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[immigration] and Human Rights

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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Namrok wrote: »
    So, cries of racism aside...

    How are people supposed to feel when an ethic group moves in, doesn't speak the language, transforms an area that used to be safe into a ghetto, trashes it, drives away most people who used to live there, and generally makes a nuisance and a problem.

    I see things like "Well, economically speaking, they are good" and "In three generations they will be just as normalized as most americans" and "The same thing happened to <insert ethnic group here> and look how they turned out?"

    But what about now? What about the people who were born here, who are suffering because of it now? Is it wrong of them to want something done? Is it wrong of them to get resentful or territorial? They have to cope with this alien presense drastically fucking their quality of life. People who by all measures are not supposed to be here.

    Well, I'd dispute a few of those things. Do illegal immigrants really transform places into ghettos? I don't think they do. They might move into preexisting ghettos in order to keep a low profile and avoid paying a lot in rent, but they aren't known to be particularly prone to criminal activity, so I doubt that the average immigrant population is going to make an area less safe. Undoubtedly, there are notable individual exceptions, but I don't believe there's anything that could be called a trend. To individuals who are unlucky enough to come across the odd deranged violent immigrant criminal, I gotta say, they're unlucky.*

    Regarding language, most recent immigrants recognize the importance of learning English, and about 90% of the second generation speak English. It doesn't actually take that long for immigrants to adapt to American culture. I understand that this doesn't really address the concerns you raise for that window when immigrants are recently arrived, but I do think you should somewhat shrink how big you believe that window to be.

    Regarding the suffering of natives, I dispute that crime is a serious problem, at least as immigrants are concerned. I acknowledge the difficulties that competition brings though. But, how should this be dealt with? Are we maintaining strict controls on immigration simply the help out the poor and uneducated?

    *One way to reduce the likelihood of even this would be mass legalization, and an expanded visa program that would allow more low-skill immigrants to come here legally. This would allow for screening out of dangerous individuals, and for immigrants who are here to go to law enforcement without fear for their own fate, such that problematic elements among immigrant populations can be dealt with.

    Loren Michael on
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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Can't we just get a system setup so people can come here legally? Why is this so hard? Why are people who support "legal" immigration being lumped with people who are "anti-immigration"?

    I'm almost certain that most people who support locking down the boarder and having a way to document immigrants are all in favor for "legal immigration". No one is talking about shutting the boarders down for good, no one is talking about sending people home simply based off of their skin color, it just comes down to "are you legal or not". Why is this so complicated?

    Yes'm. :^:

    adytum on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Well, I'd dispute a few of those things. Do illegal immigrants really transform places into ghettos? I don't think they do. They might move into preexisting ghettos in order to keep a low profile and avoid paying a lot in rent, but they aren't known to be particularly prone to criminal activity, so I doubt that the average immigrant population is going to make an area less safe. Undoubtedly, there are notable individual exceptions, but I don't believe there's anything that could be called a trend. To individuals who are unlucky enough to come across the odd deranged violent immigrant criminal, I gotta say, they're unlucky.*

    That link presents no methodology, which makes me highly skeptical of it's conclusions. Is mixing legal and illegal immigrants hiding the rate among illegals? Are crimes simply going unreported amongst the illegal population?

    HamHamJ on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Namrok wrote: »
    The problems we are seeing have NOTHING to do with the color of the skin, but are a blatant consequence of the laws that are being broken.

    Namrock, are you familiar with the arguments that, almost exactly like the illegal drug trade, many of the problems associated with illegal immigration are a direct consequence of the laws themselves?

    Loren Michael on
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    legionofonelegionofone __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    Loren, detharin already ripped apart your entire "illegals commit less crimes" earlier in the thread.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=116626&page=46

    Scroll down. Stop being a sophist and reposting stuff hoping you don't get called on it.

    legionofone on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Namrok wrote: »
    Hasn't this thread produced about a zillion studies showing no correlation between illegal immigration and other crimes? Is there any evidence that illegal immigrants "hide 20 or 30 to a house and trash everything around them" or is that just something we're supposed to accept at face value?

    It's called a Sunday drive through a Manassas, VA suburb. It came up a few pages ago. I see it every time I drive through there with my own two eyes.

