After the debacle that was the Death Knight class right after launch I would guess that Blizzard isn't looking at releasing another hero class for a while. A long while.
What debacle? They were a bit overpowered, but I wouldn't call that a "debacle", especially since they've done a lot of work on them and they're at a pretty good place right now.
Personally, I'm hoping they'll go for a "new races, then new class, then new races, then new class" sort of system with their expansions, but that's just because I really really like patterns.
It was awesome when they were overpowered at the start, and then every subsequent nerf led to cries of "BUT WE'RE A HERO CLASS WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE STRONGER THAN EVERYONE ELSE." Fuck DKs.
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
They should've just come out and said in no uncertain terms that all hero class means is that you can skip the boring vanilla content and get a free epic mount.
Pretty sure a few blues insinuated as much, but not sure if they made it their official stance.
After the debacle that was the Death Knight class right after launch I would guess that Blizzard isn't looking at releasing another hero class for a while. A long while.
I wouldn't call DK a debacle. It's hard to define a role for a new class in to a system with 9 pretty tight classes, and then keep that class balanced. Plus I think it was obvious from the start they were going to err on the side of the DK being strong at WoTLK release, so it was a draw for people to play them, and to show off "Hey, look how awesome our new Hero class is".
I'm not really referring to the class mechanics, though that certainly had something to do with it. I was referring to the servers filled with fresh DKs who had no idea how to play the class, alongside the rest of the playerbase who knew their classes but were dealing with the class changes. Dungeons and raids were...interesting for quite a while after that.
An interesting new role might be another kind of support (but not healing, or at least not healing-focused) caster. Maybe some kind of class which can take advantage of their allies for special abilities, and otherwise increase the potential of the group through buffs and tricks.
After the debacle that was the Death Knight class right after launch I would guess that Blizzard isn't looking at releasing another hero class for a while. A long while.
I wouldn't call DK a debacle. It's hard to define a role for a new class in to a system with 9 pretty tight classes, and then keep that class balanced. Plus I think it was obvious from the start they were going to err on the side of the DK being strong at WoTLK release, so it was a draw for people to play them, and to show off "Hey, look how awesome our new Hero class is".
I'm not really referring to the class mechanics, though that certainly had something to do with it. I was referring to the servers filled with fresh DKs who had no idea how to play the class, alongside the rest of the playerbase who knew their classes but were dealing with the class changes. Dungeons and raids were...interesting for quite a while after that.
Well, in all fairness, there are several people who have played their class all the way from level 1 to level max (whatever level that may be at whichever time) who have no idea how to play their class.
You could say that people, not new classes, are a debacle.
An interesting new role might be another kind of support (but not healing, or at least not healing-focused) caster. Maybe some kind of class which can take advantage of their allies for special abilities, and otherwise increase the potential of the group through buffs and tricks.
See, I would love some sort of class who buffs and debuffs and does support-y things, but it would never in a million years work in WoW. "lol y r u so low on dps and heling metters u sux".
My personal pick for a new class would be something akin to Spellbreaker: a melee DPS "caster" with sword n' board.
Never gonna happen, but playing a class like that would be so great.
That was my idea too, from all the way back in Vanilla. Especially since the smart money was on Blood Elves being a new race added to the game.
I had a bunch of ideas for it which, funnily enough, ended up sounding alot like the DK (minus the DKs Rune resource system).
I liked the idea of a Magic-attuned Physical Melee DPS class that, in my mind, would DPS with a shield.
Now though? I don't know if a new class is even necessary. I think 10 is a good number. I can't really think of anything really new they could do. Hell, the DK kinda overlaps with the Ret pally already.
They should've just come out and said in no uncertain terms that all hero class means is that you can skip the boring vanilla content and get a free epic mount.
Pretty sure a few blues insinuated as much, but not sure if they made it their official stance.
Yeah... skip the "boring" classic content and jump right into... Outlands.
Because Outlands was fresh and new at WotLK launch and not at all a coyote ugly fucking grindcity of shitty quests you hated the first time and instances you were physically ill thinking about running again.
