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Heroes of Newerth: Get yer game on.

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Posts

  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It will be interesting what happens when the game goes retail.

    If the Sales fail S2 will need to do stuff to attract more people to buy it.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • donkyhotaydonkyhotay Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Vic wrote: »
    It is a bit odd actually, and shows the skewed view of the PSR system we have got from playing the beta. After all, considering the point of the PSR system there should be a 1300 PSR player for every 1700 PSR player.

    The queues for 1300 PSR players are unreasonably long because you can reset your stats for free, and thus no players stay at that level. Also, PSR being more important will lead to more no-stats games being created giving people unfamiliar with the game a way to learn.

    I agree, my PSR was actually below 1300 for awhile because I died a lot while still learning. Now it's starting to slowly move back up (I'm hovering around 1300). I could artificially inflate my stats by creating a new account but I don't want to because I know I'm not that good at the game and I want to play with people around my skill level. Currently it's hard for me to find people at my level because there are so many people at 1500 (with no history of course) that throws things off. I'm certain once it becomes necessary to pay for it that players will start segregating between the low and high caliber players without the constant resetting that currently makes all the stats worthless. I'm looking forward to it because it will be easier for me to play with people at my skill level as most people won't be willing to pay money to essentially 'lie' about their stats.

    donkyhotay on
    Do not be afraid to joust a giant just because some people insist on believing in windmills.
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  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Paying money to lie for stats is cheap.
    Paying money to lie for PSR isn't.

    The simple way to get high PSR is to play with your TEAM and go pubstomp.

    What holding me back atm is uncertainly after the game goes retail.
    Demigod anyone?
    I don't want to prepurchase and then later ends up trying to get a refund again like demigod if i don't like the state of the game at retail.
    Not to mention S2 refund policy existance itself is still an unknown.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SirsonSirson Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I tried playing this over the weekend, got bitched at nonstop for every little thing I did. Horrible community and entry level matchmaking so far, played like 4-5 games with the matchmaking tool. It's like DotA all over again, both the good and the bad.

    Sirson on
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    hrmm I cant agree with your complaints dis, but I can see how this game could be VERY difficult for new players. the community sucks, the learning curve is really steep, and its generally an unrewarding experience until you get good (I'm pretty average so the game is half fun and half infuriating).

    there needs to be a very clear way to prevent people who have never played a single game from entering matchmaking or public games with stats. that should NEVER happen, and yet it happens all the time. its silly, and it will just drive everyone away. there HAS to be an opt-out tutorial for those who have never played and maybe a mandatory number of practice matches for complete noobs. LoL and SC2 have something similar where you check your level of experience when you make an account. Maybe: 1) never played HoN/DotA/LoL , 2) played DotA but not HoN, 3) played HoN before, 4) pro at DotA/HoN

    what they really need is an extensive tutorial system with a series of matches of increasing difficulty to ease you into things. hero picking and roles, last hitting, denying, warding, harassment, lane control, ganks, pushes, team battles. Plus you really should know what EVERY hero and EVERY spell does (plus what most items do) before you set foot in a public match. Otherwise youre going to get fuckin rolled.

    going retail should fix a lot of the matchmaking issues (then again that's what people said about matchmaking). and they have yet to get team matchmaking set up. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt but realistically I doubt this game succeeds. They just haven't put in the requisite effort into making a notoriously difficult genre of game at all newbie friendly.

    valiance on
  • SirsonSirson Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Yea the tutorial is horrible and the items are almost completely overwhelming until you read a few guides. I'd be happy with some kind of bot play/singleplayer AI, to get used to the game.

    Sirson on
  • ackack Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    the main problem with this game will always be the community

    you can blame the matchmaking and lack of a tutorial or lack of placement matches

    but HoN has literally the worst community i have ever had to deal with ever

    ack on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    And that's the problem I see them having.

    Six months after retail what possible reason would a new player have to buy it? A multiplayer only game relies on either pick-up-and-playability or a strong and accessible community. It's not exactly an impulse buy. League of Legends at least lets you ease yourself in for free before you put any cash down, and Starcraft 2 will be out.

    Page- on
    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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  • ackack Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    the only reason i started playing was because i had friends that played

    and that's pretty much the only reason anyone should ever start playing it

    ack on
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Page- wrote: »
    And that's the problem I see them having.