    I can't blame you for not believing me, I'm just some dude on the internet (and I'm shocked I haven't been called racist yet), but yeah.

    It happens.

    Maybe not everywhere, I donno. I only know what I see.

    Well, with a bit of research and thought you could know not only what you see, but what is observable through research and some simple logistics and doing so would give you a wider, more accurate view of the world around you and a better basis to form more educated opinions.

    But in lieu of that you can rely on your Sunday drives. Your other comment is correct, you are just some dude on the internet and "I totally saw all these immigrants bein' illegal and stealin' social security numbers and trashin' this house" doesn't work as evidence. At all.

    PotatoNinja on
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    Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Can't we just get a system setup so people can come here legally? Why is this so hard? Why are people who support "legal" immigration being lumped with people who are "anti-immigration"?

    I'm almost certain that most people who support locking down the boarder and having a way to document immigrants are all in favor for "legal immigration". No one is talking about shutting the boarders down for good, no one is talking about sending people home simply based off of their skin color, it just comes down to "are you legal or not". Why is this so complicated?

    There is a system. It's just very, very hard to get in.

    Also, a lot of it is thinly veiled racism. The "they increase the crime rate!" and "they bring in drugs!" lines of reasoning both assume that people are going to be criminals and drug dealers simply by virtue of their foreign-ness.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Well, I'd dispute a few of those things. Do illegal immigrants really transform places into ghettos? I don't think they do. They might move into preexisting ghettos in order to keep a low profile and avoid paying a lot in rent, but they aren't known to be particularly prone to criminal activity, so I doubt that the average immigrant population is going to make an area less safe. Undoubtedly, there are notable individual exceptions, but I don't believe there's anything that could be called a trend. To individuals who are unlucky enough to come across the odd deranged violent immigrant criminal, I gotta say, they're unlucky.*

    That link presents no methodology, which makes me highly skeptical of it's conclusions. Is mixing legal and illegal immigrants hiding the rate among illegals? Are crimes simply going unreported amongst the illegal population?

    That's fair criticism, it's an op-ed piece. I'll peek around a bit more.

    Loren Michael on
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    ShushnikShushnik regular
    edited August 2010
    Can't we just get a system setup so people can come here legally? Why is this so hard? Why are people who support "legal" immigration being lumped with people who are "anti-immigration"?

    I'm almost certain that most people who support locking down the boarder and having a way to document immigrants are all in favor for "legal immigration". No one is talking about shutting the boarders down for good, no one is talking about sending people home simply based off of their skin color, it just comes down to "are you legal or not". Why is this so complicated?

    There is a system. It's just very, very hard to get in.

    Also, a lot of it is thinly veiled racism. The "they increase the crime rate!" and "they bring in drugs!" lines of reasoning both assume that people are going to be criminals and drug dealers simply by virtue of their foreign-ness.

    I don't espouse those arguments, but exactly how do they depend on that assumption? I don't see the connection.

    Shushnik on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Loren, detharin already ripped apart your entire "illegals commit less crimes" earlier in the thread.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=116626&page=46

    Scroll down. Stop being a sophist and reposting stuff hoping you don't get called on it.

    Detharin was addressing Scalfin, and he didn't show that immigrants are more prone to committing crimes than native-born people.

    Loren Michael on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Also, I seriously doubt things like overcrowding or defaulting on mortgages is going to be tracked by crime rate. So you would need to get statistics on illegal immigration versus foreclosures, mortgage defaults, property values, building code violations, etc.

    HamHamJ on
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    DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited August 2010

    Detharin was addressing Scalfin, and he didn't show that immigrants are more prone to committing crimes than native-born people.

    100% of native-born people do not commit one or more crimes just waking up in the morning.

    Detharin on
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    ShushnikShushnik regular
    edited August 2010
    Detharin wrote: »

    Detharin was addressing Scalfin, and he didn't show that immigrants are more prone to committing crimes than native-born people.

    100% of native-born people do not commit one or more crimes just waking up in the morning.

    It's a crime that certain native people wake up every morning. Disproven. Moving on.

