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TV Media and Gaming or: How G4 is a Monumental Failure

13

Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Adus wrote: »
    Playing a game doesn't always give you insight into the development process and such, and I wouldn't mind some shows that are of the documentary sort. Icons was always a pretty cool show, I felt. I wasn't terribly into Cinematech that just showed clips of games being played. I also liked Portal, as dorky as it was. You'd never see a show like that anywhere else, and now you won't even see it on G4.

    I remember the review show Tommy and Vic did. Judgment Day, I believe. I rather enjoyed it since when they reviewed games it genuinely felt like their opinions. The issue was that they seemed to always review games that were already pretty old, kind of defeating the point of even having a review show to begin with.

    The real problem was that Tommy had the taste of a retarded six year old.

    enlightenedbum on
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    My wife and I met Tommy Tallarico last year at Video Games Live. Meeting him there, I honestly couldn't figure out why people didn't like him. He seemed a decent guy, and was (or at least acted) interested in our input as we talked.

    As for G4, really, I think people in here are missing the point. There are a ton of people who enjoy G4, and it's those folks that the programming is designed for. As much as I'd like to see better, "core gamer" appropriate material on there, the fact is there are not enough of us watching TV to make it worthwhile. This is why the old shows we liked went away (TechTV stuff). If the market's not big enough, it can't be supported financially.

    Shadowfire on
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  • EmperorSethEmperorSeth Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Back when G4 was still G4, I enjoyed watching Icons and Cinematech mainly. Portal struck me as silly, honestly, and a MMO-based game that predates WoW would just look weird. As mentioned above, Judgment Day has the problem that Tommy is a crazy manchild, but reviews by TV just strikes me as dated at this point. You could do it online or get 30 reviews in the time it takes to watch one episode and hope it reviews that one game you're curious about. Cheat is even worse. Why watch a show give one hint about a game when you could just hop over to gamefaqs, or even better, the Wiki for that specific game? Now, I like the idea of interviews and previews, and if done right, a competitive gaming show could be very interesting, at least as much as baseball. I wouldn't mind a show that focuses more on the concept of gaming as well. You know, experts, thinkers, and celebrated artists give their two cents on gaming as an art, how to improve the medium, the theme of certain games, that sort of thing.

    EmperorSeth on
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  • SirUltimosSirUltimos Don't talk, Rusty. Just paint. Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    SirUltimos wrote: »
    A few years back, I saw Tommy and...the other guy (Vince?) at a Gen Con. They were in the main pavilion doing a news piece. The one thing I recalled thinking is "that dude is tiny."

    Yeah, he is way smaller than he looks on TV.

    I was also once man handled by Tommy Tallarico's bodyguard.

    Did you deserve it?

    I say manhandled because I think it's cool to say that, but I was really just pushed aside. I was at Videogames Live in Kitchener and after the show my friends and I were standing in the lobby deciding if we wanted an autograph or not (we didn't). I guess I was standing in the way of his path to the table, because his bodyguard came up to me, said "Move aside, sir" then picked me up and moved me to the side.

    SirUltimos on
  • Penguin_OtakuPenguin_Otaku Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    People defending AotS and Judgment Day and fucking die. Seriously? Both are awful and while Judgment Day have been "genuine" in a sense that they were giving honest opinions it wasn't good.

    "Back when G4 was G4," no. G4 is what is now. THAT is G4. You're talking about when "TechTV was transitioning into G4"

    Penguin_Otaku on
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  • chasmchasm Ill-tempered Texan Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    AotS is Tosh.0 without any humor whatsoever.

    chasm on
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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    So would this be a bad place to say that I rather like GT-TV..?

    Shadowfire on
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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think a Siskel+Ebert type of show could succeed, as least as well as it does for movie reviews. Hearing someone legitimately knowledgeable talk about what's going on in a piece of media is rare enough that it's still enjoyable, and few enough places do it with video games even given the number of sites devoted to talking about them.

    I kind of doubt competitive gaming will ever be a big deal outside of the community that already plays that game. Major sports have decades of history and cultural relevance to use to draw an audience, and they're still too inscrutable for a large portion of the population to pay attention to (aside from super bowl sunday.) It's hard for me to see a TV-supporting audience developing around a game that probably only has four or five years of competitive life at most.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    My wife and I met Tommy Tallarico last year at Video Games Live. Meeting him there, I honestly couldn't figure out why people didn't like him. He seemed a decent guy, and was (or at least acted) interested in our input as we talked.

