I've had an off-night on my warrior, otherwise I have almost no trouble with threat. Admittedly this may have a lot to do with judicious applications of Vigilance and the buffed Revenge.
"The Insane" is probably the most accurately named title. The least accurate is probably "The Patient".
Last night I ran a few heroics to get enough triumph badges to get the heirloom bow for my baby warrior.
Spoilered for looong.
n had one of the most impatient mages I've ever seen. And also a terrible and somewhat impatient healer. He may have also had a thing against rogues.
In the first room, with all the snakes, after the first pack the healer says "go ahead and chain pull. I got you."
I'm slow in this room because I can barely see anything from the nameplates (I really wish they'd make those snakes critters instead of mobs so I don't have to turn off nameplates for that one location) and the mage goes and pulls the third group so I have to pick them up off with him without DnD and only a few runes available.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we kill the boss. DPS is slooooow.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we move on to the next room. I pick up the first pack. Once I have good threat on them I grab the second set of snakes and the wandering trolls. Then the mage blinks over the end and arcane barrages the last group. Again, while I don't have DnD or any runes up. I barely managed to pull those dudes off of everybody.
Of course, the rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and at this point I actually watch and see that the rogue recieves no further attention from him. I wait a few seconds, and figure the pally is doing something else and will pick it up later. I run to the next room, drop a DnD in the center and pick up most everything. The mage blinks across the group, toss a barrage at the boss to make him merge, then he runs down that side hallway as the trash is dying to pull that construct that is completely skippable. Unfortunately the pally stunned it so the mage didn't die, cause I didn't feel like taunting off his ass anymore.
Oh and the rogue died.
At this point he quits group, we are given another rogue and we down the boss.
We move on, hop over the water, I pull the next group, the mage pulls group of dudes fighting in front of moorabi, but for the only time in the whole run he actually did so in a way that got them in my dnd and pestilence so I got aggro easily. DPS on moorabi is slow.
And the new rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and doesn't heal him, I head down the hallway to Eck, when the mage whispers me "Dude, fuck you, not this guy." and sits down at moorabi's corpse. So now, just to spite the dick who's been making this run a pain I keep on going with renewed vigor. We down Eck, even slower since we're down a dps. We go to the bridge.
The rogue dies on the first trash pack.
The pally resses him and at this point I ask him if he has something against rogues. He claims he's trying a new UI which makes it hard to see him. I don't buy it, but figure we're 3 pulls from the boss might as well keep on trucking. The rogue is sitting at 23 hp.
The mage pulls rhino at the top of the stairs, and to my dismay the charge + fall damage does not quite kill him. I have to taunt when the shammy picks up aggro when the mage iceblocked. I pull both rhinos at the end in an effort to end it sooner.
And the rogue dies from poison spears.
The mage then pulls Gal'darah while the pally is ressing the rogue and just barely survives long enough to invis. He also gets impaled, and despite me blowing all my CDs, the pally keeps him up. No trouble seeing him apparently. They weren't even from the same server, so I don't know what the hell was up.
The mage and pally then win all the boss loots.
Also the rogue died from not getting healed after getting charged.
"The Insane" is probably the most accurately named title. The least accurate is probably "The Patient".
Last night I ran a few heroics to get enough triumph badges to get the heirloom bow for my baby warrior.
Spoilered for looong.
n had one of the most impatient mages I've ever seen. And also a terrible and somewhat impatient healer. He may have also had a thing against rogues.
In the first room, with all the snakes, after the first pack the healer says "go ahead and chain pull. I got you."
I'm slow in this room because I can barely see anything from the nameplates (I really wish they'd make those snakes critters instead of mobs so I don't have to turn off nameplates for that one location) and the mage goes and pulls the third group so I have to pick them up off with him without DnD and only a few runes available.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we kill the boss. DPS is slooooow.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we move on to the next room. I pick up the first pack. Once I have good threat on them I grab the second set of snakes and the wandering trolls. Then the mage blinks over the end and arcane barrages the last group. Again, while I don't have DnD or any runes up. I barely managed to pull those dudes off of everybody.
Of course, the rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and at this point I actually watch and see that the rogue recieves no further attention from him. I wait a few seconds, and figure the pally is doing something else and will pick it up later. I run to the next room, drop a DnD in the center and pick up most everything. The mage blinks across the group, toss a barrage at the boss to make him merge, then he runs down that side hallway as the trash is dying to pull that construct that is completely skippable. Unfortunately the pally stunned it so the mage didn't die, cause I didn't feel like taunting off his ass anymore.
Oh and the rogue died.
At this point he quits group, we are given another rogue and we down the boss.
We move on, hop over the water, I pull the next group, the mage pulls group of dudes fighting in front of moorabi, but for the only time in the whole run he actually did so in a way that got them in my dnd and pestilence so I got aggro easily. DPS on moorabi is slow.
And the new rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and doesn't heal him, I head down the hallway to Eck, when the mage whispers me "Dude, fuck you, not this guy." and sits down at moorabi's corpse. So now, just to spite the dick who's been making this run a pain I keep on going with renewed vigor. We down Eck, even slower since we're down a dps. We go to the bridge.
The rogue dies on the first trash pack.
The pally resses him and at this point I ask him if he has something against rogues. He claims he's trying a new UI which makes it hard to see him. I don't buy it, but figure we're 3 pulls from the boss might as well keep on trucking. The rogue is sitting at 23 hp.
The mage pulls rhino at the top of the stairs, and to my dismay the charge + fall damage does not quite kill him. I have to taunt when the shammy picks up aggro when the mage iceblocked. I pull both rhinos at the end in an effort to end it sooner.