I'd like to see a character like Guild Wars' Mesmer class, that isn't so much about damage and healing as disabling the enemy. Of course, pretty much every elite mob in a dungeon or raid is immune to any sort of status-tampering so it would be of limited use outside of PvP and leveling. Also, if the rogue is any indicator the arena crowd would cry rivers of tears if they had to deal with players whose only purpose was to lock them down, and the whole class would punch a hole in Blizz's 'totally not about PvP' game changes.
I'm pretty sure that whatever the next hero class will be, it'll be a non-cloth caster/healer hybrid. There's no need for either more meleers or another clothie.
They should've just come out and said in no uncertain terms that all hero class means is that you can skip the boring vanilla content and get a free epic mount.
Pretty sure a few blues insinuated as much, but not sure if they made it their official stance.
Yeah... skip the "boring" classic content and jump right into... Outlands.
Because Outlands was fresh and new at WotLK launch and not at all a coyote ugly fucking grindcity of shitty quests you hated the first time and instances you were physically ill thinking about running again.
Aside from a few zones, you have a very different perspective on Outlands than I do. I rather like Terrokar, Zangarmarsh, Nagrand, and Netherstorm for questing.
I think they just didn't want the massive number of DK rerolls to level in the same place as every other 70. Having them start in Outland staggered the load a bit.
An interesting new role might be another kind of support (but not healing, or at least not healing-focused) caster. Maybe some kind of class which can take advantage of their allies for special abilities, and otherwise increase the potential of the group through buffs and tricks.
See, I would love some sort of class who buffs and debuffs and does support-y things, but it would never in a million years work in WoW. "lol y r u so low on dps and heling metters u sux".
That's a good point, but they could have a spec for the class which focuses on maneuvers or combo-attacks or something. You do damage "through" your team-mates, and it counts as your damage/threat.
An interesting new role might be another kind of support (but not healing, or at least not healing-focused) caster. Maybe some kind of class which can take advantage of their allies for special abilities, and otherwise increase the potential of the group through buffs and tricks.
See, I would love some sort of class who buffs and debuffs and does support-y things, but it would never in a million years work in WoW. "lol y r u so low on dps and heling metters u sux".
That's a good point, but they could have a spec for the class which focuses on maneuvers or combo-attacks or something. You do damage "through" your team-mates, and it counts as your damage/threat.
Completely buff central characters are not fun to play. That's why WoW has never had one.
PvP whiners who complain about getting stunlocked by rogues never seem to mind the fact that rogues are simply the most fragile class in the game in any other situation.
I'd like to see a character like Guild Wars' Mesmer class, that isn't so much about damage and healing as disabling the enemy. Of course, pretty much every elite mob in a dungeon or raid is immune to any sort of status-tampering so it would be of limited use outside of PvP and leveling. Also, if the rogue is any indicator the arena crowd would cry rivers of tears if they had to deal with players whose only purpose was to lock them down, and the whole class would punch a hole in Blizz's 'totally not about PvP' game changes.
Conceptually, I think that was their original line of thinking with Warlocks, particularly with the affliction tree.. Of course mesmers do a lot more disabling than Warlocks ever did, and Warlocks aren't really about that anymore.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
They should've just come out and said in no uncertain terms that all hero class means is that you can skip the boring vanilla content and get a free epic mount.
Pretty sure a few blues insinuated as much, but not sure if they made it their official stance.
Yeah... skip the "boring" classic content and jump right into... Outlands.
Because Outlands was fresh and new at WotLK launch and not at all a coyote ugly fucking grindcity of shitty quests you hated the first time and instances you were physically ill thinking about running again.
Aside from a few zones, you have a very different perspective on Outlands than I do. I rather like Terrokar, Zangarmarsh, Nagrand, and Netherstorm for questing.
I think they just didn't want the massive number of DK rerolls to level in the same place as every other 70. Having them start in Outland staggered the load a bit.
My feelings for Outlands will always be shaded by the first character I leveled through it (a rogue) and how awful itemization for rogues was in that entire expansion.
