So, being realistic for a moment, I'm pretty sure we can safely say this game won't veer too far off from previous MMO design. Again, look at darksiders. They took ~5 different games, added the best parts together, and polished it. They gave it the blizzard factor, essentially. That obviously won't work on an MMO perfectly, as you can't really use the blizzard factor when the most popular competitor is blizzard :P=
When I got the last addon from the one game, I honestly just said fuck this and stopped playing it. Too annoying.
TheCrumblyCracker on
0
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
I really hope they don't limit weapons to be like tabletop 40k. Like, you pick a tactical marine and you are stuck with a bolter, pick a farseer and you are stuck with a witchblade and shuriken pistol. Some of the cooler characters in fluff were commanders still using heavy bolters of farseers using shreiker cannons.
The whole thing of balance is also stupid--an ork player should always kill a guard player 1-1 if he gets close enough unless the guard player is really kickass but an ork player has to survive the amount of fire the guard player will throw down range. If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine. This is why SM's as a playable faction will be retarded and eventually lead to the game tanking, you simply cant explain thousands of marines doing stupid things and standing around.
Limiting who can play what class/race is pretty much a sure fire way to kill the game right off. I also think you're underestimating a player's desire to win. If an Ork kills a guardsman 1 on 1 every time, and your work around that is that there should be more guardsmen, guess what, that's going to fail. People don't want to have to rely on hoping more players are playing for their faction at that time in order to win. Most people will simply switch to Ork or avoid PVP. What you're talking about sounds nice in theory, but it will be a brutal, crash and burn failure in practice for an MMO.
You're still thinking about how you're going to try and bend a game around the 40k Mythos, when the 40k Mythos itself is made to bend. And thus, it should be bent in order to fit a good game, not the other way around. The 40k lore and 'canon' has been retconned so often because it is completely tertiary to the actual game of Warhammer 40k itself. Games Workshop knows this, and I'm hopeful that they apply that to the 40k MMO. Their goal isn't only to get 40k fans, they're going to try and make a game that can appeal to a large audience.
In the latest 'Warhammer 40.000: Dawn of War' game by Relic you get to go around and upgrade your marines and pick up new loot off fallen enemies. It makes no sense really but in a gaming perspective it fits and works very well.
Obviously this 40K MMO will have several such gaming conventions as well. Strict adhesion to lore is not the most important aspect of a game like this; Gameplay has to come first and foremost.
I could see it working a lot closer to, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Orks. And perhaps they might work in IG commisar, and Heretics for SM/CSM factions as summoner classes (summoning artillery/tanks or demons).
For SM you would be a standard marine and have the option to branch out into different paths: Standard, Assault, Devastator, Chaplain, Librarian, and Commander. Or, for CSM: Standard, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Commander (respectively).
For Eldar you have the Path of the Seer and Warrior (may have to limit the number of aspects to align with the other factions (or for simplicities sake)). And then, for Orks you have choices of Nobs and Odd Boyz'.
Hopefully, with this type of system, you wouldn't have a class choice at the beginning of the game only a race. Each of the specializations would be a skill tree. Respec would be possible to allow for groups to fill all the roles that they need.
From an SM perspective, Commander specced Marines may want to put points into Assault to get access to power weapons or jump packs, Dev to be a heavy weapon wielder or Standard to get access to a Flamer or Plasma weapon.
If we are stuck with the Unholy Trinity of mmo classes. I see Commander as being the tank/group coordination class. Ranged or otherwise, the Commander would get the Enemies and the Allies to focus where they choose. Chaplain as a healer, buffing Allies and increasing Commander zeal or will to fight. Marines would be DPS ranged or Melee. Libs would be Debuffer, and CC. Though I'd rather they not follow this path and instead opt for a system where you "tank" by grouping into formations.
In this system, Spec would only alter wargear access. Everything else would be equal. An Assault spec Marine would be better at Melee than a Devastator spec, but only by virtue of being armed with a chainsword instead of a missle launcher.
At different Tiers of gameplay your character would "level up" and gain some extra stat points and a new title. Sergeant becomes Captain and gets an extra 1 W (or 100hp), etc. Vanguard, Sternguard, Veterans, Epistolary, Reclusiarch, etc.
Any thoughts or ideas? I'm still waiting on my check from Vigil for Freelance Game Design. ...should be coming any day now...
The whole thing of balance is also stupid--an ork player should always kill a guard player 1-1 if he gets close enough unless the guard player is really kickass but an ork player has to survive the amount of fire the guard player will throw down range. If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine. This is why SM's as a playable faction will be retarded and eventually lead to the game tanking, you simply cant explain thousands of marines doing stupid things and standing around.
Limiting who can play what class/race is pretty much a sure fire way to kill the game right off. I also think you're underestimating a player's desire to win. If an Ork kills a guardsman 1 on 1 every time, and your work around that is that there should be more guardsmen, guess what, that's going to fail. People don't want to have to rely on hoping more players are playing for their faction at that time in order to win. Most people will simply switch to Ork or avoid PVP. What you're talking about sounds nice in theory, but it will be a brutal, crash and burn failure in practice for an MMO.
You're still thinking about how you're going to try and bend a game around the 40k Mythos, when the 40k Mythos itself is made to bend. And thus, it should be bent in order to fit a good game, not the other way around. The 40k lore and 'canon' has been retconned so often because it is completely tertiary to the actual game of Warhammer 40k itself. Games Workshop knows this, and I'm hopeful that they apply that to the 40k MMO. Their goal isn't only to get 40k fans, they're going to try and make a game that can appeal to a large audience.