    As for G4, really, I think people in here are missing the point. There are a ton of people who enjoy G4, and it's those folks that the programming is designed for. As much as I'd like to see better, "core gamer" appropriate material on there, the fact is there are not enough of us watching TV to make it worthwhile. This is why the old shows we liked went away (TechTV stuff). If the market's not big enough, it can't be supported financially.

    He gave homeworld a 2 out of 10 because he doesn't like strategy games, for that Tommy Tallarico deserves at least fifteen lashes. You can dislike a type of game while still recognizing the quality - movie reviews do this all the time. The reviewer might not be able to stand zombie movies but recognizes that 28 days later kicks ass.

    override367 on
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    What about G4 canada?

    Xplay and AOTS and its spinoffs are still there, but most of the Spike-style programming seems to have been replaced with the Adult Swim programming, The Office, about three different shows with Victor Lucas, and for some reason stuff from the Outdoor Life Network.

    Leo Laporte also seems to still have a show there, and Tommy Tallarico hasn't shown his face in years.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    What about G4 canada?

    Xplay and AOTS and its spinoffs are still there, but most of the Spike-style programming seems to have been replaced with the Adult Swim programming, The Office, about three different shows with Victor Lucas, and for some reason stuff from the Outdoor Life Network.

    Leo Laporte also seems to still have a show there, and Tommy Tallarico hasn't shown his face in years.

    Thank god for Canadian content regulations?

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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    I think a Siskel+Ebert type of show could succeed, as least as well as it does for movie reviews. Hearing someone legitimately knowledgeable talk about what's going on in a piece of media is rare enough that it's still enjoyable, and few enough places do it with video games even given the number of sites devoted to talking about them.

    I still prefer the Extended Play method of "Funny shit combined with legitimate criticism." The only problem was that they'd often take it to some insane extreme that would just derail the entire review.

    And yeah, you can always get a fast review online. But you can't beat a well-written critique that's legitimately funny, and delivered by a pair of co-hosts with some chemistry... As opposed to the Pereira/Munn method of "Our acting is so bad we give people cancer, and our camaraderie is as fake as Kristin Holt's taco."
    I kind of doubt competitive gaming will ever be a big deal outside of the community that already plays that game. Major sports have decades of history and cultural relevance to use to draw an audience, and they're still too inscrutable for a large portion of the population to pay attention to (aside from super bowl sunday.) It's hard for me to see a TV-supporting audience developing around a game that probably only has four or five years of competitive life at most.

    Yeah, it is kind of a niche community, but it still has potential. It just needs to grow a bit, and you need to get people to realize just how difficult pro gaming is, and how insanely skilled the players are.

    Romanian My Escutcheon on
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  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Isidore wrote: »
    Am I allowed to want a deeper analysis of games beyond "controls, graphics, gameplay" yet? Or do I have to wait until we finally get a "citizen kane of games" like people keep promising. Newsnight Review still seems stuck in the "video nasty" phase of game analysis.

    I'm curious about what else you're looking for in a review. I mean, there are certainly games that could be examined on a deeper, thematic level, but there's not a lot of additional analysis to be had in a lot of games. Madden and Rock Band, for example, just don't lend themselves to analysis beyond the traditional criteria. Just so you don't misread me, I'm genuinely curious about what else you'd like to see addressed, as I'm in the process of launching my own, sure-to-fail review site.

    Regarding G4, its just a mess, and isn't really a network aimed at gamers. Aside from X-Play, there's no game-related content.

    I think someone else's idea of having Discovery launch a spiritual successor to TechTV is a brilliant idea. I mean, just off the top of my head, they could have shows addressing:

    Games (X-Play competition)
    Cell phones - tips, tricks, apps
    Netbooks
    Hardware reviews
    Software reviews
    Help for beginners
    Open source corner - *nix stuff
    Coding tips and tricks
    Live coverage of various conventions, from E3 to MIX
    DIY
    Security - internet and home
    Misc - Mythbusters, Prototype This, etc.

    Nightslyr on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    There are plenty of games out there with interesting enough production or writing to justify that kind of in-depth review. Sure, you're not going to do one for madden necessarily, but Roger and Ebert didn't do a segment on 'Ninja Assassin' either (at least, I don't think they did.)
    AoR_Final wrote: »
    I kind of doubt competitive gaming will ever be a big deal outside of the community that already plays that game. Major sports have decades of history and cultural relevance to use to draw an audience, and they're still too inscrutable for a large portion of the population to pay attention to (aside from super bowl sunday.) It's hard for me to see a TV-supporting audience developing around a game that probably only has four or five years of competitive life at most.

