Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Right-Wing Extremism

2456716

Posts

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The Catch-22 is that while the increase in dangerous fringe militias is on the rise and they need to be taken care of is that this (and any subsequent) raids and arrests on militia members are just going to drive the other militias around the country into a conspiracy-laden froth and put them all on edge.
    But you can't just let them go, either. I'd rather they were cracking down hard on these people before something actually happens than having one of these groups succeed in taking American lives and force a cascade of negative consequences.

    That's the Catch-22. You can't let them just go, but every time you deal with them, the remaining groups are going to perceive it as signs that the Administration is starting to do the things that everyone has lied they will do.

    The crazies are always going to believe they're right. The trick is getting more of the "on the fence" people to believe that the crazies are actually crazy.
    Yeah, I don't really view this as a catch-22. At the point where you're crazy enough to start killing cops to make a statement, your crazy is self-reinforcing. Better to save lives and educate the public than live in fear of copycat reprisal that was probably coming anyway.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Shazkar ShadowstormShazkar Shadowstorm Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Potok reports that angry anti-immigrant vigilante groups soared by nearly 80 percent last year. In 2009, militias and the larger Patriot movement grew with 363 new militias and related groups, an increase of 244 percent.
    eee

    Shazkar Shadowstorm on
    poo
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited March 2010

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.

    DarkPrimus on
    wpyz0Y5.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.
    Except, even if we give you the unsourced implication you're making here with McVeigh, we've still got a militia group stopped just short of committing terrorist acts.

    That's a pretty direct link, if you ask me.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    The indictment charged that between August 2008 and the present, the defendants — led by David Brian Stone, 45, who also used the name “Captain Hutaree” — developed a conspiracy that they hoped would result in a war against the United States government. They allegedly decided they would kill a local law enforcement officer, and then bomb the funeral caravan. The killings “would intimidate and demoralize law enforcement diminishing their ranks and rendering them ineffective,” it said.
    The "Tea Partiers are to blame" narrative kind of falls apart since it turns out these guys have been planning an insurrection since at least the Bush presidency.

    Potentially voiolent anti-government groups have been around in this country since the first clandestine Tory cabal plotted on how to bring the 13 Colonies back under British rule.

    Your explanation falls apart since it turns out these guys have been planning an insurrection since it was looking likely Obama was going to win the election.

    Henroid on
    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • KalTorakKalTorak Way up inside your butthole, Morty. WAAAAY up inside there.Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.

    I think he meant that the charge was that he was teaching about it, which might fall under free speech, I don't know. I doubt it.

    KalTorak on
  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.

    wrong amendment.

    tinwhiskers on
    How do you spell Justice?B D S Non-Violent Resistance to Israel Apartheid & Occupation.
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.
    He said 1st Amendment, not 2nd, good sir. Which would mean his point is regarding how it's illegal to educate someone in the preparation and use of explosives. My guess is that the sticking point here is that the educating that was being done was for purposes of attacking the government, which there are special clauses and such for. Possibly like "seditious speech" or something along those lines.

    iTunesIsEvil on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.

    I think he meant that the charge was that he was teaching about it, which might fall under free speech, I don't know. I doubt it.
    Free speech doesn't include speech that can be directly linked to acts that compromise other people's safety. Teaching someone to build a bomb is the equivalent of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, you just happen to not be in the theatre when you're doing the yelling. The instructions for the creation of weapons are restricted in the same ways weapons are.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • DmanDman Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I was showing my family an episode of TDS (march 18th i think, they don't normally watch it) and John was making fun of Glenn beck...they had to ask if Glenn Beck was a real person who actually had his own show and not just part of the comedy act.

    The right wing media and politics is a little out of control.

    I'd like to think after a couple years of actually having better health coverage people will realize they were rallying against their own good and the right will have to eat their stupid words.

    And yeah, those nut job anti-government folk can be left to rot in prison indefinitely as far as I'm concerned. They deserve the label terrorist.

    Dman on
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    There's a right to bear arms, as in, personal firearms. You don't have the right to make pipe bombs.

