So I just had an interesting heroic queue: I loaded in while they were fighting the first boss of HoR. When I left, I did not get flight form back over Dalaran, and cratered into the fishing quest girl.
To all the people talking about paladin threat, it was inadvertantly nerfed beyond the righteous fury nerf when they made shiled block stacking useless. A significant portion of paladin threat scales off SBV, and for instance I currently pull almost identical threat now in my tank gear as I did when it was made of mostly ulduar hand-me-downs. I'm not saying paladin single target is in a bad place mind you, just that it's no longer top tps.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Blade Barrier giving +10% parry (80%+ avoidance in T7 gear...), Bone Shield reducing damage by 40% and scaling with avoidance (average 30+ seond duration, 1 minute CD), Lichborne, which they outright removed from the game, was a +25% chance to be missed for 20 seconds with a 3 minute CD (I was unhittable when I popped it), Frost Presence was +10% Health not +8% Stamina and a much higher armor coefficient (oh, and rings, necks and trinkets were all multiplied by frost presence armor bonus).
When WotLK launched I had insane armor, avoidance and health, could become unhittable at will and had cooldowns with such potency, duration and cooldown that I was unkillable at least 66% of the time. The only thing crazier was the state of Bear Tanks in that period, who actually managed to take less damage from physical sources from their insane armor alone.
We all knew it was incredibly broken, and that was reflected when every Sarth+3 had a DK on Sarth, a Druid on the Drakes (and a Pally on whelps with their AoE tanking dominance). The game is much more balanced now but some things still stand out.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
Um ... maybe you should read again.
He brought it up to explain why Pallies were the dominant tanks back then.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
Um ... maybe you should read again.
He brought it up to explain why Pallies were the dominant tanks back then.
Which has what to do with justification for the Deathknight>Pally threat comparision now?
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
Um ... maybe you should read again.
He brought it up to explain why Pallies were the dominant tanks back then.
Which has what to do with justification for the Deathknight>Pally threat comparision now?
/sigh
Alright, if you refuse to actually READ what you claim to have looked up, we'll go over this again.
Somebody said Pallies were the MT of choice because of their threat.
Lanlaorn then came in to point out the complete and utter bullshit this was, since the reason Pallies were the MT of Choice was because of the ridiculous overpoweredness of AD.
EDIT: Just to clarify, were you one of the people calling for the nerf to IBF when it was 1 minute because people were abusing it on Vezax? How about the lack of a limit on the absorption for AMS how it was used as an additional cooldown for Sarth3D back in T7?
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
Um ... maybe you should read again.
He brought it up to explain why Pallies were the dominant tanks back then.
Which has what to do with justification for the Deathknight>Pally threat comparision now?
/sigh
Alright, if you refuse to actually READ what you claim to have looked up, we'll go over this again.
Somebody said Pallies were the MT of choice because of their threat.
Lanlaorn then came in to point out the complete and utter bullshit this was, since the reason Pallies were the MT of Choice was because of the ridiculous overpoweredness of AD.
/sigh
You should stop being a silly goose and try reading the thread too.
The original post in regards to this was on pally threat. Lanlaorn stated that pally threat was fine and that pallies should L2Play. Some other silly goose makes a mention of pallies being popular tanks (which DKs also were for some fights, see also Vezax and Sarth3D). Lanlaorn starts going off on AD. Nobody in the thread actually disagrees with him, and at least two people who play paladins agree with him. They then go back to discussing pally threat, but he's still "but...but...AD!"
"The Insane" is probably the most accurately named title. The least accurate is probably "The Patient".
Last night I ran a few heroics to get enough triumph badges to get the heirloom bow for my baby warrior.
Spoilered for looong.
n had one of the most impatient mages I've ever seen. And also a terrible and somewhat impatient healer. He may have also had a thing against rogues.
In the first room, with all the snakes, after the first pack the healer says "go ahead and chain pull. I got you."
I'm slow in this room because I can barely see anything from the nameplates (I really wish they'd make those snakes critters instead of mobs so I don't have to turn off nameplates for that one location) and the mage goes and pulls the third group so I have to pick them up off with him without DnD and only a few runes available.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we kill the boss. DPS is slooooow.
The rogue dies.