    Six months after retail what possible reason would a new player have to buy it? A multiplayer only game relies on either pick-up-and-playability or a strong and accessible community. It's not exactly an impulse buy. League of Legends at least lets you ease yourself in for free before you put any cash down, and Starcraft 2 will be out.

    obviously no chance of the second thing. I'd be interested to see if you guys thought dota or LoL were better community-wise. I didnt play enough LoL to say, but DotA was easily as bad as HoN if not worse. Those who long for the DotA days are looking back through rose-tinted glasses. It was awful. I feel like the nature of these kinds of games prevents any kind of community from developing.

    so they clearly have to focus on pick-up-and-playability, which is tough because of the nature of the game: tons of items, skills and heroes, with tons of strategic depth. BUT its a more tractable problem than creating a helpful, friendly, welcoming community for a competitive team game where the slightest mistake by a single player can ruin the entire hr long match for 9 other people (and the awful community isn't all the fault of the vets being mean and yelling at newbs. Its hard to give helpful advice when the players you're advising don't speak your language, refuse to listen, or are otherwise giant morons). The slippery slope/positive feedback/snowballing effects on power level (enemies get stronger the more they kill you) make leaving/dropping/AFK/noobiness/lack of communication/mistakes in general hard to tolerate.

    If we segregate out skill levels through a good matchmaking/team match/PSR system (which they'll probably be close to after the new patch and retail hit) combined with a good tutorial/intro system (which they're nowhere near creating) you can alleviate much of the frustration new players will have.

    I fear S2 doesn't understand the importance of a good tutorial system to attracting and keeping new players. Then again maybe they dont care about attracting new blood. As ack suggests, this is a hardcore game for hardcore gamers. Maybe S2 feels that the hardcore population is enough of a playerbase that they can ignore a good tutorial.

    edit: so far I like this way more than I liked the sc2beta, but thats without the possibility of SC2 DotA and custom maps, so maybe I'll change my mind... this is just to suggest that maybe the playerbases arent entirely coeval

    valiance on
  • ackack Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    it's not obvious that there's no chance at an actual good community!

    it's totally possible!

    ack on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    As I said, LoL let's you try before you buy and DOTA is a WC3 mod, so you don't have to actually ever PLAY it to get your money's worth; there are a billion other custom maps, a bunch of well made single-player campaigns, and ladder games. DotA also has AI maps, which are very helpful, but you still need to the desire to learn everything and lose while you do. And there's no stat tracking for pubs or TDAs.

    Even if they set up tutorials, a GOOD game of dota/hon is too fluid and dynamic to be covered by if/then explanations and the majority of the skill involved can only be acquired through long hours of play, not theory. Unless you've already played a lot of dota then you can't jump into a hon game and expect to perform. That, and a lot of players will always be bad, which is a problem for any team-based game. Unless every match has a designated feeder slot, some people will be left out, and playing with people who are just as bad as you are will not make you a better player.

    That said, the community will eventually have to acknowledge their problems if they hope to survive. I've seen it before where a particularly unintuitive competitive game (though, never with a community as harsh), has an eventual swing from the like it or lump it attitude back toward being more open and willing to teach because they realize that they will die without new players. On the other end, some communities atrophy until they reach a kind of apathetic stability, with no hope of new players, and they just go about the motions. But that's usually long after the shelf life of the game has come and gone.

    Page- on
    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
    stream
  • VicVic Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    On the note of the tutorial, I could imagine a ton of mini-games that would be instructive and useful for new players. For example, the last hitting game! Play against an invulnerable bot and try to get as many last hits and denies as possible with multiple difficulty levels. A hero basics challenge for most heroes, showing off all the uses of that heroes abilities and giving the player challenges, pre-set fight situations where key use of their skill is needed to win (examples being creep stacking as legio/tempest, gank initiation as jester, ulti useage as kraken etc).

    It would be a lot of work of course, but it could be fun even for advanced players.

    Vic on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    ack wrote: »
    it's not obvious that there's no chance at an actual good community!

    it's totally possible!

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but HoN's community is no worse than any other game where the time commitment of multiple players can be completely negated by one player fucking up and there isn't really any way to fix it. WoW instances provide a reasonably similar experience and the exact same thing happens there, the only difference being that the vast majority of the content that was pugged was incredibly simplistic while HoN is complex mostly due to the number of heroes.