Bah their better off catering to people who enjoy the lore then to flakes who wont play because they cant be bothered to read into the backround lore. You could make every IG player a summoner class also so at high levels every single player will have atleast 1 NPC pet so when theres a fight 3 human IG players could turn into a squad of 12 guardsmen.
The more we go through the loops the more my dream of a proper 40k MMO gets destroyed. I realize its pretty much impossible for them to pick IG over SM's since SM's could be slapped together using a WoW system. If they chose the route of least resistance and go WoW clone the game will be destroyed. I can already see choosing a class from char creation then leveling up and turning into veterans and such with the tactical marine class becoming a terminator at the highest level.
You burn in hell everquest THESE MONSTERS ARE YOUR DOING!
The whole thing of balance is also stupid--an ork player should always kill a guard player 1-1 if he gets close enough unless the guard player is really kickass but an ork player has to survive the amount of fire the guard player will throw down range.
Well, you seem to be arguing in favor of balance there- the Ork might be better at hand-to-hand, while the IG might be better at long-range damage. That's fine. But you can't have a game where one side will always beat the other 1-1, regardless of what the fluff might say on the matter. If the only way for the IG players to beat Ork players is by outnumbering them 2-1, no one will play IG.
If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine.
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
This is why SM's as a playable faction will be retarded and eventually lead to the game tanking, you simply cant explain thousands of marines doing stupid things and standing around.
I doubt people care enough about the fluff to let this bother them. I'm a fan of W40K fluff, but I can't see playing this MMO if I can't have a SM as one of my alts. I imagine at least half the playerbase feels the same.
I would play as an IG without a doubt and i say i want to be slaughtered when i fight every other friggin race every time i try to do something other then weight of numbers/fire power.
I think your view probably represents less than 1% of the potential playerbase.
Bah their better off catering to people who enjoy the lore then to flakes who wont play because they cant be bothered to read into the backround lore.
If they design this game to appeal to Warhammer 40K purists only, it will crash and burn. For MMO's, the casual gamer is a much more attractive player-base than purists and the self-styled hardcorz.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine.
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
EVE seems to be one of the few exceptions to the rule that you can't cater to a more hardcore crowd and still make money, you can even piss off practically your entire userbase over stupid company scandals and still keep your players too. How I'm not really sure, it's possible EVE is an aberration, but it does seem to show that an MMO designer can incorporate more interesting elements into an MMO and be successful.
Dark_Side on
0
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
The problem is the financial backing, and the whole no-risk thing, so the companies can get their money back as quickly as possible, make a profit, and do as little as possible.
But we don't really need to delve into debating MMOs, do we?
EVE seems to be one of the few exceptions to the rule that you can't cater to a more hardcore crowd and still make money, you can even piss off practically your entire userbase over stupid company scandals and still keep your players too. How I'm not really sure, it's possible EVE is an aberration, but it does seem to show that an MMO designer can incorporate more interesting elements into an MMO and be successful.
EVE seems to have a pretty different business model (as well as expectations) from other MMOs. For major U.S. publishers and developers, if your game doesn't have a significant share of WoW's population, you're a failure. Costs are high and there's an ever-increasing amount of competition.
EVE targeted a niche market with a game that has relatively low production cost, and CCP seems to be happy with it getting a modest return. There's probably no major studio in the U.S. that would be comfortable calling themselves 'creators-come-janitors.'
Also I get the sense that they kind of caught lightning in a bottle, in the sense that quite a few established internet communities jumped in early.
ed: given the IP I think it is flagrantly unrealistic to expect that a 40k mmo will follow this example
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
isn't EVE the most successful western MMO today, apart from WoW?
It also took CCP (creators of EVE) from being a company of like 20 guys into a company with 400 or so employees and two major gaming titles coming in the future
EVE hit a market that wasn't well represented and put together a pretty good game. No modern game gives the same experience as EVE and I don't think anyone could really try to clone it at this point and succeed.
If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine.
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
Star wars galaxies did it.
I'm not sure we should use SWG as an example of a succesful MMO (granted, its failure was probably due to more fundamental issues)
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine.
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
Star wars galaxies did it.
I'm not sure we should use SWG as an example of a succesful MMO (granted, its failure was probably due to more fundamental issues)
Thats the point though isn't it? Galaxies managed to attract a large playerbase despite an early launch and with the iconic class actively hostile to the player playing it. Originally Jedi were always flagged for PvP from all players and had permadeath, although you never lost the force sensitive slot so it you always had access to the class once unlocked.
The game didn't fail on account of that, it had a great class system that was interesting in its own way.
Demiurge on
0
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
EVE hit a market that wasn't well represented and put together a pretty good game. No modern game gives the same experience as EVE and I don't think anyone could really try to clone it at this point and succeed.
Hell, it took CCP a long time to get where they are now. I certainly didn't get in to EVE when it first came out and I can't imagine how boring it must have been in the beginning. What with everything depending a lot on the players and all.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
If they add IG AND SM's the SM/CSM player should be able to wipe the floor with the IG player but there should be a limit placed on the CSM/SM players to represent that theres a hundred thousand guardsmen to every one marine.
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
Star wars galaxies did it.