And the rogue dies from poison spears.
The mage then pulls Gal'darah while the pally is ressing the rogue and just barely survives long enough to invis. He also gets impaled, and despite me blowing all my CDs, the pally keeps him up. No trouble seeing him apparently. They weren't even from the same server, so I don't know what the hell was up.
The mage and pally then win all the boss loots.
Also the rogue died from not getting healed after getting charged.
That's pretty funny. Mainly because I wasn't there! The mage sounds like an utter silly goose, and the pally sounds like an asshole. I don't think I've ever simply not healed someone because I hated their class. I might "accidentally" leave someone at half health if they continually pull crap, but that's it.
Also last night I did H HoS (went great, no one died and it was a very fast run) and at the end, our spriest says "lol fuck you guys" and ninjas the epic drop. We were all like "mmmkay boy that ninja really hurt, ouch ouch ouch I will miss that 10g". I just don't get people sometimes...
"The Insane" is probably the most accurately named title. The least accurate is probably "The Patient".
Last night I ran a few heroics to get enough triumph badges to get the heirloom bow for my baby warrior.
Spoilered for looong.
n had one of the most impatient mages I've ever seen. And also a terrible and somewhat impatient healer. He may have also had a thing against rogues.
In the first room, with all the snakes, after the first pack the healer says "go ahead and chain pull. I got you."
I'm slow in this room because I can barely see anything from the nameplates (I really wish they'd make those snakes critters instead of mobs so I don't have to turn off nameplates for that one location) and the mage goes and pulls the third group so I have to pick them up off with him without DnD and only a few runes available.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we kill the boss. DPS is slooooow.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we move on to the next room. I pick up the first pack. Once I have good threat on them I grab the second set of snakes and the wandering trolls. Then the mage blinks over the end and arcane barrages the last group. Again, while I don't have DnD or any runes up. I barely managed to pull those dudes off of everybody.
Of course, the rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and at this point I actually watch and see that the rogue recieves no further attention from him. I wait a few seconds, and figure the pally is doing something else and will pick it up later. I run to the next room, drop a DnD in the center and pick up most everything. The mage blinks across the group, toss a barrage at the boss to make him merge, then he runs down that side hallway as the trash is dying to pull that construct that is completely skippable. Unfortunately the pally stunned it so the mage didn't die, cause I didn't feel like taunting off his ass anymore.
Oh and the rogue died.
At this point he quits group, we are given another rogue and we down the boss.
We move on, hop over the water, I pull the next group, the mage pulls group of dudes fighting in front of moorabi, but for the only time in the whole run he actually did so in a way that got them in my dnd and pestilence so I got aggro easily. DPS on moorabi is slow.
And the new rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and doesn't heal him, I head down the hallway to Eck, when the mage whispers me "Dude, fuck you, not this guy." and sits down at moorabi's corpse. So now, just to spite the dick who's been making this run a pain I keep on going with renewed vigor. We down Eck, even slower since we're down a dps. We go to the bridge.
The rogue dies on the first trash pack.
The pally resses him and at this point I ask him if he has something against rogues. He claims he's trying a new UI which makes it hard to see him. I don't buy it, but figure we're 3 pulls from the boss might as well keep on trucking. The rogue is sitting at 23 hp.
The mage pulls rhino at the top of the stairs, and to my dismay the charge + fall damage does not quite kill him. I have to taunt when the shammy picks up aggro when the mage iceblocked. I pull both rhinos at the end in an effort to end it sooner.
And the rogue dies from poison spears.
The mage then pulls Gal'darah while the pally is ressing the rogue and just barely survives long enough to invis. He also gets impaled, and despite me blowing all my CDs, the pally keeps him up. No trouble seeing him apparently. They weren't even from the same server, so I don't know what the hell was up.
The mage and pally then win all the boss loots.
Also the rogue died from not getting healed after getting charged.
I'm assuming both were put on ignore? Why wasn't a votekick initiated on the mage?
The only way you can't out-threat your Blood DK OT is if he's spamming Icy Touch; which ties in nicely with you saying he's horrible. Tell him to stop doing that and you'll be able to keep threat over him no problem... if you still can't, then the problem lies in either a heavy gear disparity, or a skill disparity.
He should only be spamming Icy Touch if he's main-tanking and needs a healthy lead versus humongous DPS that refuse to use their threat drops and MDs/ToTs, or if he's say, taking his turn on Deathwhisper, since the debuff can be fought off a bit longer with the spam.
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
Guys, regarding all the threat talk, the Warrior and DK threat buffs only put them in line with Pallies. Protadins still have incredible single target threat, especially burst threat (popping wings on a pull alone is a ridiculous ability to have...).
If you have threat trouble as a Protadin you're doing something sub-optimally.
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
Ok.
Also, please to explain and get me up to speed on everything that's happened in WoW in the past four years.
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
If you buy Wrath right now, you may have to pay for a BC key somehow, but the Wrath discs contain all vanilla/BC/Wrath data. You'll only need to download post-3.0 patches, which speeds up the process TREMENDOUSLY. Also Wrath boxes are one DVD (as opposed to BC's 4 discs) which means you don't have to worry about switching discs during the install.
I would highly recommend buying the Wrath DVD and not bothering to pick up the physical BC package - just upgrade online through your account management and don't click the button where it says "install BC now".
Also re: the past four years - do you want storyline or game mechanics info or...?
What class do you play, or want to play? We can help you out with class details, or if you're not sure, we can give you information on each class to help you choose - just let us know stuff like whether your prefer melee or ranged, dps/heals/tank, etc.
