The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.

Curbing Aggressive Terrier Behavior *UPDATE*

QuidQuid Definitely not a bananaRegistered User regular
edited April 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
So we've just adopted a dog, Benny!

DSC05428.jpg

And while super adorable and friendly to everything bigger than him, he's got some very strong terrier instincts that are leading him to be really aggressive with smaller dogs and, more importantly to us, our cat Skitters:

18466_553751011872_50103185_32534590_7065450_n.jpg

So the big issue is getting him to stop barking at and chasing the cat. He hasn't bitten him but we'd rather not wait to find out if it could progress that far. Especially since Skitters was found declawed and has no way to really defend himself. I'd also like to make sure I can take him to the dog park and not have to worry about him terrorizing/possibly injuring smaller dogs.

Currently I've been holding Skitters in my lap every now and again and letting Benny sniff him as much as he wants. However he's still flipping out the moment Skitters moves. At that point I tell Benny down, take Skitters from the room and then put Benny in his crate for a while. Until this issue is solved he stays either in sight or in his crate when both the wife and I are gone/asleep.

I was hoping there might be other training techniques we can use to help solve this.

Quid on

Posts

  • LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Okay, you aren't going to like hearing this, but you may have to either keep the animals separated every time you're not around or get rehome one of them.

    Terriers often have prey drive. You can suppress it and control it through training (Click to Calm is a good book for that), but you can't erase it. I, personally, would never trust a terrier who is showing an intense desire to chase a smaller animal to be "safe" around that kind of animal. Terriers were bred for centuries to hunt and kill "vermin" (ie smaller critters) so this is a deep-rooted instinct, not the same as a labrador deciding "lolz, it's funny when kitty runs from me! Funny kitty! Woof woof!"

    DO NOT TAKE HIM TO THE DOG PARK, EVER. A terrier with prey drive towards small dogs is NOT a dog who belongs at a dog park, any more than a pit bull who shows dog-aggression belongs at a dog park. Accept this about your dog, because it's unfair to put other people's pets at risk.

    Since your cat is declawed and has absolutely no chance against the dog, I would rehome one of them. But if you decide to keep them both, I recommend keeping the dog on a leash while he's around the cat, for now; never leaving him alone with the cat, EVER; and reading all the books you can find on reactive dogs.

    LadyM on
  • tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LadyM is pretty much correct. We have 3 dogs, two of which are terriers, and they get a long fine with our cat but the cat can defend herself and escape most situations if need be. You should definitely keep them separated when you're not monitoring them.

    When you have total control of the situation bring them together and let them socialize. It is imperative that you assert yourself as the alpha of the "pack" and provide negative reinforcement when the dog is antagonizing the cat and positive reinforcement when he's ignoring or just playing. The terrier instinct is hard to overcome but it can be done.

    Did you get him from a shelter? Usually they require you to "visit" the animals together before adoption, to make sure they are not completely incompatible.

    tofu on
  • radroadkillradroadkill MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    We did get him from the local SPCA. Before we adopted him we did some cat exposures with some of the workers where he was on a leash and saw cats in: cages, in a room roaming free, and some free roaming kittens. He was totally cool and mostly stared at them until a tiny kitten hissed and then he barked a few times and lost interest as soon as we turned him away and took him outside.

    We're also very willing to spend time to train and try to curb this behavior in him. We have patience and a good schedule; we're not above outside training and lots of time to make it happen. We've only had Benny here for... well, a day now, so it's not a lost cause and as Quid said, he's never tried to hurt the cat he just seems to think it's interesting to stare at until Skitters moves and then he wants to chase.

    If all efforts fail at least Benny seems to not mind his roomy kennel. Right now I have him out with me until I go to bed and even though we were out playing and he was lying at my feet for a while he just up and went in there to curl up and sleep so I don't feel so bad about it being a potential permanent situation but we'd like to see what we can do to minimize or eliminate this.

