Also, facial paint and ceremonial dress are explicitly religious items. It's not hard to see how offended people would be when their religion is co-opted for something as tawdry as a 'sexy' video by a lame Lady GaGa ripoff, especially in light of the way their religious beliefs have been treated in the past.
Who cares? People do this to Christianity all the time. Someone did it to another religion. This isn't a racial issue.
So is what we are saying here, "If someone dresses up like someone from another culture and dresses up sexy, they are trivializing that culture"?
No. What we are saying is that when a member of a privileged culture appropriates a token of a marginalized culture, particularly for a purpose that could be considered profane or obscene, they are doing something offensive.
Sure, you could be offended. It is just the usual shock stuff that pop music does for attention.
It still isn't a racial issue.
Well, given that race has no real meaning outside of cultural identification, you could argue that anything isn't a racial issue.
But that doesn't have much bearing on the discussion.
I used to think that racism was kinda on its way out of the back-door. coming from a small town with a lot of mixed races, where miraculously everyone seems to get along except for a couple of stupid bad apples spoiling things up... then i went to college. now i understand what all the fuss is about.
@Irond Will
You say that the attitudinal problem of whites isn't the problem, but I'd say that it is. It may not be overt anymore, but aversive racism has a good amount of studies to back it up. If opportunity in America was equal in actuality as opposed to simply in theory, there'd be no need for affirmative action. The theory is that women and minorities are disadvantaged on a whole not just because of history, but because of subconcious biases that many people don't even realize they have.
I obviously can't argue with subconcious aversive racism since it's not really something that is easy to measure, let alone demonstrate the effect of. However, even if there were none whatsoever, blacks would remain on average at roughly the same socioeconomic rung ad infititum without some measure to shake up the income and wealth distribution in the country.
I do try to understand where people are coming from, but as pointed out in that ONTD example, the best you'll get in response to "Help me understand" is "Fuck you, retard. Why don't you fucking pick up a book? It's not MY obligation to teach YOU what you should ALREADY KNOW."
They're rude about it, but they're also not wrong. You're just one of a million people who do the exact same thing in threads like that, and for regulars on those communities, it gets really fucking old trying to explain the basic underpinnings of an entire social movement over and over and over again. Add to that the simple fact that a lot of people ask similar questions to you in bad faith, as a troll/timewasting attempt.
Wikipedia and other educational sites exist for a reason, and you are obligated to educate yourself before charging in and yelling about how you Don't Understand And Won't Someone Please Take the Time to Explain to you Because You're Too Special For Google.
Anyway, Duffel won this shit on the first page, and I'm disappointed that that hasn't been acknowledged by more people in here. But then, it appears they'd rather whine about how hard it is to be white and reminded of basic history >_<
@Irond Will
You say that the attitudinal problem of whites isn't the problem, but I'd say that it is. It may not be overt anymore, but aversive racism has a good amount of studies to back it up. If opportunity in America was equal in actuality as opposed to simply in theory, there'd be no need for affirmative action. The theory is that women and minorities are disadvantaged on a whole not just because of history, but because of subconcious biases that many people don't even realize they have.
I obviously can't argue with subconcious aversive racism since it's not really something that is easy to measure, let alone demonstrate the effect of. However, even if there were none whatsoever, blacks would remain on average at roughly the same socioeconomic rung ad infititum without some measure to shake up the income and wealth distribution in the country.
Um... I would think the theory that most Democrats were crypto-racists and wouldn't vote for a black presidential candidate would be fairly discredited at this point.
So is what we are saying here, "If someone dresses up like someone from another culture and dresses up sexy, they are trivializing that culture"?
If they do it without respect and an attempt to get the details right, absoutely. God, someone post the pic of those Russian Olympic ice dancers with the 'aboriginal' routine. Case in point.
I figured I'd post the thread so that I could give a better example of what I've done to see if it changes anyone's minds. I'm really new to this racism/sexism stuff that isn't "IN YOUR FACE KARATE CHOP TO THE NECK" obvious. So, I'm learning here.
I am obviously gunsofporn.
and while this obviously isn't in any relation to the thread, I don't mind if anyone befriends me on there if they're looking for buddies.