I'm not sure we should use SWG as an example of a succesful MMO (granted, its failure was probably due to more fundamental issues)
Thats the point though isn't it? Galaxies managed to attract a large playerbase despite an early launch and with the iconic class actively hostile to the player playing it. Originally Jedi were always flagged for PvP from all players and had permadeath, although you never lost the force sensitive slot so it you always had access to the class once unlocked.
The game didn't fail on account of that, it had a great class system that was interesting in its own way.
That's almost damning with faint praise though. The fan base and mindshare of Star Wars is an order of Magnitude higher than 40k's. The fact that the game didn't dominate despite that popularity and despite not having to compete with World of Warcraft at launch seems reason enough to me to learn from those mistakes, rather than repeat them, in my opinion.
BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
Even from a "Canon" perspective (note the quotations), Space Marines were genetically designed to face the horrors of the Galaxy. The Emperor knew the odds humanity was going to be up against.
And the Imperium of Mankind has stuck to the same tactics for the majority of its explorations into space.
You send the Marines in to handle anything Xeno/Warp-Tainted/Etc and speartip the planetary leadership while the Imperial Guardsmen are essentially there to mop up the leftovers and, using their vast numbers, temporarily occupy territories while order and law is established.
While it's not impossible, I find it highly unlikely they will be adding Imperial Guardsmen to a 40k MMO, at least as a playable class.
Why the hell would someone want to be a nobody who dies over & over again in PvP while the real fighters are standing toe to toe with the worst the galaxy has to offer?
Even from a RP standpoint, Guardsmen aren't known for their courage and dedication, Commissar's have the authority to execute any solider for disobedience or cowardice.
Commissar is the term used to designate a political officer in the regiments of the Imperial Guard. Commissars are tasked with the duty to maintain the morale of the troops during their massive campaigns, often in the face of staggering casualties. The Commissar is empowered to use any means necessary to ensure the loyalty and moral purity of his or her charges, and is regarded with a mixture of fear and admiration by regular Guardsmen. ~WH40k Wikia~
It's not really fair to expect an average soldier to face Eldar, Orks, Tyranids or Necrons in battle, at least not without a few hundred SM's leading the way.
And as for the idea of everyone having "pet" guardsmen under their control....if you wanna play Eudemons, knock yourself out.
Why the hell would someone want to be a nobody who dies over & over again in PvP while the real fighters are standing toe to toe with the worst the galaxy has to offer?
If IG are in the game, that's not how they're going to be designed. They'll be members of the elite Shock Troops and will fill a niche on the battlefield (such as being snipers or having the ability to call in artillery fire) that won't be available to SM players. As mentioned in the thread, 40K canon is incredibly flexible. If market surveys show the potential player base wants playable IG, there will be playable IG.
Even from a RP standpoint, Guardsmen aren't known for their courage and dedication
Cadians, Catachan jungle fighters, Krieg Death Troopers, Armageddon Legion, Mordian Iron Guard, just to name a few. I doubt the IG in game are going to be a random regiment from the backwater of the Imperum.
It's not really fair to expect an average soldier to face Eldar, Orks, Tyranids or Necrons in battle, at least not without a few hundred SM's leading the way.
Player characters are never "average soldiers." They're always pretty much the elite of their respective faction.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
0
BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
I was pretty much referring to the average Guardsmen, of which their are billions.
But we're talking about an MMO, not a TT game.
And when compared to an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine, a really badass IG is still just a human, albeit very well trained & equipped.
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2010
To clarify, I would have absolutely no problem with IG characters in the game being squad leaders. Pretty much anything a guardsman does other than hold a lasgun takes multiple guardsmen.
As for Orks, I would have every Ork be solo like the space marines, but with runts along. To vary the flavor, for the IG you could give specific orders like take cover here, converge fire, advance to way-point, whatever, but for the Orks you had the less controlled version of pets where they tag along but you can only give rudimentary orders, and they would be more prone to morale break.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I was pretty much referring to the average Guardsmen, of which their are billions.
But we're talking about an MMO, not a TT game.
And when compared to an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine, a really badass IG is still just a human, albeit very well trained & equipped.
Just my opinion, is all.
Fluff wise, yes, but gameplay concessions.
In the TT, I can run around with sly marbo, have him throw a demo charge on a bunch of terminators, kill most of them. They charge him, and with his high initiative and poisoned blade, has a chance of finishing them off. Its not that far off the resevoir.
I realize this is the TT, but if gameplay concessions can be made there, where I can kill a god damn squad of terminators with one badass guardsmen, I think they could work it so that the highest end of guard could compete with the lower end marines in an MMO.
I was pretty much referring to the average Guardsmen, of which their are billions.
But we're talking about an MMO, not a TT game.
And when compared to an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine, a really badass IG is still just a human, albeit very well trained & equipped.
Just my opinion, is all.
Fluff wise, yes, but gameplay concessions.
In the TT, I can run around with sly marbo, have him throw a demo charge on a bunch of terminators, kill most of them. They charge him, and with his high initiative and poisoned blade, has a chance of finishing them off. Its not that far off the resevoir.
I realize this is the TT, but if gameplay concessions can be made there, where I can kill a god damn squad of terminators with one badass guardsmen, I think they could work it so that the highest end of guard could compete with the lower end marines in an MMO.
That's pretty hilarious.