    I think he meant that the charge was that he was teaching about it, which might fall under free speech, I don't know. I doubt it.
    Free speech doesn't include speech that can be directly linked to acts that compromise other people's safety. Teaching someone to build a bomb is the equivalent of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theatre, you just happen to not be in the theatre when you're doing the yelling. The instructions for the creation of weapons are restricted in the same ways weapons are.

    Is the anarchist's cookbook actually illegal?

    I've always heard of it, but never got into the details.

    Jragghen on
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    As far as I'm concerned, the only people who should be learning explosives use and creation are 1) currently enlisted members of the military and 2) people working demolitions jobs, whether it be construction workers taking down old buildings or miners or other fields.

    Anyone else outside that, hell no.

    Henroid on
    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.
    Except, even if we give you the unsourced implication you're making here with McVeigh, we've still got a militia group stopped just short of committing terrorist acts.

    That's a pretty direct link, if you ask me.
    True. But we're talking about one militia out of how many? I'm just not terribly concerned about what are basically social groups of people who hang out in the woods and bitch about the government.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.

    Wouldn't the Unabomber be the epitome of lone wolf terrorist since McVeigh, you know, didn't act alone?

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Dman wrote: »
    I'd like to think after a couple years of actually having better health coverage people will realize they were rallying against their own good and the right will have to eat their stupid words.
    If the Right in this country were capable of that level of introspection, we wouldn't have to fight so hard to enact social programs.

    Hell, if they had the self-awareness necessary to think "you know, I'm collecting disability/unemployment, I'm only still putting food on the table because of socialism" there probably wouldn't be a Tea Party movement.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.
    Except, even if we give you the unsourced implication you're making here with McVeigh, we've still got a militia group stopped just short of committing terrorist acts.

    That's a pretty direct link, if you ask me.
    True. But we're talking about one militia out of how many? I'm just not terribly concerned about what are basically social groups of people who hang out in the woods and bitch about the government.
    Social groups that ballooned in size and number in a political climate where death threats to members of Congress are becoming commonplace.

    The correlation between angry armed people, political unrest and consequent organizing of those angry armed people is a little harder for me to brush aside than it apparently is for you.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Kagera wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East). On the other hand, how do you stop someone like McVeigh? Look how long it took to catch the Beltway Snipers.

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.

    Wouldn't the Unabomber be the epitome of lone wolf terrorist since McVeigh, you know, didn't act alone?
    "Lone wolf" in the sense that he wasn't relying on any organization for logistical support and the like. The small cell approach to terrorism/insurgency is a pretty well-established technique, since it makes it really tough for the authorities to roll the cell up as part of a larger sting.

    The bigger your organization, the easier it is for the authorities to get someone on the inside. That's how the Feds turned a lot of terrorist groups, like the old black and white racist groups.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I doubt it still exists on youtube now but Stein was filling in for Rush Limbaugh today and he mentioned an American posted a video of him threatening Eric Cantor's and his family's lives. The FBI is questioning him now.

    emnmnme on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I doubt it still exists on youtube now but Stein was filling in for Rush Limbaugh today and he mentioned an American posted a video of him threatening Eric Cantor's and his family's lives. The FBI is questioning him now.
    Same guy had a youtube talking about how he'd burn down CNN.

    Protip: If you're planning on actually doing something illegal, try not to give authorities huge amounts of data as to your plans and personal appearance.

    That guy was just completely insane. Not Teabagger insane, Manson insane.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think the problem with blaming the GOP for these groups is that many of these groups would be just as happy to take out the GOP.

    IS the GOP guilty of, at times, encouraging these groups, yes. That's not because they ACTUALLY want to incite violence, it is because they want those extremist votes.

    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?

    Evander on
  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.
    Except, even if we give you the unsourced implication you're making here with McVeigh, we've still got a militia group stopped just short of committing terrorist acts.

    That's a pretty direct link, if you ask me.
    True. But we're talking about one militia out of how many? I'm just not terribly concerned about what are basically social groups of people who hang out in the woods and bitch about the government.