Ok, you come off as an idiot in that comments thread, just so you know. Also, quite defensive. And you're massively exaggerating how aggressive the replies were. I'm not at all surprised the comments went that way, and frankly I've seen far, far sillier threads on LJ.
A sex doll isn't that much worse than a vibrator, yet a vibrator is fairly well accepted.
There are sex dolls designed for women as well as men.
Sex toys for women have been, by and large, portrayed positively in the media while men who own toys are made out to be perverts and sleazebags.
By and large, yeah, without a doubt women are objectified way more often than men, but you gals have the corner on artificial stimulus.
That's true. If a female sex doll reduces a woman to a sexual object, a dildo reduces a single male organ into a sexual object for the pleasure of women. I don't see a difference between the two. The only difference is bias.
After decades of feminism there is so much sensitivity towards women's issues. People are ready to viciously jump on anything that seems like discrimination against women. You can't criticize a woman for having a sex toy because you are oppressing her sexuality. However, it's perfectly socially acceptable to criticize a man. Not only does him having a sex toy, same deal, demean women, he is a failure as a man because he is admitting that he cannot acquire the company of a woman and satisfy her. Two of the many things that society expects him to do if he's going to be called a "man." On top of that, there is the common perception that female sexuality is beautiful, sacred and divine while male sexuality is perverted and evil.
Edit: On racism, it really doesn't concern me too much. I don't freak out. I'm actually a member of Stormfront. Mostly just for access to their music forum though. I'm fairly apathetic about racism against blacks. Maybe it's because it's much less of an issue in Canada and my Aunt does work within the Native community but if I'm going to try to change anything, I'd look to help the Natives.
I do try to understand where people are coming from, but as pointed out in that ONTD example, the best you'll get in response to "Help me understand" is "Fuck you, retard. Why don't you fucking pick up a book? It's not MY obligation to teach YOU what you should ALREADY KNOW."
They're rude about it, but they're also not wrong. You're just one of a million people who do the exact same thing in threads like that, and for regulars on those communities, it gets really fucking old trying to explain the basic underpinnings of an entire social movement over and over and over again. Add to that the simple fact that a lot of people ask similar questions to you in bad faith, as a troll/timewasting attempt.
Wikipedia and other educational sites exist for a reason, and you are obligated to educate yourself before charging in and yelling about how you Don't Understand And Won't Someone Please Take the Time to Explain to you Because You're Too Special For Google.
Anyway, Duffel won this shit on the first page, and I'm disappointed that that hasn't been acknowledged by more people in here. But then, it appears they'd rather whine about how hard it is to be white and reminded of basic history >_<
I wouldn't say I was too special for google, but that there is SO much out there, and wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE at any moment, and you've got a chance for breeding around misinformation.
I think, and I mean this without disrespect, that if we all just used google to learn why shit is the way it is instead of asking about it with other people then we'll never have a true discourse on the subject. I get that it can be annoying to be asked questions dozens of times over but if you leave people to use a tool that in itself is flawed, I think your exacerbate the problem.
I figured I'd post the thread so that I could give a better example of what I've done to see if it changes anyone's minds. I'm really new to this racism/sexism stuff that isn't "IN YOUR FACE KARATE CHOP TO THE NECK" obvious. So, I'm learning here.
I am obviously gunsofporn.
and while this obviously isn't in any relation to the thread, I don't mind if anyone befriends me on there if they're looking for buddies.
Ok, you come off as an idiot in that comments thread, just so you know. Also, quite defensive. And you're massively exaggerating how aggressive the replies were. I'm not at all surprised the comments went that way, and frankly I've seen far, far sillier threads on LJ.
Overreaction++
I come off as an idiot......how? This is what I'm talking about as obviously I DIDN'T know I was coming off as an idiot and standing by an opinion I had. I don't see the problem with the headdress, I already that the example I used was weak, what else? . A short, 1 to 2 sentence reply setting me straight wouldn't hurt.
Edited to say: I also think you're highly misunderstanding my tone in that thread. I wasn't defensive at all and was genuinely curious.
