Options

Harsh prison sentences are fucking over black families big time.

1234568

Posts

  • Options
    Cedar BrownCedar Brown Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    LRG wrote: »
    How are the drug laws institutionally racist, LRG?

    so you're admitting you're completely ignorant of the history of drug prohibition in the U.S.?


    Look up Harry J. Anslinger who waged a race based fear campaign against weed, criminalizing it, and was America's first Drug Czar.

    I mean..... considering the history of this country, did you think the disproportionate incarceration of black males is a huge coincidence?

    I can imagine that higher rates of incarceration correlate with higher rates of poverty. Are you saying that certain drug crimes carry higher sentences because those crimes are mostly perpetrated by black people? And this was done intentionally by racist lawmakers?

    I'm just asking.

    Well, you're not wrong about your first assertion. I'm not saying that drug crimes have higher sentences because those crimes are mostly perpetrated by black people, I'm saying black people are often sentenced more harshly for the same crimes, not to mention are profiled; and yes, these law were placed there intentionally by lawmakers. It's pretty obvious.

    What laws say that black people are supposed to be sentenced more harshly? Isn't that in issue with judges and not the law? If so, the laws aren't racist. The interpretation and execution of the law is flawed then.

    Cedar Brown on
  • Options
    LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Did you miss the part were racism was used to justify the drug laws?

    kinda makes them inherently racist

    Then again there is the history of police brutality and racial profiling in this country which you seem to be unaware of...

    The laws as well as the execution of policing and sentencing can be racist.

    LRG on
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • Options
    PerpetualPerpetual Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    LRG wrote: »
    How are the drug laws institutionally racist, LRG?

    so you're admitting you're completely ignorant of the history of drug prohibition in the U.S.?


    Look up Harry J. Anslinger who waged a race based fear campaign against weed, criminalizing it, and was America's first Drug Czar.

    I mean..... considering the history of this country, did you think the disproportionate incarceration of black males is a huge coincidence?

    I can imagine that higher rates of incarceration correlate with higher rates of poverty. Are you saying that certain drug crimes carry higher sentences because those crimes are mostly perpetrated by black people? And this was done intentionally by racist lawmakers?

    I'm just asking.

    Well, you're not wrong about your first assertion. I'm not saying that drug crimes have higher sentences because those crimes are mostly perpetrated by black people, I'm saying black people are often sentenced more harshly for the same crimes, not to mention are profiled; and yes, these law were placed there intentionally by lawmakers. It's pretty obvious.

    What laws say that black people are supposed to be sentenced more harshly? Isn't that in issue with judges and not the law? If so, the laws aren't racist. The interpretation and execution of the law is flawed then.

    The law says punish crack cocaine usage and sale more severely than powder cocaine usage.

    When it is common knowledge that crack is very common among blacks and powder is very common among rich white people, you can understand how racist laws actually are.

    I mean seriously, saying "laws are neutral, it's only the judges that interpret them are!" is retarded. Laws are made by people who are far from impartial and free of racial bias.

    Perpetual on
  • Options
    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    Did you miss the part were racism was used to justify the drug laws?

    kinda makes them inherently racist

    Then again there is the history of police brutality and racial profiling in this country which you seem to be unaware of...

    The laws as well as the execution of policing and sentencing can be racist.

    A black person being tried for the same crime as a white person under the same circumstances in the United States is far more likely to go to jail. In some places (like Illinois) the difference is kind of astounding.

    Institutionalized racism sounds like the problem here, to me. Perhaps if judges and juries couldn't physically look at the accused, or know them by any name other than 'John Doe', there would be less of an issue. edit: laws like the crack vs powder cocaine bit are part of institutionalized racism, just to be clear.

    Ego on
    Erik
  • Options
    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    It wasn't because crack was a 'black' drug. It was because the crack trade managed to double the murder rate for 14-17,and 18-24 year old black men inside a decade.

    They may be the same chemical, but cracks effects on society were orders of magnitude worse. But by all means keep going with the "5g vs 500g look 100 times worse" crap.

    tinwhiskers on
    6ylyzxlir2dz.png
  • Options
    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?

    valiance on
  • Options
    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?

    This is just a personal theory of mine, but I feel that many relationships are built on the perceived ability to compromise. Some ethnic and gender stereotypes have the reputation for being much more strong-willed and demanding of strict gender roles than others. Black women and Asian men often fit squarely in that paradigm, fairly or not, as do Arab/Persian/Indian men.

    Likely, the question of "attractiveness" have little to nothing to do with the question at hand. Marriage and dating are about forming relationships, and I would wager that few people look for relationships where they're in a constant battle of wills.

