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[immigration] and Human Rights

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  • Options
    ShushnikShushnik regular
    edited August 2010
    Thirith wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Moreover I would rather fill said Visas from people still living in their home counties, than people who have already shown a disregard for our laws.
    I have problems with this part, because it seems to imply that showing disregard for one law (immigration) is likely to mean disregard for all laws. Why would that be the case? I'd imagine that most people are selective in which laws they uphold diligently - most of what I'm talking about here are misdemeanours, admittedly, but it would seem to me that someone breaking immigration laws because they want a better life for their family isn't automatically a worse criminal than someone who, say, breaks smoking laws because, damn it, he needs a cigarette!

    Are you really equating illegal entry with violating smoking laws?

    This is why some of us want to pull out our hair, because you don't seem to get that not every person that crosses that border is the salt of the earth paragon that keeps getting brought up. You want to be able to vet the people who are coming in so you're not getting a child molester who happens to have TB.

    It is a rather silly comparison, but on the other hand both situations carry similar consequences to the offenders.

    I think we all agree that the current system isn't working for anyone. It doesn't work for the good people of other countries that want to become part of our culture and share the opportunity. It doesn't work to protect the citizens from the immigrants that are dangerous and should be excluded from immigration. It doesn't work to put money in the system from the labor of these immigrants.

    The reason it doesn't work is because neither party has any interest in making it work. They use the broken status of the system as a rallying point every two years to thump on each other about how it would be great if we could do something, if only the other party didn't stand in the way. The two party system is playing us, and we sit around jackjawing about brown people instead of finding candidates that seek solutions. And who's fault is that?

    Shushnik on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Shushnik wrote: »
    It is a rather silly comparison, but on the other hand both situations carry similar consequences to the offenders.

    You can be arrested and deported for smoking in a non-smoking zone?

    HamHamJ on
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    ShushnikShushnik regular
    edited August 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Shushnik wrote: »
    It is a rather silly comparison, but on the other hand both situations carry similar consequences to the offenders.

    You can be arrested and deported for smoking in a non-smoking zone?

    I think in California they're allowed to beat you with sticks if you smoke in a non-smoking zone, but I may be wrong...

    Shushnik on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Detharin wrote: »

    1) More burden is placed on what, how and why?

    2) I did answer your question.

    3) People won't come here if they aren't wanted. Immigrants are responsive to the job market, as the numbers of immigrants (legal and illegal) ebb and flow with said market.

    1. Our social safety nets, illegal immigrants made citizens would now qualify for them.

    2. You keep ignoring the fact that what illegal immigrants offer is that the are exploitable. If they were not they would be fired in a second. Telling your employer they need to now pay you a legal wage, and document that they need you would quickly result in that firing. Moreover why should we desire importing immigrants to do jobs that we already have people here willing to do the job for legal wages? Ideally we would only import labor for jobs we have verified we cannot find people to do locally.

    1) I'm not talking about full citizenship. Why are you talking about that? A visa for many, citizenship for some.

    2) Exploitability is one factor that illegal immigrants offer. Willingness to work, and ability to be located where they are needed is another. You have to show that this is the only factor employers care about before I buy any stories about them being "fired immediately".

    Loren Michael on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Detharin wrote: »

    I really could care less if I offend anyone. At the end of the day I either choose to screw the poor, or choose to screw non-citizens.

    Why do you care about the poor?

    Julius on
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    ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    This is why some of us want to pull out our hair, because you don't seem to get that not every person that crosses that border is the salt of the earth paragon that keeps getting brought up. You want to be able to vet the people who are coming in so you're not getting a child molester who happens to have TB.
    Nor is every illegal immigrant a drug-selling gangbanger. Nor is every legal immigrant a paragon of legal behaviour. Is vetting something that works well with the current system? It wouldn't seem to be.

    Thirith on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    This is why some of us want to pull out our hair, because you don't seem to get that not every person that crosses that border is the salt of the earth paragon that keeps getting brought up. You want to be able to vet the people who are coming in so you're not getting a child molester who happens to have TB.

    This is actually a good point. We should be vetting people for security reasons. The best way to vet people would be mass legalization. If you provide incentive for people to use the proper channels, they're a little more likely to do so. Variants on the "you'll never get in" regime just encourage people to work around said regime.

    Loren Michael on
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    fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell #BLMRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    to give folks an idea of how long the legal process takes for Mexican nationals to come to the U.S., the current visa bulletin has a good picture.

    current wait for a green card Mexican nationals who are unmarried sons or daughters of U.S. Citizens is nearly TWENTY YEARS.

    for Mexican spouses and children (under 21) of permanent residents (green card holders) already in the U.S., the wait is much less, around 2 years. but this presumes that one parent is already in the U.S. and has somehow gotten a green card.

    unmarried sons and daughters of permanent residents (who are older than 21) also have to wait nearly twenty years. same for siblings of adult U.S. Citizens.

    when your average wait time to get a green card is TWENTY years, why the hell would you even bother with the legal way?

    this is why comprehensive immigration reform has to occur. the entire system needs to be revamped to study the huge backlog in numbers, examine the American labor force and its reliance on workers from abroad, and also provide better means to secure the internation border.

    TWENTY YEARS. cripes.

    fightinfilipino on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    An old thing: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/14/AR2006091401179.html

    We've already got a law on the books that we still haven't finished implementing. Why aren't we working toward refining both the law and its implementation rather than trying to create some new solution to the mess we're trying to deal with now? The problem is the same, but it's bigger.

    MKR on
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