Well orks are generally hard to bring down so if they advanced in single file using the bodys of the orks in front as a shield they'd constantly read the guard lines before they died. I think it would be awesome if IG constantly won on open maps while orks constantly won on closed maps so you'd have these contested zones of conflict that would basically be meat grinders for one of the factions. It would be so awesome if an ork player could strap a stormboyz rocket on his back and jump into the middle of a guard held fort and even better for the IG player because you'd experience real panic when it happened while you desperately tried to bayonet it down and hold the firing line.
I always friggin hated no unique classes and saw it as a symptom of WoW selling out(they were legit at some point! honestly!) when they made the shamy and paladin universal. I hated WAR's fucking mirror system with both sides getting the same goddamn spell/attack but they just renamed it and threw some fucking shading on it.
Throwing in massive ability gaps will encourage tactics--say IG vs orks. The orks constantly rape up close and every single ork player knows to just rush the IG. Instead of throwing in ogryns as a playable race/pet leave it like that so IG players advance cautiously and use squad/armored fist tactics.
Yes but that also throws skill out of the equation, you basicly end up with a situation where IG will win on every map where they have a field of fire and orkz will win on any map with cover that allows them mobility. This of course applies to battlegrounds only, on open world warfare you'd encourage orkz to give up open ground and defend in rugged terrain and this is healthy.
Yeah, exactly. I'd rather win or lose based on the skill of my team, not the fact that my faction has the improperly balanced class, or an advantage on a certain map type. Ask anyone who played much WAR how much fun PVP imbalance was. It practically killed the game.
Yeah, exactly. I'd rather win or lose based on the skill of my team, not the fact that my faction has the improperly balanced class, or an advantage on a certain map type. Ask anyone who played much WAR how much fun PVP imbalance was. It practically killed the game.
You're referring to the time the Empire had no tank class and the Dwarves has no proper melee dps (I forget what Destruction was lacking...)
Yeah, those weren't awesome times at all. Though damn if I didn't fucking love my Ironbreaker and his multiple knockback and snare abilities. Knockback made PVP in certain battlegrounds FUN.
It was the chosen sucking ass compared to the ironbreaker and even then it wasent that bad. You dont need to have one side completely winning you could just give them the advantage rather then just making every single class exactly alike with just model differences.
I could actually see that working, to a degree. Although something more like...
HQ: Buffs/Support/Secondary Tank
Elites: Nukes/DoTs
Troops: Summons and Pets
Fast Attack: DPS
Heavy: Tank
I sorta see it breaking down like this:
HQ: Tank, slow building dps?, secondary buffer
Elites: specialized roles, please no hybrids: buffer, healer, dps
Troops: pet/summoner (sounds like an awesome way to make them work)
Fast Attack: melee/highly mobile dps
Heavy: ranged dps, maybe some sort of entrenchment mechanic. lock down in a spot, increase dps
They wouldn't have to actually hardcode party makeup to allow only specific combos, but it seems like it would be easy to balance pve content to support specific types of groupings.
They need to not have classes like in traditional, outdated and archaic MMO's.
If they want any sort of classes they should define them like they do in Battlefield games;
Support
Assault
Engineer
Secondary support/Anti Armor/apoth etc
Recon (even orks have kommandos)
And then give each a ton of different tools to work with.
If they have raids, it better be like playing Bad Company 2 but in co-op and in a 40K setting. Like "Protect the Land Raider as it spearheads a massive assault on a chaos fortress, and kill everyone inside with a nasty god of war boss encounter at the end" and less "stand around this mindless mob and use your abilities in a pattern until mob dies, now repeat this throughout the instance with little variation".
Basically I want it to be an Action RPG with a ton of neat character progression and a persistant world, and if they fall into old MMO trappings, I hope they at least add some twitch and flair to it
”From THQ private company conference of 20th january concerning E3 presentation plan:
Playable factions:
- Empire
- Eldar
- Orcs
- Chaos
Features:
- Focus both on Melee and Long range Combat
- covering system
- 29 Zones (21 claimable, 8 invadeable)
- Open-World
- PvP around resource gathering and taking strategic points
- center zone features a conquerable stronghold
- No playable Tanks or other Warmachines at release but implemented possibility for expansion
- Tyranids as full fighting PvE-Faction
Lore (being discussed concerning certain faction-plots at the moment but here are the things we determined with Games Workshop so far):
- Game takes place in the southern border-sectors of Segmentum Tempestus
- Factions fight over a destroyed imperial forge world called Tarelis and its hive-city Cerberus X (newly added to the lore!)
- The story of the game will NOT take place in a parallel universe! Just like the Planet Kronus (made by our colleagues at relic) Tarelis will be part of the lore!
- Tyranids will be main-antagonists
- Unfortunately Vigil-games was not allowed to use Relics Gorgutz ‘Ead ‘Unter as Ork Warlord as he will make a final appearance in the second DoW2 expansion
Costs:
- 49.99$
Monthly fee:
- being discussed but most likely around 13$
Rating:
- targeted Teen/PEGI 16
Fully revealed at E3 2010.”