Spacemilk on
0
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
No, buy BC or BC and WotLK, install from either disk. Either way everything will be installed and you'll need to patch some, but not much. That's assuming that the BC disk is a newer printing, but if you buy it in a store it should be.
RE: Last four years, every single character on horde side is a female blood elf.
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
If you buy Wrath right now, you may have to pay for a BC key somehow, but the Wrath discs contain all vanilla/BC/Wrath data. You'll only need to download post-3.0 patches, which speeds up the process TREMENDOUSLY. Also Wrath boxes are one DVD (as opposed to BC's 4 discs) which means you don't have to worry about switching discs during the install.
I would highly recommend buying the Wrath DVD and not bothering to pick up the physical BC package - just upgrade online through your account management and don't click the button where it says "install BC now".
Quick question. I haven't played WoW in a long time. All I have is the version 1.0 discs.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
Ok.
Also, please to explain and get me up to speed on everything that's happened in WoW in the past four years.
Guys, regarding all the threat talk, the Warrior and DK threat buffs only put them in line with Pallies. Protadins still have incredible single target threat, especially burst threat (popping wings on a pull alone is a ridiculous ability to have...).
If you have threat trouble as a Protadin you're doing something sub-optimally.
The buff to DKs wasn't to increase their overall threat, it was to give them a quick high threat move ala Shield Slam to allow them to pick up adds quicker (think Yogg phase 3).
The Revenge buff was due to Warriors skipping it after the Devastate buff. Devastate was buffed to compensate for the nerf to Shield Slam.
The last time Pally threat was specifically addressed in relation to the other tanks, they had nerfed Righteous Fury from 90% to 80%.
Guys, regarding all the threat talk, the Warrior and DK threat buffs only put them in line with Pallies. Protadins still have incredible single target threat, especially burst threat (popping wings on a pull alone is a ridiculous ability to have...).
If you have threat trouble as a Protadin you're doing something sub-optimally.
The buff to DKs wasn't to increase their overall threat, it was to give them a quick high threat move ala Shield Slam to allow them to pick up adds quicker (think Yogg phase 3).
The Revenge buff was due to Warriors skipping it after the Devastate buff. Devastate was buffed to compensate for the nerf to Shield Slam.
The last time Pally threat was specifically addressed in relation to the other tanks, they had nerfed Righteous Fury from 90% to 80%.
Also, the DK threat is now idiotically high.
If you're the MT as a prot pally and the DK is an OT they have to now constantly control their threat or they will pull off you, no questions. Pallies simply can't even get remotely close to a DK on single target threat now. If a DK has threat you plain cannot ever get it back without a taunt, you will constantly fall in overall threat vs them and even with a perfect rotation you will never make ground.
DK's needed a buff for sure but it was simply overboard. Added to the fact that while Paladins have perfectly fine AoE threat still, their single target threat wasn't ever anything amazing, but it was good enough. Now they're easily last in tanking threat for single targets and Blizzard doesn't seem to give two shits. In fact if anything we'll just see nerfs to AoE threat to bring us further down.
Regardless of the DK need for burst threat or a Warrior need for more DPS while tanking (and that whole chain of patches dealt with increasing PvE Prot damage at the expense of PvP Prot damage) the result was an increase in overall threat. When my Icy Touch went from ~2k threat to ~15,000 threat that's ~650 TPS for free.
Paladin TPS is still ridiculous and signficantly easier to gear for, 10 expertise from a glyph is just stupid.
Edit:
If you're the MT as a prot pally and the DK is an OT they have to now constantly control their threat or they will pull off you, no questions. Pallies simply can't even get remotely close to a DK on single target threat now. If a DK has threat you plain cannot ever get it back without a taunt, you will constantly fall in overall threat vs them and even with a perfect rotation you will never make ground.
I can, as a DK tank, tell you right now that this is bullshit unless that Pally MT is terrible. When not actively tanking (i.e. parrying and dodging attacks) DK threat drops to ABYSMAL levels because we cannot Rune Strike, and RS is our TPS crutch.
Icy Touch does the same threat as Shield of the Righteous or Shield Slam, and we can use it as (or less, in the case of SS) often if we "spam" it. Anyway spamming it is stupid since it's needless TPS at the expense of useful DPS.
Guys, regarding all the threat talk, the Warrior and DK threat buffs only put them in line with Pallies. Protadins still have incredible single target threat, especially burst threat (popping wings on a pull alone is a ridiculous ability to have...).
If you have threat trouble as a Protadin you're doing something sub-optimally.
The buff to DKs wasn't to increase their overall threat, it was to give them a quick high threat move ala Shield Slam to allow them to pick up adds quicker (think Yogg phase 3).
The Revenge buff was due to Warriors skipping it after the Devastate buff. Devastate was buffed to compensate for the nerf to Shield Slam.
The last time Pally threat was specifically addressed in relation to the other tanks, they had nerfed Righteous Fury from 90% to 80%.
Also, the DK threat is now idiotically high.
If you're the MT as a prot pally and the DK is an OT they have to now constantly control their threat or they will pull off you, no questions. Pallies simply can't even get remotely close to a DK on single target threat now. If a DK has threat you plain cannot ever get it back without a taunt, you will constantly fall in overall threat vs them and even with a perfect rotation you will never make ground.
DK's needed a buff for sure but it was simply overboard. Added to the fact that while Paladins have perfectly fine AoE threat still, their single target threat wasn't ever anything amazing, but it was good enough. Now they're easily last in tanking threat for single targets and Blizzard doesn't seem to give two shits. In fact if anything we'll just see nerfs to AoE threat to bring us further down.