PvP whiners who complain about getting stunlocked by rogues never seem to mind the fact that rogues are simply the most fragile class in the game in any other situation.
Don't rogues have more than one ability that either allows them to avoid being attacked or vastly mitigates damage taken that have nothing to do with their stuns?
I'm not saying people should whine about getting stunlocked, but saying rogues are fragile is a joke. As in I'm laughing right now.
PvP whiners who complain about getting stunlocked by rogues never seem to mind the fact that rogues are simply the most fragile class in the game in any other situation.
Don't rogues have more than one ability that either allows them to avoid being attacked or vastly mitigates damage taken that have nothing to do with their stuns?
I'm not saying people should whine about getting stunlocked, but saying rogues are fragile is a joke. As in I'm laughing right now.
People should whine about getting stunlocked because getting stunlocked (or fearlocked or whatever) is the complete opposite of fun.
And yeah, Rogues aren't fragile. What a ridiculous thing to say.
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
I'll never understand it.
They complain because it's not fun to be ambushed like that out of thin air.
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
I'll never understand it.
They complain because it's not fun to be ambushed like that out of thin air.
And I'm saying that rogues have taken the single effective avenue that the designers of the game have afforded to them, and they have nothing to apologize for doing so.
I'm sorry it's not fun for you, but I'm sure it's fun for the rogue so there's some balance there. Your fun will surely come after stunlocking gets nerfed into oblivion and Bliz spends the next 6 months trying to make rogues not suck shit until they figure something out.
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
I'll never understand it.
They complain because it's not fun to be ambushed like that out of thin air.
And I'm saying that rogues have taken the single effective avenue that the designers of the game have afforded to them, and they have nothing to apologize for doing so.
I'm sorry it's not fun for you, but I'm sure it's fun for the rogue so there's some balance there. Your fun will surely come after stunlocking gets nerfed into oblivion and Bliz spends the next 6 months trying to make rogues not suck shit until they figure something out.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I wasn't attempting to demonize people who play Rogues (because that would be ridiculous), but rather state that it's bullshit game design and a failure on Blizzard's part.
The problem is that a class design like that just isn't any fun.
For the rogue it's basically like having a "Free Kill" ability on a 3 minute cooldown.
The Rogue gets to use it and then wait.
The guy who it gets used on doesn't have a chance.
And since the Rogue isn't gonna go after the SAME guy over and over every 30 seconds, it never evens out for the people getting killed without a chance to fight back.
Around the time of launch for WotLK I believe Blizzard said they wanted to aim for 1 hero class per expansion. Now, after months of trying to balance 30 different talent trees, who knows when they'll add another hero class?
I always wanted a Demon Hunter though. Unfortunately that ship has completely sailed because their biggest lore opportunity would have been tBC with Illidan and all, and all their skills could just as easily be given to Rogues/Hunters/Warlocks. In fact, their key ability (Metamorphosis) already was.
I wonder if that demon hunter in Azshara will still be there after the goblins space-nuke it in Cataclysm?
Necromancers and Runemasters would have been nice as well, but Death Knights shot down both of those at once.
Blademasters are pretty much Warriors (although I did like that one Blademaster idea from a while back where they dual-wielded and then had a two-hander equipped in their relic slot that they would use for certain skills).
Most of the other WC3 hero units are either not workable or too heavily tied to race (Dreadlord, Mountain King, Tauren Chieftain). I guess Shadow Hunter or Warden might be able to be tweaked enough that they could be different from existing classes, but they'd still just be dps (unless they worked evasion tanking in or something) and are also pretty heavily tied to their respective races.
Funnily enough, I actually think Brewmaster would be the easiest of the hero units to convert into a full fledged class. Also, it wouldn't be too hard a stretch to make them a tank/heals/dps hybrid (though tanking would probably have to be a Drunken Master style evasion tanking).
I think my favoritest class so far in an MMO was my Red Mage in FF11. Hell, I never even got her very high level, only 20 or so, so I only saw a fraction of what it involved.