    One thing that I'm curious about is how many copies need to be sold for S2 to make a profit, and since game sales are generally front loaded I wonder if it is actually in their interest for players to buy the game and then eventually leave the community to cut down on server costs since I'm unsure how S2 expects to maintain a revenue stream after the intial burst or if they think that the sales for this game won't be front loaded for some reason.

    khain on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I think within 6 months after retail HoN will become free to play with microtransactions.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Vic wrote: »
    On the note of the tutorial, I could imagine a ton of mini-games that would be instructive and useful for new players. For example, the last hitting game! Play against an invulnerable bot and try to get as many last hits and denies as possible with multiple difficulty levels. A hero basics challenge for most heroes, showing off all the uses of that heroes abilities and giving the player challenges, pre-set fight situations where key use of their skill is needed to win (examples being creep stacking as legio/tempest, gank initiation as jester, ulti useage as kraken etc).

    It would be a lot of work of course, but it could be fun even for advanced players.

    this is a cool idea :^:

    @ page the fact that the game is fluid doesnt make it any worse to have to play with people who have (apparently) never heard of last hitting or the basics. thats all a tutorial is meant to do: teach the basics. problem is there are so many basics. and then there's getting actual play experience...

    valiance on
  • ackack Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    khain wrote: »
    ack wrote: »
    it's not obvious that there's no chance at an actual good community!

    it's totally possible!

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but HoN's community is no worse than any other game where the time commitment of multiple players can be completely negated by one player fucking up and there isn't really any way to fix it.


    yeah but i don't get mad and scream in my mic and call people retards

    why does everybody else

    ack on
  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    Vic wrote: »
    On the note of the tutorial, I could imagine a ton of mini-games that would be instructive and useful for new players. For example, the last hitting game! Play against an invulnerable bot and try to get as many last hits and denies as possible with multiple difficulty levels. A hero basics challenge for most heroes, showing off all the uses of that heroes abilities and giving the player challenges, pre-set fight situations where key use of their skill is needed to win (examples being creep stacking as legio/tempest, gank initiation as jester, ulti useage as kraken etc).

    It would be a lot of work of course, but it could be fun even for advanced players.

    this is a cool idea :^:

    @ page the fact that the game is fluid doesnt make it any worse to have to play with people who have (apparently) never heard of last hitting or the basics. thats all a tutorial is meant to do: teach the basics. problem is there are so many basics. and then there's getting actual play experience...

    Thing is, that's still a big timesink upfront just to play at an acceptable level, and there's a lot more to something like last hitting and denying than could be easily covered in a mini-game tutorial. You factor in lag, your lane, their lane, your opponent's lag, your lane partner's ability, and half a dozen other factors that would be overwhelming and difficult to grasp without the proper context.

    Tutorials are a great help, but there's a limit to how much a person is going to go through before they can actually play the game they bought.

    Page- on
    Competitive Gaming and Writing Blog Updated in October: "Song (and Story) of the Day"
    Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
    stream
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    ack wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    ack wrote: »
    it's not obvious that there's no chance at an actual good community!

    it's totally possible!

    I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but HoN's community is no worse than any other game where the time commitment of multiple players can be completely negated by one player fucking up and there isn't really any way to fix it.


    yeah but i don't get mad and scream in my mic and call people retards

    why does everybody else

    Immaturity.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You know there's already a tutorial right?

    SkutSkut on
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Immaturity is in every video game though, because of this:

    215499488_8pSZr-L-2.jpg

    HoN has more of it apparent because of the game mechanics becoming screwed over when one or more people screw up in your matchmaking game/sit in a corner and spam racial slurs over /all chat. There are people who get off on having no life and ruining other people's experience. And there are people who respond to this retarded shit with more retarded anger. It's a cycle.

    HoN is not something i'm going to play past retail because of the inescapable immaturity in every game I find. DOTA and this are fun, but not within this social framework. Other games have varying degrees to which you can ignore/escape immature people and enjoy the game, and HoN doesn't seem to possess any real refuge. You'd basically need a group of friends with retail to play this because virtually every name on the screen is ethier a noob, a moron or a elitist who QQs over anything under 1600+ score being in his game.

    And, even if they switch to a Free with Microtransactions system, how would that work? And would that really change the social dynamic or would it make it worse? No matter how I look at this, this game isn't going to last long simply because of the skewed rating system and the majority of players acting stupid over little things like said rating or what hero you pick or even fast you are.