It's only fair to mention I never played the TT game, I'm just a fan of the Fluff/Novels/PC games.
Clearly there's a lot of love for IG from TT players, but from an MMO perspective it seems a little limp.
Play a Hulking Brute of an Ork, a fast, vicious Eldar, a walking tank Space Marine, a corrupt, rotting Chaos Marine or.......random, nameless guy in uniform billions of other dudes are wearing.
I totally get this image of an Ork knocking some IG into a tree 30 feet away, folding him around the trunk, broken and twisted.
Maybe they'll make it more appealing, maybe you'll be able to play a Commissar with a ton of pets (a la City of Villains style) where you get a Ogryn, a heavy weapons team and a few GI's or something, making all those Pet-Class-Fans happy, I never meant to imply I was opposed to the concept.
I just fail to see the appeal of playing a single guardsman, and I certainly can't picture a WH40k MMO without SM as a playable class.
I was pretty much referring to the average Guardsmen, of which their are billions.
But we're talking about an MMO, not a TT game.
And when compared to an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine, a really badass IG is still just a human, albeit very well trained & equipped.
Just my opinion, is all.
Fluff wise, yes, but gameplay concessions.
In the TT, I can run around with sly marbo, have him throw a demo charge on a bunch of terminators, kill most of them. They charge him, and with his high initiative and poisoned blade, has a chance of finishing them off. Its not that far off the resevoir.
I realize this is the TT, but if gameplay concessions can be made there, where I can kill a god damn squad of terminators with one badass guardsmen, I think they could work it so that the highest end of guard could compete with the lower end marines in an MMO.
That's pretty hilarious.
It's only fair to mention I never played the TT game, I'm just a fan of the Fluff/Novels/PC games.
Clearly there's a lot of love for IG from TT players, but from an MMO perspective it seems a little limp.
Play a Hulking Brute of an Ork, a fast, vicious Eldar, a walking tank Space Marine, a corrupt, rotting Chaos Marine or.......random, nameless guy in uniform billions of other dudes are wearing.
I totally get this image of an Ork knocking some IG into a tree 30 feet away, folding him around the trunk, broken and twisted.
Maybe they'll make it more appealing, maybe you'll be able to play a Commissar with a ton of pets (a la City of Villains style) where you get a Ogryn, a heavy weapons team and a few GI's or something, making all those Pet-Class-Fans happy, I never meant to imply I was opposed to the concept.
I just fail to see the appeal of playing a single guardsman, and I certainly can't picture a WH40k MMO without SM as a playable class.
Well, there's plenty of ways to make IG playable alongside other races, obviously you aren't going to have a regular guardsmen toe to toe with a nob, aspect warrior, or marine.
Just a few things that wouldn't be far off the reservation to be competitive:
Commissar with Veterans as pets
Ogryn Bone 'ead
Stormtroopers/Kasrkin
Officer with abilities like calling artillery and airstrikes(sci-fi mage :P)
Commando's like Sly marbo, etc
Tech-Priest
Ministronum priest
Primaris Psyker
Sentinel :P
Is it a stretch for these to be able to relatively compete with others? Sure, slightly. Thats why you assume these are the best in their fields, which still goes to show how badass marines are, etc. It takes the best of the best to even compete with an average marine.
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2010
Single guardsman would never work well. There would never be enough of them to properly represent the unrelenting meat grinder that is the Imperial war machine.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
See if theres 1 guardsmen against a hulking ork hes lost the battle already it will be the hulking ork, the vicious eldar, the walking tank SM and the rotting CSM against 40 guardsmen in chimera's with las cannons/heavy bolters blasting away.
The reason why IG are so awesome is the fact that their ordinary humans who have no choice but to win or be slaughtered so when they win its that much fucking better. Besides their the only ones who get baneblades and MOTHERFUCKING BANEBLADE.
Single guardsman would never work well. There would never be enough of them to properly represent the unrelenting meat grinder that is the Imperial war machine.
Eh, if they followed that route it wouldn't be hard to use officers or other highly skilled IG units as characters, but you probably wouldn't start as a lowly guardsman unless that was part of your leveling metric. I mean, they don't call lasguns "flashlights" for nothing.
Dark_Side on
0
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2010
OK, here is what I envision. To use concepts we are all familiar with, and for the sake of argument I will suppose that we have a level range from 1 to 50.
As a guardsmen, from levels 1 through 10 you have your singular character, and are able to spec as squad leader. You get two guardsmen pets that tag along. If these pets die, you would need to do some paltry repeatable whatever to replace them. By default they, along with your own character are equipped with lasguns. At the time you requisition them, you have the option of selecting a special weapon for one of them.
At level 11, you can unlock vehicle driver. Now you can pilot simple craft like sentinels or Chimera, and your requisitioned guardsmen can assist on the gun mounts or whatever. You also get two more guardsmen at this level, and thus have yourself and 4 guardsmen should you choose to remain on foot; or perhaps a squadron of Sentinals. During requisition, you now can select to equip a special weapon on one of your guardsmen, OR a heavy weapon carried by two of them.
At level 21, you get two more guardsmen and unlock Command track. Your squad is starting to look like a proper unit, but you can trade the basic troopers in at the place of requisition for an HQ unit selection or three; such as a Commissar or Psycher. At this point you can make raid groups with IG characters who are in squad mode. If you switch over to vehicle track at the place of requisition, you start getting into the more meaty IG vehicles such as the Leman Russ variants or whatever.