    Atomika on
  • Options
    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    How are the drug laws institutionally racist, LRG?
    I mean..... considering the history of this country, did you think the disproportionate incarceration of black males is a huge coincidence?

    black people are more likely to be poor.

    poor people are more likely to commit crimes.

    There you go.

    The problem is poverty not some evil justice system and pretending the mythical evil justice system is oppressing all those murderers is just going to perpetuate the problem not solve it.

    No. Salmon for fail.

    differential sentencing by race:
    http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/03-10_REP_MDRaceIncarceration_AC-MD-RD.pdf
    http://justicepolicy.org/images/upload/07-02_REP_MDMandatoryMinimums_DP-MD.pdf

    racial disparities in drug arrests:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/06/us/06disparities.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

    This above one is especially important because a lot of people have the mistaken idea that half the black community is criminal drug users or at least that black people use drugs more than other races (protip: we don't). White and black rates of drug use (per capita) are about the same http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k7/popDensity/popDensity.htm
    , yet blacks are imprisoned far out of proportion to their criminality. http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/05/04/targeting-blacks

    disparities in sentencing:
    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/170062.html

    So yeah, poverty is part of it, but racism has a lot to do with it. Now take the institutionalized racism you've seen here in the criminal justice system (and this is just the tip of the iceberg) and apply it to employment and other areas of life as well D: example: a study has indicated that white felons get more job interviews than black nonoffenders-- see: http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publications/papers/2002/WP-02-37.pdf and http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

    valiance on
  • Options
    SliderSlider Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I was driving down the freeway the other day and suddenly all lanes of traffic slammed on their brakes. What is the reason for this occurence? I automatically assumed there was a traffic accident or somehow a police officer was involved.

    In actuality, it was caused by about 30-40 black men parked on the shoulder of the freeway having, what appeared to be, some type of get-together.

    Most looked to be part of a motorcycle group, but I also saw 4-5 vehicles parked as well.

    They had cups/glasses, were talking, laughing, and drinking whatever.

    I had never seen this before, this blatant disregard of, well, common sense, at least...and probably a few laws, too.

    And they were ALL black. Why did they have to be black...

    I don't know if there is anything to be learned there. Probably not. I just wanted to share the story.

    I'm just sick of stereotypes and racial divides.

    Slider on
  • Options
    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I believe the problem for African Americans and a lot of poverty stricken groups is that misery loves company and when people see someone doing well, they get envious and try to pull them into the shit rather than get pulled out themselves.

    I am still reading on page 3 but this was such a nice thread to read on a sunday night that I wanted to participate before it got locked.

    As far as the race and women go, my father was kind of like Kamina and while he wants me to marry a girl from his country (and damn they are fine), should I marry a white woman or any other race, he would encourage me to go join Team Gurren and pierce heave and earth for our love.
    valiance wrote: »
    LRG wrote: »
    How are the drug laws institutionally racist, LRG?
    I mean..... considering the history of this country, did you think the disproportionate incarceration of black males is a huge coincidence?

    black people are more likely to be poor.

    poor people are more likely to commit crimes.

    There you go.

    The problem is poverty not some evil justice system and pretending the mythical evil justice system is oppressing all those murderers is just going to perpetuate the problem not solve it.

    No. Salmon for fail.

    differential sentencing by race:
    http://www.justicepolicy.org/images/upload/03-10_REP_MDRaceIncarceration_AC-MD-RD.pdf
    http://justicepolicy.org/images/upload/07-02_REP_MDMandatoryMinimums_DP-MD.pdf

    racial disparities in drug arrests:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/06/us/06disparities.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

    This above one is especially important because a lot of people have the mistaken idea that half the black community is criminal drug users or at least that black people use drugs more than other races (protip: we don't). White and black rates of drug use (per capita) are about the same http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k7/popDensity/popDensity.htm
    , yet blacks are imprisoned far out of proportion to their criminality. http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/05/04/targeting-blacks

    disparities in sentencing:
    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/170062.html

    So yeah, poverty is part of it, but racism has a lot to do with it. Now take the institutionalized racism you've seen here in the criminal justice system (and this is just the tip of the iceberg) and apply it to employment and other areas of life as well D: example: a study has indicated that white felons get more job interviews than black nonoffenders-- see: http://www.northwestern.edu/ipr/publications/papers/2002/WP-02-37.pdf and http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

    I get your point salmon man frandelgearslip, but the drugs targeted in our nation's policy unfairly target black people when a substantial number of the drugs that elicit violence, smuggling, and other criminal activity are affecting other communities. You won't find a black man smoking meth and you don't find bouquets of mary jane flowers blowing up a preschool.

    Granted, you are right that having more poor people means we will have more crime, but the laws are not enforced fairly or equally and don't give people a reason to change.