    Corehealer on
    488W936.png
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Stats + PSR + Nasty Community = The Worst of Everything

    PSR and Stats is the reason why I don't like this game.

    PSR under 1500 folks are discriminated.
    So many games requires 1500+ PSR

    Stats screw up games.
    People feel their KD ratio is more important than winning the game.

    Leave Stats.
    You get Leave when you get kicked by morons.
    Wtf.
    And you can't leave in an unenjoyable game with a whiner whining at the team about how leet he is and how the team suck and blames the team for losing.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It's kind of amusing how all the things you say are bad are why I like HoN better than DotA and battle.net.

    Stats allow you to preview the players on your team in public game and if you don't like something then you can drop. PSR maybe not be the greatest implementation, but it makes the majority of the games I play enjoyable since the teams are somewhat balanced. Public DotA games were terrible because it was completely random on how the team ended up and thus the majority of the games were either one sided or decided based on who farmed the feeder the fastest. Finally, leave tracking is essential in a game where a single person leaving completely fucks the team and if you disconnect more than 5% of the time then please fuck off and die since while it may not be intentional you're wasting the time of nine other people. Also apparently you need to learn to find the concede button and basically the only time anyone gets kicked is when that single person is refusing to pass a concede vote. It's extremely rare for all nine people in the game to agree and kick someone since usually one side benefits from keeping the player.

    khain on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Why HoN will fail.
    Because of Stats and PSR.

    Only people good at this game will enjoy the game.
    Your average player and casual player will have trouble finding a game to play and more likely be unplayable for them.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SkutSkutSkutSkut Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Average players hover around 1500, if you drop below 1400 it's because you're bad and refuse to learn how to play.

    SkutSkut on
  • SirsonSirson Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Say what you want about learn2play, the community just sucks. Rude people in almost every game, at least the 30 bucks has a chance to cleave some of the more annoying players.

    Sirson on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Average players hover around 1500, if you drop below 1400 it's because you're bad and refuse to learn how to play.

    Wrong.
    People simply just setup another account when their PSR falls under 1400 because it's open beta.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Sirson wrote: »
    Say what you want about learn2play, the community just sucks. Rude people in almost every game, at least the 30 bucks has a chance to cleave some of the more annoying players.

    Even if the morons and racial slur spewing asshats get cleaved by the retail, what's to stop some of them, mainly the elitist people who complain about other's failings in game, from buying it and continuing in their silly goosery?

    If I wanna DOTA, i'll fire up WC3. Better yet, I will await the bajillion DOTA clones that will come from the Starcraft 2 Map Editor and which will be far superior to both this and WC3 DOTA in terms of customizability.

    It won't get rid of every moron, but somehow I think we'll survive better with the old and the new. At least there, you can play other custom games or even the standard game, and it's not the entire point, and the stats matter much less and don't necessarily exclude you from most if not all DOTA clones.

    And you don't need money past buying the game.

    Corehealer on
    488W936.png
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Wait for the upcoming Valve new game with IceFrog.
    Valve may not have made an RTS game but they are certainly one of the best developers.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Average players hover around 1500, if you drop below 1400 it's because you're bad and refuse to learn how to play.

    actually 1610 is the median for non-EMers, 1518 for EMers. at least barring better stats:
    http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=71662

    valiance on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    We need retail for more accurate stats.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Big Red TieBig Red Tie beautiful clydesdale style feet too hot to trotRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    dis why do you keep posting

    Big Red Tie on
    3926 4292 8829
    Beasteh wrote: »
    *おなら*
  • SirsonSirson Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Just played another game, and both sides melted down on eachother in a flurry of rage, but at least we won and I got 16 stat points.

    Sirson on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    dis why do you keep posting

    Because I am interested to see what happens when retail hits.
    So much speculation but what does the result shows.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DrakmathusDrakmathus Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Dis wrote: »
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Average players hover around 1500, if you drop below 1400 it's because you're bad and refuse to learn how to play.

    Wrong.
    People simply just setup another account when their PSR falls under 1400 because it's open beta.

    How does your response in any way address his statement? If you DROP below 1400, you are bad. You say people set up new accounts when they go under 1400. Does this make them not bad? No, they will drop below 1400 again. You haven't addressed his second statement at all.

