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Harsh prison sentences are fucking over black families big time.

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    TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Don't have one, but the Law opens for it. The case that fits best is : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leandro_Andrade

    Guy with 2 shoplifting charges for videotapes got 50 years.

    No, the law isn't open for someone getting 3 strikes from 3 shoplifting charges. Again, you need to have theft-related priors in order to get charged with a felony for shop lifting. I'll give you that it's pretty lame to try and put someone away for 2 shoplifting charges, but once you've got residential burglary and escaping from prison, get your ass in jail.

    TehSloth on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    Don't have one, but the Law opens for it. The case that fits best is : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leandro_Andrade

    Guy with 2 shoplifting charges for videotapes got 50 years.

    way to move the goalposts. this wasn't some kid who got railroaded on shoplifting a couple small things, this was a lifelong criminal who continued his life of crime after previous convictions for:
    petty theft, residential burglary, transportation of marijuana, and escape from prison

    He couldn't keep his nose clean on his 3rd chance, so I'm fine with him serving 50 years instead breaking into people's houses again.

    SaraLuna on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The pettiest of petty recidivism is worth an effective life sentence?

    OptimusZed on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's pretty impossible for me to understand how anyone rational is in favor of the three strike/mandatory minimum combo the U.S. has going on.

    I mean, in the example just discussed, three minor crimes results in the state pay to put this dude in prison for functionally the rest of his life. And this is the outcome we want? It doesn't make sense on any kind of level, especially since it rapidly starts cutting into other state services (and raising taxes.)

    ed: and yes, it is fucking crazy talk to say that preventing him from possibly committing another nonviolent burglary is worth the million+ dollars (if not more) that the state will spend on his sentence.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
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    Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    The pettiest of petty recidivism is worth an effective life sentence?

    I could debate the specifics of the law. Like how a crime commited as a juvenile can count as a strike 20 years later, I can't really see how that would change things.


    Besides its not me paying the 47k $ a year to keep them locked up anyways.

    Kipling217 on
    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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    TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's pretty impossible for me to understand how anyone rational is in favor of the three strike/mandatory minimum combo the U.S. has going on.

    I mean, in the example just discussed, three minor crimes results in the state pay to put this dude in prison for functionally the rest of his life. And this is the outcome we want? It doesn't make sense on any kind of level, especially since it rapidly starts cutting into other state services (and raising taxes.)

    Look, if we could just kill people who clearly have no intention of becoming honest citizens then I'd be fine with that. When you get busted for residential burglary and then continue to steal after getting out or even escaping from jail, you're a liability to society. I don't think we should just throw them in jail either, but that's the humane option.

    TehSloth on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Atomika on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's pretty impossible for me to understand how anyone rational is in favor of the three strike/mandatory minimum combo the U.S. has going on.

    I mean, in the example just discussed, three minor crimes results in the state pay to put this dude in prison for functionally the rest of his life. And this is the outcome we want? It doesn't make sense on any kind of level, especially since it rapidly starts cutting into other state services (and raising taxes.)

    Look, if we could just kill people who clearly have no intention of becoming honest citizens then I'd be fine with that. When you get busted for residential burglary and then continue to steal after getting out or even escaping from jail, you're a liability to society. I don't think we should just throw them in jail either, but that's the humane option.

    No, it's the fucking stupid "solution." The humane solution would be to attack the persistent social problems that cause people to turn to repeated crime for their subsistence. Despite stupid crime dramas, most people would rather have a stable, aboveboard life than a risky, criminal one in which they're poor anyway. The problem with this is that it requires more thought and effort than saying "well since we can't just shoot'em all, we have to throw them in jail" (and that there's no multimillion dollar lobby in favor of it, as there is with prisons.)

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    It's pretty impossible for me to understand how anyone rational is in favor of the three strike/mandatory minimum combo the U.S. has going on.

    I mean, in the example just discussed, three minor crimes results in the state pay to put this dude in prison for functionally the rest of his life. And this is the outcome we want? It doesn't make sense on any kind of level, especially since it rapidly starts cutting into other state services (and raising taxes.)

    Look, if we could just kill people who clearly have no intention of becoming honest citizens then I'd be fine with that. When you get busted for residential burglary and then continue to steal after getting out or even escaping from jail, you're a liability to society. I don't think we should just throw them in jail either, but that's the humane option.