    RoyceSraphim on
  • Options
    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Meth laws are starting to get much harsher.

    Salvation122 on
  • Options
    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Magus` wrote: »

    The further I thought about it, the weirder it gets. For example, I like white women but greatly prefer the skin tone of Indian or Latin women. So you would, logically, think that black women would be an even greater appeal with darker skin, right? Yeah, no. I don't know why but for some reason it just doesn't.. do it.. for me. I honestly can't explain why. Further yet, I find mixed race blacks (such as Halle Berry) to have a very nice skin tone. To make it EVEN WEIRDER I find the skin tone of black people works AMAZINGLY for the men. Like Taye Diggs is a very handsome man and he's pretty dark in skin tone. I'm really not sure why I think it's good for the men but looks bad for the women.
    Wow, you sound like a typical black man.

    Kitten_Moon on
  • Options
    NeoTomaNeoToma Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."

    NeoToma on
  • Options
    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?
    For the most part, a lot of black women don't find white men attractive. I suspect white men have little interesting in black women as well.

    I never thought about white women and Asian men. I looked up the marriage statistics for them and in 2009, there were an estimated 200,000 Asian husband/white wife vs 534,000 White husband/Asian wife. Do Asians hate each other??

    White husband/black wife are very rare, but they seem to be growing lately according to the Census Bureau "America’s Families and Living Arrangements: 2009" statistics. In 2009, there was 196,000 white husband/black wife marriages. Interesting. o_O
    It was just 117,000 in 2006. An increase of 79,000 marriages between black women and white men in 3 years??? I blame Tyra and Oprah!

    Kitten_Moon on
  • Options
    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."
    I was reading an Essence magazine (for black women) and it had Paula Patton on the cover and it talked about how she's going to be the next Halle Berry. Even in the black community, we promote colorism! Do men not find Kerry Washington, Gabriel Union, Sanaa Lathan, Angela Basset, or Nia Long attractive? Or are real black women celebrities unknown to non blacks?

    Kitten_Moon on
  • Options
    PerpetualPerpetual Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."
    I was reading an Essence magazine (for black women) and it had Paula Patton on the cover and it talked about how she's going to be the next Halle Berry. Even in the black community, we promote colorism! Do men not find Kerry Washington, Gabriel Union, Sanaa Lathan, Angela Basset, or Nia Long attractive? Or are real black women celebrities unknown to non blacks?

    They are very attractive women. Just not my preference, personally speaking.

    Perpetual on
  • Options
    emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    I think it would be helpful to pin point exactly why people don't find black women attractive as often and, you know, work on that.

    I will look up some articles that I read that discussed this, but the long and short of it is: we're considered unfeminine/manly, and our hair sucks.

    Afros are amazing and I wish they would make a come back. Every time I see a dude rocking an afro it makes me wish I was black. God theyre awesome.

    emp123 on
  • Options
    devCharlesdevCharles Gainesville, FLRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The reason a lot of people choose to deal drugs after getting out of prison instead of attempting to become a wage slave is simply that drugs are very lucrative and the job is generally pretty easy. That's so at the heart of the problem of black men going to jail, it's not even funny. The risk of going to jail is certainly there, but I would guess most of the people working in the drug industry have that as a calculated risk in their lives. They probably are living a better life than their neighbors working two jobs to keep up with expense. The Risk/Reward is in favor of dealing drugs to a lot of people. You won't change that, and therefore change incarceration rates of black males, until you alter drug laws.

    devCharles on
    Xbox Live: Hero Protag
    SteamID: devCharles
    twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
  • Options
    Captain UltraCaptain Ultra low resolution pictures of birds Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."
    I was reading an Essence magazine (for black women) and it had Paula Patton on the cover and it talked about how she's going to be the next Halle Berry. Even in the black community, we promote colorism! Do men not find Kerry Washington, Gabriel Union, Sanaa Lathan, Angela Basset, or Nia Long attractive? Or are real black women celebrities unknown to non blacks?

    To be quite honest, I think the second option there might be a real explanation. out of those 5, I never heard of two of them. One of the things I've done is fan-casting, you know, making dream picks for actors/actresses for characters of a book, comic book, whatever. I remember for an X-men fan-casting, I was trying to find a good person for Storm who wasn't Halle Berry, and it took some work, because there are not a whole lot of black women who are big names in Hollywood. Now, I was eventually able to find some, and they are very pretty, absolutely gorgeous, but they weren't getting casted in big roles.

    I think it is a chicken-and-the-egg problem here. Are black women underrepresented in Hollywood/media because non-blacks don't find the attractive? Or do non-black men not find black women attractive because they aren't out there promoted as sex symbols in the media?

    Captain Ultra on
  • Options
    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?