At level 31 you add the Special unit track to your repertoire. Now you can trade your guardsmen in for snipers or Ogryns or one of the other more unusual unit types. Back on Command track you are company grade, and can link up lower tier characters who are spec'ed HQ (who further link up squad spec'ed characters. Should you switch over to vehicle track you get some of the more terrible tanks, such as the smaller super-heavies.
Level 41 and up you get the rest of your guardsmen on squad track, bringing you up to full sized squad with both special and heavy weapons at your command. Should you spec HQ you are Battalion level, with all the awesome HQ toys at your disposal. Vehicle spec gives you access to every IG machine on the field and so on.
As you go up in level not only do you unlock the different tracks, which you should be able to change in and out of at any IG base, but your 'unit' gets more powerful along with you as you level up.
Any dissent on this view?
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
0
BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
It has merits & flaws.
Merits:
You get the scope of the IG, the relentless meatrinder that it is, disposable troops.
If balanced correctly it would put a player on par with the more "super" soldiers in the galaxy.
Downsides:
Lag.
I say this because I remember Masterminds from City of Villains.
Put just 2 in a group and you've got 8+ annoying pets running amok, causing lag, getting in the way, blocking vision, crowding corridors and causing major lag, even for high end systems on fast internet connections.
Also, if I was playing an Ork and I saw an IG running up with his 30 pets, I'd take my Boyz, burn YOU down and watch all your "pets" poof =P
Merits:
You get the scope of the IG, the relentless meatrinder that it is, disposable troops.
If balanced correctly it would put a player on par with the more "super" soldiers in the galaxy.
Downsides:
Lag.
I say this because I remember Masterminds from City of Villains.
Put just 2 in a group and you've got 8+ annoying pets running amok, causing lag, getting in the way, blocking vision, crowding corridors and causing major lag, even for high end systems on fast internet connections.
Also, if I was playing an Ork and I saw an IG running up with his 30 pets, I'd take my Boyz, burn YOU down and watch all your "pets" poof =P
MM Lag got much better later on IIRC. It still slowed down in some of the more enemy-intense maps (the ancient pseudo-rome TF? Yeah, fuck that with a MM heavy team), but for the most part it was better. Keep in mind that is also an engine that is nearly 10 years old. Provided a more efficient engine, I could see it working.
As for killing the commander? I think it'd be hilarious if the rest of the squad stayed around after I got killed, just to cause a little bit of hesitance when pursuing the assassination run. Give any survivors a debuff or something, but just having them lay down and die when the commander gets offed doesn't sound fun.
You would not be playing "random guardsman" headed for the meatgrinder. You'd be acting as a hero, special in every way and far more capable than the average grunt. Just like in every other RPG. They could easily make Guardsmen work.
Hell, in WAR they had Goblins going toe to toe with Archmages, and no one seemed to care.
Also, Guardsmen are awesome. They are basically the marines from DOOM
yeah, if the imperial guard starter world was catachan or something you could play up the guardsmen as being the most hardened of infantry, give them access to a bunch of specialized/ranged/heavy weapons that space marines don't have, etc.
Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
0
BloodshedI smoke my friendsDown to the FilterRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
If they make 'em utter badasses it'll be :^: all around., and to be fair, it'd be nice if someone wasn't playing a SM/CSM.
Cadian are for sissies, Death Korp is where it's at. I mean, these former traitors were nuked to hell and back by God's cleansing fire. And even after centuries of nuclear winter, they still live and die in the Emperor's name...mostly by murdering his enemies in the most brutalist way possible.
OK, here is what I envision. To use concepts we are all familiar with, and for the sake of argument I will suppose that we have a level range from 1 to 50.
As a guardsmen, from levels 1 through 10 you have your singular character, and are able to spec as squad leader. You get two guardsmen pets that tag along. If these pets die, you would need to do some paltry repeatable whatever to replace them. By default they, along with your own character are equipped with lasguns. At the time you requisition them, you have the option of selecting a special weapon for one of them.
At level 11, you can unlock vehicle driver. Now you can pilot simple craft like sentinels or Chimera, and your requisitioned guardsmen can assist on the gun mounts or whatever. You also get two more guardsmen at this level, and thus have yourself and 4 guardsmen should you choose to remain on foot; or perhaps a squadron of Sentinals. During requisition, you now can select to equip a special weapon on one of your guardsmen, OR a heavy weapon carried by two of them.
At level 21, you get two more guardsmen and unlock Command track. Your squad is starting to look like a proper unit, but you can trade the basic troopers in at the place of requisition for an HQ unit selection or three; such as a Commissar or Psycher. At this point you can make raid groups with IG characters who are in squad mode. If you switch over to vehicle track at the place of requisition, you start getting into the more meaty IG vehicles such as the Leman Russ variants or whatever.
At level 31 you add the Special unit track to your repertoire. Now you can trade your guardsmen in for snipers or Ogryns or one of the other more unusual unit types. Back on Command track you are company grade, and can link up lower tier characters who are spec'ed HQ (who further link up squad spec'ed characters. Should you switch over to vehicle track you get some of the more terrible tanks, such as the smaller super-heavies.
Level 41 and up you get the rest of your guardsmen on squad track, bringing you up to full sized squad with both special and heavy weapons at your command. Should you spec HQ you are Battalion level, with all the awesome HQ toys at your disposal. Vehicle spec gives you access to every IG machine on the field and so on.