    A lot of these groups are made up of violent lunatics that aren't all there in the head. There is a difference between people that go out in the woods with guns to hunt/camp, and people that run around in the woods thinking they are going to have a revolution.

    psychotix on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Henroid wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned, the only people who should be learning explosives use and creation are 1) currently enlisted members of the military and 2) people working demolitions jobs, whether it be construction workers taking down old buildings or miners or other fields.

    Anyone else outside that, hell no.

    Security through obscurity never works.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Kagera wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Yar wrote: »
    Anyone remember the Symbionese Liberation Army? The Peoples Temple?

    Whacko right-wing extremists haven't one-upped their left-wing counterparts of a few decades ago just yet. But certainly we need to keep our eyes peeled.

    Yeah, what have right-wing extremists ever done?
    408px-Oklahomacitybombing-DF-ST-98-01356.jpg
    Yeah, good point, but he was more of a lone anarchist thatn a right-wing extremist group, right? I mean, I classify him more as a really bad version of going postal.
    He was linked to the Michigan Militia, along with Jose Padilla.
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East). On the other hand, how do you stop someone like McVeigh? Look how long it took to catch the Beltway Snipers.

    The being said, McVeigh's actions can't really be linked to any group or movement. He was kind of the epitome of the lone wolf terrorist, sort of like the Beltway Snipers.

    Yeah, the militia movement is creepy, but they haven't really been linked to terrorism.

    Wouldn't the Unabomber be the epitome of lone wolf terrorist since McVeigh, you know, didn't act alone?
    "Lone wolf" in the sense that he wasn't relying on any organization for logistical support and the like. The small cell approach to terrorism/insurgency is a pretty well-established technique, since it makes it really tough for the authorities to roll the cell up as part of a larger sting.

    The bigger your organization, the easier it is for the authorities to get someone on the inside. That's how the Feds turned a lot of terrorist groups, like the old black and white racist groups.

    He got the explosives from another member of his organization. No logistical support there.


    Meanwhile, a guy who was arrested after his latest video was about a republican is being taken as proof of there being a left wing extremist network, even though his previous videos said the same thing of every high ranking Democrat.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    I remember reading some fairly convincing articles that McVeigh had connections with certain Islamic terrorist groups, or at the very least sympathized with some of their issues with American foreign policy (support for Israel, keeping troops in the Middle East).

    Lets keep in mind that, ironically, right-wing extremism in America is fueled by the same conspiracy theories many Islamic terrorists believe, such as the one that Jews are trying to create a secular New World Order, so drawing that kind of link between any militia group and Islamic terrorism is very easy. There is little difference in the mindset of fundamentalist Muslim and a fundamentalist Christian.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    I think the problem with blaming the GOP for these groups is that many of these groups would be just as happy to take out the GOP.

    IS the GOP guilty of, at times, encouraging these groups, yes. That's not because they ACTUALLY want to incite violence, it is because they want those extremist votes.

    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?

    So they're being criminally irresponsible. Huge improvement.


    Also, isn't it funny that no Dems were saying or doing this crap under Bush?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?
    I really can't see how that's an analogy to the relationship, if any, between potentially violent extremists, the Tea Partiers and the GOP.

    These extremists live in a different world and get their ideological guidance from people a lot more extreme than political commentators like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh (who are basically just amped up talking heads).

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    I think the problem with blaming the GOP for these groups is that many of these groups would be just as happy to take out the GOP.

    IS the GOP guilty of, at times, encouraging these groups, yes. That's not because they ACTUALLY want to incite violence, it is because they want those extremist votes.

    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?

    So they're being criminally irresponsible. Huge improvement.


    Also, isn't it funny that no Dems were saying or doing this crap under Bush?
    Someone has forgotten the lessons of the '03 Lesbian Militia Uprising.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Muse Among Men on
  • EvanderEvander Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    I think the problem with blaming the GOP for these groups is that many of these groups would be just as happy to take out the GOP.