    Shushnik on
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    ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I like how, almost immediately after Yar posted this:
    Yar wrote: »
    For the most part, this discussion goes around in a circle indefinitely. The anti-immigrant will talk about the economy, until that is clearly proven false, then they'll focus on low-skill workers, until that is proven false, then they'll bring up crime, until that is proven false, and by then enough pages have gone by that someone can get away with bringing up the economy again. If it hasn't been long enough for that to work yet, then instead the crime argument will segue into the "the law is the law, being an illegal immigrant is a crime" fallacy trap for a few pages until it's safe to bring up the economy again. This discussion has gone in that same circle through about 6 threads and many months recently.

    we have segued straight into crime, from low-skill workers.

    And here comes Detharin with "being an illegal immigrant is a crime", right on cue.

    ronya on
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    DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Being an illegal immigrant is a crime. Queue the "but its not that BAD of a crime" singers...

    EDIT now deporting them before we assimilate how they make such tasty tasty carne asada chimichungas now that would really be a crime.

    Detharin on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    ronya wrote: »
    I like how, almost immediately after Yar posted this:
    Yar wrote: »
    For the most part, this discussion goes around in a circle indefinitely. The anti-immigrant will talk about the economy, until that is clearly proven false, then they'll focus on low-skill workers, until that is proven false, then they'll bring up crime, until that is proven false, and by then enough pages have gone by that someone can get away with bringing up the economy again. If it hasn't been long enough for that to work yet, then instead the crime argument will segue into the "the law is the law, being an illegal immigrant is a crime" fallacy trap for a few pages until it's safe to bring up the economy again. This discussion has gone in that same circle through about 6 threads and many months recently.

    we have segued straight into crime, from low-skill workers.

    And here comes Detharin with "being an illegal immigrant is a crime", right on cue.

    Is parody defined by intent or execution? Because I used to believe the former but this thread might be changing my mind...

    PotatoNinja on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Also, I seriously doubt things like overcrowding or defaulting on mortgages is going to be tracked by crime rate. So you would need to get statistics on illegal immigration versus foreclosures, mortgage defaults, property values, building code violations, etc.

    Well, I've found quite a bit that indicates that, say, Arizona has had a drop in crime while it's had a influx of (illegal) immigrants (with Mariscopa county being the exception).

    Overcrowding and foreclosures are things that, again, would be at least partially be addressed by allowing more people to be here legally.

    Loren Michael on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    ronya wrote: »
    I like how, almost immediately after Yar posted this:
    Yar wrote: »
    For the most part, this discussion goes around in a circle indefinitely. The anti-immigrant will talk about the economy, until that is clearly proven false, then they'll focus on low-skill workers, until that is proven false, then they'll bring up crime, until that is proven false, and by then enough pages have gone by that someone can get away with bringing up the economy again. If it hasn't been long enough for that to work yet, then instead the crime argument will segue into the "the law is the law, being an illegal immigrant is a crime" fallacy trap for a few pages until it's safe to bring up the economy again. This discussion has gone in that same circle through about 6 threads and many months recently.

    we have segued straight into crime, from low-skill workers.

    And here comes Detharin with "being an illegal immigrant is a crime", right on cue.

    Well, I agree with Yar... but at the same time, there really isn't a lot about the issue to go over. It's not all that complex, at least insofar as it affects Americans.

    I'd love to talk about immigration-as-development, but that's just one of my things. I don't expect others to enjoy the subject half as much as I do.

    Loren Michael on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Loren, detharin already ripped apart your entire "illegals commit less crimes" earlier in the thread.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=116626&page=46

    Scroll down. Stop being a sophist and reposting stuff hoping you don't get called on it.

    Detharin's argument is that illegals are harder to catch. Which is a great argument except for the fact that it doesn't matter for almost all crimes the way he's thinking about it.


    The fact that illegals are not in the system might seem important, but in all likelihood you're not in the system either. Your fingerprints or photograph aren't there. The police aren't omniscient, this is not tv. Crimes don't get solved because they pull up everything about you because you're a suspect and then have you accidentally make a small mistake about which hand the other guy used. Getting away with a crime is just as easy for you as it is for an illegal immigrant. Most arrests are direct, they catch you trying to get away.


    Say you steal a car. You get away with it and the police hear about it the next day. What exactly does being illegal matter here?