They had ok magic, ok melee, the best debuffs and second best buffs I think (second to White Mages?). I just liked the overall mix concept. Buffing the party somewhat, tossing in offheals to help out the dedicated healer, greatly hindering the enemy and joining in on attack chains to help boost them.
But yeah, a class model like that just wouldn't work in the current WoW battle system. You'd almost have to have, I don't know, something like the Stagger system FF13 has maybe?
Enhancement Shamans are *kind* of the closest we have to something like it at the moment. Up in melee, flinging spells, able to throw not completely gimped heals, totem party enhancements... I guess.
Around the time of launch for WotLK I believe Blizzard said they wanted to aim for 1 hero class per expansion. Now, after months of trying to balance 30 different talent trees, who knows when they'll add another hero class?
Yeah... I think they might have even hinted we might even see multiple per expansion sometimes.
Yeah...
:P
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
I'll never understand it.
This IS bullshit.
I mean, Rogues have to hit, run and hide?
What's next? Mages having to unload lots of control to lock someone down?
Or a Warlock crippling others?
Or a Warrior going from target to target?
It's horse shit.
Wait.
No it's not.
It's practically in the NAME OF THE FUCKING CLASS.
I'd like to see a character like Guild Wars' Mesmer class, that isn't so much about damage and healing as disabling the enemy. Of course, pretty much every elite mob in a dungeon or raid is immune to any sort of status-tampering so it would be of limited use outside of PvP and leveling. Also, if the rogue is any indicator the arena crowd would cry rivers of tears if they had to deal with players whose only purpose was to lock them down, and the whole class would punch a hole in Blizz's 'totally not about PvP' game changes.
Conceptually, I think that was their original line of thinking with Warlocks, particularly with the affliction tree.. Of course mesmers do a lot more disabling than Warlocks ever did, and Warlocks aren't really about that anymore.
Well, the problem with debuff classes is that debuffs are incredibly powerful and unbalancing. Mostly, they are either mostly useless or they are overpowered and required. Spreading them around to other classes could work pretty well though. Essentially whereas some classes get 1 or 2 debuffs, Warlocks could cast ALL of them, just not at the same time (letting them easily fill for any debuffs your comp might be missing)
Of course, the big issue with Warlocks and Debuffing was always Curse of Agony. (Which they are FINALLY solving). You can't make a debuff class and then have their debuffs be mutually exclusive with their damage abilities. That's just fucking stupid.
See, what they need to do now is introduce new armor types. Reinforced Cloth, Studded Leather, Shelled Mail and Super Plate Armors! Then they could introduce new classes that could use those new categories of armor!
And they could mix their two subtypes and still keep the minor Mastery bonus for having all the same type of armor... so Cloth and Reinforced Cloth pieces would all count together, etc.
Then you'd be able to have all new versions of the exact same class roles! And could call them Hero classes and everything.
Dranyth on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
I never really understood why you need four armor types, anyhow. Three seems like a pretty good number for light/medium/heavy set-up. Why do you need to add one more in between medium and heavy?
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
Yes rogues have it so hard in pvp. That doesn't count any of the stuns, silences, or disarming rogues have to use, that's just defensive cooldowns. 5 defensive cooldowns. In addition to being able to passively snare and mortal strike enemies, at which time that enemy probably won't be able to attack back anyway so it doesn't matter. Don't even bother to take into account the fact that rogues can stand toe to toe with most people in pvp these days, but hey, i'm sure you're horrendous 3 min cooldowns are keeping you down in the world of pvp, especially when some classes who are a whole hell of a lot squishier than rogues have much much less survivability and damage potential. But go ahead and keep on pretending like rogues got dealt a band hand in pvp, someday someone might believe you.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
jeepguy reminds me of the guy in the World of Roguecraft videos.
Rogues defensive abilities are tied to long cooldowns, forcing them into hit and run tactics and ambushes. And then people QQ when a rogue ambushes them away from the pack and dominates them.
I'll never understand it.
This IS bullshit.
I mean, Rogues have to hit, run and hide?