- Unfortunately Vigil-games was not allowed to use Relics Gorgutz ‘Ead ‘Unter as Ork Warlord as he will make a final appearance in the second DoW2 expansion
When I read that I thought it meant the next expansion would have an Ork campaign but he's probably just the villain
Wasn't that just posted by some random guy on a random blog/site/forum with absolutely no evidence to back it up
he can't even call the Imperium by their right name8-)
also orks with a "k" damnit
I haven't a clue, I'm just relaying something I saw that might be of interest in the Dawn of War thread. Wouldn't be the first time we were all fed bullshit, and can't be any worse than Speculation out of Control 2.0 going on this thread
WFB lost a lot being shoved into a Teen rating. 40k wouldn't fare any better. But, whether or not that's all fake, a Teen rating is probably pretty likely.
Morskittar on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
Depends on the art style really. In America, you can get away with a T rating with blood involved, provide it's cartoony blood. If it's gritty and realistic, you'll get bumped to an M straight away.
They need to not have classes like in traditional, outdated and archaic MMO's.
If they want any sort of classes they should define them like they do in Battlefield games;
Support
Assault
Engineer
Secondary support/Anti Armor/apoth etc
Recon (even orks have kommandos)
And then give each a ton of different tools to work with.
If they have raids, it better be like playing Bad Company 2 but in co-op and in a 40K setting. Like "Protect the Land Raider as it spearheads a massive assault on a chaos fortress, and kill everyone inside with a nasty god of war boss encounter at the end" and less "stand around this mindless mob and use your abilities in a pattern until mob dies, now repeat this throughout the instance with little variation".
Basically I want it to be an Action RPG with a ton of neat character progression and a persistant world, and if they fall into old MMO trappings, I hope they at least add some twitch and flair to it
Well that's more or less what HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, and heavy pretty much are. My initial thought was those classes would play out the same regardless of faction and their powers would be name/graphic swaps. It ensures game balance while keeping the great 40k flavor
So for example, you login and make a new character. It asks you what faction you want to be: Order or Destruction (most likely)
You choose Order. It asks you what race, Eldar, or Imperium, or Space Marine. You choose the Imperium and then it asks you what class, HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, or Heavy. HQ, and Elite are unavailable for the Imperium. You pick Troop and become a Commissar.
My thought was, the Imperium Troop and the Chaos troop, and the Eldar troop should all play the same way. Just the same way as a Human Warrior, an Elf warrior or an Orc Warrior all play the same in traditional MMOs. Some races obviously won't have a selection of a certain class. But I think this allows them to focus on making those classes excellent and balanced against eachother. Whereas in WAR, they had to balance them against eachother, and then go and balance them again against the other faction, and at the same time try and make each of those classes play or feel unique. In the end it was a disaster with balance problems, and boring class mechanics on one class, and awesome ones on another (I don't know if they ironed out many of the problems from when I last played).
It might seem like an outdated mechanic, but in a game involving choice and character progression, I think it's a good thing, and has pretty much been a time honoured tradition in many of the best RPGs from pen and paper, to the MMO genre. I wouldn't mind seeing them go in another direction (like maybe the classes are simply: Eldar, Space Marine, Imperium, and then within there you can specialize into subclasses), but I'm just jaded from so many failed attempts at other games to do stuff like this.
Edit: The reason I was thinking about this in the first place was because there would so often be a time in MMOs where I pick the race over the class. Because I like the flavor or backstory of that race more. But then I get disappointed that I couldn't play that race in the same way that another race could because of race-specific classes. If the classes are universal (with some races being locked out of classes for flavor or other reasons), then you're not limited. I understand that might not be a concern for most people.
No your describing a WoW clone that will crash and burn--any set classes will fail.
Throw in a massive talent/skill tree ala diablo/DA so everyone starts off as the same then they can customize their class from there. This is going to be a pvp MMO regardless of what it turns out to be because IN THE FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR. You dont want everyone being the same predictable class you want to give the players a shitload of options so combat doesnt get stagnant. As much as i hate all of the console shooters they are a good example to follow because the alternative to horrible to imagine.
There shouldent even be quests--give logical objectives with instant rewards, oh look that factory is getting taken over by orks. Hey that same factory allows me to buy ammo/weapons for a good price! goddamnit orks your not taking it! Hey theres abunch of gaunts running around our rear lines slowing the flow of NPC troops to defend the factory you just defended from the orks. The armory attendant wont give you the badass armor cause the loss of 4 factorys cut the supply of new armor, maybe you should take those factorys and get the armor?
I also saw that list of supposed features but passed it off as BS because it had no source.
In Planetside, everyone in a faction starts with the same basic gear. As they gain experience, they do not gain extra HP and deal more damage or whatever (like in WoW), but they get "certificate" points instead. They can use these points to aquire gear loadouts (tank driver, pilot, power armor, sniper etc) and they can only use a limited amount of loadouts until they respec.
So as a soldier for example, they could spec as 'tank driver', 'transporter' and 'recon' and they had access to gear that related to those loadouts (a specific tank, a specific transport craft and stealth gear respectively). You basically went into a station and decided what you wanted to be for the day and what kind of gear you wanted and then headed out into battle.
With a system like this, you can stay competitive at level 1 against max level guys, but still have a very clear progression (while max level guys still own certain advantages) as you level up, since you will get access to more gear and more options with higher levels. You also never felt like you were grinding at all, just being rewarded with more toys as you progressed. It was kind of like how many modern shooters handle multiplayer upgrades.