Hey, google's how I learned. Read a lot of blogs, sorted through a lot of opinions, and yes, silly silly comments threads, and aggregated a set of opinions my own. I've never actually sat down and read a text on feminism, even though that's one of my board Things.
If you want to take part in these discussions, you have to put some effort in.
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acidlacedpenguinInstitutionalizedSafe in jail.Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
I think it is woefully ironic that one of the commentators for that article which was posing a question about insensitivity (of some kind) has the name "iLuvDykes."
I figured I'd post the thread so that I could give a better example of what I've done to see if it changes anyone's minds. I'm really new to this racism/sexism stuff that isn't "IN YOUR FACE KARATE CHOP TO THE NECK" obvious. So, I'm learning here.
I am obviously gunsofporn.
and while this obviously isn't in any relation to the thread, I don't mind if anyone befriends me on there if they're looking for buddies.
Ok, you come off as an idiot in that comments thread, just so you know. Also, quite defensive. And you're massively exaggerating how aggressive the replies were. I'm not at all surprised the comments went that way, and frankly I've seen far, far sillier threads on LJ.
Overreaction++
I come off as an idiot......how? This is what I'm talking about as obviously I DIDN'T know I was coming off as an idiot and standing by an opinion I had. I don't see the problem with the headdress, I already that the example I used was weak, what else? . A short, 1 to 2 sentence reply setting me straight wouldn't hurt.
"please do tell" pushed it over the edge for me. posting all caps is pretty annoying too, but most of all, your first reply just jumped straight to implying that the commenter and the OP were making a fuss about nothing, solely because you said so. And you did this in a forum that attempts to discuss racial issues.
If I walked into G&T and told the locals that games were for spotty nerds and they should go outside and kick a football, I'd expect about the same reaction.
I'm going to work now, lets see how many pages this gets before 5pm...
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
If I walked into G&T and told the locals that games were for spotty nerds and they should go outside and kick a football, I'd expect about the same reaction.
but if you somehow managed to add some RPG level progression/every-time-you-do-something-you-get-to-see-a-little-bar-slowly-fill-up, us G&T folks would eat that up and you'd become some sort of millionaire!
If I walked into G&T and told the locals that games were for spotty nerds and they should go outside and kick a football, I'd expect about the same reaction.
but if you somehow managed to add some RPG level progression/every-time-you-do-something-you-get-to-see-a-little-bar-slowly-fill-up, us G&T folks would eat that up and you'd become some sort of millionaire!
A sex doll isn't that much worse than a vibrator, yet a vibrator is fairly well accepted.
There are sex dolls designed for women as well as men.
Sex toys for women have been, by and large, portrayed positively in the media while men who own toys are made out to be perverts and sleazebags.
By and large, yeah, without a doubt women are objectified way more often than men, but you gals have the corner on artificial stimulus.
That's true. If a female sex doll reduces a woman to a sexual object, a dildo reduces a single male organ into a sexual object for the pleasure of women. I don't see a difference between the two. The only difference is bias.
After decades of feminism there is so much sensitivity towards women's issues. People are ready to viciously jump on anything that seems like discrimination against women. You can't criticize a woman for having a sex toy because you are oppressing her sexuality. However, it's perfectly socially acceptable to criticize a man. Not only does him having a sex toy, same deal, demean women, he is a failure as a man because he is admitting that he cannot acquire the company of a woman and satisfy her. Two of the many things that society expects him to do if he's going to be called a "man." On top of that, there is the common perception that female sexuality is beautiful, sacred and divine while male sexuality is perverted and evil.
Edit: On racism, it really doesn't concern me too much. I don't freak out. I'm actually a member of Stormfront. Mostly just for access to their music forum though. I'm fairly apathetic about racism against blacks. Maybe it's because it's much less of an issue in Canada and my Aunt does work within the Native community but if I'm going to try to change anything, I'd look to help the Natives.
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
I figured I'd post the thread so that I could give a better example of what I've done to see if it changes anyone's minds. I'm really new to this racism/sexism stuff that isn't "IN YOUR FACE KARATE CHOP TO THE NECK" obvious. So, I'm learning here.