Pally resses the rogue, we move on to the next room. I pick up the first pack. Once I have good threat on them I grab the second set of snakes and the wandering trolls. Then the mage blinks over the end and arcane barrages the last group. Again, while I don't have DnD or any runes up. I barely managed to pull those dudes off of everybody.
Of course, the rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and at this point I actually watch and see that the rogue recieves no further attention from him. I wait a few seconds, and figure the pally is doing something else and will pick it up later. I run to the next room, drop a DnD in the center and pick up most everything. The mage blinks across the group, toss a barrage at the boss to make him merge, then he runs down that side hallway as the trash is dying to pull that construct that is completely skippable. Unfortunately the pally stunned it so the mage didn't die, cause I didn't feel like taunting off his ass anymore.
Oh and the rogue died.
At this point he quits group, we are given another rogue and we down the boss.
We move on, hop over the water, I pull the next group, the mage pulls group of dudes fighting in front of moorabi, but for the only time in the whole run he actually did so in a way that got them in my dnd and pestilence so I got aggro easily. DPS on moorabi is slow.
And the new rogue dies.
The pally resses him, and doesn't heal him, I head down the hallway to Eck, when the mage whispers me "Dude, fuck you, not this guy." and sits down at moorabi's corpse. So now, just to spite the dick who's been making this run a pain I keep on going with renewed vigor. We down Eck, even slower since we're down a dps. We go to the bridge.
The rogue dies on the first trash pack.
The pally resses him and at this point I ask him if he has something against rogues. He claims he's trying a new UI which makes it hard to see him. I don't buy it, but figure we're 3 pulls from the boss might as well keep on trucking. The rogue is sitting at 23 hp.
The mage pulls rhino at the top of the stairs, and to my dismay the charge + fall damage does not quite kill him. I have to taunt when the shammy picks up aggro when the mage iceblocked. I pull both rhinos at the end in an effort to end it sooner.
And the rogue dies from poison spears.
The mage then pulls Gal'darah while the pally is ressing the rogue and just barely survives long enough to invis. He also gets impaled, and despite me blowing all my CDs, the pally keeps him up. No trouble seeing him apparently. They weren't even from the same server, so I don't know what the hell was up.
The mage and pally then win all the boss loots.
Also the rogue died from not getting healed after getting charged.
Huh, that was... quite a run. I must say though, your Eck part just reminds me of a few weeks ago when I was still running a daily random regularly with my characters. Had a Gun'drak with my Blood DK tank and after we killed Moorabi, I asked the group, extra boss or no? Only one guy spoke up and he wanted to, so we started running back there. Halfway down the path, the druid healer finally says that he doesn't want to do the extra boss because 'it's boring and he'll fall asleep' and doesn't follow us.
Eh, fuck him, we're doing it anyway. We had very good DPS so it didn't seem like an issue, and I then tanked all 9 trash mobs and Eck, one after another, with no heals (or bandaging/eating in between or anything), and by the end of it I was only down to about 70% hp. No wonder he was so bored on the run, he wasn't doing anything! I love Blood tanking.
So it's like 1am Monday night (10pm servertime) and due to scheduling, I hadn't done my 10ICC for the week. So I'm like "Fuck it, I'll join whichever PUG is going. Even if we only kill 1 boss, it's not like I'm gonna do any better before the servers reset".
Man, this raid was just full of fail tanks.
Like, both the original OT druid and the better geared replacement Pally OT kept dying on Marrowgar. Over and over.
Because they COULDN'T STRAFE.
That's right, instead of strafing out of Coldflame or whatever, they'd keyboard turn and run sideways and then keyboard turn back to face the boss.
I managed to drag our asses through to downing Saurfang though and we got the Deathwhisper weekly and did it (even though it was only me a healer and a DPS left alive by the end).
So 13 badges and my income JUST edged out my repair bill from dragging those scrubs through.
Whereas Bowen did willingly and without remorse puff, and subsequently refrained from passing, doing irreparable harm to the rotation....
Those jokes to me always initially look like a criticism of someone raiding stoned, before I realize they're talking about the smoking itself.
Also smoking gives you raid cancer.
I hate it when after every boss people take a cig break.
Tofystedeth on
0
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
Just out of idle curiosity, shryke, are you on a PvE server?