    Ah so, you're a monster

    Good to know

    override367 on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Couscous on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    override367 on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price
    The number of Christians who preach forgiveness one second and then advocate locking up criminals for life or basically torturing them the next freaks me out. Forgiveness apparently doesn't apply to pedophiles, rapists, anybody who injures anybody close to you, and anybody who stole your bike.

    Couscous on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.

    SaraLuna on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What's hilarious is we came frighteningly close to a situation where selling 3 M rated games to a minor would lead to 50 years in prison because of mandatory sentencing and terribly written laws.
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.


    Well you may not be in favor of just gunning down the entire prison population like TehSloth is, but you're only one notch below him on the "Fuck them all, forever" scale

    override367 on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    again, I was unaware that selling m-rated games to minors was a violent felony.

    SaraLuna on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Oh, I get it, but it's just a hard sell.

    Most people aren't criminals and don't associate with criminals, so campaigning to reduce a very specific ethnic/gender/socio-economic niche's troubles with criminality and recidivism mostly falls on deaf ears.


    Even The Coz is mostly like, "Hey, fuck that noise. How about we try some accountability?"

    Atomika on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    again, I was unaware that selling m-rated games to minors was a violent felony.

    I said close, during the big push in various states a rather large number of state and federal legislators wanted to make selling M rated games to a minor roughly the same crime as porking your 8 year old niece

    override367 on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    residential burglary isn't a violent felony either

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Hockey Johnston on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What's hilarious is we came frighteningly close to a situation where selling 3 M rated games to a minor would lead to 50 years in prison because of mandatory sentencing and terribly written laws.
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.


    Well you may not be in favor of just gunning down the entire prison population like TehSloth is, but you're only one notch below him on the "Fuck them all, forever" scale

    Expecting people to go to jail after committing crimes is not unreasonable. I don't think having escalating punishments for repeat offenders is unreasonable.

    If someone chooses to break the law again after being told "OK, if you mess up again, you don't get any more do-overs. For real this time" Then yes, fuck them - they chose not to participate in society. I'm pretty sure that makes them the sociopath, not me.

    SaraLuna on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Anybody who actually wants to prevent repeat offenses needs to stop thinking in terms of "punishment" and start thinking in terms of "rehabilitation."

    Because threat of punishment obviously doesn't work on a large scale.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What's hilarious is we came frighteningly close to a situation where selling 3 M rated games to a minor would lead to 50 years in prison because of mandatory sentencing and terribly written laws.
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.


    Well you may not be in favor of just gunning down the entire prison population like TehSloth is, but you're only one notch below him on the "Fuck them all, forever" scale

    Expecting people to go to jail after committing crimes is not unreasonable. I don't think having escalating punishments for repeat offenders is unreasonable.

    If someone chooses to break the law again after being told "OK, if you mess up again, you don't get any more do-overs. For real this time" Then yes, fuck them - they chose not to participate in society. I'm pretty sure that makes them the sociopath, not me.


    No that really makes you a sociopath. Someone who robs because he sees no other option isn't a sociopath. Someone with no social conscience is a sociopath. You are one of these.

    If someone goes around raping women every five minutes I'm open to the idea of throwing him in jail and tossing away the key - the problem is that this doesn't apply to a very, very large number of people who mandatory minimums and three strikes have extinguished.

    override367 on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.

    Atomika on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.
    Job skills.

    Why in the holy flying fuck aren't we teaching people we're planning to release back out into the world how to make money without resorting to crime?

    You'd think it was common goddamn sense.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What's hilarious is we came frighteningly close to a situation where selling 3 M rated games to a minor would lead to 50 years in prison because of mandatory sentencing and terribly written laws.
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.


    Well you may not be in favor of just gunning down the entire prison population like TehSloth is, but you're only one notch below him on the "Fuck them all, forever" scale

    Expecting people to go to jail after committing crimes is not unreasonable. I don't think having escalating punishments for repeat offenders is unreasonable.

    If someone chooses to break the law again after being told "OK, if you mess up again, you don't get any more do-overs. For real this time" Then yes, fuck them - they chose not to participate in society. I'm pretty sure that makes them the sociopath, not me.

    This is such a shortsighted way of looking at the problem that it's sort of staggering.

    Okay, so you can morally square these sentences in your own mind. That's great, and also completely irrelevant. The problem isn't moral, it's practical.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.
    Job skills.

    Why in the holy flying fuck aren't we teaching people we're planning to release back out into the world how to make money without resorting to crime?

    You'd think it was common goddamn sense.

    They were talking about doing that around here but people were infuriated that someone could just "Get sent to prison and not have to worry about student loan debt!"