    IS the GOP guilty of, at times, encouraging these groups, yes. That's not because they ACTUALLY want to incite violence, it is because they want those extremist votes.

    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?

    Evander on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?

    Pretty damn huge.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • psychotixpsychotix __BANNED USERS
    edited March 2010
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Or they could just be batshit insane.

    psychotix on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    psychotix wrote: »
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Or they could just be batshit insane.
    Given that it was a "Christian" militia, I'm willing to bet there was some sort of internal mythology about Rapture and End Times involved.

    Though these things do tend to take hold in people who are already vulnerable, and financial troubles can certainly put one in that state.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    psychotix wrote: »
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Or they could just be batshit insane.

    Or they could be completely sane and rational people who have been told time and again for years that a certain subset of the population is evil and out to get them, to the point where the repetition worked itself in so they feel that it is upon them to do something about this percieved monster.

    Jragghen on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?
    I really can't see how that's an analogy to the relationship, if any, between potentially violent extremists, the Tea Partiers and the GOP.

    These extremists live in a different world and get their ideological guidance from people a lot more extreme than political commentators like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh (who are basically just amped up talking heads).

    What the hell do you call "don't retreat, reload?" Hell, the leader of the minuteman movement told members to show up "locked, loaded and ready" in response to health care reform.

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    psychotix wrote: »
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Or they could just be batshit insane.
    Feral wrote: »

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited March 2010

    All nine people face the charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, and carrying a firearm during a crime of violence. In addition, Mr. Stone and one of his sons, David Brian Stone Jr., has been charged with teaching the use of explosive materials.

    I wasn't aware that was a crime, seems like you'd hit some 1st amendment issues with it.

    Conspiracy to commit explosive violence is not protected speech.

    moniker on
  • PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    So we reach a new question, then. If some one is ALREADY holding a gun to another man's head, and you walk over and say "shoot him", not because you want the man shot, but because you want the gunman to like you, what is your moral share of the murder?
    I really can't see how that's an analogy to the relationship, if any, between potentially violent extremists, the Tea Partiers and the GOP.

    These extremists live in a different world and get their ideological guidance from people a lot more extreme than political commentators like Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh (who are basically just amped up talking heads).

    There's obviously a correlation between crazy right wing hate speech (Beck, Limbaugh) and crazy right wing psycho militia terrorists who espouse crazy right wing hate speech.

    But correlation doesn't prove causation, so its more difficult to say "Rush Limbaugh caused this" because, well, Rush Limbaugh is a crazy asshole and crazy assholes listen to him so, well, where's the surprise?

    Obviously as a matter of ethics, human decency, and rationality screaming about death panels, Communism, Socialism, secret Obama conspiracies to take away your guns and the imminent LESBIAN ARMAGEDDON makes an individual a gigantic fucking tool and general waste of oxygen. Whether they're causing the crazy or merely a symptom of the crazy is harder to determine, although logically you have to imagine there's a certain level of cyclical reinforcement.

    PotatoNinja on
    Two goats enter, one car leaves
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    edited March 2010
    psychotix wrote: »
    I had read the news story earlier today. Chilling. Who are the types of people that subscribe to these radical ideologies? There has to be some undercurrent of desperation fueling them, though I can only assume it is financial.

    Or they could just be batshit insane.

    But people aren't always born batshit insane. If their parents are batshit insane, sure the child has a much greater chance of becoming batshit insane, but that isn't always the case. I assumed this was always so until I met a classmate named Heidi; her parents were so batshit insane and racist she had to secretly donate her money to the Haitian cause (because her parents didn't want her to help black people). Was there something intrinsically different about her that allowed her to reject their values and ideologies? Was it the fact that she lives in an ethnically/financially/politically diverse neighborhood and attends a similar school? What about good ol' teenage rebellion?

    Muse Among Men on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited March 2010
    Whether they're causing the crazy or merely a symptom of the crazy is harder to determine, although logically you have to imagine there's a certain level of cyclical reinforcement.

    There's a reason that "spin" implies going in circles.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Sign In or Register to comment.