Also, speaking of ruining/having a ruined heroic experience. I had the misfortune of getting into a Heroic AN run last night. Got in there, and before I had even loaded the tank had run ahead and started pulling. Fine, whatever. I minimally healed him, and we kept going. No one said a word the whole time.
We made it to Anub. Or rather, they did. I was skinning those two dudes before, and the tank kept going. Literally, right before I could get into the ring, the walls came up. I was left on the outside.
I dropped my totems, but they had no effect on anyone inside of the raid. I sat and watched them all die, because the tank didn't want to turn around for a minute to make sure the healer was there. After they all died, I dropped the group. Have fun with your bill and running back, gooses!
So it's like 1am Monday night (10pm servertime) and due to scheduling, I hadn't done my 10ICC for the week. So I'm like "Fuck it, I'll join whichever PUG is going. Even if we only kill 1 boss, it's not like I'm gonna do any better before the servers reset".
Man, this raid was just full of fail tanks.
Like, both the original OT druid and the better geared replacement Pally OT kept dying on Marrowgar. Over and over.
Because they COULDN'T STRAFE.
That's right, instead of strafing out of Coldflame or whatever, they'd keyboard turn and run sideways and then keyboard turn back to face the boss.
I managed to drag our asses through to downing Saurfang though and we got the Deathwhisper weekly and did it (even though it was only me a healer and a DPS left alive by the end).
So 13 badges and my income JUST edged out my repair bill from dragging those scrubs through.
They should've been okay as long as they turned just to the side. You'd still be in the dodge/parry/block zone being sideways.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
So it's like 1am Monday night (10pm servertime) and due to scheduling, I hadn't done my 10ICC for the week. So I'm like "Fuck it, I'll join whichever PUG is going. Even if we only kill 1 boss, it's not like I'm gonna do any better before the servers reset".
Man, this raid was just full of fail tanks.
Like, both the original OT druid and the better geared replacement Pally OT kept dying on Marrowgar. Over and over.
Because they COULDN'T STRAFE.
That's right, instead of strafing out of Coldflame or whatever, they'd keyboard turn and run sideways and then keyboard turn back to face the boss.
I managed to drag our asses through to downing Saurfang though and we got the Deathwhisper weekly and did it (even though it was only me a healer and a DPS left alive by the end).
So 13 badges and my income JUST edged out my repair bill from dragging those scrubs through.
They should've been okay as long as they turned just to the side. You'd still be in the dodge/parry/block zone being sideways.
Not really, since you sit in Coldflame for AGES when you do it that way.
We also wiped once because the Pally Tanks keyboard turning meant it took her AGES to stack on me when Bonestorm ended and I got gibbed.
Just out of idle curiosity, shryke, are you on a PvE server?
Just out of idle curiosity, shryke, are you on a PvE server?
Also, speaking of ruining/having a ruined heroic experience. I had the misfortune of getting into a Heroic AN run last night. Got in there, and before I had even loaded the tank had run ahead and started pulling. Fine, whatever. I minimally healed him, and we kept going. No one said a word the whole time.
We made it to Anub. Or rather, they did. I was skinning those two dudes before, and the tank kept going. Literally, right before I could get into the ring, the walls came up. I was left on the outside.
I dropped my totems, but they had no effect on anyone inside of the raid. I sat and watched them all die, because the tank didn't want to turn around for a minute to make sure the healer was there. After they all died, I dropped the group. Have fun with your bill and running back, gooses!
As a healer I've noticed this is extremely common, particularly when it comes to starting pulls before people have even finished loading. And slowing down at all between pulls during the instance? Forget about it.
It's not such a big deal on my 80 pally with good gear, but on my 72 priest it's a pain in the ass when I load, do a prayer of fort, and the tank immediately pulls when I'm at half mana from buffing and whatnot and just want to drink. It's even worse when I'm still shadow specced and manage to complete the respec, so he pulls when I'm empty.
Just out of idle curiosity, shryke, are you on a PvE server?
Also, speaking of ruining/having a ruined heroic experience. I had the misfortune of getting into a Heroic AN run last night. Got in there, and before I had even loaded the tank had run ahead and started pulling. Fine, whatever. I minimally healed him, and we kept going. No one said a word the whole time.
We made it to Anub. Or rather, they did. I was skinning those two dudes before, and the tank kept going. Literally, right before I could get into the ring, the walls came up. I was left on the outside.