    As if having job skills or a degree balances out you know, being a felon

    override367 on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Someone who robs because he sees no other option isn't a sociopath.

    The guy we're talking about stole videotapes from kmart, I'm pretty sure society didn't leave him with no other choice than to catch ace ventura on the cheap.

    When he was breaking into people's houses, I think it's a fair bet he was taking tvs and vcrs to pawn, and not food for his kids.

    SaraLuna on
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    TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    What's hilarious is we came frighteningly close to a situation where selling 3 M rated games to a minor would lead to 50 years in prison because of mandatory sentencing and terribly written laws.
    Couscous wrote: »
    And here we are with the same problem we always have with this issue: defending recidivist criminals.

    This is why progress in the low-income Black communities rarely gets traction.

    Recidivism doesn't mean a person is worthless and should be locked up forever. It means we should work harder to rehabilitate them.

    Yea well it's hard when a nontrivial portion of our population are closet sociopaths like TehSloth and pablo_price and prefer we just line everyone up on the wall and shoot them

    wow, you sure do like putting words into my mouth.


    Well you may not be in favor of just gunning down the entire prison population like TehSloth is, but you're only one notch below him on the "Fuck them all, forever" scale

    Expecting people to go to jail after committing crimes is not unreasonable. I don't think having escalating punishments for repeat offenders is unreasonable.

    If someone chooses to break the law again after being told "OK, if you mess up again, you don't get any more do-overs. For real this time" Then yes, fuck them - they chose not to participate in society. I'm pretty sure that makes them the sociopath, not me.


    No that really makes you a sociopath. Someone who robs because he sees no other option isn't a sociopath. Someone with no social conscience is a sociopath. You are one of these.

    If someone goes around raping women every five minutes I'm open to the idea of throwing him in jail and tossing away the key - the problem is that this doesn't apply to a very, very large number of people who mandatory minimums and three strikes have extinguished.

    What? Yes, someone who robs someone "because he sees no other option" is clearly acting without regard to moral responsibility and social conscience. That would make them a sociopath.

    TehSloth on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.
    Job skills.

    Why in the holy flying fuck aren't we teaching people we're planning to release back out into the world how to make money without resorting to crime?

    You'd think it was common goddamn sense.

    Oh that too, for sure. But you also gotta break the whole "keeping it real" mentality of the criminal element.

    As well, psychoanalysis would be a good tool for profiling the likelihood of repeat offenses.

    Atomika on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Really? So you're saying virtually every retail employee in existence is a sociopath?

    I mean, when I worked at Wal-Mart virtually every employee was guilty of at least $150 in minor theft over the course of a year.

    override367 on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.
    Job skills.

    Why in the holy flying fuck aren't we teaching people we're planning to release back out into the world how to make money without resorting to crime?

    You'd think it was common goddamn sense.

    They were talking about doing that around here but people were infuriated that someone could just "Get sent to prison and not have to worry about student loan debt!"

    As if having job skills or a degree balances out you know, being a felon

    Teach a man to fish and they bitch about not making him work for the lessons.

    Couscous on
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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.

    I.e. we let out half the people and spend way more money on the rest.

    Totally agree.

    Hockey Johnston on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Someone who robs because he sees no other option isn't a sociopath.

    The guy we're talking about stole videotapes from kmart, I'm pretty sure society didn't leave him with no other choice than to catch ace ventura on the cheap.

    When he was breaking into people's houses, I think it's a fair bet he was taking tvs and vcrs to pawn, and not food for his kids.

    Putting aside for a second the fact that you generally need money to, you know, live, and the various problems that lead to crime in the first place, and the fact that criminals are human beings and not trash to be tossed in the garbage, and all of the moral issues

    IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK

    Three strikes has done absolutely nothing to improve anyone's situation, it hasn't lowered recidivism rates, it simply doesn't work.

    override367 on
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    SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Really? So you're saying virtually every retail employee in existence is a sociopath?

    I mean, when I worked at Wal-Mart virtually every employee was guilty of at least $150 in minor theft over the course of a year.

    since you insist on strawmanning every statement I make, I'm going to be ignoring you for the rest of this thread.

    SaraLuna on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.

    I.e. we let out half the people and spend way more money on the rest.

    Totally agree.

    I don't think anyone who's a minor criminal or first time drug dealer should be sent to prison. The chances of them being a criminal again when they get out are higher, and the crimes they're likely to commit are greater: Prison is school for criminals, a school that if you don't pass you get raped or shivved in. How should we penalize them? I mean there are other ways, it at least needs to be seriously looked in to.