This isn't just bitching, this is reality.
I don't have any trouble off tanking. I just wait till the dude has a threat lead before hitting Icy touch, and maintain the diseases with pestilence. With no rune striking happening I'm not competitive.
I'm not going to disagree with the glyph. Pallies have been wondering for a while now when that glyph was going to get hit with the nerf stick.
Pallies have also been seeing several backdoor changes to abilities. Shield of the Righteous, for example, was stealth-changed during Ulduar (I think. It wasn't Naxx or ICC for certain), so that it used the melee attack table. Prior to then it was hit/crit/miss.
In Naxx, pallies could pretty much ignore gearing for hit and expertise, and as time went on enough changes were put in so that if you ignore hit and expertise, it will hurt you. The only stat I'm not at the softcap now is hit, and that's because I like using Last Word (with Accuracy, I'm at around 7% hit).
Regardless, arguing that blood DKs which are consistantly hitting 10-11k threat single target are equal to paladins hitting maybe 9k is silly.
Regardless of the DK need for burst threat or a Warrior need for more DPS while tanking (and that whole chain of patches dealt with increasing PvE Prot damage at the expense of PvP Prot damage) the result was an increase in overall threat. When my Icy Touch went from ~2k threat to ~15,000 threat that's ~650 TPS for free.
Paladin TPS is still ridiculous and signficantly easier to gear for, 10 expertise from a glyph is just stupid.
Edit:
If you're the MT as a prot pally and the DK is an OT they have to now constantly control their threat or they will pull off you, no questions. Pallies simply can't even get remotely close to a DK on single target threat now. If a DK has threat you plain cannot ever get it back without a taunt, you will constantly fall in overall threat vs them and even with a perfect rotation you will never make ground.
I can, as a DK tank, tell you right now that this is bullshit unless that Pally MT is terrible. When not actively tanking (i.e. parrying and dodging attacks) DK threat drops to ABYSMAL levels because we cannot Rune Strike, and RS is our TPS crutch.
Icy Touch does the same threat as Shield of the Righteous or Shield Slam, and we can use it as (or less, in the case of SS) often if we "spam" it. Anyway spamming it is stupid since it's needless TPS at the expense of useful DPS.
Icy Touch does so much more threat than a shield of the Righteous that your comment is completely absurd and patently false.
It is abundantly clear that you've never actually tanked as a paladin and are just one of the "abloo abloo paladins are OP" folks who cant hold threat on worthless trash and thinks that your class is terrible because of it.
I think most paladins of any knowledge would trade AoE threat for single target threat in a heartbeat because it's our #1 weakness in raids, particularly in ICC.
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice. And prior to ICC threat has never really been an issue. But now that dps is reaching insane heights the sheer weakness of Paladin single target threat is abundantly clear to everyone.
But then people like you just cry because you had issue before and get all bent out of shape over shit like expertise on a glyph and think that paladins are still overpowered when they're lagging behind every other tank now in threat that is actually meaningful.
Unfortunately blizzard seems to be focused on the same shit you are and feels like "zomg trash threat" is all that matters and jacks everyone else up but leaves paladins in the gutter for threat.
I mean what they did with IT isn't too, too bad, it was a a little higher than it should've been.
However, recently, I've been having threat issues completely. It wouldn't surprise me if they performed a threat nerf during the last patch and it made it through. I ran a heroic with someone the other day that I've never had issues with and all of a sudden they're building almost 3 times as much threat as I usually do.
I reapplied RF and it helped for all of 30 minutes then the issues came back. I reapplied again and there was no change this time.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Icy Touch does so much more threat than a shield of the Righteous that your comment is completely absurd and patently false.
It is abundantly clear that you've never actually tanked as a paladin and are just one of the "abloo abloo paladins are OP" folks who cant hold threat on worthless trash and thinks that your class is terrible because of it.
I think most paladins of any knowledge would trade AoE threat for single target threat in a heartbeat because it's our #1 weakness in raids, particularly in ICC.
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice. And prior to ICC threat has never really been an issue. But now that dps is reaching insane heights the sheer weakness of Paladin single target threat is abundantly clear to everyone.
But then people like you just cry because you had issue before and get all bent out of shape over shit like expertise on a glyph and think that paladins are still overpowered when they're lagging behind every other tank now in threat that is actually meaningful.
Unfortunately blizzard seems to be focused on the same shit you are and feels like "zomg trash threat" is all that matters and jacks everyone else up but leaves paladins in the gutter for threat.
You've got to be kidding me, this level of ignorance is astounding, and for the record, I have a Prot Pally too.
Two major points that are just insane:
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice
Emphasis mine. And no, just, no. Paladins have become a very popular MT because Argent Defender is the most broken tanking talent in the game. Before they nerfed your stamina modifiers you also had incredible EH with high "defensive stance" equivalent DR and a consistent block (without Icecrown Radiance a Paladin blocks 100% of the time, effectively adding his block value straight to his HP).
So when guilds were doing ToC and ToGC Pallies became the dominant tank not because of their AoE threat (what was there to even AoE?) but because they were by far the most survivable tank, with Cheat Death (!), the DR component of AD, incredible EH, and all the various prot tricks like Raid Wall, Bubble out status effects, etc.
Icy Touch does so much more threat than a shield of the Righteous that your comment is completely absurd and patently false.
For a Blood Tank Icy Touch will produce ~15k threat (hits for like 1.1k in a raid with a 14x modifier) and considering the damage output by SotR and it's 2.574x threat modifier since it's holy I trust you can input your own SotR numbers and see that IT'S SIMILAR THREAT. Oh except you use SotR once every 6 seconds and I use IT once every 20 seconds.