    Julius on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Detharin wrote: »
    Being an illegal immigrant is a crime.

    And gay men can already marry women if they wanted to, so that's totally not a law in need of changing.

    Loren Michael on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Also, I seriously doubt things like overcrowding or defaulting on mortgages is going to be tracked by crime rate. So you would need to get statistics on illegal immigration versus foreclosures, mortgage defaults, property values, building code violations, etc.

    Well, I've found quite a bit that indicates that, say, Arizona has had a drop in crime while it's had a influx of (illegal) immigrants (with Mariscopa county being the exception).

    Overcrowding and foreclosures are things that, again, would be at least partially be addressed by allowing more people to be here legally.

    1) These statistics are based on reported crimes. Illegals who are victims of crime almost certainly under-report. Thus, you need to account for that.

    2) If you legalize people, then you will undermine your own argument that lost wages are made up for in cheaper goods and services (and thus real wages do not change much) because the cost of employing the now legal immigrants would go up because they would no longer be working under illegal conditions. And thus costs would go up with no increase in wages, causing real wages to fall.

    HamHamJ on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Detharin wrote: »

    Detharin was addressing Scalfin, and he didn't show that immigrants are more prone to committing crimes than native-born people.

    100% of native-born people do not commit one or more crimes just waking up in the morning.

    And almost everyone commits a crime each day if you wanna look at it that day. Making misdemeanors count as proper crimes is just retarded.

    Julius on
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    Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Shushnik wrote: »
    Can't we just get a system setup so people can come here legally? Why is this so hard? Why are people who support "legal" immigration being lumped with people who are "anti-immigration"?

    I'm almost certain that most people who support locking down the boarder and having a way to document immigrants are all in favor for "legal immigration". No one is talking about shutting the boarders down for good, no one is talking about sending people home simply based off of their skin color, it just comes down to "are you legal or not". Why is this so complicated?

    There is a system. It's just very, very hard to get in.

    Also, a lot of it is thinly veiled racism. The "they increase the crime rate!" and "they bring in drugs!" lines of reasoning both assume that people are going to be criminals and drug dealers simply by virtue of their foreign-ness.


    I don't espouse those arguments, but exactly how do they depend on that assumption? I don't see the connection.

    Being Mexican doesn't make you inherently likely to commit crimes or deal drugs. Being poor or not having access to decent employment might make those things more likely, but you can control those factors by allowing more people in legally, providing them help, etc.

    The thing is, the majority (i'm not saying all, but the majority) of anti-illegal immigrant voices don't say "people want to come here, but the current system isn't working, how can we fix this?" but rather "people want to come here, how can we make sure they can't?" They assume that problems stemming from illegal immigrants are inherent to the people themselves, and not to the conditions they find themselves in.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Also, I seriously doubt things like overcrowding or defaulting on mortgages is going to be tracked by crime rate. So you would need to get statistics on illegal immigration versus foreclosures, mortgage defaults, property values, building code violations, etc.

    Well, I've found quite a bit that indicates that, say, Arizona has had a drop in crime while it's had a influx of (illegal) immigrants (with Mariscopa county being the exception).

    Overcrowding and foreclosures are things that, again, would be at least partially be addressed by allowing more people to be here legally.

    1) These statistics are based on reported crimes. Illegals who are victims of crime almost certainly under-report. Thus, you need to account for that.

    2) If you legalize people, then you will undermine your own argument that lost wages are made up for in cheaper goods and services (and thus real wages do not change much) because the cost of employing the now legal immigrants would go up because they would no longer be working under illegal conditions. And thus costs would go up with no increase in wages, causing real wages to fall.

    1) Sure they under-report. I'm positive they do. This is an argument for increased legalization.

    2) Nah, more competition is sufficient for driving down the cost of labor. Illegal workers drive it lower, sure (and I would really prefer that there wasn't a minimum wage at all) but compromises have to be made.

    Loren Michael on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    1) These statistics are based on reported crimes. Illegals who are victims of crime almost certainly under-report. Thus, you need to account for that.

    Native-born Americans also under-report. Accounting for unreported crimes leads you towards insanity because you'd have to measure what people haven't told you.