    Yeah, it is kind of a niche community, but it still has potential. It just needs to grow a bit, and you need to get people to realize just how difficult pro gaming is, and how insanely skilled the players are.

    I'm not sure what potential it has. I mean, with actual pro sports, there's not only a ton of history but a ton of social significance; people played football/baseball/basketball themselves, or their kids did, or their university/city/whatever has a team, and so on. Video games don't have any of that.

    Moreover, video games are really specialized even within the population of people who play video games. Most 'gamers' probably aren't that interested in watching starcraft or WoW arena 3v3, even though there are obviously dedicated followers of both games. For the most part, games aren't around long enough to attract the kind of dedicated following that would support a long-term competitive program.

    Televising video games is a challenge for a bunch of other reasons, too, not the least of which is finding competent people to call the competition. Finding someone with both the chops to do television announcing and deep knowledge of every game you want to cover isn't going to be all that easy. Production is still a mess too, or it least it was last time I tried to watch competitive gaming.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    whoever said that TV game reviews have pretty much been a barren field lately is right

    ever since consolevania and videogaiden dried up there really hasn't been much there worth noting

    Rust on
  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Also, competitive gaming is usually damn boring to watch. Specially fighting games.

    Kyougu on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I really like Adam Sessler

    I feel he has opinions on games, the industry, and game design that would be really interesting

    I think he could sustain an hour long talk show about video games with other people actively involved in the industry and make it entertaining and informative

    Unfortunately this would probably cut into the two hours a day of Cheaters that G4 shows so that probably won't happen, but it's a good idea

    I sort of liked when G4 was basically about games and the people who are into them. During commercial breaks sometimes they'd actually show speedruns of certain game segments narrated by the people who played them and it's like "holy shit that is esoteric as fuck this is a network about video gamers" and then they'd get back to their episode of Icons talking about Shigeru Miyamoto and it was actually pretty interesting

    But no, now it's all Attack of the Show, which is stupid and dumb, and Cheaters and COPS for no goddamn reason

    Basically what I'd want out of a video game television show at this point is either informed, entertaining commentary on the industry or actual informative stuff about game design or production or history, and G4 provides none of these things

    Podcasts do, though. Sessler's Soapbox in particular is great, but I'd like to hear him talk with other people for an extended length of time. Get him in on the Giant Bombcast sometime, see how that goes
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    And then Sessler berated the network for it

    I remember a youtube video of that where he was spitting poison at someone off-camera in a loud whisper. "This is unprofessional!"
    Sessler: "You guys enjoying this?"
    TRAILER
    Sessler: (whispering angrily) "What? No. It's still showing!"
    Unidentified male: "I know."
    Sessler: "It's still being shown. This is unprofessional! It's still show -"
    COMMERCIAL

    Man I wish I could find a youtube clip of this. I guess they all got taken down by G4

    Olivaw on
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  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2010
    Charlie Brooker made a show about vidjagames. Gameswipe. It was great.

    EDIT: I had a link to the first part on Youtube here but hey I guess someone already linked to it on the previous page. Serves me right for only reading the first two pages and this one. And yeah, Aleks Krotoski just got finished presenting some really interesting documentaries about t'internet.

    Bogart on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I like Charlie Brooker a lot

    I don't always agree with him but he is hysterical even when I don't

    Also I would like Videogaiden if it was hosted by people who could speak English

    Olivaw on
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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I remember back when Extended Play was just Adam by himself at the Winchester Mystery House doing game reviews with little anchor segments and interviews sometimes.

    Then I'd watch Screen Savers for a few hours and think about buying a Utility Kilt.

    MagicPrime on
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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Preacher wrote: »
    I met Sessler last year at PAX it was a brief "Hey you're adam sessler" but he was a pretty chill dude, compared to morgan who I didn't see prior to her doing an interview and then she dissappeared again.

    I have heard that she is infamous for not really interacting with the fans and only making an appearance for when she's on Camera.

    With all the creepy neckbeards at cons, I really can't blame her. Although I liked her better when she was just the chick manning the e-mail chatroom station on The Screen Savers.