    He's also a terrier mix but we're not sure with what; hopefully a vet can give us a better idea. I'm honestly not sure if he's mixed with another terrier or another breed and which instincts could.might win out in the end.

    radroadkill on
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    How old is Benny? approximate is fine

    Very few adult dogs enjoy dog parks. If I were you I wouldn't worry about the dog park. Make play dates with one or two dogs at a time and let him get to know them before letting them play (ie do some walking with the other owner with the two dogs on the outside) Take him for on leash walks, go hiking with him on leash and see what he is like in 6 mos to a year. Shelter dogs can take up to 6 months to completely relax and show their true personality after coming home.

    The cat is a trickier issue. How did you initially introduce them? Can you keep them in separate rooms for now? Rub each one down with a towel and leave the towel in the other one's room for a bit. That will let them get used to each other's scent and just sort of regard it as part of the background and relax around it. Try and work on teaching Benny to relax, get him a nice cushy bed, encourage him to lay down next to you and do long slow strokes along his body. Look for his breathing slowing down and his muscles becoming floppy. Once he does this well, put it on cue and you can use it (as long as you keep practicing) to ask him to relax himself.

    Then after about two weeks (to let him get used to you and the cat scent and the routines of your household, open the doorway a little bit and have someone else encourage the cat to walk past the doorway (slowly if possible) while you are relaxing with Benny and encourage him to keep relaxing. (you can have him on leash so he can't get to the cat. Getting the cat used to Benny's scent is important too because your cat's body language will be very different and less exciting if she is relaxed.

    Click to calm is an awesome book but I'm not sure it is the one that I would recommend for this particular issue (the kitty). Karen Overall's relaxation protocol or Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed probably have instructions that apply to your situation in a more straightforward manner.

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    the big questio is he going after your cat aggressively or trying chase/play. big difference

    mts on
    camo_sig.png
  • GungHoGungHo Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Kistra's ideas are great.

    GungHo on
  • radroadkillradroadkill MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    mts wrote: »
    the big questio is he going after your cat aggressively or trying chase/play. big difference

    This is what we're not sure of. I don't think Benny wants to eat Skitters, but we want to make sure he doesn't change his mind. :P

    He's tried to chase the cat once. Skitters spent most of yesterday on the bathroom counter, chilling away from the new dog and Benny kept going up the stairs to try and sniff him. Eventually I sat on the floor with Benny while he attempted to stand on is back legs and sniff the cat. I worked on getting him to "sit" and pay attention to me rather than Skitters. Once Benny stopped trying to sniff the cat and jump up on his own I picked up the cat and held Benny by the collar with one hand on the floor. Benny got to sniff his butt, face, and paws for a good while. The cat just lay there and took it, not really freaking out, but more annoyed that he had to tolerate it. When I let Skitters go he went to trot down the steps and Benny tried to chase after him. I grabbed him by the collar just as Skitters failed in his attempt to swipe him across the nose.

    Once the cat was out of sight Benny didn't try to go after him, he wasn't growling or snarling, or poised to run. Also, no hackles raised or tight posture. I'm going with the assumption those are good signs because most dogs I've been around who are acting aggressive to another animal show those signs, or flat out refuse to hold still and keep trying to break away from their owners.


    Today the cat was on the couch back/window ledge and Benny tried one or twice to get on his back legs to sniff the cat's face; Skitters responded by backing up a few steps and I tried to work on some training commands with Benny. I figured cheesy treats, lots of love and praise, and a a squeaky hedgehog are way more interesting than my lazy can and he seemed to think so as well 98% of the time.

    Oh, and he's barked at the cat a few times from his crate. As in, maybe three barks in a row this morning when I was coming down to let him out after Quid left and the cat walked by him to get to the window.

    We're estimating Benny being somewhere between 2-5 based on the tooth chart at the SPCA and other ones online; it's another thing the vet can give us a better idea on. I'm thinking he's closer to 2-3.