As you go up in level not only do you unlock the different tracks, which you should be able to change in and out of at any IG base, but your 'unit' gets more powerful along with you as you level up.
Any dissent on this view?
See this is a great system except for the vehicle system because its going to be hard to code that dealing with all the pathing issues. I could see vehicles on certain maps and battle fields which were designed for them but honestly 4-6 properly equipped guardsmen are just as deadly as a leman russ.
Cadians are great for showing people that IG arent this WW1 era infantry in the 41st millennium--death corps of krieg are hard core mother fuckers who purposely chose the worst battle fields to atone for their failure in thwarting the rebel uprising on their home world.
I just had an awesome idea for an IG based mod to Red Orchestra...but I guess an MMO that fails spectacularly at recreating ground warfare is okay too....
Y'know, there are a thousand things I think that this game should/shouldn't do, but by far the most important is that it has to have more than two factions. When you only have two factions, the odds that one faction will have greater numbers than their opponents is almost 100%. WoW had this problem, WAR had this problem, and it absolutely ruins PVP, unless you plan on doing nothing but scenarios/battlegrounds the whole time (yuck). With even three factions, the odds that one faction would have more members than all of their opponents would be smaller -- still there (I'm looking at you, Space Marines), but less probable.
Posts
Just wait until we get Space Marines teabagging other space marines and typing the most inane shit over the chat channels
's gonna happen
Limiting who can play what class/race is pretty much a sure fire way to kill the game right off. I also think you're underestimating a player's desire to win. If an Ork kills a guardsman 1 on 1 every time, and your work around that is that there should be more guardsmen, guess what, that's going to fail. People don't want to have to rely on hoping more players are playing for their faction at that time in order to win. Most people will simply switch to Ork or avoid PVP. What you're talking about sounds nice in theory, but it will be a brutal, crash and burn failure in practice for an MMO.
You're still thinking about how you're going to try and bend a game around the 40k Mythos, when the 40k Mythos itself is made to bend. And thus, it should be bent in order to fit a good game, not the other way around. The 40k lore and 'canon' has been retconned so often because it is completely tertiary to the actual game of Warhammer 40k itself. Games Workshop knows this, and I'm hopeful that they apply that to the 40k MMO. Their goal isn't only to get 40k fans, they're going to try and make a game that can appeal to a large audience.
Obviously this 40K MMO will have several such gaming conventions as well. Strict adhesion to lore is not the most important aspect of a game like this; Gameplay has to come first and foremost.
*Boom* *Rattatatatat* *Eat bolter Xeno scum*
*Victory for the GameplayGod*
Imperium
Eldar
Chaos
Orks
I could see it working a lot closer to, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar and Orks. And perhaps they might work in IG commisar, and Heretics for SM/CSM factions as summoner classes (summoning artillery/tanks or demons).
For SM you would be a standard marine and have the option to branch out into different paths: Standard, Assault, Devastator, Chaplain, Librarian, and Commander. Or, for CSM: Standard, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Commander (respectively).
For Eldar you have the Path of the Seer and Warrior (may have to limit the number of aspects to align with the other factions (or for simplicities sake)). And then, for Orks you have choices of Nobs and Odd Boyz'.
Hopefully, with this type of system, you wouldn't have a class choice at the beginning of the game only a race. Each of the specializations would be a skill tree. Respec would be possible to allow for groups to fill all the roles that they need.
From an SM perspective, Commander specced Marines may want to put points into Assault to get access to power weapons or jump packs, Dev to be a heavy weapon wielder or Standard to get access to a Flamer or Plasma weapon.
If we are stuck with the Unholy Trinity of mmo classes. I see Commander as being the tank/group coordination class. Ranged or otherwise, the Commander would get the Enemies and the Allies to focus where they choose. Chaplain as a healer, buffing Allies and increasing Commander zeal or will to fight. Marines would be DPS ranged or Melee. Libs would be Debuffer, and CC. Though I'd rather they not follow this path and instead opt for a system where you "tank" by grouping into formations.
In this system, Spec would only alter wargear access. Everything else would be equal. An Assault spec Marine would be better at Melee than a Devastator spec, but only by virtue of being armed with a chainsword instead of a missle launcher.
At different Tiers of gameplay your character would "level up" and gain some extra stat points and a new title. Sergeant becomes Captain and gets an extra 1 W (or 100hp), etc. Vanguard, Sternguard, Veterans, Epistolary, Reclusiarch, etc.
Any thoughts or ideas? I'm still waiting on my check from Vigil for Freelance Game Design. ...should be coming any day now...
Bah their better off catering to people who enjoy the lore then to flakes who wont play because they cant be bothered to read into the backround lore. You could make every IG player a summoner class also so at high levels every single player will have atleast 1 NPC pet so when theres a fight 3 human IG players could turn into a squad of 12 guardsmen.
The more we go through the loops the more my dream of a proper 40k MMO gets destroyed. I realize its pretty much impossible for them to pick IG over SM's since SM's could be slapped together using a WoW system. If they chose the route of least resistance and go WoW clone the game will be destroyed. I can already see choosing a class from char creation then leveling up and turning into veterans and such with the tactical marine class becoming a terminator at the highest level.
You burn in hell everquest THESE MONSTERS ARE YOUR DOING!