I've seen reports that sometimes gear is not calculating correctly. The only way (supposedly) to fix it is to take off all pieces of the gear and then put the pieces back on one by one.
The paper doll information appears correct, it's how the numbers are being reported on the back end.
We have all three Plate tanks in our 25-man ICC, and we have no problems with any of this other than when our trigger-happy Mages or Hunters blow their load right at the beginning and MDs/ToTs need to go on say, the ranged tank for Blood Princes.
I did have to work my ass off before the IT buff at snap threat. And by work my ass off I mean, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Dark Command and pray for a couple of Rune Strike procs right off the bat, or I'd be fucked without a Misdirect or Tricks of the Trade. The Icy Touch buff fixed that particular problem, and gave us DK tanks a much needed recourse versus chain-casting mobs, off-tanking or Rune Strike refusing to pop up. (I once went a full 30 seconds without seeing a single Rune Strike.)
probably related... I jumped into a VOA 10 pug last night and ended up stripping aggro from not 1 but 2 pally tanks not once, not twice, but three times... ended up dead all three times :-( and this included the application of Salvation and not using Wings.
Either the tanks were just that terrible, or something did happen.
I've seen reports that sometimes gear is not calculating correctly. The only way (supposedly) to fix it is to take off all pieces of the gear and then put the pieces back on one by one.
The paper doll information appears correct, it's how the numbers are being reported on the back end.
EDIT: This is to bowen.
That would explain why the gear score on some progress sites for a whole slew of paladin tanks is suddenly "WHAT THE FUCK WHY DO YOU EVEN HAVE ICC ACHIEVEMENTS HOLY SHIT"
I checked out wowranked or whatever and my GS went from purple to green after a refresh. Didn't really register as an "eh it's borked" though.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Emphasis mine. And no, just, no. Paladins have become a very popular MT because Argent Defender is the most broken tanking talent in the game. Before they nerfed your stamina modifiers you also had incredible EH with high "defensive stance" equivalent DR and a consistent block (without Icecrown Radiance a Paladin blocks 100% of the time, effectively adding his block value straight to his HP).
So when guilds were doing ToC and ToGC Pallies became the dominant tank not because of their AoE threat (what was there to even AoE?) but because they were by far the most survivable tank, with Cheat Death (!), the DR component of AD, incredible EH, and all the various prot tricks like Raid Wall, Bubble out status effects, etc.
To be fair, the big reasons Pallies were popular tanks in TOGC/TOC were:
1. Ardent Defender, especially on Gormok
2. The way that the adds for Anub were dealt with perfectly by paladins (shield block interaction with the debuff + holy wrath for aoe stun to stop their shadow step ability).
Raidwall and Bubbling out of status effects were up there, but holy pallies and ret pallies could and did handle those jobs too.
Why is it we were able to track this down faster than blizzard? I haven't even seen mention of this on any news sites.
It's not common, and to be honest a lot of people who have this problem either wouldn't realize it or have other issues that would mask it.
The only reason I knew of this was that I went over to the maintankadin site and started looking up threat issues and this was mentioned as a probable fix.
I don't really care what your TPS is, although I posit that right now it isn't lacking and it's silly to complain about other tanks being buffed slightly when you were the kings of TPS for most of the expansion.
Argent Defender is ridiculously powerful, trading it for Last Stand would be very foolish. AD is more EH than Last Stand at all times. It does what Last Stand does 24/7 and as a free bonus is also an always-on Guardian Spirit.
We have all three Plate tanks in our 25-man ICC, and we have no problems with any of this other than when our trigger-happy Mages or Hunters blow their load right at the beginning and MDs/ToTs need to go on say, the ranged tank for Blood Princes.
I did have to work my ass off before the IT buff at snap threat. And by work my ass off I mean, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Dark Command and pray for a couple of Rune Strike procs right off the bat, or I'd be fucked without a Misdirect or Tricks of the Trade. The Icy Touch buff fixed that particular problem, and gave us DK tanks a much needed recourse versus chain-casting mobs, off-tanking or Rune Strike refusing to pop up. (I once went a full 30 seconds without seeing a single Rune Strike.)
Yeah, DKs have always had too much ramp up time and without the IT change, it was REALLY starting to fuck with our threat.
And Rune Strike should be eliminated from the game and never return.
Oh look, a Vanilla horde player who still bawwwws about Paladins. I figured most of you went off and retired to some community home outside Ratchet where you can reminisce about the good old days of holding off a hundred Alliance at an Arathi Basin flag solo with nothing but a Sentry Totem, enough mana for a single Frost Shock, and pure grit. And then when some Blood Elf Paladin comes running by, you scowl, shake your mace at them, and yell "You'll get yours someday, punk!"
I kid.
Sort of.
ha, that's pretty much it. The only class I couldn't annhilate on my shaman, would burn the fuckers down twice and scream in frustration as they bubble hearthed. When we got pallies I cried a little then made a female named Hearthmaul.
XArchangelX on
Eve Online is a terrible game, but I used to play, for the lulz! Steam
Only the strong can help the weak.
0
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
I don't really care what your TPS is, although I posit that right now it isn't lacking and it's silly to complain about other tanks being buffed slightly when you were the kings of TPS for most of the expansion.
Argent Defender is ridiculously powerful, trading it for Last Stand would be very foolish. AD is more EH than Last Stand at all times. It does what Last Stand does 24/7 and as a free bonus is also an always-on Guardian Spirit.