I am obviously gunsofporn.
and while this obviously isn't in any relation to the thread, I don't mind if anyone befriends me on there if they're looking for buddies.
Ok, you come off as an idiot in that comments thread, just so you know. Also, quite defensive. And you're massively exaggerating how aggressive the replies were. I'm not at all surprised the comments went that way, and frankly I've seen far, far sillier threads on LJ.
Overreaction++
I come off as an idiot......how? This is what I'm talking about as obviously I DIDN'T know I was coming off as an idiot and standing by an opinion I had. I don't see the problem with the headdress, I already that the example I used was weak, what else? . A short, 1 to 2 sentence reply setting me straight wouldn't hurt.
"please do tell" pushed it over the edge for me. posting all caps is pretty annoying too, but most of all, your first reply just jumped straight to implying that the commenter and the OP were making a fuss about nothing, solely because you said so. And you did this in a forum that attempts to discuss racial issues.
If I walked into G&T and told the locals that games were for spotty nerds and they should go outside and kick a football, I'd expect about the same reaction.
I'm going to work now, lets see how many pages this gets before 5pm...
"Please do tell" was sincere. And I only typed one word in caps (the word "Thousands" or as it appears in the thread: "THOUSANDS")
But I'll check out the blogs people posted here, and I still need something better than feminism 101 because it's a pain to navigate.
Is the topic of the meanfulness of culture and whether it is worthy of respect a significant enough derail to be worth a new thread? I think we could get some decent discussion on that, either within or without the thread.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life without including water.
So is what we are saying here, "If someone dresses up like someone from another culture and dresses up sexy, they are trivializing that culture"?
While pretending that something exists in a total vacuum might work for freshman physics problems, it turns out to be pretty shitty for discussing social issues in reality.
No tone on the internet. No one says "please do tell" and means it. It's like saying "cool story, brah" and actually thinking the story is cool. People are going to think you're sarcastic.
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
I'm not completely white. I'm not even a white nationalist, don't tell them that or I'll get banned.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
It'd give us the option of branching off into other types of culture that we say aren't related to race because the people in them are mostly white instead of being mostly non-white.
For example, we could talk about how hippies are subversive to the order of America, and how they need to bathe more often.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
Never said race wasn't a cultural construct. That does not mean all things from a culture are racial. I am saying that this is an example of something that is cultural but not racial.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
So is what we are saying here, "If someone dresses up like someone from another culture and dresses up sexy, they are trivializing that culture"?
While pretending that something exists in a total vacuum might work for freshman physics problems, it turns out to be pretty shitty for discussing social issues in reality.
Yeah, but to throw stark and serious context into everything makes the world less fun. It especially sucks when people throw improper context into something.
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
I'm not completely white. I'm not even a white nationalist, don't tell them that or I'll get banned.
Maybe you should go hang out at a normal music forum then.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
No tone on the internet. No one says "please do tell" and means it. It's like saying "cool story, brah" and actually thinking the story is cool. People are going to think you're sarcastic.
Kthxbye is one that will never ever come off as anything but rude dickery.
I think, and I mean this without disrespect, that if we all just used google to learn why shit is the way it is instead of asking about it with other people then we'll never have a true discourse on the subject. I get that it can be annoying to be asked questions dozens of times over but if you leave people to use a tool that in itself is flawed, I think your exacerbate the problem.
So you're hesitant to trust a source that, while not always stringently, often checked and verified by other users, however you're all for taking the word from some guy on a comments board?
I think, and I mean this without disrespect, that if we all just used google to learn why shit is the way it is instead of asking about it with other people then we'll never have a true discourse on the subject. I get that it can be annoying to be asked questions dozens of times over but if you leave people to use a tool that in itself is flawed, I think your exacerbate the problem.
So you're hesitant to trust a source that, while not always stringently, often checked and verified by other users, however you're all for taking the word from some guy on a comments board?
Hey man, the entire internet can't edit that dude's comments.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
Never said race wasn't a cultural construct. That does not mean all things from a culture are racial. I am saying that this is an example of something that is cultural but not racial.
I think in the context of Native American religion, though, this is a religion that is very specifically associated with one cultural group (I hate using the word race in general because it's completely meaningless except in the context of cultural groups). It's a different situation than Christianity, which is practiced by billions of people who are widely diverse.