    Drakmathus on
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drakmathus wrote: »
    Dis wrote: »
    SkutSkut wrote: »
    Average players hover around 1500, if you drop below 1400 it's because you're bad and refuse to learn how to play.

    Wrong.
    People simply just setup another account when their PSR falls under 1400 because it's open beta.

    How does your response in any way address his statement? If you DROP below 1400, you are bad. You say people set up new accounts when they go under 1400. Does this make them not bad? No, they will drop below 1400 again. You haven't addressed his second statement at all.

    So I am bad and refuse to learn to play?
    My Nick is Dis2012
    Please go download my replays and watch it and tell me how to improve myself then because I already read all the guides I could and tell me how bad I am from my replays.

    Below are my last 5 matches.
    http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=44070549

    http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=43985775

    http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=43937240

    http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=43927038

    http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=43915060

    Awaiting for constructive Criticism.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DrakmathusDrakmathus Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I watch 44070549 and 43985775. In both games your team comes back from some huge deficits. Kudos for the win, here's where you can improve...

    In both games you take mid and basically do very little. You average about one creep kill a minute, tower hug out of exp range, don't harass the enemy hero, don't check/control runes and most importantly don't deny. This is something you need to improve. In 44070549 TB is level 6 about 10 minutes in and you're level 3 (2 levels behind a side lane player). This is what caused their team to smack yours around for the next 40 minutes. Had they had a concerted push at anytime during this they would have won handily.

    Also, according to those two games your APM is 30-40. I click like a spaz and average around 120. A lot of that is superfluous but you should try and increase this to 60 or 70. This is a good base line and it will rise when you start laning for real. Harassing, denying and last hitting are all critical laning skills that you lack. I added you as a friend, I'll be able to play/practice with you tonight but I have to go to work now.

    Drakmathus on
  • DefunkerDefunker Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I watched this game with accursed. 41060483

    At the start of the game you do nothing. Nothing at all really. You stand behind Slither as he last hits, and spam shield a few times on the creeps, pushing the lane early game. As I recall, you have 1 creep kill @ 5 mins, and you haven't actually HIT an enemy hero with a spell or attack.

    In the first group fight you're roughly 1000 range behind your own teams front lines. You let slither tank, and you let him die with you at full health/mana and all your CDs up.

    You're really not helping your team at all, you're just kind of... there. You don't actively go after/harass heroes and you're not a presence on the front line, so you don't tank at all. You don't help with last hitting much either.

    Part of your problem is that you leveled your 300 range shield over your 700 range nuke/heal. So your nuke is pretty weak.

    Accursed has an awesome heal with a 6 second cooldown. Which you should be spamming as long as you have the mana and health. You have an ult that no one on your tier of play will work around, which will restore you to full health every time you use it, if you use it while tanking.

    I didn't finish watching. You started spending a lot of time walking from lane to lane/neutraling and getting to group fights late. Game was 0-15 them at roughly 25 minutes.

    Defunker on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DisDis Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Defunker wrote: »
    I watched this game with accursed. 41060483

    At the start of the game you do nothing. Nothing at all really. You stand behind Slither as he last hits, and spam shield a few times on the creeps, pushing the lane early game. As I recall, you have 1 creep kill @ 5 mins, and you haven't actually HIT an enemy hero with a spell or attack.

    In the first group fight you're roughly 1000 range behind your own teams front lines. You let slither tank, and you let him die with you at full health/mana and all your CDs up.

    You're really not helping your team at all, you're just kind of... there. You don't actively go after/harass heroes and you're not a presence on the front line, so you don't tank at all. You don't help with last hitting much either.

    Part of your problem is that you leveled your 300 range shield over your 700 range nuke/heal. So your nuke is pretty weak.

    Accursed has an awesome heal with a 6 second cooldown. Which you should be spamming as long as you have the mana and health. You have an ult that no one on your tier of play will work around, which will restore you to full health every time you use it, if you use it while tanking.

    I didn't finish watching. You started spending a lot of time walking from lane to lane/neutraling and getting to group fights late. Game was 0-15 them at roughly 25 minutes.

    Why you choose the last 20th game instead of the last 5 games?
    There is an obvious difference in play style between recent games and older games.

    Dis on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • DefunkerDefunker Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I noticed that as i was linking to the replay. On your stats page ingame that replay was on the top of the list. Finding replays ingame is weird and bugghy

    Defunker on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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