What you propose will never happen. No game designer in their right mind would set up a situation where players are limited in what race/class they are allowed to play, nor will they intentionally give one race/class an advantage 1-1. MMO's aren't in the business of driving away potential players (except EVE, maybe).
I doubt people care enough about the fluff to let this bother them. I'm a fan of W40K fluff, but I can't see playing this MMO if I can't have a SM as one of my alts. I imagine at least half the playerbase feels the same.
I think your view probably represents less than 1% of the potential playerbase.
If they design this game to appeal to Warhammer 40K purists only, it will crash and burn. For MMO's, the casual gamer is a much more attractive player-base than purists and the self-styled hardcorz.
Rigorous Scholarship
Star wars galaxies did it.
But we don't really need to delve into debating MMOs, do we?
EVE seems to have a pretty different business model (as well as expectations) from other MMOs. For major U.S. publishers and developers, if your game doesn't have a significant share of WoW's population, you're a failure. Costs are high and there's an ever-increasing amount of competition.
EVE targeted a niche market with a game that has relatively low production cost, and CCP seems to be happy with it getting a modest return. There's probably no major studio in the U.S. that would be comfortable calling themselves 'creators-come-janitors.'
Also I get the sense that they kind of caught lightning in a bottle, in the sense that quite a few established internet communities jumped in early.
ed: given the IP I think it is flagrantly unrealistic to expect that a 40k mmo will follow this example
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
It also took CCP (creators of EVE) from being a company of like 20 guys into a company with 400 or so employees and two major gaming titles coming in the future
Those guys struck digital gold
Rigorous Scholarship
Thats the point though isn't it? Galaxies managed to attract a large playerbase despite an early launch and with the iconic class actively hostile to the player playing it. Originally Jedi were always flagged for PvP from all players and had permadeath, although you never lost the force sensitive slot so it you always had access to the class once unlocked.
The game didn't fail on account of that, it had a great class system that was interesting in its own way.
Hell, it took CCP a long time to get where they are now. I certainly didn't get in to EVE when it first came out and I can't imagine how boring it must have been in the beginning. What with everything depending a lot on the players and all.
That's almost damning with faint praise though. The fan base and mindshare of Star Wars is an order of Magnitude higher than 40k's. The fact that the game didn't dominate despite that popularity and despite not having to compete with World of Warcraft at launch seems reason enough to me to learn from those mistakes, rather than repeat them, in my opinion.
And the Imperium of Mankind has stuck to the same tactics for the majority of its explorations into space.
You send the Marines in to handle anything Xeno/Warp-Tainted/Etc and speartip the planetary leadership while the Imperial Guardsmen are essentially there to mop up the leftovers and, using their vast numbers, temporarily occupy territories while order and law is established.
While it's not impossible, I find it highly unlikely they will be adding Imperial Guardsmen to a 40k MMO, at least as a playable class.
Why the hell would someone want to be a nobody who dies over & over again in PvP while the real fighters are standing toe to toe with the worst the galaxy has to offer?
Even from a RP standpoint, Guardsmen aren't known for their courage and dedication, Commissar's have the authority to execute any solider for disobedience or cowardice.
It's not really fair to expect an average soldier to face Eldar, Orks, Tyranids or Necrons in battle, at least not without a few hundred SM's leading the way.
And as for the idea of everyone having "pet" guardsmen under their control....if you wanna play Eudemons, knock yourself out.
Battletag: Kain#1658
Cadians, Catachan jungle fighters, Krieg Death Troopers, Armageddon Legion, Mordian Iron Guard, just to name a few. I doubt the IG in game are going to be a random regiment from the backwater of the Imperum.
Player characters are never "average soldiers." They're always pretty much the elite of their respective faction.
Rigorous Scholarship
But we're talking about an MMO, not a TT game.
And when compared to an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Space Marine or Chaos Space Marine, a really badass IG is still just a human, albeit very well trained & equipped.
Just my opinion, is all.
Battletag: Kain#1658
As for Orks, I would have every Ork be solo like the space marines, but with runts along. To vary the flavor, for the IG you could give specific orders like take cover here, converge fire, advance to way-point, whatever, but for the Orks you had the less controlled version of pets where they tag along but you can only give rudimentary orders, and they would be more prone to morale break.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Fluff wise, yes, but gameplay concessions.
In the TT, I can run around with sly marbo, have him throw a demo charge on a bunch of terminators, kill most of them. They charge him, and with his high initiative and poisoned blade, has a chance of finishing them off. Its not that far off the resevoir.
I realize this is the TT, but if gameplay concessions can be made there, where I can kill a god damn squad of terminators with one badass guardsmen, I think they could work it so that the highest end of guard could compete with the lower end marines in an MMO.
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
That's pretty hilarious.
It's only fair to mention I never played the TT game, I'm just a fan of the Fluff/Novels/PC games.
Clearly there's a lot of love for IG from TT players, but from an MMO perspective it seems a little limp.
Play a Hulking Brute of an Ork, a fast, vicious Eldar, a walking tank Space Marine, a corrupt, rotting Chaos Marine or.......random, nameless guy in uniform billions of other dudes are wearing.
Remember Tim Roth in The Incredible Hulk?
I totally get this image of an Ork knocking some IG into a tree 30 feet away, folding him around the trunk, broken and twisted.
Maybe they'll make it more appealing, maybe you'll be able to play a Commissar with a ton of pets (a la City of Villains style) where you get a Ogryn, a heavy weapons team and a few GI's or something, making all those Pet-Class-Fans happy, I never meant to imply I was opposed to the concept.