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
I'm not completely white. I'm not even a white nationalist, don't tell them that or I'll get banned.
Maybe you should go hang out at a normal music forum then.
No, they have the best black metal section I've found. I like to read their news section while I'm there too and I respect some of their values even if I don't hold them myself. I don't like how white nationalists are treated. They primarily identify with their race and I don't see a problem with that. I don't know anything about you but hell, say you are black and own a store. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to tell me, "Hey Casper! Get out of my shop! We don't serve your kind, didn't you see the sign out front?!" It's your shop! You should be able to serve whoever you want. A store with a "blacks only" or a "whites only" sign wouldn't last long anyway.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
Never said race wasn't a cultural construct. That does not mean all things from a culture are racial. I am saying that this is an example of something that is cultural but not racial.
I think in the context of Native American religion, though, this is a religion that is very specifically associated with one cultural group (I hate using the word race in general because it's completely meaningless except in the context of cultural groups). It's a different situation than Christianity, which is practiced by billions of people who are widely diverse.
Christianity is still just as much of a part of their culture, though.
In regards to race? I don't think it would be off-topic, because honestly having a meaningful discussion of race without including culture is like having a meaningful discussion of marine life physiology without including water.
Never said race wasn't a cultural construct. That does not mean all things from a culture are racial. I am saying that this is an example of something that is cultural but not racial.
I think in the context of Native American religion, though, this is a religion that is very specifically associated with one cultural group (I hate using the word race in general because it's completely meaningless except in the context of cultural groups). It's a different situation than Christianity, which is practiced by billions of people who are widely diverse.
Right. One cultural group. Not one race. The other cultural group, still racially Native American, might practice a totally different religion. Not to mention that the bonnet used in that video isn't religious anyway. Maybe the Sioux should be really pissed.
I suppose one might argue that it is a racial issue because many Native Americans wore them for the tourist industry in the 1800's.
this particular part from the article I find to be really stupid though
Listen to the song for what she and the men for that matter, are saying in the song. She is suggesting that there doesn't need to be a whole lot of discussion to get her in the back seat of his car,in fact, too much blah blah blah wont' get her in the backseat at all. Throw in a headdress, she is making a targeted statement to Native American/First Nations women's sexual practices of getting into the back seat of any man who doesn't care for them (meaning they will sleep with anybody).
That right there is quite a logical leap. I think it was more, here is a song, here is an outfit. Considering that is pretty much all of Kesha's songs, the song content isn't shocking. I think the dress was just a choice because it was strange. I seriously doubt Kesha is making a racial statement about Native Americans anymore than she is about Whites being slutty in her normal songs. Just she is slutty.
JebusUD on
and I wonder about my neighbors even though I don't have them
but they're listening to every word I say
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
I'm not completely white. I'm not even a white nationalist, don't tell them that or I'll get banned.
Maybe you should go hang out at a normal music forum then.
No, they have the best black metal section I've found. I like to read their news section while I'm there too and I respect some of their values even if I don't hold them myself. I don't like how white nationalists are treated. They primarily identify with their race and I don't see a problem with that. I don't know anything about you but hell, say you are black and own a store. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to tell me, "Hey Casper! Get out of my shop! We don't serve your kind, didn't you see the sign out front?!" It's your shop! You should be able to serve whoever you want. A store with a "blacks only" or a "whites only" sign wouldn't last long anyway.
Okay, Stormfront is a white nationalist organizations, and the "racial integrity of the white race" is a fucking retarded concept, only put forth by the worst sorts of racists.
The reason their values don't get any respect is because they don't deserve any. And we tried that whole "you can be a bigot if you want to be." It was called "segregation," and what it led to was a concentration of wealth and government services to white people. So, while it's a nice idea in theory (that's sarcasm; it really isn't), in practice it's fucking awful, and you should seriously re-evaluate your "not a white nationalist" persona for advocating it.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
I'm not completely white. I'm not even a white nationalist, don't tell them that or I'll get banned.
Maybe you should go hang out at a normal music forum then.
