyone can enjoy". Reminds me way too much of TBC raiding.
Here's the irony. People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids because they lack the skills and knowledge gained in the earlier raids to complete the more difficult challenges in the next tier of raids.
People who got their Tier gear face-rolling heroics are generally terrible in raids. So the irony here is you're saying "fuck GS, that doesn't mean anything" and then want to jump right into ICC because you're all geared and shit, when you simply don't have the knowledge or the skills necessary to do it. That's what's meant by "welfare epics".
That's why a lot of raid PUGs are failing now. Yes, at the end of the day it's skill over gear, but no one is learning the skills anymore. They just get their gear and think they're ready to roll.
Ultimately, people like you don't care about the challenge. It's all about getting the best gear. If you cared about the challenge, you'd go back and raid Ulduar or ToC. You'd do the encounters that would've gotten you the gear, so you're ready for the next raid. But instead, you just skip the content because to players like you, the content is not important. You mask that with this flimsy arguments about how everyone should get to experience the content, and raiding should be open to everyone, with is just bullshit.
It's all about playing dress up with your paper doll.
I can only assume you weren't around in Vanilla and don't know why this proposed model of yours is ass-backwards terrible.
But that's not how it's used in practice. You're describing a scenario where it's used correctly, but that's pretty much never the case.
Hahaha, you are funny. A sad funny, to be sure, but funny.
The issue in raids is making sure those three people you know are god damned retarded don't mess up. In heroics it's usually at the most one, and when they die you can usually finish without them. Raids? Not so much.
I'm not saying you're a terrible player. I'm just saying, in a raid situation, someone who's gone through Naxx, Ulduar and ToC (assuming you haven't) is going to be a better raider.
That's the thing - my Gnomelock helped down Illidan, but sure as hell didn't see down Archimonde, Kael'thas or Vashj. Likewise my DK tank, one of the more known on my server (it's a fucking small RP server, so word gets around fast as to who's good and who you avoid) hasn't downed Yogg-Saron, but he's tanked all the way through TotC and some of ICC.
Just because you don't know how encounters work in the previous tiers doesn't mean you'll be fucking clueless in the newer ones. There's a reason a lot of raiding groups and guilds say "Check tankspot. Check tactics. Look up tactics" everytime. Everyone's got to learn sometime, you can't rest on your laurels because of past deeds.
"People who didn't go through Nax, Ulduar, ToC or Onyxia are terrible in raids"
Except that I only started playing an August, and am topping the DPS chart on trash and bosses every single week in my raid group over people that have been playing since classic beta.
I only have two pieces of Tier 9 left on my main spec, but it's not holding me back, and it's not limiting my skill. My offspec is full tier 9 because it was easy to get, and yet I've tanked ICC all the way up to Putricide in it. ICC is my first raid.
But I guess I'm terrible and wouldn't know.