    This is just a personal theory of mine, but I feel that many relationships are built on the perceived ability to compromise. Some ethnic and gender stereotypes have the reputation for being much more strong-willed and demanding of strict gender roles than others. Black women and Asian men often fit squarely in that paradigm, fairly or not, as do Arab/Persian/Indian men.

    Likely, the question of "attractiveness" have little to nothing to do with the question at hand. Marriage and dating are about forming relationships, and I would wager that few people look for relationships where they're in a constant battle of wills.

    I'd say you're on to something. I'd be pretty damn cautious about ending up in some 'not without my daughter' type scenario. And its often as much about a person's extended family as it is about them - people from traditional cultures can play when-in-rome pretty well, but sometimes revert when they go home and/or get more heavily involved in an established expat community, which can be a nasty shock for the partner. Humorous all-white example: I read an anecdote the other day about an aussie lawyer who lost the accent really fast when he moved to London. He met a nice girl sometime after, took her for a trip home to meet the family, and readopted his old accent while there. She hated it so much she dumped him...

    Anyway, guys just plain don't have to worry about being exposed to that kind of forced assimilation. They've got more freedom, and will continue to have such until feminism makes considerable inroads outside the western world. BTW, to the dude who argued that black women are on the same level as, say, rural Pakistanis forcing marriage on visiting 15 year old British girls? Because they're allegedly abrasive and "hyper"independant? Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done. Then come back and apologise.

    The thing is, even though white dudes are a lot less likely to indulge in extremes of controlling behaviour (and our culture doesn't condone such), its still acceptable for a white guy to be, shall we say, less than supportive of a wife's life outside the home. There aren't many men out there of any ethnicity who'd be ok with, say, moving cities to support a wife's new job, unless they had nothing going for them where they are. The notion of sacrificing for a partner is still pretty one-sided when it comes to the crunch in all cultures. So its really a case of managing risk rather than eliminating it.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • Options
    surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Humorous all-white example: I read an anecdote the other day about an aussie lawyer who lost the accent really fast when he moved to London. He met a nice girl sometime after, took her for a trip home to meet the family, and readopted his old accent while there. She hated it so much she dumped him...

    Aww that sucks. I love Australian accents :<

    When I was little all my nannies were Antipodean, so they make me feel safe.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    devCharles wrote: »
    The reason a lot of people choose to deal drugs after getting out of prison instead of attempting to become a wage slave is simply that drugs are very lucrative and the job is generally pretty easy. That's so at the heart of the problem of black men going to jail, it's not even funny. The risk of going to jail is certainly there, but I would guess most of the people working in the drug industry have that as a calculated risk in their lives. They probably are living a better life than their neighbors working two jobs to keep up with expense. The Risk/Reward is in favor of dealing drugs to a lot of people. You won't change that, and therefore change incarceration rates of black males, until you alter drug laws.

    It's also because drug dealer is one of the few occupations for which checking the "felony conviction" box on the application isn't an automatic disqualifier. In fact, it may actually be a selling point.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • Options
    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    It wasn't because crack was a 'black' drug. It was because the crack trade managed to double the murder rate for 14-17,and 18-24 year old black men inside a decade.

    They may be the same chemical, but cracks effects on society were orders of magnitude worse. But by all means keep going with the "5g vs 500g look 100 times worse" crap.

    So essentially, because cocaine had a worse effect on the black community than on the white community, we should structure our laws in a way that causes blacks to face harsher punishments than whites.

    Am I understanding you correctly?

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
  • Options
    LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    to anyone debating crack vs powder and its effects on the community, do you guys ever wonder how cocaine got into the black community?

    There was a man named Gary Webb who wrote a series of articles which investigated CIA-backed contras that sold and distributed crack cocaine in L.A. in the 80s....

    Making a case for crack earning a harsher sentence is an oversimplification when you keep in mind how the crack got into the ghetto in the first place.

    LRG on
  • Options
    LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Perpetual wrote: »
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."
    I was reading an Essence magazine (for black women) and it had Paula Patton on the cover and it talked about how she's going to be the next Halle Berry. Even in the black community, we promote colorism! Do men not find Kerry Washington, Gabriel Union, Sanaa Lathan, Angela Basset, or Nia Long attractive? Or are real black women celebrities unknown to non blacks?

    They are very attractive women. Just not my preference, personally speaking.


    why is anyone in here still talking about personal preference? listen, that means fuck all to this thread about BLACK FAMILIES unless your a black man or black women who intend to have a family with another black person. No one gives a fuck you don't like black women because you think they're too loud or if you cried yourself to sleep because white guys don't like you.