    Honestly we're so caught up with punishment, so many people just want to MAKE THEM PAY (for what is often a crime that does no serious harm to the victim, if there even is one), that rationality and pragmatism take a back seat to pitchfork and torches mentality.

    override367 on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.
    Job skills.

    Why in the holy flying fuck aren't we teaching people we're planning to release back out into the world how to make money without resorting to crime?

    You'd think it was common goddamn sense.

    They were talking about doing that around here but people were infuriated that someone could just "Get sent to prison and not have to worry about student loan debt!"

    As if having job skills or a degree balances out you know, being a felon

    Teach a man to fish and they bitch about not making him work for the lessons.
    Maybe they should be whittling bootstraps out of toothbrushes.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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    TehSlothTehSloth Hit Or Miss I Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Really? So you're saying virtually every retail employee in existence is a sociopath?

    I mean, when I worked at Wal-Mart virtually every employee was guilty of at least $150 in minor theft over the course of a year.

    I'm not sure what wasn't clear in my example. When someone decides that they have no option other than to forcefully take something from someone else, they're acting in a way that demonstrates no sense of moral responsibility. Someone who acts this way is a sociopath, it's not just a term for people that you think are "monsters".

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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.

    I.e. we let out half the people and spend way more money on the rest.

    Totally agree.

    That's a bit oversimplified, but basically, yeah.

    Also, we need better funding to expand the State long-term psychiatric inpatient institutions. I've been at a couple of these places, and they're generally pretty humane and pleasant to their "patients." They get regular psychiatric evaluation, don't live in cells, and get all the personal time they want. They just can't ever really leave, as they are psychologically incompatible with polite society.

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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    TehSloth wrote: »
    Really? So you're saying virtually every retail employee in existence is a sociopath?

    I mean, when I worked at Wal-Mart virtually every employee was guilty of at least $150 in minor theft over the course of a year.

    I'm not sure what wasn't clear in my example. When someone decides that they have no option other than to forcefully take something from someone else, they're acting in a way that demonstrates no sense of moral responsibility. Someone who acts this way is a sociopath, it's not just a term for people that you think are "monsters".

    robin hood was a sociopath, eh

    Really one of my least favorite things about D&D is how the term 'sociopath' has become the favorite backhanded insult. Whether someone is a sociopath or not isn't really something you can determine based on the fact that they committed a crime, and even if it was it wouldn't be all that relevant to this discussion anyway.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Recidivism isn't really the fault of the criminal from a practical standpoint. If you think that way, you are incapable of designing a system that will actually produce the results we're looking for.

    Well, it's a two-way street. Premeditated crime is always a choice, and ergo always the fault of the criminal. But the prison system does little to discourage recidivism, and generally just acts as a networking opportunity for those willing to engage in criminal activities when they get out.

    We'd be better if prisoners were getting advanced psychotherapy and counseling in addition to all that time at the gym.

    I.e. we let out half the people and spend way more money on the rest.

    Totally agree.

    That's a bit oversimplified, but basically, yeah.

    Also, we need better funding to expand the State long-term psychiatric inpatient institutions. I've been at a couple of these places, and they're generally pretty humane and pleasant to their "patients." They get regular psychiatric evaluation, don't live in cells, and get all the personal time they want. They just can't ever really leave, as they are psychologically incompatible with polite society.


    That's basically how Star Trek takes care of prisoners if I'm not mistaken

    I like it.
    Dyscord wrote: »
    TehSloth wrote: »
    Really? So you're saying virtually every retail employee in existence is a sociopath?

    I mean, when I worked at Wal-Mart virtually every employee was guilty of at least $150 in minor theft over the course of a year.

    I'm not sure what wasn't clear in my example. When someone decides that they have no option other than to forcefully take something from someone else, they're acting in a way that demonstrates no sense of moral responsibility. Someone who acts this way is a sociopath, it's not just a term for people that you think are "monsters".

    robin hood was a sociopath, eh

    Really one of my least favorite things about D&D is how the term 'sociopath' has become the favorite backhanded insult. Whether someone is a sociopath or not isn't really something you can determine based on the fact that they committed a crime, and even if it was it wouldn't be all that relevant to this discussion anyway.


    Okay I'm willing to say I went a bit far with it, and it was quite a straw man. If anyone honestly thinks we should start putting all the prisoners in ovens or something like he alluded to a few pages ago though, then I'd say he is one by every accepted definition of the word.

    override367 on
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