I thought the system worked very well, and with some tweaks could fit perfectly for a 40K MMO.
(note, this planetside info is from early Planetside as I have not played it in years)
Oh man, if that news exerpt is correct then I SO knew it!
Imperium
Chaos
Orks
Eldar
Mother-f'ing same factions in every game!
Meh, I wouldn't mind seeing Tau and Sisters of Battle/witch hunters, but the others (Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids) kind of make sense to be left out until expansions at least.
Yeah, necrons aren't exactly the most varied or interesting race. Why spend the time and resources trying to make it a more interesting faction when you have infinitely better fleshed out factions to choose from.
No your describing a WoW clone that will crash and burn--any set classes will fail.
Throw in a massive talent/skill tree ala diablo/DA so everyone starts off as the same then they can customize their class from there. This is going to be a pvp MMO regardless of what it turns out to be because IN THE FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR. You dont want everyone being the same predictable class you want to give the players a shitload of options so combat doesnt get stagnant. As much as i hate all of the console shooters they are a good example to follow because the alternative to horrible to imagine.
There shouldent even be quests--give logical objectives with instant rewards, oh look that factory is getting taken over by orks. Hey that same factory allows me to buy ammo/weapons for a good price! goddamnit orks your not taking it! Hey theres abunch of gaunts running around our rear lines slowing the flow of NPC troops to defend the factory you just defended from the orks. The armory attendant wont give you the badass armor cause the loss of 4 factorys cut the supply of new armor, maybe you should take those factorys and get the armor?
I also saw that list of supposed features but passed it off as BS because it had no source.
The more options you give the player, the harder it is for the devs to balance. The harder it is to balance, the harder the game will fail. By giving players a unified class system, you know that the warriors on your side have the same potential powers as the warriors on their side (what they choose to take into battle varies on the player). Invariably, time and time again, we've seen games that avoid this approach fail because they can't balance out the abilities either side gets. One side becomes overpowered and steam rolls the other side. The otherside gets fed up and either jumps ship to the other side, or quits the game entirely. The overpowered side quits because there is no one to fight against.
In your future, there is only queue times and failure. But I guess that's grimdark?
In the MMO landscape people want progression, content, and pvp. In that order. While people want PvP, and people keep calling for a PvP based MMO, they're never any good, because not enough people want a PvP centric game. I think most people want some form of good PvP, but not at the expensive of quality content and progression.
It is a business to bring in and keep the most people. If you focus the game on PVP it has to be friggin awesome, otherwise people will get bored and quit. If you don't balance things perfectly, people will become pissed off and quit. There are only two ways to make sure things are perfectly balanced, give every team the same powers to pick from, or give the teams no powers to pick from. I know which of those two I'd prefer.
Oh man, if that news exerpt is correct then I SO knew it!
Imperium
Chaos
Orks
Eldar
Mother-f'ing same factions in every game!
I think it is kind of unavoidable if they want each 'side' to have the same number of representatives. It would be easy to fill out the 'goodguy' side of things with Tau, and other Imperial sub-factions. But the 'badguy' side would be harder.
Of course, it is possible that the factions are all independent, and everyone's free to be killed? I'm not sure what I'd think about that. On one hand, it makes sense within the game world. But on the other, I don't like the idea of spliting up the player base among too many factions. Two seems perfect to me.
So tell me, arght, just how much UO do you want in this game? 90 or 95%
Hey out of all the games i've followed i never played or liked UO haha the guys with boners for UO were just mostly on my side hahahaha. I admit it had a solid design behind it but the graphics and 2d feel always turned me off.
Knowing that your enemy is a copy of you with a little different texture is a major turn off--heaven forbid you actually have to think and adapt during combat! I mean isent it the entire purpose behind fighting another human in a game? to have them constantly changing tactics and going beyond what an AI would do? Its very simple to make chaos be overpowered but give the imperium the edge in numbers and production.
No your describing a WoW clone that will crash and burn--any set classes will fail.
Throw in a massive talent/skill tree ala diablo/DA so everyone starts off as the same then they can customize their class from there. This is going to be a pvp MMO regardless of what it turns out to be because IN THE FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR. You dont want everyone being the same predictable class you want to give the players a shitload of options so combat doesnt get stagnant. As much as i hate all of the console shooters they are a good example to follow because the alternative to horrible to imagine.
There shouldent even be quests--give logical objectives with instant rewards, oh look that factory is getting taken over by orks. Hey that same factory allows me to buy ammo/weapons for a good price! goddamnit orks your not taking it! Hey theres abunch of gaunts running around our rear lines slowing the flow of NPC troops to defend the factory you just defended from the orks. The armory attendant wont give you the badass armor cause the loss of 4 factorys cut the supply of new armor, maybe you should take those factorys and get the armor?
I also saw that list of supposed features but passed it off as BS because it had no source.
The more options you give the player, the harder it is for the devs to balance. The harder it is to balance, the harder the game will fail. By giving players a unified class system, you know that the warriors on your side have the same potential powers as the warriors on their side (what they choose to take into battle varies on the player). Invariably, time and time again, we've seen games that avoid this approach fail because they can't balance out the abilities either side gets. One side becomes overpowered and steam rolls the other side. The otherside gets fed up and either jumps ship to the other side, or quits the game entirely. The overpowered side quits because there is no one to fight against.