    You guys want to know why black women have low romantic equity with you? Well, it may very well be because of systematic degradation of said women over more than a few hundred years. You've been indoctrinated to find white women attractive, black guys scary, and black women as below you. Even black people have been made to find light skin more attractive and find our natural hair unmanageable or repulsive.

    Still, unless your a black man or women who wants to start a black family, who you want to shag has fuck all to do with this thread. Anyone who "contributed" to that conversation in this thread should really be ashamed of themselves.

    LRG on
  • Options
    SpindizzySpindizzy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Understanding the extent peoples personnal preference plays in choosing a partner is surely the whole point (if poorly articulated by some). The pool of potential partners and gender imbalances creates situations that impact upon behaviour (as suggested by the OP). If black women in this example can't escape the confines of race as a factor for finding a prtner (or are less able to do so than other ethnic groups) they have restricted choices so may alter their expectations or behaviour.

    I'm not arguing that systematic racial undermining of black values isn't also important. But, in relation to this point about gender imbalance within communities, understanding the limits and borders of inter-racial unions is just a valid way to look for solutions to fixing the problem.

    Spindizzy on
  • Options
    PerpetualPerpetual Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    Perpetual wrote: »
    NeoToma wrote: »
    Ouch.

    But I imagine as a black girl it must get really annoying for people to be like "I love black girls! Like Halle Berry, or Beyonce, or Rosario Dawson..."
    I was reading an Essence magazine (for black women) and it had Paula Patton on the cover and it talked about how she's going to be the next Halle Berry. Even in the black community, we promote colorism! Do men not find Kerry Washington, Gabriel Union, Sanaa Lathan, Angela Basset, or Nia Long attractive? Or are real black women celebrities unknown to non blacks?

    They are very attractive women. Just not my preference, personally speaking.


    why is anyone in here still talking about personal preference? listen, that means fuck all to this thread about BLACK FAMILIES unless your a black man or black women who intend to have a family with another black person. No one gives a fuck you don't like black women because you think they're too loud or if you cried yourself to sleep because white guys don't like you.

    You guys want to know why black women have low romantic equity with you? Well, it may very well be because of systematic degradation of said women over more than a few hundred years. You've been indoctrinated to find white women attractive, black guys scary, and black women as below you. Even black people have been made to find light skin more attractive and find our natural hair unmanageable or repulsive.

    Still, unless your a black man or women who wants to start a black family, who you want to shag has fuck all to do with this thread. Anyone who "contributed" to that conversation in this thread should really be ashamed of themselves.

    Calm the fuck down. She asked a question and I answered it.

    Perpetual on
  • Options
    LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    No. random white guy's personal dating preference has shit to do with "Harsh prison sentences fucking over black families". This is about black women who want black men and the much broader issue of the cycle of incarceration in the black community... really not about white dudes who do or don't want black women. Some troll pushed that line of conversation on the first page and most people ran with it, attempting to give it some sick validation.

    What this is is an execellent example of privilage and white guy's ability to make it about themselves.

    It's not even about "the systematic racial undermining of black values(whatever the fuck that means)". More like the systematic undermining of the black family which has happened since slavery and supported throughout the history of this country in various ways the majority of you seem to be naively unaware of(how are the drug laws institutionally racist, durr)

    but keep trying to convince me the socio-ecomomic issues killing the black family have anything at all to do with if random white guy finds random black girl attractive or even more idiotic as you put it, "the whole point"

    LRG on
  • Options
    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    No. random white guy's personal dating preference has shit to do with "Harsh prison sentences fucking over black families". This is about black women who want black men and the much broader issue of the cycle of incarceration in the black community... really not about white dudes who do or don't want black women. Some troll pushed that line of conversation on the first page and most people ran with it, attempting to give it some sick validation.

    What this is is an execellent example of privilage and white guy's ability to make it about themselves.

    It's not even about "the systematic racial undermining of black values(whatever the fuck that means)". More like the systematic undermining of the black family which has happened since slavery and supported throughout the history of this country in various ways the majority of you seem to be naively unaware of(how are the drug laws institutionally racist, durr)

    but keep trying to convince me the socio-ecomomic issues killing the black family have anything at all to do with if random white guy finds random black girl attractive or even more idiotic as you put it, "the whole point"

    I went back and read the OP and I'd have to agree that there is really only the most tangential connection to personal preference:
    Because most seek husbands of the same race—96% of married black women are married to black men—they are ultimately fishing in the same pool.

    This really became a topic of discussion because ಠ_ರೃ (who is banned btw, presumably for trolling) brought up that OKCupid crap and things snowballed from there... The title of the thread really says it all: this is about how harsh prison sentences are fuckin over the black family... not about whether you think sanaa lathan is hot. now a certain amount of topic creep is to be expected anywhere ( the direction the topic creeped in is probably reflective of privilege), and exogamy is tangentially relevant, but your particular personal preferences are much less so.

    valiance on
  • Options
    geckahngeckahn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    It wasn't because crack was a 'black' drug. It was because the crack trade managed to double the murder rate for 14-17,and 18-24 year old black men inside a decade.