I just fail to see the appeal of playing a single guardsman, and I certainly can't picture a WH40k MMO without SM as a playable class.
Battletag: Kain#1658
Well, there's plenty of ways to make IG playable alongside other races, obviously you aren't going to have a regular guardsmen toe to toe with a nob, aspect warrior, or marine.
Just a few things that wouldn't be far off the reservation to be competitive:
Commissar with Veterans as pets
Ogryn Bone 'ead
Stormtroopers/Kasrkin
Officer with abilities like calling artillery and airstrikes(sci-fi mage :P)
Commando's like Sly marbo, etc
Tech-Priest
Ministronum priest
Primaris Psyker
Sentinel :P
Is it a stretch for these to be able to relatively compete with others? Sure, slightly. Thats why you assume these are the best in their fields, which still goes to show how badass marines are, etc. It takes the best of the best to even compete with an average marine.
3ds friend code: 2981-6032-4118
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
The reason why IG are so awesome is the fact that their ordinary humans who have no choice but to win or be slaughtered so when they win its that much fucking better. Besides their the only ones who get baneblades and MOTHERFUCKING BANEBLADE.
Eh, if they followed that route it wouldn't be hard to use officers or other highly skilled IG units as characters, but you probably wouldn't start as a lowly guardsman unless that was part of your leveling metric. I mean, they don't call lasguns "flashlights" for nothing.
As a guardsmen, from levels 1 through 10 you have your singular character, and are able to spec as squad leader. You get two guardsmen pets that tag along. If these pets die, you would need to do some paltry repeatable whatever to replace them. By default they, along with your own character are equipped with lasguns. At the time you requisition them, you have the option of selecting a special weapon for one of them.
At level 11, you can unlock vehicle driver. Now you can pilot simple craft like sentinels or Chimera, and your requisitioned guardsmen can assist on the gun mounts or whatever. You also get two more guardsmen at this level, and thus have yourself and 4 guardsmen should you choose to remain on foot; or perhaps a squadron of Sentinals. During requisition, you now can select to equip a special weapon on one of your guardsmen, OR a heavy weapon carried by two of them.
At level 21, you get two more guardsmen and unlock Command track. Your squad is starting to look like a proper unit, but you can trade the basic troopers in at the place of requisition for an HQ unit selection or three; such as a Commissar or Psycher. At this point you can make raid groups with IG characters who are in squad mode. If you switch over to vehicle track at the place of requisition, you start getting into the more meaty IG vehicles such as the Leman Russ variants or whatever.
At level 31 you add the Special unit track to your repertoire. Now you can trade your guardsmen in for snipers or Ogryns or one of the other more unusual unit types. Back on Command track you are company grade, and can link up lower tier characters who are spec'ed HQ (who further link up squad spec'ed characters. Should you switch over to vehicle track you get some of the more terrible tanks, such as the smaller super-heavies.
Level 41 and up you get the rest of your guardsmen on squad track, bringing you up to full sized squad with both special and heavy weapons at your command. Should you spec HQ you are Battalion level, with all the awesome HQ toys at your disposal. Vehicle spec gives you access to every IG machine on the field and so on.
As you go up in level not only do you unlock the different tracks, which you should be able to change in and out of at any IG base, but your 'unit' gets more powerful along with you as you level up.
Any dissent on this view?
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Merits:
You get the scope of the IG, the relentless meatrinder that it is, disposable troops.
If balanced correctly it would put a player on par with the more "super" soldiers in the galaxy.
Downsides:
Lag.
I say this because I remember Masterminds from City of Villains.
Put just 2 in a group and you've got 8+ annoying pets running amok, causing lag, getting in the way, blocking vision, crowding corridors and causing major lag, even for high end systems on fast internet connections.
Also, if I was playing an Ork and I saw an IG running up with his 30 pets, I'd take my Boyz, burn YOU down and watch all your "pets" poof =P
Battletag: Kain#1658
Steam Name: Dr.Oblivious
If you can't live for the now, at least live for the future.
MM Lag got much better later on IIRC. It still slowed down in some of the more enemy-intense maps (the ancient pseudo-rome TF? Yeah, fuck that with a MM heavy team), but for the most part it was better. Keep in mind that is also an engine that is nearly 10 years old. Provided a more efficient engine, I could see it working.
As for killing the commander? I think it'd be hilarious if the rest of the squad stayed around after I got killed, just to cause a little bit of hesitance when pursuing the assassination run. Give any survivors a debuff or something, but just having them lay down and die when the commander gets offed doesn't sound fun.
Hell, in WAR they had Goblins going toe to toe with Archmages, and no one seemed to care.
Also, Guardsmen are awesome. They are basically the marines from DOOM
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
Battletag: Kain#1658
Steam Name: Dr.Oblivious
If you can't live for the now, at least live for the future.
See this is a great system except for the vehicle system because its going to be hard to code that dealing with all the pathing issues. I could see vehicles on certain maps and battle fields which were designed for them but honestly 4-6 properly equipped guardsmen are just as deadly as a leman russ.
Cadians are great for showing people that IG arent this WW1 era infantry in the 41st millennium--death corps of krieg are hard core mother fuckers who purposely chose the worst battle fields to atone for their failure in thwarting the rebel uprising on their home world.