What's next? Mages having to unload lots of control to lock someone down?
Or a Warlock crippling others?
Or a Warrior going from target to target?
It's horse shit.
Wait.
No it's not.
It's practically in the NAME OF THE FUCKING CLASS.
Posts
What debacle? They were a bit overpowered, but I wouldn't call that a "debacle", especially since they've done a lot of work on them and they're at a pretty good place right now.
Personally, I'm hoping they'll go for a "new races, then new class, then new races, then new class" sort of system with their expansions, but that's just because I really really like patterns.
Pretty sure a few blues insinuated as much, but not sure if they made it their official stance.
I'm not really referring to the class mechanics, though that certainly had something to do with it. I was referring to the servers filled with fresh DKs who had no idea how to play the class, alongside the rest of the playerbase who knew their classes but were dealing with the class changes. Dungeons and raids were...interesting for quite a while after that.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Well, in all fairness, there are several people who have played their class all the way from level 1 to level max (whatever level that may be at whichever time) who have no idea how to play their class.
You could say that people, not new classes, are a debacle.
See, I would love some sort of class who buffs and debuffs and does support-y things, but it would never in a million years work in WoW. "lol y r u so low on dps and heling metters u sux".
That was my idea too, from all the way back in Vanilla. Especially since the smart money was on Blood Elves being a new race added to the game.
I had a bunch of ideas for it which, funnily enough, ended up sounding alot like the DK (minus the DKs Rune resource system).
I liked the idea of a Magic-attuned Physical Melee DPS class that, in my mind, would DPS with a shield.
Now though? I don't know if a new class is even necessary. I think 10 is a good number. I can't really think of anything really new they could do. Hell, the DK kinda overlaps with the Ret pally already.
Yeah... skip the "boring" classic content and jump right into... Outlands.
Because Outlands was fresh and new at WotLK launch and not at all a coyote ugly fucking grindcity of shitty quests you hated the first time and instances you were physically ill thinking about running again.
He can be like the emerald drake in Oculus. Leech life, absorb, poison powder, stun powder. The list goes on.
Aside from a few zones, you have a very different perspective on Outlands than I do. I rather like Terrokar, Zangarmarsh, Nagrand, and Netherstorm for questing.
I think they just didn't want the massive number of DK rerolls to level in the same place as every other 70. Having them start in Outland staggered the load a bit.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Completely buff central characters are not fun to play. That's why WoW has never had one.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
Conceptually, I think that was their original line of thinking with Warlocks, particularly with the affliction tree.. Of course mesmers do a lot more disabling than Warlocks ever did, and Warlocks aren't really about that anymore.
My feelings for Outlands will always be shaded by the first character I leveled through it (a rogue) and how awful itemization for rogues was in that entire expansion.
So yes, YMMV.
Don't rogues have more than one ability that either allows them to avoid being attacked or vastly mitigates damage taken that have nothing to do with their stuns?
I'm not saying people should whine about getting stunlocked, but saying rogues are fragile is a joke. As in I'm laughing right now.
PSN/XBL: Zampanov -- Steam: Zampanov
People should whine about getting stunlocked because getting stunlocked (or fearlocked or whatever) is the complete opposite of fun.
And yeah, Rogues aren't fragile. What a ridiculous thing to say.
I'll never understand it.
They complain because it's not fun to be ambushed like that out of thin air.
And I'm saying that rogues have taken the single effective avenue that the designers of the game have afforded to them, and they have nothing to apologize for doing so.
I'm sorry it's not fun for you, but I'm sure it's fun for the rogue so there's some balance there. Your fun will surely come after stunlocking gets nerfed into oblivion and Bliz spends the next 6 months trying to make rogues not suck shit until they figure something out.
This may come as a surprise to you, but I wasn't attempting to demonize people who play Rogues (because that would be ridiculous), but rather state that it's bullshit game design and a failure on Blizzard's part.
For the rogue it's basically like having a "Free Kill" ability on a 3 minute cooldown.
The Rogue gets to use it and then wait.