In your future, there is only queue times and failure. But I guess that's grimdark?
In the MMO landscape people want progression, content, and pvp. In that order. While people want PvP, and people keep calling for a PvP based MMO, they're never any good, because not enough people want a PvP centric game. I think most people want some form of good PvP, but not at the expensive of quality content and progression.
It is a business to bring in and keep the most people. If you focus the game on PVP it has to be friggin awesome, otherwise people will get bored and quit. If you don't balance things perfectly, people will become pissed off and quit. There are only two ways to make sure things are perfectly balanced, give every team the same powers to pick from, or give the teams no powers to pick from. I know which of those two I'd prefer.
I mean, I think it's already been said, but what you're talking about is WoW, no one is going to make any headway as a game if they just mimic what WoW has already done. And I'm not convinced that simply mirroring powers and abilities is going to provide the perfect balancing scenario either. That said the 2 faction thing has been done, are people as bored to death with it as I am?
Dark_Side on
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CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
I'm thinking we need a balance of what Arghy is saying and what Dissociater is saying. People don't want WoW clones, but they don't want PvP heavy open world nightmares ethier. What we really want is balance and predictability and fairness for all factions, races and classes, but with reasons as to why we should fight which would validate the balancing. Arghy wants us to defend a factory from ork players so we can get our loots? Ok. Winner gets loot, then has to defend that factory from others to earn more rewards and loot. I'm not saying that alone should be the focus of PvP, but making open world PvP where anything can happen within the confines of a balanced class system with WAR40K ranks would be good.
Doing what WoW did again and again will not work. We need to take the best aspects of games like WoW, EVE, UO and others and add a special feel to it, something unique. WAR40K is a popular and awesome universe to place an MMO in, and if they do it right, the PvP could eventually end up being something special. If we don't just queue for BGs and actually actively hunt other players, and have incentives to do so, it would be pretty sweet. This idea needs work, but we need a balance between what WoW did right and what other genres and MMOs have done right, and not just in PvP.
Also, I too am tired of just 2 factions fighting it out. I'd wanna see 3 or 4, but not much more then that. More then two, but nothing excessive, to keep things fresh and keep players competing.
Corehealer on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
I'd like to see an FPSMMO with FPS style "roles", instead of full on classes. Character advancement comes in the way of perks and equipment unlocks. Like an FPS, changing your role should be easy, and something you can do before every "mission" or "battle" or whatever. Maybe one mission you want to be a battlefield medic, so you take the medic role, equip your medic gear, the game swaps in your medic build (perks and such), and there you go, off to playing a race flavored medic role for your team.
Make melee viable by making them very fast, basically just like how melee is made viable in the tabletop game and the strategy games. Give them things like stuns and charges, so they can get in to battle, forcing the other team to counter with melee.
The roles I would have:
Tactical Infantry (standard soldier type...Space Marine, Dire Avenger, etc.)
Medic (name says it all...Apothecary, no idea on the other races)
Close Combat Support (melee...Assault Marine, Howling Banshee/Striking Scorpion, etc.)
Long Range Support (sniper/recon role...Scouts, Rangers, etc).
Commander* (special role)
The commander role should be special. It's like a fleet commander in EVE, or a raid leader with special powers in WoW. You're "company" or "group" or whatever, selects the commander, and they are allowed to take the role. It gives them company wide buffs, the ability to mark the map with attack/defend orders, and maybe the ability to call in artillery or supply drops or something.
The game I've just described, if executed well, with good character advancement and some carrot to keep my going (either better gear, unique character powers, or PvP meaning something which is generall some kind of empire building stuff), would have my monthly dollars for a long, long time.
So, being realistic for a moment, I'm pretty sure we can safely say this game won't veer too far off from previous MMO design. Again, look at darksiders. They took ~5 different games, added the best parts together, and polished it. They gave it the blizzard factor, essentially. That obviously won't work on an MMO perfectly, as you can't really use the blizzard factor when the most popular competitor is blizzard :P
Anyways though, the game will likely not stray far from traditional MMO design. Classwise, I'm guessing they will be similar, but varied in how WoW did it originally, with a few different classes that were unique. For example, lets take some standard MMO template classes.
Tank
Healer
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Buffs/etc
Summoners
And then assume that they will go Eldar + Imperium, and Chaos + Orks. Its really the most likely thing, imo. Furthermore, they're likely to push heroic classes, no playing as boyz and dire avengers, etc.
Honestly, the "imperium" will probably have the most class choices, as they are the stereotypical "olol humans can do anything". So say...
Essentially, both sides have access to all classes, but not every race. Further, I'd assume that they would give the classes in different races different abilities, although similar. Small things, like perhaps a ranger might have more burst DPS with certain abilities, while Havocs and Devastators might have sustained fire abilities that have higher total DPS.
Really though, I just see vigil games taking the best aspects of WoW, WAR, and picking and choosing from a couple other MMO's, combine the ideas and features, and then making it look pretty. Frankly, as long as its well done enough, I'm ok with that. I want a good game, not a bad one because "WE MUST NOT BE LIKE WOW AT ALL SO TRY TO BE UNIQUE EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK IN MANY CASES".
