I find 1v1 is much more about expansion control and 2v2 is much more about army movement and control.
In a 1v1 fight the defensive advantage is more significant and defending an expansion is much easier. In 2v2 you really need any expansion to withstand an attack or harassment from two players, not just one. On the other hand, ambushing a player out in the open in a 1v1 is only modestly useful unless you have very specific units they can't counter (cloaking mostly). One side loses the defensive advantage but unless you somehow catch their defenses out in the open (because they really screwed up?) it doesn't make as big of a difference.
Catching an army with its pants down in a 2v1 is, of course, a game-winning move.
Fun to see the mechanics change so much between game modes. Still having trouble switching from one to the other without a few bad games, but that's the nature of the beast I guess.
So I was just pumping out of 6 gateways (grabbed a gold min patch) and lost to a terran who didn't have an expo at first, and when he grabbed it ran me over with tanks and hellions. What the hell do you do against that? Stalkers and zealots get their shit pushed in...carriers really?
I think I could've used some immortals in the mix but I feel like it would have to be A LOT of them.
Immortal Shields ignore any damage inflicted over 10, so they're nearly immune to slow, heavy attacks (siege tanks) and completely vunerable to fast attacks (marines).
Immortals do ridiculously high amounts of damage to armored units. Like 50+ per shot. Immortals will very brutally savage armored units.
You can also use pheonixes to disable siege tanks while your stalkers tear apart the hellions, more micro-intensive obviously but its an option if you hate immortals.
So I was just pumping out of 6 gateways (grabbed a gold min patch) and lost to a terran who didn't have an expo at first, and when he grabbed it ran me over with tanks and hellions. What the hell do you do against that? Stalkers and zealots get their shit pushed in...carriers really?
I think I could've used some immortals in the mix but I feel like it would have to be A LOT of them.
Immortals completely dick up seige tanks, like 5 can take on like 10+ entrenched tanks.
Hellions are good against light-armor units (zealots/stalkers). Immortals have heavy armor, so...
Although I look pretty positively upon these changes, they are kinda annoying because I KNOW how to beat roaches/hydras and MMM balls. (hint: colossi) I really don't know what to do against mech because no one ever does it.
SLyM on
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
I am a little surprised to see people actually comlpaining about the Marauder nerf. They were way too powerful.
Protoss have been nerfed pretty much every patch - maybe I'm just used to it but I don't really see an issue with many of the changes they have made so far.
So I was just pumping out of 6 gateways (grabbed a gold min patch) and lost to a terran who didn't have an expo at first, and when he grabbed it ran me over with tanks and hellions. What the hell do you do against that? Stalkers and zealots get their shit pushed in...carriers really?
I think I could've used some immortals in the mix but I feel like it would have to be A LOT of them.
Immortals completely dick up seige tanks, like 5 can take on like 10+ entrenched tanks.
Hellions are good against light-armor units (zealots/stalkers). Immortals have heavy armor, so...
Immortals destroy almost anything on the ground - I was actually kind of expecting a nerf for them today. Although I didn't realize roaches were 'armored' no wonder immortals frigging eat them.
I am a little surprised to see people actually comlpaining about the Marauder nerf. They were way too powerful.
Protoss have been nerfed pretty much every patch - maybe I'm just used to it but I don't really see an issue with many of the changes they have made so far.
To be honest I was expecting the roach nerf - they were a bit two good for how fast you can get 6-8 of them in someones front door. I was not expecting the hydra nerf though, not really sure what they were seeing that one was needed.
Immortals get chewed up really badly by hydralisks, marines, and zerglings. They also have limited mobility, no anti-air and tend to be vulnerable to casters.
They're certainly a good unit, but I don't think I'd ever consider them overpowered.
Although I look pretty positively upon these changes, they are kinda annoying because I KNOW how to beat roaches/hydras and MMM balls. (hint: colossi) I really don't know what to do against mech because no one ever does it.
Immortals are pretty good, but you have to be extremely careful about stimmed marines and ghosts. Void Rays just got a buff that will make them better at quickly dropping tanks, pheonixes can be useful support as a temporarily disabled siege tank is a dead siege tank.
Stalkers with blink can tear apart terran ground when used correctly, but can also be torn apart by terran ground just the same. They're certainly not a bad unit to use as a kind of general backbone against Heavy Metal.