The guy who it gets used on doesn't have a chance.
And since the Rogue isn't gonna go after the SAME guy over and over every 30 seconds, it never evens out for the people getting killed without a chance to fight back.
I wonder if that demon hunter in Azshara will still be there after the goblins space-nuke it in Cataclysm?
Necromancers and Runemasters would have been nice as well, but Death Knights shot down both of those at once.
Blademasters are pretty much Warriors (although I did like that one Blademaster idea from a while back where they dual-wielded and then had a two-hander equipped in their relic slot that they would use for certain skills).
Most of the other WC3 hero units are either not workable or too heavily tied to race (Dreadlord, Mountain King, Tauren Chieftain). I guess Shadow Hunter or Warden might be able to be tweaked enough that they could be different from existing classes, but they'd still just be dps (unless they worked evasion tanking in or something) and are also pretty heavily tied to their respective races.
Funnily enough, I actually think Brewmaster would be the easiest of the hero units to convert into a full fledged class. Also, it wouldn't be too hard a stretch to make them a tank/heals/dps hybrid (though tanking would probably have to be a Drunken Master style evasion tanking).
They had ok magic, ok melee, the best debuffs and second best buffs I think (second to White Mages?). I just liked the overall mix concept. Buffing the party somewhat, tossing in offheals to help out the dedicated healer, greatly hindering the enemy and joining in on attack chains to help boost them.
But yeah, a class model like that just wouldn't work in the current WoW battle system. You'd almost have to have, I don't know, something like the Stagger system FF13 has maybe?
Enhancement Shamans are *kind* of the closest we have to something like it at the moment. Up in melee, flinging spells, able to throw not completely gimped heals, totem party enhancements... I guess.
The next hero class has to:
1.) Fit in with the expansion's theme somehow.
2.) Be non-plate, as the DK was one.
3.) Probably be a caster and/or healer of sorts.
I'm thinking we'll face off against the Naga and Queen Azshara after Deathwing is taken care of, so think of a class that may fit in with them.
Steam Profile
Yeah... I think they might have even hinted we might even see multiple per expansion sometimes.
Yeah...
:P
This IS bullshit.
I mean, Rogues have to hit, run and hide?
What's next? Mages having to unload lots of control to lock someone down?
Or a Warlock crippling others?
Or a Warrior going from target to target?
It's horse shit.
Wait.
No it's not.
It's practically in the NAME OF THE FUCKING CLASS.
Well, the problem with debuff classes is that debuffs are incredibly powerful and unbalancing. Mostly, they are either mostly useless or they are overpowered and required. Spreading them around to other classes could work pretty well though. Essentially whereas some classes get 1 or 2 debuffs, Warlocks could cast ALL of them, just not at the same time (letting them easily fill for any debuffs your comp might be missing)
Of course, the big issue with Warlocks and Debuffing was always Curse of Agony. (Which they are FINALLY solving). You can't make a debuff class and then have their debuffs be mutually exclusive with their damage abilities. That's just fucking stupid.
And they could mix their two subtypes and still keep the minor Mastery bonus for having all the same type of armor... so Cloth and Reinforced Cloth pieces would all count together, etc.
Then you'd be able to have all new versions of the exact same class roles! And could call them Hero classes and everything.
Silliness.
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=11305
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=31224
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=26669
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2094
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=26889
Yes rogues have it so hard in pvp. That doesn't count any of the stuns, silences, or disarming rogues have to use, that's just defensive cooldowns. 5 defensive cooldowns. In addition to being able to passively snare and mortal strike enemies, at which time that enemy probably won't be able to attack back anyway so it doesn't matter. Don't even bother to take into account the fact that rogues can stand toe to toe with most people in pvp these days, but hey, i'm sure you're horrendous 3 min cooldowns are keeping you down in the world of pvp, especially when some classes who are a whole hell of a lot squishier than rogues have much much less survivability and damage potential. But go ahead and keep on pretending like rogues got dealt a band hand in pvp, someday someone might believe you.
You're missing the point I was making.