So, being realistic for a moment, I'm pretty sure we can safely say this game won't veer too far off from previous MMO design. Again, look at darksiders. They took ~5 different games, added the best parts together, and polished it. They gave it the blizzard factor, essentially. That obviously won't work on an MMO perfectly, as you can't really use the blizzard factor when the most popular competitor is blizzard :P
Anyways though, the game will likely not stray far from traditional MMO design. Classwise, I'm guessing they will be similar, but varied in how WoW did it originally, with a few different classes that were unique. For example, lets take some standard MMO template classes.
Tank
Healer
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Buffs/etc
Summoners
And then assume that they will go Eldar + Imperium, and Chaos + Orks. Its really the most likely thing, imo. Furthermore, they're likely to push heroic classes, no playing as boyz and dire avengers, etc.
Honestly, the "imperium" will probably have the most class choices, as they are the stereotypical "olol humans can do anything". So say...
Essentially, both sides have access to all classes, but not every race. Further, I'd assume that they would give the classes in different races different abilities, although similar. Small things, like perhaps a ranger might have more burst DPS with certain abilities, while Havocs and Devastators might have sustained fire abilities that have higher total DPS.
Really though, I just see vigil games taking the best aspects of WoW, WAR, and picking and choosing from a couple other MMO's, combine the ideas and features, and then making it look pretty. Frankly, as long as its well done enough, I'm ok with that. I want a good game, not a bad one because "WE MUST NOT BE LIKE WOW AT ALL SO TRY TO BE UNIQUE EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK IN MANY CASES".
Yeah, pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. As for PvP, and PvE content, that's secondary to what I was trying to get across. I'm not talking about gameplay, PVP, or PVE content, I was just trying to provide one possible (and in my opinion, good) option for how to make sure players have access to all the same types of characters on one side of the game as they do on the other. This allows the devs assurances about game balance from one faction to the other, and arguably allows them to spend less time balancing, and more time making the classes and abilities awesome and fun.
Ultimately I think that's what it comes down to in the success of an MMO at present, innovation. WAR tried to mimic and refine, and it failed spectacularly. If you want to be as successful as Blizzard, I don't think you have any choice but to innovate. Maybe I can convince them to come up with some sort of rts mmo....
I really dislike the old Tank/Healer/DPS formula. They are so firm in their roles and it's kind of just dull. Also taunting/aggro mechanics are silly and kind of make a joke of any AI the game might have.
I'd be very very disappointed if this game used the same formula.
I think a lot of people are trying to ultimately fool themselves into thinking this game will be closer to an FPS rather than an RPG. I mean, it'd be great and all, but I think it'll be WAR in space, ultimately.
I really dislike the old Tank/Healer/DPS formula. They are so firm in their roles and it's kind of just dull. Also taunting/aggro mechanics are silly and kind of make a joke of any AI the game might have.
I'd be very very disappointed if this game used the same formula.
I think a lot of people would. The concept of archetype classes has become extremely worn out.
"RPG" is not synonymous with awful EQ styled gameplay
That's true, but in my opinion, it'll be a WAR rip-off. Yes, no information and a little bit of negativity, but most MMOs that aren't WoW kind of fall off after release nowadays (I don't know about Aion, is that doing good?).
"RPG" is not synonymous with awful EQ styled gameplay
That's true, but in my opinion, it'll be a WAR rip-off. Yes, no information and a little bit of negativity, but most MMOs that aren't WoW kind of fall off after release nowadays (I don't know about Aion, is that doing good?).
I played Aion for 2 and a half months with my GF and we both agreed that the grind was vicious, like almost worse then pre BC WoW, and adding onto that the fact that Abyss PvP is basically just gank squads and endless linear wars over fortresses and there's not really any endgame PvE content, this game ain't worth the endless questing. It's pretty, the bot issues have been fixed mostly, and new content that looks cool is coming, but Aion is basically another flashy MMO that supernovas for a few months and then reality sets in and people leave.
WAR was the same and still is the same, a week ago I fired up a free trial account and it's still the same boring PvE and semi awesome PvP.
WoW is stale, and we all want something new, something EVE like perhaps but with less of a learning curve and more structure.
So, being realistic for a moment, I'm pretty sure we can safely say this game won't veer too far off from previous MMO design. Again, look at darksiders. They took ~5 different games, added the best parts together, and polished it. They gave it the blizzard factor, essentially. That obviously won't work on an MMO perfectly, as you can't really use the blizzard factor when the most popular competitor is blizzard :P
Anyways though, the game will likely not stray far from traditional MMO design. Classwise, I'm guessing they will be similar, but varied in how WoW did it originally, with a few different classes that were unique. For example, lets take some standard MMO template classes.
Tank
Healer
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Buffs/etc
Summoners
And then assume that they will go Eldar + Imperium, and Chaos + Orks. Its really the most likely thing, imo. Furthermore, they're likely to push heroic classes, no playing as boyz and dire avengers, etc.
Honestly, the "imperium" will probably have the most class choices, as they are the stereotypical "olol humans can do anything". So say...
Essentially, both sides have access to all classes, but not every race. Further, I'd assume that they would give the classes in different races different abilities, although similar. Small things, like perhaps a ranger might have more burst DPS with certain abilities, while Havocs and Devastators might have sustained fire abilities that have higher total DPS.