If your opponent gets lazy with Hellions zealots can tear armor up, mix in a few immortals to focus-fire hellions (they will drop them fast) and your zealots can walk over tanks and thors with relative ease.
Just started playing but my past RTS experience got me ranked into gold league with my placement matches. So anyone anyone have good control groupings for Terran building and unit groups?... I find mine lacking.
Also is there any way to map my control key to something like my middle mouse button?? I HATE the control key for unit mappings and have stayed away from it for unit mappings in most games of the last decade. I also wouldn't mind to change shift to mouse button 4 on my mouse either.
The amount of hyperbole that gets thrown around in this thread about how units perform and how races function on a whole seems like it's already beginning to impede serious discourse, I hope it doesn't get worse. Immortals don't destroy nearly anything on the ground. They are very good against anything armored on the ground, but other then that they aren't anything special. As stated basic troops do just fine.
Look at it this way. It takes an immortal three shots to kill a marauder, but also three shots to kill a marine. And you can build two marines for the cost of 1 marauder, and the marines will do more damage because they don't have to worry about hardened shields.
Likewise, it takes an immortal three shots to kill a roach but two shots to kill a zergling, and you get two zerglings for less than one roach. And once again zergling attacks don't need to worry about the immortals shields. Immortals are also nice and slow, easy to get a surround on.
I'm not sure if people build immortals in PvP but if they do, zealots will handle them just fine. It takes an immortal 8 shots to kill a zealot, and 4 to kill a stalker.
Basically just keep your armored guys away from immortals if at all possible.
I like the nerfs on the zerg units as a zerg player, but wish they gave me new toys to play with. As it is it seems like the best thing to do is just do whatever I was doing, but it's worse now. I foresee a zerg buff soon...
Yeah, i saw this and was like "ohh nice bliz, now zvz may not be all roaches... oh, umm, you forgot to buff ultras and give infestors their parasite range back... again."
I decided to play some non-ranked matches after getting rolled by zergling and protoss rushes.
To my suprise, I faced the dreaded Spine Rush. Replay Here
How in the world can you beat this in ZvZ?
EDIT: It's basically 10pool but you never make overlords, what you instead do is keep sending 4 of your 10 drones to become spine crawlers and build new ones as drones morph into structures....
Yeah, i saw this and was like "ohh nice bliz, now zvz may not be all roaches... oh, umm, you forgot to buff ultras and give infestors their parasite range back... again."
I think parasite as an ability just needs to be reworked, Blizzard doesn't seem interested in making it functionally balanced, and mind control abilities are a nightmare on that front anyways.
Wouldn't mind some Ultralisk love, even just reducing the building costs and build times would help.
can anybody link me to some decently extensive resources about protoss play?
i've been watching the day[9] PvT, and it's rather incited my urge to get good at protoss, but i know shit all about protoss build strats, or what units are the bread and butta of the protoss world.
not looking to follow anything to the letter, just hoping to get a feel for what a standard build order would be.
Xenocide Geek on
i wanted love, i needed love
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
You need stuff around your colossi though, because lings will just swarm the shit out of them otherwise.
This is what I think they need to do with ultras:
Make them just start with either the speed or armor upgrade. Give them a new ability:
Berserk: Makes ultralisk immune to all status effects for a short duration. Stuff like thor stun and fungal snare.
Maybe even make them run right over sentry shields too, just because it would be hilarious.
saw this guy 1 basing and not teching for the longest time. Then I scanned and saw a baneling nest and decided it'd be cool to move out and try to set up defense at my nat and expand. welp tons of lings came in and destroyed me, even as i was producing marines off 3 raxes, one with a reactor.
guess it's back to trying hellions again. Should have just sat back and pumped hellions for a while until the attack came.
You need stuff around your colossi though, because lings will just swarm the shit out of them otherwise.
This is what I think they need to do with ultras:
Make them just start with either the speed or armor upgrade. Give them a new ability:
Berserk: Makes ultralisk immune to all status effects for a short duration. Stuff like thor stun and fungal snare.
Maybe even make them run right over sentry shields too, just because it would be hilarious.
Oh man, if they created like, a shattering animation for the force field as the ultralisk just plows right through it and destroys it? And then your zerglings swarm in through the newly made gap?