Well, if it would stop bitching like what you're doing I'd be more than happy to trade it in. Especially if the side effect is people would stop justifying nerfs to my threat because "you guys were once just absolutly amazing and this nerf is justified because of it!"
Nerfing my threat now, when it's not even really that amazing when you consider I can build equal threat on a lesser geared DK, or a similar geared warrior -- fuck bears because I've never leveled one to 80, is pants-on-head retarded.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I can't say a lot in general about tank threat, except:
- Our prot paladin's threat is terrible, but he is a terrible player, so that doesn't help.
- Our tanking DK has absurdly good threat now. (I'm not going to dispute that DKs needed some help, but Blizzard seems to have a habit of over compensating.)
- I've had generaly worse luck with prot paladins in random dungeons over the last couple months, but the random skill of players in there varies by a lot.
- Our Warriors feel fine.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Whats nerfs to your threat? They changed RF to 80% from 90% a long time ago. No one cares about touching your single target threat. Your AoE threat (and mine, and Ferals', and even Warriors') are all getting nerfed because that's the new Cata design philosophy.
People won't stop bitching about AD because it's Cheat Death on a tank. Where another tank would have died and likely wiped the raid, the Paladin gets a debuff for a couple minutes. It still boggles my mind how that made it live, at this point they're probably just waiting for Cataclysm to make any real changes to anything.
Whats nerfs to your threat? They changed RF to 80% from 90% a long time ago. No one cares about touching your single target threat. Your AoE threat (and mine, and Ferals', and even Warriors') are all getting nerfed because that's the new Cata design philosophy.
People won't stop bitching about AD because it's Cheat Death on a tank. Where another tank would have died and likely wiped the raid, the Paladin gets a debuff for a couple minutes. It still boggles my mind how that made it live, at this point they're probably just waiting for Cataclysm to make any real changes to anything.
Because the devs said they don't want paladins to be warriors with heals. They want a little bit of difference between them, so if our cooldown is passive, I can see the reason not that I agree.
My comment about my threat was from the discussion that's been happening in regards to what I had commented on. Not on the patch notes, which are more often than not, missing a lot.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Whats nerfs to your threat? They changed RF to 80% from 90% a long time ago. No one cares about touching your single target threat. Your AoE threat (and mine, and Ferals', and even Warriors') are all getting nerfed because that's the new Cata design philosophy.
People won't stop bitching about AD because it's Cheat Death on a tank. Where another tank would have died and likely wiped the raid, the Paladin gets a debuff for a couple minutes. It still boggles my mind how that made it live, at this point they're probably just waiting for Cataclysm to make any real changes to anything.
There's that nerf, as well as changing some of our abilities to start using the melee hit table (see my previous comment about Shield of the Righteous).
I'm also certain that some paladins experienced a threat nerf from the change to Touched By The Light, and again when they made Vindication a must have talent for tanking (to get it, you had to take points out of conviction).
And to be fair, a lot of paladins are still surprised that current AD made it live to begin with.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm glad they nerfed some of our abilities. They were needed. Though, like I've been saying, the dev team is toked out of their mind half the time in compensating and interpreting numbers.
As if that was a shock. How many times have they overcompensated because they misunderstood what was going on?
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Last night I ran a few heroics to get enough triumph badges to get the heirloom bow for my baby warrior.
Spoilered for looong.
In the first room, with all the snakes, after the first pack the healer says "go ahead and chain pull. I got you."
I'm slow in this room because I can barely see anything from the nameplates (I really wish they'd make those snakes critters instead of mobs so I don't have to turn off nameplates for that one location) and the mage goes and pulls the third group so I have to pick them up off with him without DnD and only a few runes available.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we kill the boss. DPS is slooooow.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we move on to the next room. I pick up the first pack. Once I have good threat on them I grab the second set of snakes and the wandering trolls. Then the mage blinks over the end and arcane barrages the last group. Again, while I don't have DnD or any runes up. I barely managed to pull those dudes off of everybody.
Of course, the rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and at this point I actually watch and see that the rogue recieves no further attention from him. I wait a few seconds, and figure the pally is doing something else and will pick it up later. I run to the next room, drop a DnD in the center and pick up most everything. The mage blinks across the group, toss a barrage at the boss to make him merge, then he runs down that side hallway as the trash is dying to pull that construct that is completely skippable. Unfortunately the pally stunned it so the mage didn't die, cause I didn't feel like taunting off his ass anymore.
Oh and the rogue died.
At this point he quits group, we are given another rogue and we down the boss.
We move on, hop over the water, I pull the next group, the mage pulls group of dudes fighting in front of moorabi, but for the only time in the whole run he actually did so in a way that got them in my dnd and pestilence so I got aggro easily. DPS on moorabi is slow.
And the new rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and doesn't heal him, I head down the hallway to Eck, when the mage whispers me "Dude, fuck you, not this guy." and sits down at moorabi's corpse. So now, just to spite the dick who's been making this run a pain I keep on going with renewed vigor. We down Eck, even slower since we're down a dps. We go to the bridge.
The rogue dies on the first trash pack.
The pally resses him and at this point I ask him if he has something against rogues. He claims he's trying a new UI which makes it hard to see him. I don't buy it, but figure we're 3 pulls from the boss might as well keep on trucking. The rogue is sitting at 23 hp.
The mage pulls rhino at the top of the stairs, and to my dismay the charge + fall damage does not quite kill him. I have to taunt when the shammy picks up aggro when the mage iceblocked. I pull both rhinos at the end in an effort to end it sooner.
And the rogue dies from poison spears.