    MagicPrime on
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  • RustRust __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Olivaw wrote: »
    I like Charlie Brooker a lot

    I don't always agree with him but he is hysterical even when I don't

    Also I would like Videogaiden if it was hosted by people who could speak English

    they do

    broadly speaking

    Rust on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Morgan Webb seems like she knows what she is talking about more than any other woman on that network

    She also wasn't nearly as annoying as any other woman on that network, so she had that going for her
    Rust wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    I like Charlie Brooker a lot

    I don't always agree with him but he is hysterical even when I don't

    Also I would like Videogaiden if it was hosted by people who could speak English

    they do

    broadly speaking

    It's like I can almost recognize the sounds they make as part of the english language

    but then they throw in some slang and I'm right back to understanding fuck all

    Olivaw on
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  • BiopticBioptic Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Bogart wrote: »
    Charlie Brooker made a show about vidjagames. Gameswipe. It was great.

    EDIT: I had a link to the first part on Youtube here but hey I guess someone already linked to it on the previous page. Serves me right for only reading the first two pages and this one. And yeah, Aleks Krotoski just got finished presenting some really interesting documentaries about t'internet.

    The thing that Gameswipe made me realise is that a great many stand-up comics - shock horror - play games. And that not only are many of them able to talk intelligently about them in front of a camera in a way that the average games journalist couldn't, they might actually be funny too! One of the more surreal tableaus I've come across recently was in 'The Bubble', where you had Ed Byrne blasting through Modern Warfare 2 in an isolated with Germaine Greer knitting quietly in the background and occasionally egging him on.

    The problems with games-focused TV have been repeated many times, though: 1) by presenting an interactive medium in a passive form you lose much of the charm, 2) without real-world celebrities and the like for people to lust after and obsess over, you're essentially dealing with either gameplay footage or spoken-word critiscism, and 3) games coverage on TV is much like print coverage on TV (or vice versa) - the formats compete directly with each other, meaning that it's in TV's interest to marginalise games into a niche.

    Much though I love Consolevania and VideoGaiden (and I concede that they avoid all of the above pitfalls), it's difficult to see the lessons that can be taken from them and applied to more mainstream-focused programming.

    Bioptic on
  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Seems these "remember when G4 was awesome" threads creeps up at least once a year.

    Yeah, that channel has creeped so far from what it was that the only thing I watch on it anymore is X-Play. And even then it's DVR'd and I skip anything I'm not interested in watching.

    Before the merge both G4 and TechTV were pretty awesome in their own way. I thought TechTV was in the stronger position of that merge. How sad I was to be wrong. It had the better content. Although I do miss every commercial on G4 being either for a game, movie, or Pringles. That was always amusing.

    So what original shows does G4 even have anymore? X-Play, Attack of the Show, and that web soup type thing. Is that it? I know they do specials occasionally that they'll air over and over. But like others have pointed out, whenever I pass that channel on the guide it's usually either COPS or Campus PD. I think I liked it better when I'd see the same episode of an original show 6 times a day versus all day marathons of crap that is on there now.

    The channel probably could have branched out to reach a larger audience without going to complete crap though. Maybe go a bit in the other direction and have shows about games, general tech stuff, maybe instead of all the reality type shows picked up some tech documentaries. Maybe get it a bit more hands-on science-y. Bring back call for help too. That show was just fun to watch. That's what was great about The Screen Savers too, just a group of people that knew their stuff talking about tech. It was interesting and many times I felt like I actually learned something, even if it was just "hey, check out this free application" some of which I still use to this day.

    Bolthorn on
  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    As I have said in these threads before.

    The best thing about the old channel was everyone was real, relateable and believable.

    When you look at Patrick Norton he looks like he just stepped out of the NOC of your college or company.

    MagicPrime on
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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    The screen savers and even call for help were pretty good

    The hosts were all so likable

    override367 on
  • HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I really liked the earlier days of Icons. X-Play was always at least tolerable to me. That all said, I haven't watched the network in 3-4 years.

    What I'd love to see is G4 attempt to take the reins on establishing competitive professional gaming in the US, particularly RTS gaming (esp. with Starcraft 2 around the corner). It would be cool to see a televised league with live games or compressed highlights for an hour. Sadly, the quality of such an endeavor would rest solely on the presence of good commentators, and I just know they'd either pick or forcibly manufacture really annoying idiots.

    I think RTSs work very well for professional gaming because they're considerably easier to broadcast than FPS matches, especially since they're individual vs individual (any broadcast where you have to constantly switch between several dozen players is simply not going to present a cohesive picture of a match up).

    Heartlash on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Didn't the SyFy channel briefly flirt with airing competitive gaming? I remember seeing commercials for it back when BSG was on the air. It looked like a clone of G4's Arena show.

    emnmnme on
  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Heartlash wrote: »
    I really liked the earlier days of Icons. X-Play was always at least tolerable to me. That all said, I haven't watched the network in 3-4 years.