I decided to play some non-ranked matches after getting rolled by zergling and protoss rushes.
To my suprise, I faced the dreaded Spine Rush. Replay Here
How in the world can you beat this in ZvZ?
EDIT: It's basically 10pool but you never make overlords, what you instead do is keep sending 4 of your 10 drones to become spine crawlers and build new ones as drones morph into structures....
I haven't watched your replay but if you 13 pool and save 3 larvae (start saving right before your spawning pool is at 50%, you should have 14/20 supply) You should be able to stop it fine, also don't be afraid to throw your workers into the mix because his economy is shit anyway.
saw this guy 1 basing and not teching for the longest time. Then I scanned and saw a baneling nest and decided it'd be cool to move out and try to set up defense at my nat and expand. welp tons of lings came in and destroyed me, even as i was producing marines off 3 raxes, one with a reactor.
guess it's back to trying hellions again. Should have just sat back and pumped hellions for a while until the attack came.
I haven't tried it yet, but I think expanding and immediately upgrading to a Planetary Fortress on your expansion would be a good way to expand under pressure. A fortress is a nightmare to take down and if its your natural you can basically poke at units from your cliff / choke while your fortress rains down fiery death.
If they try to run past your natural you block the choke and flank them (I did this to a group of about 20+ roaches, absolutely murdered them). If they try to fight your units you have the advantages of higher ground / line of sight / choke / whatever and your fortress does the heavy lifting. If they hit your fortress you repair it with SCVs and your army gets free shots in.
saw this guy 1 basing and not teching for the longest time. Then I scanned and saw a baneling nest and decided it'd be cool to move out and try to set up defense at my nat and expand. welp tons of lings came in and destroyed me, even as i was producing marines off 3 raxes, one with a reactor.
guess it's back to trying hellions again. Should have just sat back and pumped hellions for a while until the attack came.
I haven't tried it yet, but I think expanding and immediately upgrading to a Planetary Fortress on your expansion would be a good way to expand under pressure. A fortress is a nightmare to take down and if its your natural you can basically poke at units from your cliff / choke while your fortress rains down fiery death.
If they try to run past your natural you block the choke and flank them (I did this to a group of about 20+ roaches, absolutely murdered them). If they try to fight your units you have the advantages of higher ground / line of sight / choke / whatever and your fortress does the heavy lifting. If they hit your fortress you repair it with SCVs and your army gets free shots in.
I actually tried this vs toons and it went down in flames. My timing was off so the cc flew over and landed and I lifted off my wall JUST as he moved in with like 3 banelings and his speedlings. Lucky bastard.
saw this guy 1 basing and not teching for the longest time. Then I scanned and saw a baneling nest and decided it'd be cool to move out and try to set up defense at my nat and expand. welp tons of lings came in and destroyed me, even as i was producing marines off 3 raxes, one with a reactor.
guess it's back to trying hellions again. Should have just sat back and pumped hellions for a while until the attack came.
I haven't tried it yet, but I think expanding and immediately upgrading to a Planetary Fortress on your expansion would be a good way to expand under pressure. A fortress is a nightmare to take down and if its your natural you can basically poke at units from your cliff / choke while your fortress rains down fiery death.
If they try to run past your natural you block the choke and flank them (I did this to a group of about 20+ roaches, absolutely murdered them). If they try to fight your units you have the advantages of higher ground / line of sight / choke / whatever and your fortress does the heavy lifting. If they hit your fortress you repair it with SCVs and your army gets free shots in.
I actually tried this vs toons and it went down in flames. My timing was off so the cc flew over and landed and I lifted off my wall JUST as he moved in with like 3 banelings and his speedlings. Lucky bastard.
since then i've been hesitant to try it again.
If you think he'll baneling at all (and scouting vs zerg is fairly easy so you can usually count on spotting it), keep hellions outside the wall, then lower the wall just for an SCV or two to go out and start bunker/turrets while the CC is on it's way to landing.
But I've lost games to lowering my depot at exactly the wrong time too. Sucks, *L*.
Dang. I've lost five games in a row and I'm not even sure what I did wrong (except in one case).
I used to be rank 2 in gold; now I'm like 17. I guess eventually I'll sink to the point where my incompetence is matched by those around me. That's a nice thought.