    They may be the same chemical, but cracks effects on society were orders of magnitude worse. But by all means keep going with the "5g vs 500g look 100 times worse" crap.

    So essentially, because cocaine had a worse effect on the black community than on the white community, we should structure our laws in a way that causes blacks to face harsher punishments than whites.

    Am I understanding you correctly?

    method of action in drugs matters big time. And cocaine v crack is a huge example. The results you get from smoking it are much much worse then snorting cocaine. Much higher addiction potential, etc. The two are basically totally different drugs. And that's what the sentencing differences reflect.

    Now I'd be all for getting rid of jail sentences for any drug use, but you need to understand that there is a legitimate reason behind the harsher punishment (assuming the proposition the worse the drug, the more jail time).

    geckahn on
  • Options
    LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The perception of black women by society does have an affect upon the make up of black families, and the power dynamics therein. So it's not entirely unrelated.

    Leitner on
  • Options
    SpindizzySpindizzy Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    A.) The people derailing the thread - have gone.
    B.) The topic is about trying to understand why black families are being 'fucked over'. An alternative look to why this may be based upon the impact of gender inequalities was put forward.
    C.) It wasn't a suggestion that it was the only answer but a way to understand the whole problem facing black communities.

    systematic racial undermining of black values - is a less politically charged way of saying inequality has helped to make black culture in the US the way it is. As i'm sure alot of people would agree here, those in power (i.e. white people) havn't exactly helped the situation and over time and have undermined black peoples self worth (your point)

    Its not idiotic to suggest that part of the reason the gender inbalance has such an impact is because there is little mixing between races in the USA (the point being made through anecdotal evidence in the thread). If black women found it easy to get husbands from other ethnic groups it ceases to be an imbalance. Hence being the 'whole point' when relating to the OP

    Spindizzy on
  • Options
    valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    The Cat wrote: »
    valiance wrote: »
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?

    This is just a personal theory of mine, but I feel that many relationships are built on the perceived ability to compromise. Some ethnic and gender stereotypes have the reputation for being much more strong-willed and demanding of strict gender roles than others. Black women and Asian men often fit squarely in that paradigm, fairly or not, as do Arab/Persian/Indian men.

    Likely, the question of "attractiveness" have little to nothing to do with the question at hand. Marriage and dating are about forming relationships, and I would wager that few people look for relationships where they're in a constant battle of wills.

    I'd say you're on to something. I'd be pretty damn cautious about ending up in some 'not without my daughter' type scenario. And its often as much about a person's extended family as it is about them - people from traditional cultures can play when-in-rome pretty well, but sometimes revert when they go home and/or get more heavily involved in an established expat community, which can be a nasty shock for the partner. Humorous all-white example: I read an anecdote the other day about an aussie lawyer who lost the accent really fast when he moved to London. He met a nice girl sometime after, took her for a trip home to meet the family, and readopted his old accent while there. She hated it so much she dumped him...

    Anyway, guys just plain don't have to worry about being exposed to that kind of forced assimilation. They've got more freedom, and will continue to have such until feminism makes considerable inroads outside the western world. BTW, to the dude who argued that black women are on the same level as, say, rural Pakistanis forcing marriage on visiting 15 year old British girls? Because they're allegedly abrasive and "hyper"independant? Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done. Then come back and apologise.

    The thing is, even though white dudes are a lot less likely to indulge in extremes of controlling behaviour (and our culture doesn't condone such), its still acceptable for a white guy to be, shall we say, less than supportive of a wife's life outside the home. There aren't many men out there of any ethnicity who'd be ok with, say, moving cities to support a wife's new job, unless they had nothing going for them where they are. The notion of sacrificing for a partner is still pretty one-sided when it comes to the crunch in all cultures. So its really a case of managing risk rather than eliminating it.

    So asian men and black women are perceived as being less amenable to compromise than asian women and black men (or maybe the relevant comparison is to the white women black men are turning to in lieu of black women)? This does seem to jibe with conventional wisdom/scuttlebutt/stuff I've heard about different racial atttitudes/stereotype.

    This (old) TNC post might be relevant:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2010/03/the-work-factor/37165/
    The Work Factor

    Mar 8 2010, 10:23 AM ET
    In all the hysteria around the dating lives of single black women, there's always this discussion of whether white men, and to some extent black men, actually find black women attractive. Many factors, stretching across races and political ideology, are at work here. There is history--the corollary to the white supremacist notion of lazy and stupid black men, has always been overly masculine, coarse, unattractive black women. There is a peculiar, but human, reaction to demographics: interracial marriage has grown exponentially since the '60s, but black men marrying non-black women is still a relatively rare event. But we'd rather obsess over the motives of the eight percent of married black men who have non-black spouses, and pretend that those fictional motives say something about the remaining 92 percent do not.