    What I'd love to see is G4 attempt to take the reins on establishing competitive professional gaming in the US, particularly RTS gaming (esp. with Starcraft 2 around the corner). It would be cool to see a televised league with live games or compressed highlights for an hour. Sadly, the quality of such an endeavor would rest solely on the presence of good commentators, and I just know they'd either pick or forcibly manufacture really annoying idiots.

    I think RTSs work very well for professional gaming because they're considerably easier to broadcast than FPS matches, especially since they're individual vs individual (any broadcast where you have to constantly switch between several dozen players is simply not going to present a cohesive picture of a match up).

    I'd watch it just to watch somebody go batshit after getting Zerg Rushed in every match. :P

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  • Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Didn't the SyFy channel briefly flirt with airing competitive gaming? I remember seeing commercials for it back when BSG was on the air. It looked like a clone of G4's Arena show.

    No. Arena had people who had played a game once before in their life, wasn't pretentious, and didn't have half of the cast sleeping with each other per director's orders.

    Edith Upwards on
  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Well, who wants to see G4 throwing their weight around inappropriately?

    This was a free website started by a couple old-school members of the G4 message boards.

    It is currently shut down because Neal Tiles is a silly goose, and right now they're threatening to sue the webmaster because he had the balls to think his right as an American citizen meant more than G4's ego.

    Fuck. This. Bullshit.

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  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    AoR_Final wrote: »
    Well, who wants to see G4 throwing their weight around inappropriately?

    This was a free website started by a couple old-school members of the G4 message boards.

    It is currently shut down because Neal Tiles is a silly goose, and right now they're threatening to sue the webmaster because he had the balls to think his right as an American citizen meant more than G4's ego.

    Fuck. This. Bullshit.

    Dude.... what the fuck are you talking about? Are you trying to April fool us with someone elses April Fool's joke?

    MagicPrime on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Erich Zahn wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Didn't the SyFy channel briefly flirt with airing competitive gaming? I remember seeing commercials for it back when BSG was on the air. It looked like a clone of G4's Arena show.

    No. Arena had people who had played a game once before in their life, wasn't pretentious, and didn't have half of the cast sleeping with each other per director's orders.

    Wow, videogames + swapping partners sound like the hottest orgy idea ever. Is there a clip of the show anywhere? I don't know what it was called.

    emnmnme on
  • ShaggyShaggy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What was that show where they gave hints and or cheats about games? I would put it on if there was nothing else on and I was interested in whatever game they were talking about. I saw a show on G4 called Cheaters so I thought that may be it. Turns out it was about people cheating on each other, not video games. I think.

    Shaggy on
  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Shaggy wrote: »
    What was that show where they gave hints and or cheats about games? I would put it on if there was nothing else on and I was interested in whatever game they were talking about. I saw a show on G4 called Cheaters so I thought that may be it. Turns out it was about people cheating on each other, not video games. I think.

    Cheat was the show you were thinking of. It was originally on G4 with Kristen Holt (now Adams) hosting. Wasn't too bad. Was at least watchable.
    I made nearly the same mistake though and thought they renamed the show to Cheaters, then something clicked in my brain and I thought "no, they're not showing that piece of crap are they?" Unfortunately, they were.

    Bolthorn on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Arena was fun because Wil Wheaton was on it for a bit at the beginning and their commentary over the games was kinda funny

    They realized that they were playing video games and therefore didn't have to take shit super serious

    Then they lost those hosts and got new ones and lost them and got new ones and then lost one of those and got a new one and then it got canceled

    Early G4 had no clue what kind of network it was trying to be

    Olivaw on
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  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yeah, good thing they solved that problem. They're Spike TV Jr. now.

    Kyougu on
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I suspect I was the only person who liked Judgement Day on G4/whatever they called themselves then when it shared the channel with X-Play.

    Mostly because if I'm going to watch a show about a video game review (or, conversely, a peripheral review or something similar), I want a degree of complexity that a five-star grading system kind of lacks. Also, I don't want to watch 10 minutes of skits involving interns dressed as characters from the Zelda games.

    Two goofy dudes who don't agree on things chatting in a brightly lit environment will suffice.

    Synthesis on
  • OlivawOlivaw good name, isn't it? the foot of mt fujiRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Tommy Tallarico is intolerable though

    Olivaw on
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