No, they have the best black metal section I've found. I like to read their news section while I'm there too and I respect some of their values even if I don't hold them myself. I don't like how white nationalists are treated. They primarily identify with their race and I don't see a problem with that. I don't know anything about you but hell, say you are black and own a store. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to tell me, "Hey Casper! Get out of my shop! We don't serve your kind, didn't you see the sign out front?!" It's your shop! You should be able to serve whoever you want. A store with a "blacks only" or a "whites only" sign wouldn't last long anyway.
Keeping to your own kind must be really daunting for people that don't even identify themselves by race.
Posts
Well, given that race has no real meaning outside of cultural identification, you could argue that anything isn't a racial issue.
But that doesn't have much bearing on the discussion.
just wow man... the light turned on
Except it's not hard to demonstrate.
Color Blind or Just Plain Blind?
Aversive racism and medical interactions with Black patients: A field study
Wrong Color for the White House: Stanford AP-Yahoo Survey Finds Being Black May Cost Senator Obama the Presidency
The Nature of Contemporary Prejudice: Insights from Aversive Racism
There are plenty of studies to back it up.
They're rude about it, but they're also not wrong. You're just one of a million people who do the exact same thing in threads like that, and for regulars on those communities, it gets really fucking old trying to explain the basic underpinnings of an entire social movement over and over and over again. Add to that the simple fact that a lot of people ask similar questions to you in bad faith, as a troll/timewasting attempt.
Wikipedia and other educational sites exist for a reason, and you are obligated to educate yourself before charging in and yelling about how you Don't Understand And Won't Someone Please Take the Time to Explain to you Because You're Too Special For Google.
Anyway, Duffel won this shit on the first page, and I'm disappointed that that hasn't been acknowledged by more people in here. But then, it appears they'd rather whine about how hard it is to be white and reminded of basic history >_<
Um... I would think the theory that most Democrats were crypto-racists and wouldn't vote for a black presidential candidate would be fairly discredited at this point.
If they do it without respect and an attempt to get the details right, absoutely. God, someone post the pic of those Russian Olympic ice dancers with the 'aboriginal' routine. Case in point.
Ok, you come off as an idiot in that comments thread, just so you know. Also, quite defensive. And you're massively exaggerating how aggressive the replies were. I'm not at all surprised the comments went that way, and frankly I've seen far, far sillier threads on LJ.
Overreaction++
That's true. If a female sex doll reduces a woman to a sexual object, a dildo reduces a single male organ into a sexual object for the pleasure of women. I don't see a difference between the two. The only difference is bias.
After decades of feminism there is so much sensitivity towards women's issues. People are ready to viciously jump on anything that seems like discrimination against women. You can't criticize a woman for having a sex toy because you are oppressing her sexuality. However, it's perfectly socially acceptable to criticize a man. Not only does him having a sex toy, same deal, demean women, he is a failure as a man because he is admitting that he cannot acquire the company of a woman and satisfy her. Two of the many things that society expects him to do if he's going to be called a "man." On top of that, there is the common perception that female sexuality is beautiful, sacred and divine while male sexuality is perverted and evil.
Edit: On racism, it really doesn't concern me too much. I don't freak out. I'm actually a member of Stormfront. Mostly just for access to their music forum though. I'm fairly apathetic about racism against blacks. Maybe it's because it's much less of an issue in Canada and my Aunt does work within the Native community but if I'm going to try to change anything, I'd look to help the Natives.
I wouldn't say I was too special for google, but that there is SO much out there, and wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE at any moment, and you've got a chance for breeding around misinformation.
I think, and I mean this without disrespect, that if we all just used google to learn why shit is the way it is instead of asking about it with other people then we'll never have a true discourse on the subject. I get that it can be annoying to be asked questions dozens of times over but if you leave people to use a tool that in itself is flawed, I think your exacerbate the problem.
I come off as an idiot......how? This is what I'm talking about as obviously I DIDN'T know I was coming off as an idiot and standing by an opinion I had. I don't see the problem with the headdress, I already that the example I used was weak, what else? . A short, 1 to 2 sentence reply setting me straight wouldn't hurt.