I dropped my totems, but they had no effect on anyone inside of the raid. I sat and watched them all die, because the tank didn't want to turn around for a minute to make sure the healer was there. After they all died, I dropped the group. Have fun with your bill and running back, gooses!
As a healer I've noticed this is extremely common, particularly when it comes to starting pulls before people have even finished loading. And slowing down at all between pulls during the instance? Forget about it.
It's not such a big deal on my 80 pally with good gear, but on my 72 priest it's a pain in the ass when I load, do a prayer of fort, and the tank immediately pulls when I'm at half mana from buffing and whatnot and just want to drink. It's even worse when I'm still shadow specced and manage to complete the respec, so he pulls when I'm empty.
It's probably because as a tank, you get an instance immediately, and I mean no more than 3 seconds (usually) after entering the queue, so the idea that someone could be doing other specs and not ready to start right away is alien to alot of new tanks.
A tank is never out doing dailies in a dps spec while queued, basically, and so eventually forgets someone else might be.
Also, speaking of ruining/having a ruined heroic experience. I had the misfortune of getting into a Heroic AN run last night. Got in there, and before I had even loaded the tank had run ahead and started pulling. Fine, whatever. I minimally healed him, and we kept going. No one said a word the whole time.
We made it to Anub. Or rather, they did. I was skinning those two dudes before, and the tank kept going. Literally, right before I could get into the ring, the walls came up. I was left on the outside.
I dropped my totems, but they had no effect on anyone inside of the raid. I sat and watched them all die, because the tank didn't want to turn around for a minute to make sure the healer was there. After they all died, I dropped the group. Have fun with your bill and running back, gooses!
As a healer I've noticed this is extremely common, particularly when it comes to starting pulls before people have even finished loading. And slowing down at all between pulls during the instance? Forget about it.
It's not such a big deal on my 80 pally with good gear, but on my 72 priest it's a pain in the ass when I load, do a prayer of fort, and the tank immediately pulls when I'm at half mana from buffing and whatnot and just want to drink. It's even worse when I'm still shadow specced and manage to complete the respec, so he pulls when I'm empty.
Well, the tank was doing fine for the most part without me. I think, other than Earth Shield, I didn't use anything on him. Most was used to heal everyone else. I just don't like popping in and the tank and a DPS or two are up ahead, around the bend, in combat fighting things.
And they did quite well without a healer on Anub. Of course, the pally ran OOM trying to remove the poison on himself, because my Cleansing Totem wasn't doing anything to the guys in the center. It was only out of morbid curiosity that I stayed and watched. I wanted to see if they could pull it off without a healer. Of course, I was full on mana the whole time. It was pretty good.
I actually do stuff like that alot. I zone in, I start pulling cause fuck, I barely need healing as is. If the healer needs me to stop, he'll say something usually, but it just doesn't come up.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
I actually do stuff like that alot. I zone in, I start pulling cause fuck, I barely need healing as is. If the healer needs me to stop, he'll say something usually, but it just doesn't come up.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
Yeah really not a problem at 80; like L Ron said he was barely healing the tank. Sucks a bit for the dps in AN, as the poisons and other stuff can fuck them up fast.
I just wish that the lowbie leveling tanks would realize they can't pull that shit in their quest greens; that every time they do a boss pull or a double pull or something crazy, and live, it's not because they're leet, it's because some terrified squishy healer is spamming the shit out of heals and CDs to keep them alive for much much longer than they deserve.
I actually do stuff like that alot. I zone in, I start pulling cause fuck, I barely need healing as is. If the healer needs me to stop, he'll say something usually, but it just doesn't come up.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
Yeah really not a problem at 80; like L Ron said he was barely healing the tank. Sucks a bit for the dps in AN, as the poisons and other stuff can fuck them up fast.
I just wish that the lowbie leveling tanks would realize they can't pull that shit in their quest greens; that every time they do a boss pull or a double pull or something crazy, and live, it's not because they're leet, it's because some terrified squishy healer is spamming the shit out of heals and CDs to keep them alive for much much longer than they deserve.
Spacemilk, you are a treasure.
I find this constantly with my lowbie priest.
The best is when I say I need mana, and they reply that they don't need heals, their main has killed Arthas.