    Skitters is adjusting just like he did when I adopted him into my house in Florida with my retriever, and when we stayed at my brother-in-law's with their cat and their lab-mix: he's a tiny bit twitchy and seems a bit annoyed his schedule (aka- sleeping and staring out the window) have been interrupted but he's not pissy. He allows us to pet him him, give him love and treats, eats normally, and continues to grace us with his presence on our bed at night. :P

    Thanks for all of the advice so far. I know a lot of this will take time and patience and lots of work; we're willing to put in the hours. It's only day two so no miracles expected; none of us are on our new schedules yet or fully know each other. We're open to any other advice or suggestions offered. At this point I think it's more preventative and making sure Benny doesn't somehow think it's a good idea to constantly torture my cat for some reason or to get (any/more?) aggressive.

    I'll look into those books listed. :D

    radroadkill on
  • mtsmts Dr. Robot King Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    without having seen any of these i would guess he is trying to play with skitters. as everyone else said keep them seperated if you can't watch them. work on training him. give skitters a place to run and hide where the dog can't go. i suggest a baby gate. that way they can see/smell each other but still have physical seperation.praise him for good interactions.

    like you said its all new to him and he is probably just really excited at his new things

    mts on
    camo_sig.png
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Honestly, even if Benny "just" wants to play I would go through exactly the same steps. It doesn't sounds like Skitters wants to play with Benny (at least yet, this may change but likely only if Benny is calm around Skitters). Every time Skitters runs away from Benny, Skitters is going to get more interesting to Benny.

    At 2-3 I wouldn't both with the dog park in terms of interacting with a big pack of dogs. Many dogs that enjoy dog parks when they are adolescents do not enjoy dog parks as adults. If you can find times when the dog park is empty they are great places to train with lots of doggy smell as a distraction, though. And if you have friends with dogs that can meet you there when they are empty they are fun places to meet up and let your dogs run together off-leash. But at this point I leave whenever other dogs show up.

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • tofutofu Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    mts wrote: »
    without having seen any of these i would guess he is trying to play with skitters. as everyone else said keep them seperated if you can't watch them. work on training him. give skitters a place to run and hide where the dog can't go. i suggest a baby gate. that way they can see/smell each other but still have physical seperation.praise him for good interactions.

    like you said its all new to him and he is probably just really excited at his new things

    Yeah, baby gates are great.

    In my experience holding one animal just makes them more interesting to the others while leaving the one you're holding feeling trapped. You probably want to avoid that.

    tofu on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Alright, things have vastly improved today. Benny's still not completely over the cat but Skitters doesn't have to spend his time holed up in the laundry room/bathroom. He's on his spot on the couch by the window and while Benny tries to jump up there and sniff him every now and again he's mostly lost interest in Skitters when he's just laying there.

    He's still getting crated for the long term but it's starting to look like this isn't as big of a problem I first thought and I instead set my expectations too high for the first day.

    The baby gate idea is a good one. On days off I usually have all the windows and doors open which means the cat will want to be in the back half of the house by the porch. It'll give him a nice chance to have run of his own area.

    Kistra thank you very much for the links and advice, especially the relaxation protocol.

    Quid on
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    54716a34.jpg

    So Benny has chilled out completely around the cat. We've also taken him to the dog park and carefully introduced him to the other small dogs. Turns out he's just stupid aggressive when wanting to get to know some other animal. As soon as he actually gets to the other dogs he just sniffs them and stops caring.

    So yeah, huzzah! After a bunch of time and patience he's calmed down around smaller animals.

    Quid on
  • KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yay, that is really good news! My pup did basically the same thing when we first got him. I still don't let him meet other dogs if he looks all excited because I know he will be rude about it. I think lack of self-control is a common reason dogs end up in the pound, it takes a little bit of work but self-control is entirely trainable.

    Kistra on
    Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
  • vorinvorin Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yeah, my miniature Schnauzer does the exact same thing when she sees another dog. She freaks out and barks her head off and if she gets a chance will run as fast as she can while barking said head off until she gets right up into the dog's face and butt.

    This take some dogs by surprise and freaks them out a bit. Once she gets up ins though she is very nice and wants to play with the other dog.

    I think it's a terrier breed thing.

    vorin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Mark it zero!
Sign In or Register to comment.