To turn this post in a somewhat more constructive direction, I'll ask about the one game where I have a clear idea of why I lost. I scouted at the appropriate time and saw my opponent starting a second hatchery. I figured I'd take advantage of his (assumed) lack of troops as he builds and staffs this second base by building a big ball of infantry and then rolling it in. I threw together a dozen or so marines and half as many marauders (from 3 barracks, one of which was reactor'd) and attacked. I got rolled by his spine crawlers.
How on Earth do you stop a zerg player from fast expanding? Should I have just rushed for tanks? He also had a huge pile of zerglings; I don't think I could've gotten tanks and hellions in appropriate numbers before he pulled out enough resources from that expansion to catch up to me. Should I have just tried to FE myself?
I'm relatively certain that mule lets you keep up with a FE zerg, economy wise, for quite some time. I (because I tech) just ignore zergs who FE, then kill them with banshees or cripple them badly enough to make killing them fairly easy (FE delays your tier 2 that much longer, bad idea vs terrans.)
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In a 1v1 fight the defensive advantage is more significant and defending an expansion is much easier. In 2v2 you really need any expansion to withstand an attack or harassment from two players, not just one. On the other hand, ambushing a player out in the open in a 1v1 is only modestly useful unless you have very specific units they can't counter (cloaking mostly). One side loses the defensive advantage but unless you somehow catch their defenses out in the open (because they really screwed up?) it doesn't make as big of a difference.
Catching an army with its pants down in a 2v1 is, of course, a game-winning move.
Fun to see the mechanics change so much between game modes. Still having trouble switching from one to the other without a few bad games, but that's the nature of the beast I guess.
I think I could've used some immortals in the mix but I feel like it would have to be A LOT of them.
Immortals do ridiculously high amounts of damage to armored units. Like 50+ per shot. Immortals will very brutally savage armored units.
You can also use pheonixes to disable siege tanks while your stalkers tear apart the hellions, more micro-intensive obviously but its an option if you hate immortals.
Play a lot, work that macro, click lots of stuff really fast.
Depressing, is what this is.
Well, it's not like you have to cram in x hours a day to improve that part. You will just get better at it over time.
Immortals completely dick up seige tanks, like 5 can take on like 10+ entrenched tanks.
Hellions are good against light-armor units (zealots/stalkers). Immortals have heavy armor, so...
Can the Toss stop the timing mech push from T!??!?!?
OOOOOOOOOOH CAN YOU FEEL IT???
This post comes to you courtesy of the future, when everyone kicks the melodramatic whining up to a 9 out of 10 with every patch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP3egyvH-DU
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Protoss have been nerfed pretty much every patch - maybe I'm just used to it but I don't really see an issue with many of the changes they have made so far.
Immortals destroy almost anything on the ground - I was actually kind of expecting a nerf for them today. Although I didn't realize roaches were 'armored' no wonder immortals frigging eat them.
I am a freaking nerd.
To be honest I was expecting the roach nerf - they were a bit two good for how fast you can get 6-8 of them in someones front door. I was not expecting the hydra nerf though, not really sure what they were seeing that one was needed.
I am a freaking nerd.
I mean they kill 'em fast enough, but slowly and you can overwhelm them fairly easily.
They're certainly a good unit, but I don't think I'd ever consider them overpowered.
Immortals are pretty good, but you have to be extremely careful about stimmed marines and ghosts. Void Rays just got a buff that will make them better at quickly dropping tanks, pheonixes can be useful support as a temporarily disabled siege tank is a dead siege tank.
Stalkers with blink can tear apart terran ground when used correctly, but can also be torn apart by terran ground just the same. They're certainly not a bad unit to use as a kind of general backbone against Heavy Metal.
If your opponent gets lazy with Hellions zealots can tear armor up, mix in a few immortals to focus-fire hellions (they will drop them fast) and your zealots can walk over tanks and thors with relative ease.
Also is there any way to map my control key to something like my middle mouse button?? I HATE the control key for unit mappings and have stayed away from it for unit mappings in most games of the last decade. I also wouldn't mind to change shift to mouse button 4 on my mouse either.
so fuckin dumb
Look at it this way. It takes an immortal three shots to kill a marauder, but also three shots to kill a marine. And you can build two marines for the cost of 1 marauder, and the marines will do more damage because they don't have to worry about hardened shields.