Just to "clear my name" or... something? with regards to why AD was brought up, it was in response to this:
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice. And prior to ICC threat has never really been an issue. But now that dps is reaching insane heights the sheer weakness of Paladin single target threat is abundantly clear to everyone.
Emphasis mine, and I certainly didn't, at any point, somehow justify Paladin threat problems with AD, lol.
Anyway, with regards to pulling before the healer/dps are ready: heroics are just that easy. On my DK I can't even block and I barely take damage, warriors and paladins are practically invulnerable unless they turn their backs to something. With not taking much damage (and Death Strike healing heh) and the fact that most random groups you, as the tank, end up with the most damage done... well why wait?
I zone in, say hello, and go pull and don't stop. If you need mana, drink through a set of mobs. I just wait for people to catch up on any kind of "event" thing, the Anub example above or Skadi's hallway, whatever.
I don't think there's anything that really can threaten a well geared tank in a heroic, even after the rest of a group got annihilated by raid damage I could go on to finish a pull. I've soloed Loken a few times now and those first two bosses in PoS once.
Just to "clear my name" or... something? with regards to why AD was brought up, it was in response to this:
The major threat problems people see in ICC is almost entirely due to Paladins being that because of the AoE threat paladins have become a very popular MT choice. And prior to ICC threat has never really been an issue. But now that dps is reaching insane heights the sheer weakness of Paladin single target threat is abundantly clear to everyone.
Emphasis mine, and I certainly didn't, at any point, somehow justify Paladin threat problems with AD, lol.
Anyway, with regards to pulling before the healer/dps are ready: heroics are just that easy. On my DK I can't even block and I barely take damage, warriors and paladins are practically invulnerable unless they turn their backs to something. With not taking much damage (and Death Strike healing heh) and the fact that most random groups you, as the tank, end up with the most damage done... well why wait?
I zone in, say hello, and go pull and don't stop. If you need mana, drink through a set of mobs. I just wait for people to catch up on any kind of "event" thing, the Anub example above or Skadi's hallway, whatever.
I don't think there's anything that really can threaten a well geared tank in a heroic, even after the rest of a group got annihilated by raid damage I could go on to finish a pull. I've soloed Loken a few times now and those first two bosses in PoS once.
Hell, back at release, before I was even fully "Geared up" in my full 200ilvl tanking set, I would solo the 2nd boss in Occulus ALL THE TIME.
People were, and still are, too fucking stupid to avoid the lightning by running around the boss. So I'd end up having to solo the guy down from 70% at least half the time.
I actually do stuff like that alot. I zone in, I start pulling cause fuck, I barely need healing as is. If the healer needs me to stop, he'll say something usually, but it just doesn't come up.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
Yeah really not a problem at 80; like L Ron said he was barely healing the tank. Sucks a bit for the dps in AN, as the poisons and other stuff can fuck them up fast.
I just wish that the lowbie leveling tanks would realize they can't pull that shit in their quest greens; that every time they do a boss pull or a double pull or something crazy, and live, it's not because they're leet, it's because some terrified squishy healer is spamming the shit out of heals and CDs to keep them alive for much much longer than they deserve.
Spacemilk, you are a treasure.
I find this constantly with my lowbie priest.
The best is when I say I need mana, and they reply that they don't need heals, their main has killed Arthas.
^
That is all so true.... I am gonna macro "my blue gives you green" since it's rare tanks wait for me to drink on my baby shaman... well most of them learn after thier first death.
Yea heh, I actually took a screenshot the first time it happened with a PUG on Loken, it was a while ago so a lot worse gear and I was Frost at the time - the worst self healing tree. I barely killed him, and got the "kill him quickly" achievement for someone!
Lanlaorn on
0
DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
Yea heh, I actually took a screenshot the first time it happened with a PUG on Loken, it was a while ago so a lot worse gear and I was Frost at the time - the worst self healing tree. I barely killed him, and got the "kill him quickly" achievement for someone!
It amazes me how many DK tanks I see who just don't bother to set up a quick macro to Raise Ghoul > Death Pact it. Saved my arse plenty of times.
Also, first 10-man Blood Queen down tonight. First time I saw her tonight too, and it was on our last attempt. Lost one healer (Holy Priest) and a Hunter but we just got her down before the beserk hit. That chest-piece is sweet for my Resto Shammy. Very happy bunny.