    I mean, you have a valid point but it's not usefull. We can't know whether illegals under-report more than the general populace because they don't tell you.

    Julius on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    1) Sure they under-report. I'm positive they do. This is an argument for increased legalization.

    It's also an argument that the rate isn't actually as low as it seems.
    2) Nah, more competition is sufficient for driving down the cost of labor. Illegal workers drive it lower, sure (and I would really prefer that there wasn't a minimum wage at all) but compromises have to be made.

    Compromise between what and what?

    And again, it would obviously not drive it down as much. So if real wages are just barely holding even now, they would drop into the negatives under your plan.
    Julius wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    1) These statistics are based on reported crimes. Illegals who are victims of crime almost certainly under-report. Thus, you need to account for that.

    Native-born Americans also under-report. Accounting for unreported crimes leads you towards insanity because you'd have to measure what people haven't told you.

    I mean, you have a valid point but it's not usefull. We can't know whether illegals under-report more than the general populace because they don't tell you.

    Surveys can establish an estimate of the level of under-reporting. I'm pretty sure studies have been done on this in the past. Though I don't know where to find them.

    HamHamJ on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You could make an argument that illegal immigrant crimes are more common but are under-reported because the perpetrator and the victim are both illegal immigrants herego both the responsible party and the party who would normally report the crime would not do so.

    Which would kind of destroy the "illegal immigrants bringing crime to our community!" nonsense, because even if it were true (which is a huge leap of logic) it would be limited entirely to crime that was perpetrated by illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement of illegal immigrant crime) against illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement for unusually high levels of unreported criminal activity).

    Its not really relevant to the points under discussion at the moment.

    PotatoNinja on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You could make an argument that illegal immigrant crimes are more common but are under-reported because the perpetrator and the victim are both illegal immigrants herego both the responsible party and the party who would normally report the crime would not do so.

    Which would kind of destroy the "illegal immigrants bringing crime to our community!" nonsense, because even if it were true (which is a huge leap of logic) it would be limited entirely to crime that was perpetrated by illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement of illegal immigrant crime) against illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement for unusually high levels of unreported criminal activity).

    Its not really relevant to the points under discussion at the moment.

    It would still have a residual effect on the general quality of an area.

    PS: Also those FBI statistics only measure violent crime.

    HamHamJ on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    You could make an argument that illegal immigrant crimes are more common but are under-reported because the perpetrator and the victim are both illegal immigrants herego both the responsible party and the party who would normally report the crime would not do so.

    Which would kind of destroy the "illegal immigrants bringing crime to our community!" nonsense, because even if it were true (which is a huge leap of logic) it would be limited entirely to crime that was perpetrated by illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement of illegal immigrant crime) against illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement for unusually high levels of unreported criminal activity).

    Its not really relevant to the points under discussion at the moment.

    It would be relevant in showing that making them legal would then help the supposed real crime rate fall because people would report more crimes and hopefully more criminals would therefor be caught.

    Couscous on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    1) Sure they under-report. I'm positive they do. This is an argument for increased legalization.

    It's also an argument that the rate isn't actually as low as it seems.
    2) Nah, more competition is sufficient for driving down the cost of labor. Illegal workers drive it lower, sure (and I would really prefer that there wasn't a minimum wage at all) but compromises have to be made.

    Compromise between what and what?

    And again, it would obviously not drive it down as much. So if real wages are just barely holding even now, they would drop into the negatives under your plan.

    Well, as PotatoNinja noted, given it's basically among illegal immigrant populations it's not really bringing anything unusual to people who would otherwise be paying for the crimes.

    I guess I don't understand your point about wages. Could you please elaborate?

    Loren Michael on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    You could make an argument that illegal immigrant crimes are more common but are under-reported because the perpetrator and the victim are both illegal immigrants herego both the responsible party and the party who would normally report the crime would not do so.

    Which would kind of destroy the "illegal immigrants bringing crime to our community!" nonsense, because even if it were true (which is a huge leap of logic) it would be limited entirely to crime that was perpetrated by illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement of illegal immigrant crime) against illegal immigrants (in order to meet the requirement for unusually high levels of unreported criminal activity).