Edited to say: I also think you're highly misunderstanding my tone in that thread. I wasn't defensive at all and was genuinely curious.
If you want to take part in these discussions, you have to put some effort in.
"please do tell" pushed it over the edge for me. posting all caps is pretty annoying too, but most of all, your first reply just jumped straight to implying that the commenter and the OP were making a fuss about nothing, solely because you said so. And you did this in a forum that attempts to discuss racial issues.
If I walked into G&T and told the locals that games were for spotty nerds and they should go outside and kick a football, I'd expect about the same reaction.
I'm going to work now, lets see how many pages this gets before 5pm...
Obviously.
The Village People? Worse than Hitler.
but if you somehow managed to add some RPG level progression/every-time-you-do-something-you-get-to-see-a-little-bar-slowly-fill-up, us G&T folks would eat that up and you'd become some sort of millionaire!
Pretty sure they already have that in football.
Of course someone who was part of a white supremacist, Neo-Nazi organization wouldn't really care about being a part in lessening racism.
"Please do tell" was sincere. And I only typed one word in caps (the word "Thousands" or as it appears in the thread: "THOUSANDS")
But I'll check out the blogs people posted here, and I still need something better than feminism 101 because it's a pain to navigate.
Spacewhale?
First of all, I wouldn't call them a Neo-Nazi organization. Only a fraction of the membership would qualify for that. I wouldn't call all of them white supremacists. It is a white nationalist website. The only thing they all have in common is a strong values regarding racial integrity of the white race. Also...
It'd give us the option of branching off into other types of culture that we say aren't related to race because the people in them are mostly white instead of being mostly non-white.
For example, we could talk about how hippies are subversive to the order of America, and how they need to bathe more often.
Never said race wasn't a cultural construct. That does not mean all things from a culture are racial. I am saying that this is an example of something that is cultural but not racial.
but they're listening to every word I say
Yeah, but to throw stark and serious context into everything makes the world less fun. It especially sucks when people throw improper context into something.
Maybe you should go hang out at a normal music forum then.
but they're listening to every word I say
Kthxbye is one that will never ever come off as anything but rude dickery.
So you're hesitant to trust a source that, while not always stringently, often checked and verified by other users, however you're all for taking the word from some guy on a comments board?
I think in the context of Native American religion, though, this is a religion that is very specifically associated with one cultural group (I hate using the word race in general because it's completely meaningless except in the context of cultural groups). It's a different situation than Christianity, which is practiced by billions of people who are widely diverse.
No, they have the best black metal section I've found. I like to read their news section while I'm there too and I respect some of their values even if I don't hold them myself. I don't like how white nationalists are treated. They primarily identify with their race and I don't see a problem with that. I don't know anything about you but hell, say you are black and own a store. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to tell me, "Hey Casper! Get out of my shop! We don't serve your kind, didn't you see the sign out front?!" It's your shop! You should be able to serve whoever you want. A store with a "blacks only" or a "whites only" sign wouldn't last long anyway.
Christianity is still just as much of a part of their culture, though.
Right. One cultural group. Not one race. The other cultural group, still racially Native American, might practice a totally different religion. Not to mention that the bonnet used in that video isn't religious anyway. Maybe the Sioux should be really pissed.
I suppose one might argue that it is a racial issue because many Native Americans wore them for the tourist industry in the 1800's.
this particular part from the article I find to be really stupid though
That right there is quite a logical leap. I think it was more, here is a song, here is an outfit. Considering that is pretty much all of Kesha's songs, the song content isn't shocking. I think the dress was just a choice because it was strange. I seriously doubt Kesha is making a racial statement about Native Americans anymore than she is about Whites being slutty in her normal songs. Just she is slutty.
but they're listening to every word I say
The reason their values don't get any respect is because they don't deserve any. And we tried that whole "you can be a bigot if you want to be." It was called "segregation," and what it led to was a concentration of wealth and government services to white people. So, while it's a nice idea in theory (that's sarcasm; it really isn't), in practice it's fucking awful, and you should seriously re-evaluate your "not a white nationalist" persona for advocating it.
Keeping to your own kind must be really daunting for people that don't even identify themselves by race.