    This is the black version of the kind of hysteria that that tends to crop up in women's magazines ("13 reasons why you're inadequate"). And there's more--the lower marriage rate of black women, old angst between both genders, and the broader sense that the black experience is somehow different and perverted. But with all of that said, I think it's worth remembering that a relationship is work between two individuals, and that many of us have a bias toward minimizing that work.

    I once had a white co-worker who in a candid moment, talked about a black woman who he dated for few months. He liked her quite a bit, but ultimately ended the relationship because he could not cotton to the idea of raising biracial kids--and thus black kids--in this country. It was work that, when he looked into his heart, he realized he just wasn't willing to do.

    Though we came at it from different places, I instantly related to his story. As I said in comments last week, I like to think that if I were single, I would seriously date whoever. In fact, when seriously imagine myself dating interracially, the further I move away from black, the more work I imagine. To be crude, the scale runs roughly from Puerto-Ricans in East Harlem (a minimal amount of labor) to a blonde from Texas (Herculean). You think about the work of an ordinary relationship, and you pile on to it, the looks on the street, the awkward explaining to family, the extra weight of failure, and you just say "Why bother?"

    I think, though I don't know, that for a number of white men looking at black women, there must be a similar thought process. The black-white chasm is unlike anything else in this country, hence comparing dating between whites and Latinos or whites and Asians doesn't do it justice. None of those relationships bring to bear the crushing weight of the legacy of white supremacy in the manner that black-white relationships do. It's intimidating to bring that with you into a relationship, and I suspect, while all the factors I listed are at work, equally at work is the "Why bother?" impulse.

    Again, this is the kind of post that explains but does not excuse. In point of fact, all relationships are work. It's not clear that, say, getting past race will be any harder than getting past the fact that your spouse doesn't like to drink or drinks too much, or that he or she goes to church every week and you haven't been in five years. I tend to think that after a few months race likely recedes into the background and you move to the mundane work of building a life

    But that said, I think women should remember that men--all men--are often fucking scared and intimidated. I know a lot of women are offended by lad magazines, but their subscription base says a lot about precisely how scared men are. And not "scared of a commitment" or "intimated by your success," but literally scared of women. No one likes rejection. No man walks into the bar and says "You know what will be awesome? If I strike out repeatedly tonight." Very often, men--no matter the race--don't approach the woman they're most attracted to--they approach the woman who they think they have the best shot at.

    For the record, I think that's generally a mistake, but it's an understandable one. When we look at all these factors, and try to suss out what's actually going on, I think it's worth turning down the temperature a little and remembering that you're talking about human beings.

    of course he just discusses racial differences as being distance and thus work, doesn't really shed much of a light on the differences in exogamy between the sexes, but I think the work theory goes well with what you two were saying earlier

    there's also this racist drivel, which.. maybe has some merit?
    under spoiler tags so right thinking folks can avoid potentially mind polluting idiocy
    his thesis is essentially that differences in body fat levels correlate to exogamy? I don't even know...
    http://www.isteve.com/islovecolorblind.htm

    valiance on
  • Options
    LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    guys, the women in question want black mates of comparable education and income. The solution to this problem isn't telling them to marry interracially and in the same breath telling them other races don't want them. None of that matters because these women want black mates of comparable education and income

    explain how the socio-economic conditions that push black males into the prison system have anything to do with black women getting on some white dick?

    if black women found it easy to get husbands of other races, how would that fix the hugely disproportional rates of incarnation of black men which is causing the gender inequality?

    LRG on
  • Options
    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It would reduce the number of single mother families that some would say increases the rate of incarceration among males, and single motherhood among females?

    I feel like this is a good place to make a reference to the Tron Carter trial.

    Jars on
  • Options
    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Talking about black females and how it relates to the subject
    Part of the marriage problem is that in America, race is important, whereas in other nations, nationalism is important. In America, I have to justify myself for dating a woman of another race because I know I will be asked about it, whereas in other nations, I can just say, "fuck off" and people will know to let it be.

    As my white friend said, "Fuck it, just choose the one you love." and "Black people are recovering from a 200 year campaign to break their spirit."

    The marriage tendencies of the black female towards other races and the tendencies of other races towards her contribute to this problem, not on the level of pouring gas on a fire, more on the level of tossing another log.