Really though, I just see vigil games taking the best aspects of WoW, WAR, and picking and choosing from a couple other MMO's, combine the ideas and features, and then making it look pretty. Frankly, as long as its well done enough, I'm ok with that. I want a good game, not a bad one because "WE MUST NOT BE LIKE WOW AT ALL SO TRY TO BE UNIQUE EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK IN MANY CASES".
See i think it would better off if some races dident have lots of classes--make orks have just boyz with a few weapon options. Your not supposed to have this huge team working together if your an ork your supposed to simply charge.
Planetside/tribes2 are the games that should be mimicked--its not like a SM is called an assault marine when he straps a jump pack on he could be a friggin tactical marine with a jump pack. There should be no classes instead there should be weapon/wargear options which decide what your role is except for the eldar.
The whole thing of balance is also stupid--an ork player should always kill a guard player 1-1 if he gets close enough unless the guard player is really kickass but an ork player has to survive the amount of fire the guard player will throw down range. If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine. This is why SM's as a playable faction will be retarded and eventually lead to the game tanking, you simply cant explain thousands of marines doing stupid things and standing around.
I would play as an IG without a doubt and i say i want to be slaughtered when i fight every other friggin race every time i try to do something other then weight of numbers/fire power.
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Next he's going to tell us that Eldar love being in the middle of a fight.
These are getting harder and harder to read.
Yeah, exactly. I'd rather win or lose based on the skill of my team, not the fact that my faction has the improperly balanced class, or an advantage on a certain map type. Ask anyone who played much WAR how much fun PVP imbalance was. It practically killed the game.
You're referring to the time the Empire had no tank class and the Dwarves has no proper melee dps (I forget what Destruction was lacking...)
Yeah, those weren't awesome times at all. Though damn if I didn't fucking love my Ironbreaker and his multiple knockback and snare abilities. Knockback made PVP in certain battlegrounds FUN.
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I sorta see it breaking down like this:
HQ: Tank, slow building dps?, secondary buffer
Elites: specialized roles, please no hybrids: buffer, healer, dps
Troops: pet/summoner (sounds like an awesome way to make them work)
Fast Attack: melee/highly mobile dps
Heavy: ranged dps, maybe some sort of entrenchment mechanic. lock down in a spot, increase dps
They wouldn't have to actually hardcode party makeup to allow only specific combos, but it seems like it would be easy to balance pve content to support specific types of groupings.
If they want any sort of classes they should define them like they do in Battlefield games;
Support
Assault
Engineer
Secondary support/Anti Armor/apoth etc
Recon (even orks have kommandos)
And then give each a ton of different tools to work with.
If they have raids, it better be like playing Bad Company 2 but in co-op and in a 40K setting. Like "Protect the Land Raider as it spearheads a massive assault on a chaos fortress, and kill everyone inside with a nasty god of war boss encounter at the end" and less "stand around this mindless mob and use your abilities in a pattern until mob dies, now repeat this throughout the instance with little variation".
Basically I want it to be an Action RPG with a ton of neat character progression and a persistant world, and if they fall into old MMO trappings, I hope they at least add some twitch and flair to it
he can't even call the Imperium by their right name8-)
also orks with a "k" damnit
I haven't a clue, I'm just relaying something I saw that might be of interest in the Dawn of War thread. Wouldn't be the first time we were all fed bullshit, and can't be any worse than Speculation out of Control 2.0 going on this thread
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Well that's more or less what HQ, Elites, Troops, Fast Attack, and heavy pretty much are. My initial thought was those classes would play out the same regardless of faction and their powers would be name/graphic swaps. It ensures game balance while keeping the great 40k flavor
So for example, you login and make a new character. It asks you what faction you want to be: Order or Destruction (most likely)
You choose Order. It asks you what race, Eldar, or Imperium, or Space Marine. You choose the Imperium and then it asks you what class, HQ, Elite, Troop, Fast Attack, or Heavy. HQ, and Elite are unavailable for the Imperium. You pick Troop and become a Commissar.
My thought was, the Imperium Troop and the Chaos troop, and the Eldar troop should all play the same way. Just the same way as a Human Warrior, an Elf warrior or an Orc Warrior all play the same in traditional MMOs. Some races obviously won't have a selection of a certain class. But I think this allows them to focus on making those classes excellent and balanced against eachother. Whereas in WAR, they had to balance them against eachother, and then go and balance them again against the other faction, and at the same time try and make each of those classes play or feel unique. In the end it was a disaster with balance problems, and boring class mechanics on one class, and awesome ones on another (I don't know if they ironed out many of the problems from when I last played).
It might seem like an outdated mechanic, but in a game involving choice and character progression, I think it's a good thing, and has pretty much been a time honoured tradition in many of the best RPGs from pen and paper, to the MMO genre. I wouldn't mind seeing them go in another direction (like maybe the classes are simply: Eldar, Space Marine, Imperium, and then within there you can specialize into subclasses), but I'm just jaded from so many failed attempts at other games to do stuff like this.