The mage then pulls Gal'darah while the pally is ressing the rogue and just barely survives long enough to invis. He also gets impaled, and despite me blowing all my CDs, the pally keeps him up. No trouble seeing him apparently. They weren't even from the same server, so I don't know what the hell was up.
The mage and pally then win all the boss loots.
Also the rogue died from not getting healed after getting charged.
Also last night I did H HoS (went great, no one died and it was a very fast run) and at the end, our spriest says "lol fuck you guys" and ninjas the epic drop. We were all like "mmmkay boy that ninja really hurt, ouch ouch ouch I will miss that 10g". I just don't get people sometimes...
I'm assuming both were put on ignore? Why wasn't a votekick initiated on the mage?
He should only be spamming Icy Touch if he's main-tanking and needs a healthy lead versus humongous DPS that refuse to use their threat drops and MDs/ToTs, or if he's say, taking his turn on Deathwhisper, since the debuff can be fought off a bit longer with the spam.
If I want to get up to speed, I'd first install version 1.0, then buy Burning Crusade and probably buy WotLK. My question is, in doing that, would I need to download a bunch of patches? Would it make me patch to a certain version before it would let me install BC. And then patch again before I could install Wrath?
I'm hoping to avoid downloading gigs worth of stuff.
If you have threat trouble as a Protadin you're doing something sub-optimally.
I'm not too sure about this, since it's been a while, but I think you can install vanilla WoW, followed straight by TBC, followed straight by WotLK. Then you can patch. It will still be pretty big, since they added a lot of content from the second expansion's launch to the current client, but will probably be done in a day.
Ok.
Also, please to explain and get me up to speed on everything that's happened in WoW in the past four years.
I would highly recommend buying the Wrath DVD and not bothering to pick up the physical BC package - just upgrade online through your account management and don't click the button where it says "install BC now".
What class do you play, or want to play? We can help you out with class details, or if you're not sure, we can give you information on each class to help you choose - just let us know stuff like whether your prefer melee or ranged, dps/heals/tank, etc.
RE: Last four years, every single character on horde side is a female blood elf.
This sounds much more like what I was hoping for.
The ice melted. Everything else is irrelevant.
The buff to DKs wasn't to increase their overall threat, it was to give them a quick high threat move ala Shield Slam to allow them to pick up adds quicker (think Yogg phase 3).
The Revenge buff was due to Warriors skipping it after the Devastate buff. Devastate was buffed to compensate for the nerf to Shield Slam.
The last time Pally threat was specifically addressed in relation to the other tanks, they had nerfed Righteous Fury from 90% to 80%.
Also, the DK threat is now idiotically high.
If you're the MT as a prot pally and the DK is an OT they have to now constantly control their threat or they will pull off you, no questions. Pallies simply can't even get remotely close to a DK on single target threat now. If a DK has threat you plain cannot ever get it back without a taunt, you will constantly fall in overall threat vs them and even with a perfect rotation you will never make ground.
DK's needed a buff for sure but it was simply overboard. Added to the fact that while Paladins have perfectly fine AoE threat still, their single target threat wasn't ever anything amazing, but it was good enough. Now they're easily last in tanking threat for single targets and Blizzard doesn't seem to give two shits. In fact if anything we'll just see nerfs to AoE threat to bring us further down.
This isn't just bitching, this is reality.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
Paladin TPS is still ridiculous and signficantly easier to gear for, 10 expertise from a glyph is just stupid.
Edit:
I can, as a DK tank, tell you right now that this is bullshit unless that Pally MT is terrible. When not actively tanking (i.e. parrying and dodging attacks) DK threat drops to ABYSMAL levels because we cannot Rune Strike, and RS is our TPS crutch.
Icy Touch does the same threat as Shield of the Righteous or Shield Slam, and we can use it as (or less, in the case of SS) often if we "spam" it. Anyway spamming it is stupid since it's needless TPS at the expense of useful DPS.
Pallies have also been seeing several backdoor changes to abilities. Shield of the Righteous, for example, was stealth-changed during Ulduar (I think. It wasn't Naxx or ICC for certain), so that it used the melee attack table. Prior to then it was hit/crit/miss.
In Naxx, pallies could pretty much ignore gearing for hit and expertise, and as time went on enough changes were put in so that if you ignore hit and expertise, it will hurt you. The only stat I'm not at the softcap now is hit, and that's because I like using Last Word (with Accuracy, I'm at around 7% hit).
Regardless, arguing that blood DKs which are consistantly hitting 10-11k threat single target are equal to paladins hitting maybe 9k is silly.
Icy Touch does so much more threat than a shield of the Righteous that your comment is completely absurd and patently false.
It is abundantly clear that you've never actually tanked as a paladin and are just one of the "abloo abloo paladins are OP" folks who cant hold threat on worthless trash and thinks that your class is terrible because of it.
I think most paladins of any knowledge would trade AoE threat for single target threat in a heartbeat because it's our #1 weakness in raids, particularly in ICC.
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice. And prior to ICC threat has never really been an issue. But now that dps is reaching insane heights the sheer weakness of Paladin single target threat is abundantly clear to everyone.
But then people like you just cry because you had issue before and get all bent out of shape over shit like expertise on a glyph and think that paladins are still overpowered when they're lagging behind every other tank now in threat that is actually meaningful.
Unfortunately blizzard seems to be focused on the same shit you are and feels like "zomg trash threat" is all that matters and jacks everyone else up but leaves paladins in the gutter for threat.
Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand
However, recently, I've been having threat issues completely. It wouldn't surprise me if they performed a threat nerf during the last patch and it made it through. I ran a heroic with someone the other day that I've never had issues with and all of a sudden they're building almost 3 times as much threat as I usually do.