    Talking about drugs laws toward the black community
    Someone earlier commented on the silly goosery of the war on drugs and its effect on the black community. Its not the imbalance per se that is a problem but the perception of the imbalance that is most damaging. When people perceive that they are not being treated fairly, they start to loose any incentive to play the game. Why should a black man adhere to the laws when he is going to be prosecuted differently and receive harsher punishments? Its not like he has a chance at earning a better living and providing for his family.

    I only apply this logic to the possession laws and not to outright theft and violence. Drug use can be curtailed by therapy and community support. The other crimes that derive from drug use can be debated from here to doomsday but concentrating on the drug use will significantly curtail these crimes in black communities.

    I concede that crack cocaine engendered more violence violence during the 80s compared to cocaine but cocaine is the primary ingredient in crack. My sense is that it should be prosecuted harder due to the fact it is being smuggled across the border and contributes more to violence in America and Mexico.

    Wow, that was disjointed, I frankly see the old cycles of prosecution and enforcement as being outdated compared to the tactical reality on the ground. As long as there is a market for drugs, someone will sell them. Targeting the end user with arrest and execution (china) is impractical in this day and age because people have a different outlook. Due to the state of life in poorer black communities, there a fatalism in people's lives that makes them not care about jail, since they see their existence as hollow and pointless. Without a cultural shift away from high end drugs that facilitate the market, low end drugs will still be supplied.

    RoyceSraphim on
  • Options
    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    No. random white guy's personal dating preference has shit to do with "Harsh prison sentences fucking over black families". This is about black women who want black men and the much broader issue of the cycle of incarceration in the black community... really not about white dudes who do or don't want black women. Some troll pushed that line of conversation on the first page and most people ran with it, attempting to give it some sick validation.

    What this is is an execellent example of privilage and white guy's ability to make it about themselves.

    It's not even about "the systematic racial undermining of black values(whatever the fuck that means)". More like the systematic undermining of the black family which has happened since slavery and supported throughout the history of this country in various ways the majority of you seem to be naively unaware of(how are the drug laws institutionally racist, durr)

    but keep trying to convince me the socio-ecomomic issues killing the black family have anything at all to do with if random white guy finds random black girl attractive or even more idiotic as you put it, "the whole point"

    Really awesome job with the assumption that he is white.

    Seriously dude, you are frothing at the mouth so much it's just embarrassing.

    Protein Shakes on
  • Options
    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    No. random white guy's personal dating preference has shit to do with "Harsh prison sentences fucking over black families". This is about black women who want black men and the much broader issue of the cycle of incarceration in the black community... really not about white dudes who do or don't want black women. Some troll pushed that line of conversation on the first page and most people ran with it, attempting to give it some sick validation.

    What this is is an execellent example of privilage and white guy's ability to make it about themselves.

    It's not even about "the systematic racial undermining of black values(whatever the fuck that means)". More like the systematic undermining of the black family which has happened since slavery and supported throughout the history of this country in various ways the majority of you seem to be naively unaware of(how are the drug laws institutionally racist, durr)

    but keep trying to convince me the socio-ecomomic issues killing the black family have anything at all to do with if random white guy finds random black girl attractive or even more idiotic as you put it, "the whole point"

    Really awesome job with the assumption that he is white.

    Seriously dude, you are frothing at the mouth so much it's just embarrassing.


    Couldn't the conclusion be drawn that since all African Americans are part white, that this is an issue for white people as well?

    But honestly, part of being not racist means letting white people talk [/Malcolm X before Hajj was an idiot]

    Also, Captain Ultra, your post has been the most appealing of this entire thread.

    RoyceSraphim on
  • Options
    Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2010
    geckahn wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    It wasn't because crack was a 'black' drug. It was because the crack trade managed to double the murder rate for 14-17,and 18-24 year old black men inside a decade.

    They may be the same chemical, but cracks effects on society were orders of magnitude worse. But by all means keep going with the "5g vs 500g look 100 times worse" crap.

    So essentially, because cocaine had a worse effect on the black community than on the white community, we should structure our laws in a way that causes blacks to face harsher punishments than whites.

    Am I understanding you correctly?

    method of action in drugs matters big time. And cocaine v crack is a huge example. The results you get from smoking it are much much worse then snorting cocaine. Much higher addiction potential, etc. The two are basically totally different drugs. And that's what the sentencing differences reflect.

    Now I'd be all for getting rid of jail sentences for any drug use, but you need to understand that there is a legitimate reason behind the harsher punishment (assuming the proposition the worse the drug, the more jail time).

    Except this is bullocks - we don't make similar distinctions with other drugs. For instance, it doesn't matter if you're smoking marijuana or putting its seeds into cookies and consuming them that way. In the eyes of the law, possession is what matters.

    Protein Shakes on
Sign In or Register to comment.