I actually do stuff like that alot. I zone in, I start pulling cause fuck, I barely need healing as is. If the healer needs me to stop, he'll say something usually, but it just doesn't come up.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
Yeah really not a problem at 80; like L Ron said he was barely healing the tank. Sucks a bit for the dps in AN, as the poisons and other stuff can fuck them up fast.
I just wish that the lowbie leveling tanks would realize they can't pull that shit in their quest greens; that every time they do a boss pull or a double pull or something crazy, and live, it's not because they're leet, it's because some terrified squishy healer is spamming the shit out of heals and CDs to keep them alive for much much longer than they deserve.
Spacemilk, you are a treasure.
I find this constantly with my lowbie priest.
The best is when I say I need mana, and they reply that they don't need heals, their main has killed Arthas.
On my lowbie Paladin I start small and ramp up my pulls until I find a spot the healer's comfy with.
Also note to self: Stop trying to do VoA25 on Tuesday.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
It amazes me how many DK tanks I see who just don't bother to set up a quick macro to Raise Ghoul > Death Pact it. Saved my arse plenty of times.
Meh, both abilities are on the GCD, I'm not some super APM starcraft guy but from playing RTS's having 1.5 seconds in between actions is really plenty.
I do macro things like Blood Tab + Unbreakable Armor/Bone Shield/Vampiric Embrace + Trinket(s), anything off the GCD that a macro will make instant while my own keybindings or clicking leave.
Lanlaorn on
0
DunxcoShould get a suitNever skips breakfastRegistered Userregular
It amazes me how many DK tanks I see who just don't bother to set up a quick macro to Raise Ghoul > Death Pact it. Saved my arse plenty of times.
Meh, both abilities are on the GCD, I'm not some super APM starcraft guy but from playing RTS's having 1.5 seconds in between actions is really plenty.
I do macro things like Blood Tab + Unbreakable Armor/Bone Shield/Vampiric Embrace + Trinket(s), anything off the GCD that a macro will make instant while my own keybindings or clicking leave.
See I'm a big fan of shift-macros, so I just have Raise Ghoul bound to... Bugger, dunno without looking at the keybind (must be just a reflex thing, so let's say "A" for the sake or argument), and then hit shift+A for pact, bam, 40% heal. Nice when the healer DCs, or lags, or dies because he's busy doing something more interesting than shoving heals at my backside.
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It's BETTER then Will of the Necropolis AND it's Cheat Death. At the same time.
I'm not expecting you guys to be actively seeking its nerf, just don't be surprised when people complain. We all know when something we have is way too good. Also IBF and infinite-AMS were nothing (AMS was still a viable Sarth3D CD btw, I easily MT'd it without any external CDs back in the day), there was a lot more really, really broken stuff for tanking DKs when WotLK launched.
Blade Barrier giving +10% parry (80%+ avoidance in T7 gear...), Bone Shield reducing damage by 40% and scaling with avoidance (average 30+ seond duration, 1 minute CD), Lichborne, which they outright removed from the game, was a +25% chance to be missed for 20 seconds with a 3 minute CD (I was unhittable when I popped it), Frost Presence was +10% Health not +8% Stamina and a much higher armor coefficient (oh, and rings, necks and trinkets were all multiplied by frost presence armor bonus).
When WotLK launched I had insane armor, avoidance and health, could become unhittable at will and had cooldowns with such potency, duration and cooldown that I was unkillable at least 66% of the time. The only thing crazier was the state of Bear Tanks in that period, who actually managed to take less damage from physical sources from their insane armor alone.
We all knew it was incredibly broken, and that was reflected when every Sarth+3 had a DK on Sarth, a Druid on the Drakes (and a Pally on whelps with their AoE tanking dominance). The game is much more balanced now but some things still stand out.
Okay, so my question here is...why are you bitching about AD when nobody here is disagreeing with you?
I just went back and checked the thread starting back when pally threat was first mentioned, and the first person to bring up AD was....you. Then there were posts from both myself and Bowen saying "yeah, it probably needs to be nerfed." Then there were more posts from you bitching about it.
What does the fact that AD is broken have to do with Pally threat?
Um ... maybe you should read again.
He brought it up to explain why Pallies were the dominant tanks back then.
Which has what to do with justification for the Deathknight>Pally threat comparision now?