Edit: The reason I was thinking about this in the first place was because there would so often be a time in MMOs where I pick the race over the class. Because I like the flavor or backstory of that race more. But then I get disappointed that I couldn't play that race in the same way that another race could because of race-specific classes. If the classes are universal (with some races being locked out of classes for flavor or other reasons), then you're not limited. I understand that might not be a concern for most people.
Throw in a massive talent/skill tree ala diablo/DA so everyone starts off as the same then they can customize their class from there. This is going to be a pvp MMO regardless of what it turns out to be because IN THE FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WAR. You dont want everyone being the same predictable class you want to give the players a shitload of options so combat doesnt get stagnant. As much as i hate all of the console shooters they are a good example to follow because the alternative to horrible to imagine.
There shouldent even be quests--give logical objectives with instant rewards, oh look that factory is getting taken over by orks. Hey that same factory allows me to buy ammo/weapons for a good price! goddamnit orks your not taking it! Hey theres abunch of gaunts running around our rear lines slowing the flow of NPC troops to defend the factory you just defended from the orks. The armory attendant wont give you the badass armor cause the loss of 4 factorys cut the supply of new armor, maybe you should take those factorys and get the armor?
I also saw that list of supposed features but passed it off as BS because it had no source.
So as a soldier for example, they could spec as 'tank driver', 'transporter' and 'recon' and they had access to gear that related to those loadouts (a specific tank, a specific transport craft and stealth gear respectively). You basically went into a station and decided what you wanted to be for the day and what kind of gear you wanted and then headed out into battle.
With a system like this, you can stay competitive at level 1 against max level guys, but still have a very clear progression (while max level guys still own certain advantages) as you level up, since you will get access to more gear and more options with higher levels. You also never felt like you were grinding at all, just being rewarded with more toys as you progressed. It was kind of like how many modern shooters handle multiplayer upgrades.
I thought the system worked very well, and with some tweaks could fit perfectly for a 40K MMO.
(note, this planetside info is from early Planetside as I have not played it in years)
Imperium
Chaos
Orks
Eldar
Mother-f'ing same factions in every game!
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Meh, I wouldn't mind seeing Tau and Sisters of Battle/witch hunters, but the others (Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids) kind of make sense to be left out until expansions at least.
The more options you give the player, the harder it is for the devs to balance. The harder it is to balance, the harder the game will fail. By giving players a unified class system, you know that the warriors on your side have the same potential powers as the warriors on their side (what they choose to take into battle varies on the player). Invariably, time and time again, we've seen games that avoid this approach fail because they can't balance out the abilities either side gets. One side becomes overpowered and steam rolls the other side. The otherside gets fed up and either jumps ship to the other side, or quits the game entirely. The overpowered side quits because there is no one to fight against.
In your future, there is only queue times and failure. But I guess that's grimdark?
In the MMO landscape people want progression, content, and pvp. In that order. While people want PvP, and people keep calling for a PvP based MMO, they're never any good, because not enough people want a PvP centric game. I think most people want some form of good PvP, but not at the expensive of quality content and progression.
It is a business to bring in and keep the most people. If you focus the game on PVP it has to be friggin awesome, otherwise people will get bored and quit. If you don't balance things perfectly, people will become pissed off and quit. There are only two ways to make sure things are perfectly balanced, give every team the same powers to pick from, or give the teams no powers to pick from. I know which of those two I'd prefer.
I think it is kind of unavoidable if they want each 'side' to have the same number of representatives. It would be easy to fill out the 'goodguy' side of things with Tau, and other Imperial sub-factions. But the 'badguy' side would be harder.
Of course, it is possible that the factions are all independent, and everyone's free to be killed? I'm not sure what I'd think about that. On one hand, it makes sense within the game world. But on the other, I don't like the idea of spliting up the player base among too many factions. Two seems perfect to me.
Hey out of all the games i've followed i never played or liked UO haha the guys with boners for UO were just mostly on my side hahahaha. I admit it had a solid design behind it but the graphics and 2d feel always turned me off.
Knowing that your enemy is a copy of you with a little different texture is a major turn off--heaven forbid you actually have to think and adapt during combat! I mean isent it the entire purpose behind fighting another human in a game? to have them constantly changing tactics and going beyond what an AI would do? Its very simple to make chaos be overpowered but give the imperium the edge in numbers and production.
I mean, I think it's already been said, but what you're talking about is WoW, no one is going to make any headway as a game if they just mimic what WoW has already done. And I'm not convinced that simply mirroring powers and abilities is going to provide the perfect balancing scenario either. That said the 2 faction thing has been done, are people as bored to death with it as I am?
Doing what WoW did again and again will not work. We need to take the best aspects of games like WoW, EVE, UO and others and add a special feel to it, something unique. WAR40K is a popular and awesome universe to place an MMO in, and if they do it right, the PvP could eventually end up being something special. If we don't just queue for BGs and actually actively hunt other players, and have incentives to do so, it would be pretty sweet. This idea needs work, but we need a balance between what WoW did right and what other genres and MMOs have done right, and not just in PvP.
Also, I too am tired of just 2 factions fighting it out. I'd wanna see 3 or 4, but not much more then that. More then two, but nothing excessive, to keep things fresh and keep players competing.
Make melee viable by making them very fast, basically just like how melee is made viable in the tabletop game and the strategy games. Give them things like stuns and charges, so they can get in to battle, forcing the other team to counter with melee.