    Its not really relevant to the points under discussion at the moment.

    It would still have a residual effect on the general quality of an area.

    PS: Also those FBI statistics only measure violent crime.

    Arguably, but that's not really something that is measurable or a point of contention. "Illegal immigrants move to poor neighborhoods and underreport crimes committed against illegal immigrants therefore contributing to a generally negative social environment in the locations they congregate in!"

    Little contrived to tie that in to the rest of the thread. Also an excellent argument for legalizing more immigrants, which is why I imagine you don't see many anti-immigration posters arguing that illegal status promotes an underreporting of crimes.

    And that's all still just an assumption. We don't know that it happens, we can guess that it happens but I'm not aware of any evidence that establishes it as an actual effect. You could create a similarly convincing argument that illegal immigrants are much more likely to avoid any obviously criminal activity for fear of deportation, again a logical argument but one that doesn't have any evidence to support or deny it, so not one we should really be making a big fuss about.

    PotatoNinja on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    2) Nah, more competition is sufficient for driving down the cost of labor. Illegal workers drive it lower, sure (and I would really prefer that there wasn't a minimum wage at all) but compromises have to be made.
    Illegals have even less power with regards to wages and conditions for the same reason that they under report crimes.

    That being said, if illegals do under-report crimes that will include crimes committed against illegals, not necessarily crimes committed by illegals(which is to say it would push down all crime rates). If you then argue that illegals are more likely to commit crimes against illegals then you have to admit, if you're not an immigrant you have nothing to worry about.

    Goumindong on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    What reason is there to believe that illegal immigrants are going to be that much more likely to commit serious (such as felonies) crimes than legal immigrants who are in similar demographics? The whole illegal immigrant thing isn't that great of an indication considering that people in all demographics break laws they consider stupid all the time and don't end up committing serious crimes.

    Couscous on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    What reason is there to believe that illegal immigrants are going to be that much more likely to commit serious (such as felonies) crimes than legal immigrants who are in similar demographics? The whole illegal immigrant thing isn't that great of an indication considering that people in all demographics break laws they consider stupid all the time and don't end up committing serious crimes.

    None, I think that point was kind of glossed over in my original post. You can make an (unsupported) argument that the reported crime rate wouldn't be accurate because illegals under-report, but its not something you can prove and its not something that's extremely relevant even if you believe it to completely true.

    PotatoNinja on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    There are ways to estimate unreported crimes.

    Couscous on
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    mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Namrok wrote: »
    It's called a Sunday drive through a Manassas, VA suburb. It came up a few pages ago. I see it every time I drive through there with my own two eyes.

    I can't blame you for not believing me, I'm just some dude on the internet (and I'm shocked I haven't been called racist yet), but yeah.

    It happens.

    Maybe not everywhere, I donno. I only know what I see.

    In other words, because one neighborhood you drive through has gone to hell in a handbasket, and even you admit that you can't say whether it happens everywhere, we should take your Sunday drive (what are you, a tour guide?) as hard evidence that people are correct to be jerks about illegal immigration.

    Gee, not seeing any logical gaps there, or any reason people might question your objectivity.

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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Manassass is a city, not a neighborhood, and it really is that bad, and it's indicative of problems the region as a whole is having.

    adytum on
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    PotatoNinjaPotatoNinja Fake Gamer Goat Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    I grew up in a tiny shithole town with crazy high meth abuse rates and plenty of drunk driving, plus terribly low wages and miserable higher education rates.

    The city didn't have any significant immigrant communities, so obviously my anecdotal evidence is proof that without immigration America is doomed.

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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    If you're going to try and be snarky you should make sure that your comment has some relevance to the discussion.

    adytum on
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    mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Manassass is a city, not a neighborhood, and it really is that bad, and it's indicative of problems the region as a whole is having.

    I believe it's that bad. I don't believe that "lol go back to mexico u tardz" is the logical conclusion.

    And yes, as has been pointed out over and over again, wailing about the neighborhood going to hell in a handbasket and those funny people with their weird customs and food who don't even speak the language is not new. I have yet to hear a reason that this supposed situation is uniquely true about recent immigrants when it wasn't true (at least, not in any meaningful sense) about past waves of immigration.

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