/sigh
Alright, if you refuse to actually READ what you claim to have looked up, we'll go over this again.
Somebody said Pallies were the MT of choice because of their threat.
Lanlaorn then came in to point out the complete and utter bullshit this was, since the reason Pallies were the MT of Choice was because of the ridiculous overpoweredness of AD.
I remember I claimed that paladins were able to over take warriors as MTs on single targets because of their AoE threat, though.
/sigh
You should stop being a silly goose and try reading the thread too.
The original post in regards to this was on pally threat. Lanlaorn stated that pally threat was fine and that pallies should L2Play. Some other silly goose makes a mention of pallies being popular tanks (which DKs also were for some fights, see also Vezax and Sarth3D). Lanlaorn starts going off on AD. Nobody in the thread actually disagrees with him, and at least two people who play paladins agree with him. They then go back to discussing pally threat, but he's still "but...but...AD!"
Naw, somebody did bring it back up on the first page where pally threat came up..
Huh, that was... quite a run. I must say though, your Eck part just reminds me of a few weeks ago when I was still running a daily random regularly with my characters. Had a Gun'drak with my Blood DK tank and after we killed Moorabi, I asked the group, extra boss or no? Only one guy spoke up and he wanted to, so we started running back there. Halfway down the path, the druid healer finally says that he doesn't want to do the extra boss because 'it's boring and he'll fall asleep' and doesn't follow us.
Eh, fuck him, we're doing it anyway. We had very good DPS so it didn't seem like an issue, and I then tanked all 9 trash mobs and Eck, one after another, with no heals (or bandaging/eating in between or anything), and by the end of it I was only down to about 70% hp. No wonder he was so bored on the run, he wasn't doing anything! I love Blood tanking.
It was That Dude With Herpes. About the middle of this post.
Steam
Only the strong can help the weak.
So it's like 1am Monday night (10pm servertime) and due to scheduling, I hadn't done my 10ICC for the week. So I'm like "Fuck it, I'll join whichever PUG is going. Even if we only kill 1 boss, it's not like I'm gonna do any better before the servers reset".
Man, this raid was just full of fail tanks.
Like, both the original OT druid and the better geared replacement Pally OT kept dying on Marrowgar. Over and over.
Because they COULDN'T STRAFE.
That's right, instead of strafing out of Coldflame or whatever, they'd keyboard turn and run sideways and then keyboard turn back to face the boss.
I managed to drag our asses through to downing Saurfang though and we got the Deathwhisper weekly and did it (even though it was only me a healer and a DPS left alive by the end).
So 13 badges and my income JUST edged out my repair bill from dragging those scrubs through.
Those jokes to me always initially look like a criticism of someone raiding stoned, before I realize they're talking about the smoking itself.
Also smoking gives you raid cancer.
I hate it when after every boss people take a cig break.
Also, speaking of ruining/having a ruined heroic experience. I had the misfortune of getting into a Heroic AN run last night. Got in there, and before I had even loaded the tank had run ahead and started pulling. Fine, whatever. I minimally healed him, and we kept going. No one said a word the whole time.
We made it to Anub. Or rather, they did. I was skinning those two dudes before, and the tank kept going. Literally, right before I could get into the ring, the walls came up. I was left on the outside.
I dropped my totems, but they had no effect on anyone inside of the raid. I sat and watched them all die, because the tank didn't want to turn around for a minute to make sure the healer was there. After they all died, I dropped the group. Have fun with your bill and running back, gooses!
They should've been okay as long as they turned just to the side. You'd still be in the dodge/parry/block zone being sideways.
Not really, since you sit in Coldflame for AGES when you do it that way.
We also wiped once because the Pally Tanks keyboard turning meant it took her AGES to stack on me when Bonestorm ended and I got gibbed.
PvP.
Though, I've sat inside the flame in 25m to cast an exorcism just for shits.
As a healer I've noticed this is extremely common, particularly when it comes to starting pulls before people have even finished loading. And slowing down at all between pulls during the instance? Forget about it.
It's not such a big deal on my 80 pally with good gear, but on my 72 priest it's a pain in the ass when I load, do a prayer of fort, and the tank immediately pulls when I'm at half mana from buffing and whatnot and just want to drink. It's even worse when I'm still shadow specced and manage to complete the respec, so he pulls when I'm empty.