The roles I would have:
Tactical Infantry (standard soldier type...Space Marine, Dire Avenger, etc.)
Medic (name says it all...Apothecary, no idea on the other races)
Close Combat Support (melee...Assault Marine, Howling Banshee/Striking Scorpion, etc.)
Long Range Support (sniper/recon role...Scouts, Rangers, etc).
Commander* (special role)
The commander role should be special. It's like a fleet commander in EVE, or a raid leader with special powers in WoW. You're "company" or "group" or whatever, selects the commander, and they are allowed to take the role. It gives them company wide buffs, the ability to mark the map with attack/defend orders, and maybe the ability to call in artillery or supply drops or something.
The game I've just described, if executed well, with good character advancement and some carrot to keep my going (either better gear, unique character powers, or PvP meaning something which is generall some kind of empire building stuff), would have my monthly dollars for a long, long time.
Anyways though, the game will likely not stray far from traditional MMO design. Classwise, I'm guessing they will be similar, but varied in how WoW did it originally, with a few different classes that were unique. For example, lets take some standard MMO template classes.
Tank
Healer
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Buffs/etc
Summoners
And then assume that they will go Eldar + Imperium, and Chaos + Orks. Its really the most likely thing, imo. Furthermore, they're likely to push heroic classes, no playing as boyz and dire avengers, etc.
Honestly, the "imperium" will probably have the most class choices, as they are the stereotypical "olol humans can do anything". So say...
Tank: Tactical Marine
Healer: Apothecary
Melee DPS: Assault Marine
Ranged DPS: Devastator Marine
Buffs/Etc: Guard commander(Orders as buffs, artillery calls, etc).
Summoner: Commissar with guardsmen
And then Eldar:
Tank/Melee DPS: Autarch
Ranged DPS: Ranger
Buffs/etc: Farseer
Summoner: Warlock w/ Guardians
Then they might do something like...
Chaos:
Tank: Chaos Space Marine
Melee DPS: Raptor
Ranged DPS: Havoc
Buffs/Support: Sorcerer
and Orks:
Tank: Nob
Healer: Painboy
Melee DPS: Kommando
Summoner: Runtherder w/ Gretchin
Essentially, both sides have access to all classes, but not every race. Further, I'd assume that they would give the classes in different races different abilities, although similar. Small things, like perhaps a ranger might have more burst DPS with certain abilities, while Havocs and Devastators might have sustained fire abilities that have higher total DPS.
Really though, I just see vigil games taking the best aspects of WoW, WAR, and picking and choosing from a couple other MMO's, combine the ideas and features, and then making it look pretty. Frankly, as long as its well done enough, I'm ok with that. I want a good game, not a bad one because "WE MUST NOT BE LIKE WOW AT ALL SO TRY TO BE UNIQUE EVEN IF IT DOESN'T WORK IN MANY CASES".
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Yeah, pretty much exactly what I was trying to say. As for PvP, and PvE content, that's secondary to what I was trying to get across. I'm not talking about gameplay, PVP, or PVE content, I was just trying to provide one possible (and in my opinion, good) option for how to make sure players have access to all the same types of characters on one side of the game as they do on the other. This allows the devs assurances about game balance from one faction to the other, and arguably allows them to spend less time balancing, and more time making the classes and abilities awesome and fun.
I'd be very very disappointed if this game used the same formula.
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"RPG" or "MMO" is not synonymous with awful decade old EQ styled gameplay
I think a lot of people would. The concept of archetype classes has become extremely worn out.
That's true, but in my opinion, it'll be a WAR rip-off. Yes, no information and a little bit of negativity, but most MMOs that aren't WoW kind of fall off after release nowadays (I don't know about Aion, is that doing good?).
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I played Aion for 2 and a half months with my GF and we both agreed that the grind was vicious, like almost worse then pre BC WoW, and adding onto that the fact that Abyss PvP is basically just gank squads and endless linear wars over fortresses and there's not really any endgame PvE content, this game ain't worth the endless questing. It's pretty, the bot issues have been fixed mostly, and new content that looks cool is coming, but Aion is basically another flashy MMO that supernovas for a few months and then reality sets in and people leave.
WAR was the same and still is the same, a week ago I fired up a free trial account and it's still the same boring PvE and semi awesome PvP.
WoW is stale, and we all want something new, something EVE like perhaps but with less of a learning curve and more structure.
See i think it would better off if some races dident have lots of classes--make orks have just boyz with a few weapon options. Your not supposed to have this huge team working together if your an ork your supposed to simply charge.
Planetside/tribes2 are the games that should be mimicked--its not like a SM is called an assault marine when he straps a jump pack on he could be a friggin tactical marine with a jump pack. There should be no classes instead there should be weapon/wargear options which decide what your role is except for the eldar.
The whole thing of balance is also stupid--an ork player should always kill a guard player 1-1 if he gets close enough unless the guard player is really kickass but an ork player has to survive the amount of fire the guard player will throw down range. If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine. This is why SM's as a playable faction will be retarded and eventually lead to the game tanking, you simply cant explain thousands of marines doing stupid things and standing around.
I would play as an IG without a doubt and i say i want to be slaughtered when i fight every other friggin race every time i try to do something other then weight of numbers/fire power.