Likewise, it takes an immortal three shots to kill a roach but two shots to kill a zergling, and you get two zerglings for less than one roach. And once again zergling attacks don't need to worry about the immortals shields. Immortals are also nice and slow, easy to get a surround on.
I'm not sure if people build immortals in PvP but if they do, zealots will handle them just fine. It takes an immortal 8 shots to kill a zealot, and 4 to kill a stalker.
Basically just keep your armored guys away from immortals if at all possible.
Zealots at choke points.
Sentry force fields at choke points or to prevent surrounds.
Colossi kill about infinity zerglings per second.
To my suprise, I faced the dreaded Spine Rush. Replay Here
How in the world can you beat this in ZvZ?
EDIT: It's basically 10pool but you never make overlords, what you instead do is keep sending 4 of your 10 drones to become spine crawlers and build new ones as drones morph into structures....
I think parasite as an ability just needs to be reworked, Blizzard doesn't seem interested in making it functionally balanced, and mind control abilities are a nightmare on that front anyways.
Wouldn't mind some Ultralisk love, even just reducing the building costs and build times would help.
Wow, more like I make a 1 square choke point, stick a zealot there and tech up for my first timing push.
i've been watching the day[9] PvT, and it's rather incited my urge to get good at protoss, but i know shit all about protoss build strats, or what units are the bread and butta of the protoss world.
not looking to follow anything to the letter, just hoping to get a feel for what a standard build order would be.
most of all, most of all
someone said true love was dead
but i'm bound to fall
bound to fall for you
oh what can i do
This is what I think they need to do with ultras:
Make them just start with either the speed or armor upgrade. Give them a new ability:
Berserk: Makes ultralisk immune to all status effects for a short duration. Stuff like thor stun and fungal snare.
Maybe even make them run right over sentry shields too, just because it would be hilarious.
saw this guy 1 basing and not teching for the longest time. Then I scanned and saw a baneling nest and decided it'd be cool to move out and try to set up defense at my nat and expand. welp tons of lings came in and destroyed me, even as i was producing marines off 3 raxes, one with a reactor.
guess it's back to trying hellions again. Should have just sat back and pumped hellions for a while until the attack came.
Oh man, if they created like, a shattering animation for the force field as the ultralisk just plows right through it and destroys it? And then your zerglings swarm in through the newly made gap?
It would be the greatest thing.
I haven't watched your replay but if you 13 pool and save 3 larvae (start saving right before your spawning pool is at 50%, you should have 14/20 supply) You should be able to stop it fine, also don't be afraid to throw your workers into the mix because his economy is shit anyway.
I haven't tried it yet, but I think expanding and immediately upgrading to a Planetary Fortress on your expansion would be a good way to expand under pressure. A fortress is a nightmare to take down and if its your natural you can basically poke at units from your cliff / choke while your fortress rains down fiery death.
If they try to run past your natural you block the choke and flank them (I did this to a group of about 20+ roaches, absolutely murdered them). If they try to fight your units you have the advantages of higher ground / line of sight / choke / whatever and your fortress does the heavy lifting. If they hit your fortress you repair it with SCVs and your army gets free shots in.
since then i've been hesitant to try it again.
If you think he'll baneling at all (and scouting vs zerg is fairly easy so you can usually count on spotting it), keep hellions outside the wall, then lower the wall just for an SCV or two to go out and start bunker/turrets while the CC is on it's way to landing.
But I've lost games to lowering my depot at exactly the wrong time too. Sucks, *L*.
I used to be rank 2 in gold; now I'm like 17. I guess eventually I'll sink to the point where my incompetence is matched by those around me. That's a nice thought.
To turn this post in a somewhat more constructive direction, I'll ask about the one game where I have a clear idea of why I lost. I scouted at the appropriate time and saw my opponent starting a second hatchery. I figured I'd take advantage of his (assumed) lack of troops as he builds and staffs this second base by building a big ball of infantry and then rolling it in. I threw together a dozen or so marines and half as many marauders (from 3 barracks, one of which was reactor'd) and attacked. I got rolled by his spine crawlers.
How on Earth do you stop a zerg player from fast expanding? Should I have just rushed for tanks? He also had a huge pile of zerglings; I don't think I could've gotten tanks and hellions in appropriate numbers before he pulled out enough resources from that expansion to catch up to me. Should I have just tried to FE myself?