It's a poll.
( ) Paladin
( ) None of the above
It's probably because as a tank, you get an instance immediately, and I mean no more than 3 seconds (usually) after entering the queue, so the idea that someone could be doing other specs and not ready to start right away is alien to alot of new tanks.
A tank is never out doing dailies in a dps spec while queued, basically, and so eventually forgets someone else might be.
Or they are just silly geese.
That's awesome... and heartbreaking.
Well, the tank was doing fine for the most part without me. I think, other than Earth Shield, I didn't use anything on him. Most was used to heal everyone else. I just don't like popping in and the tank and a DPS or two are up ahead, around the bend, in combat fighting things.
And they did quite well without a healer on Anub. Of course, the pally ran OOM trying to remove the poison on himself, because my Cleansing Totem wasn't doing anything to the guys in the center. It was only out of morbid curiosity that I stayed and watched. I wanted to see if they could pull it off without a healer. Of course, I was full on mana the whole time. It was pretty good.
That poll is awesome! Thanks for posting it, End.
The thing is, you gotta be SMART about it.
You wait to be sure the healer is there for bosses and such.
And you ESPECIALLY wait for everyone when it comes to bosses who will lock people lagging behind out. (Like in AN where I always make sure everyone in inside before pulling)
I just wish that the lowbie leveling tanks would realize they can't pull that shit in their quest greens; that every time they do a boss pull or a double pull or something crazy, and live, it's not because they're leet, it's because some terrified squishy healer is spamming the shit out of heals and CDs to keep them alive for much much longer than they deserve.
Spacemilk, you are a treasure.
I find this constantly with my lowbie priest.
The best is when I say I need mana, and they reply that they don't need heals, their main has killed Arthas.
Emphasis mine, and I certainly didn't, at any point, somehow justify Paladin threat problems with AD, lol.
Anyway, with regards to pulling before the healer/dps are ready: heroics are just that easy. On my DK I can't even block and I barely take damage, warriors and paladins are practically invulnerable unless they turn their backs to something. With not taking much damage (and Death Strike healing heh) and the fact that most random groups you, as the tank, end up with the most damage done... well why wait?
I zone in, say hello, and go pull and don't stop. If you need mana, drink through a set of mobs. I just wait for people to catch up on any kind of "event" thing, the Anub example above or Skadi's hallway, whatever.
I don't think there's anything that really can threaten a well geared tank in a heroic, even after the rest of a group got annihilated by raid damage I could go on to finish a pull. I've soloed Loken a few times now and those first two bosses in PoS once.
Hell, back at release, before I was even fully "Geared up" in my full 200ilvl tanking set, I would solo the 2nd boss in Occulus ALL THE TIME.
People were, and still are, too fucking stupid to avoid the lightning by running around the boss. So I'd end up having to solo the guy down from 70% at least half the time.
^
That is all so true.... I am gonna macro "my blue gives you green" since it's rare tanks wait for me to drink on my baby shaman... well most of them learn after thier first death.
It amazes me how many DK tanks I see who just don't bother to set up a quick macro to Raise Ghoul > Death Pact it. Saved my arse plenty of times.
Also, first 10-man Blood Queen down tonight. First time I saw her tonight too, and it was on our last attempt. Lost one healer (Holy Priest) and a Hunter but we just got her down before the beserk hit. That chest-piece is sweet for my Resto Shammy. Very happy bunny.
I forget or don't need it, whatever.
On my lowbie Paladin I start small and ramp up my pulls until I find a spot the healer's comfy with.
Also note to self: Stop trying to do VoA25 on Tuesday.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Meh, both abilities are on the GCD, I'm not some super APM starcraft guy but from playing RTS's having 1.5 seconds in between actions is really plenty.
I do macro things like Blood Tab + Unbreakable Armor/Bone Shield/Vampiric Embrace + Trinket(s), anything off the GCD that a macro will make instant while my own keybindings or clicking leave.
See I'm a big fan of shift-macros, so I just have Raise Ghoul bound to... Bugger, dunno without looking at the keybind (must be just a reflex thing, so let's say "A" for the sake or argument), and then hit shift+A for pact, bam, 40% heal. Nice when the healer DCs, or lags, or dies because he's busy doing something more interesting than shoving heals at my backside.