I reapplied RF and it helped for all of 30 minutes then the issues came back. I reapplied again and there was no change this time.
You've got to be kidding me, this level of ignorance is astounding, and for the record, I have a Prot Pally too.
Two major points that are just insane:
Emphasis mine. And no, just, no. Paladins have become a very popular MT because Argent Defender is the most broken tanking talent in the game. Before they nerfed your stamina modifiers you also had incredible EH with high "defensive stance" equivalent DR and a consistent block (without Icecrown Radiance a Paladin blocks 100% of the time, effectively adding his block value straight to his HP).
So when guilds were doing ToC and ToGC Pallies became the dominant tank not because of their AoE threat (what was there to even AoE?) but because they were by far the most survivable tank, with Cheat Death (!), the DR component of AD, incredible EH, and all the various prot tricks like Raid Wall, Bubble out status effects, etc.
For a Blood Tank Icy Touch will produce ~15k threat (hits for like 1.1k in a raid with a 14x modifier) and considering the damage output by SotR and it's 2.574x threat modifier since it's holy I trust you can input your own SotR numbers and see that IT'S SIMILAR THREAT. Oh except you use SotR once every 6 seconds and I use IT once every 20 seconds.
The paper doll information appears correct, it's how the numbers are being reported on the back end.
EDIT: This is to bowen.
We have all three Plate tanks in our 25-man ICC, and we have no problems with any of this other than when our trigger-happy Mages or Hunters blow their load right at the beginning and MDs/ToTs need to go on say, the ranged tank for Blood Princes.
I did have to work my ass off before the IT buff at snap threat. And by work my ass off I mean, Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Dark Command and pray for a couple of Rune Strike procs right off the bat, or I'd be fucked without a Misdirect or Tricks of the Trade. The Icy Touch buff fixed that particular problem, and gave us DK tanks a much needed recourse versus chain-casting mobs, off-tanking or Rune Strike refusing to pop up. (I once went a full 30 seconds without seeing a single Rune Strike.)
Either the tanks were just that terrible, or something did happen.
That would explain why the gear score on some progress sites for a whole slew of paladin tanks is suddenly "WHAT THE FUCK WHY DO YOU EVEN HAVE ICC ACHIEVEMENTS HOLY SHIT"
I checked out wowranked or whatever and my GS went from purple to green after a refresh. Didn't really register as an "eh it's borked" though.
Why is it we were able to track this down faster than blizzard? I haven't even seen mention of this on any news sites.
To be fair, the big reasons Pallies were popular tanks in TOGC/TOC were:
1. Ardent Defender, especially on Gormok
2. The way that the adds for Anub were dealt with perfectly by paladins (shield block interaction with the debuff + holy wrath for aoe stun to stop their shadow step ability).
Raidwall and Bubbling out of status effects were up there, but holy pallies and ret pallies could and did handle those jobs too.
It's not common, and to be honest a lot of people who have this problem either wouldn't realize it or have other issues that would mask it.
The only reason I knew of this was that I went over to the maintankadin site and started looking up threat issues and this was mentioned as a probable fix.
Argent Defender is ridiculously powerful, trading it for Last Stand would be very foolish. AD is more EH than Last Stand at all times. It does what Last Stand does 24/7 and as a free bonus is also an always-on Guardian Spirit.
Yeah, DKs have always had too much ramp up time and without the IT change, it was REALLY starting to fuck with our threat.
And Rune Strike should be eliminated from the game and never return.
ha, that's pretty much it. The only class I couldn't annhilate on my shaman, would burn the fuckers down twice and scream in frustration as they bubble hearthed. When we got pallies I cried a little then made a female named Hearthmaul.
Steam
Only the strong can help the weak.
FTFY. :P
Well, if it would stop bitching like what you're doing I'd be more than happy to trade it in. Especially if the side effect is people would stop justifying nerfs to my threat because "you guys were once just absolutly amazing and this nerf is justified because of it!"
Nerfing my threat now, when it's not even really that amazing when you consider I can build equal threat on a lesser geared DK, or a similar geared warrior -- fuck bears because I've never leveled one to 80, is pants-on-head retarded.
- Our prot paladin's threat is terrible, but he is a terrible player, so that doesn't help.
- Our tanking DK has absurdly good threat now. (I'm not going to dispute that DKs needed some help, but Blizzard seems to have a habit of over compensating.)
- I've had generaly worse luck with prot paladins in random dungeons over the last couple months, but the random skill of players in there varies by a lot.
- Our Warriors feel fine.
People won't stop bitching about AD because it's Cheat Death on a tank. Where another tank would have died and likely wiped the raid, the Paladin gets a debuff for a couple minutes. It still boggles my mind how that made it live, at this point they're probably just waiting for Cataclysm to make any real changes to anything.
Because the devs said they don't want paladins to be warriors with heals. They want a little bit of difference between them, so if our cooldown is passive, I can see the reason not that I agree.
My comment about my threat was from the discussion that's been happening in regards to what I had commented on. Not on the patch notes, which are more often than not, missing a lot.
There's that nerf, as well as changing some of our abilities to start using the melee hit table (see my previous comment about Shield of the Righteous).
I'm also certain that some paladins experienced a threat nerf from the change to Touched By The Light, and again when they made Vindication a must have talent for tanking (to get it, you had to take points out of conviction).
And to be fair, a lot of paladins are still surprised that current AD made it live to begin with.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
As if that was a shock. How many times have they overcompensated because they misunderstood what was going on?