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Harsh prison sentences are fucking over black families big time.

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    PicardathonPicardathon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Dyscord wrote: »
    devCharles wrote: »
    The reason a lot of people choose to deal drugs after getting out of prison instead of attempting to become a wage slave is simply that drugs are very lucrative and the job is generally pretty easy. That's so at the heart of the problem of black men going to jail, it's not even funny. The risk of going to jail is certainly there, but I would guess most of the people working in the drug industry have that as a calculated risk in their lives. They probably are living a better life than their neighbors working two jobs to keep up with expense. The Risk/Reward is in favor of dealing drugs to a lot of people. You won't change that, and therefore change incarceration rates of black males, until you alter drug laws.

    It's also because drug dealer is one of the few occupations for which checking the "felony conviction" box on the application isn't an automatic disqualifier. In fact, it may actually be a selling point.

    "Freakonomics" had a pretty big section on this.

    Street level drug dealers get paid like crap. They get less than minimum wage, and a good portion of them are either combining drug dealing with a minimum wage job or are looking for minimum wage work.
    The problem is that many of the people who work as drug dealers can't work at a McDonald's. They don't speak "proper" English well enough to do so, and they aren't aware enough of mainstream culture outside of the inner city, meaning that they can't effectively interact from someone who isn't there. This is certainly an issue of racial privilege, but at the present there are a large number of people in the inner city who are unemployable outside of drug dealing.

    In addition, a felony conviction is not a plus for someone looking to be a drug dealer. The people in charge would rather employ people who are calm, sit at their corner and wait for their junkies. A former convict could possibly go and shoot someone from a rival gang and start up a drug war when the bosses had no interest in one. Hotheads are bad people to employ, regardless of profession.

    The underlying issue is a culture clash. As great as plurality is, the abrasiveness between white mainstream culture and black urban culture prevents blacks from getting easy jobs in the city. Unfortunately, the cultural differences are a result of slavery and racism that continues to today, and whatever solution would probably start up well meaning but end up being a mess. Beats me as to how to solve it.

    Picardathon on
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    Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Magus` wrote: »

    The further I thought about it, the weirder it gets. For example, I like white women but greatly prefer the skin tone of Indian or Latin women. So you would, logically, think that black women would be an even greater appeal with darker skin, right? Yeah, no. I don't know why but for some reason it just doesn't.. do it.. for me. I honestly can't explain why. Further yet, I find mixed race blacks (such as Halle Berry) to have a very nice skin tone. To make it EVEN WEIRDER I find the skin tone of black people works AMAZINGLY for the men. Like Taye Diggs is a very handsome man and he's pretty dark in skin tone. I'm really not sure why I think it's good for the men but looks bad for the women.
    Wow, you sound like a typical black man.

    I'm black? ... awesome!

    Magus` on
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    jothkijothki Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    valiance wrote: »
    I suspect on Monday Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic will have something to say about the article from the OP, it will be the smartest thing written about it, and then we'll all be able to go home.

    Alternately, scan his archives for every post on black relationships, and most of the questions/confusions from this thread will be cleared up. That dude is a fine writer.

    Yes. This.

    So what's the deal with differing rates of exogamy between men and women?
    Why do black men marry white women more than black women marry white men?
    Why do asian women marry white men more than asian men marry white women?

    I suspect the media and stereotypes in general have a lot to do with that. Think about it, how often does Jackie Chan get the girl at the end of a movie he's in? Asian men are pretty frequently desexualized in media, and I imagine that crosses over into the common perception.

    jothki on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    geckahn wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Dyscord wrote: »
    Of course, literacy tests weren't racist either, it was just that black people were the ones who couldn't read.

    The distinction in sentencing between crack and powder cocaine is probably the best-publicized example.

    It wasn't because crack was a 'black' drug. It was because the crack trade managed to double the murder rate for 14-17,and 18-24 year old black men inside a decade.

    They may be the same chemical, but cracks effects on society were orders of magnitude worse. But by all means keep going with the "5g vs 500g look 100 times worse" crap.

    So essentially, because cocaine had a worse effect on the black community than on the white community, we should structure our laws in a way that causes blacks to face harsher punishments than whites.

    Am I understanding you correctly?

    method of action in drugs matters big time. And cocaine v crack is a huge example. The results you get from smoking it are much much worse then snorting cocaine. Much higher addiction potential, etc. The two are basically totally different drugs. And that's what the sentencing differences reflect.

    Now I'd be all for getting rid of jail sentences for any drug use, but you need to understand that there is a legitimate reason behind the harsher punishment (assuming the proposition the worse the drug, the more jail time).

    I disagree strongly that any legitimate reason exists.

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Something people need to understand, street dealers are cannon fodder, their arrest is nothing compared to the bigger picture and the arrest of one thousand, ten thousand, or a hundred thousand are nothing to the cartels that pay them. They are a cost of doing business, a write off at the bottom of a margin. Fighting the drug war at the street level does nothing in the large conflict and never comes close to encroaching on the territory of our enemies.

    Targeting the end user nets similar results due to 1 single solitary fact that allows the enemy to achieve victory despite these losses.
    THERE ARE ALWAYS MORE!

    RoyceSraphim on
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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I think the only way you can make this thread worse is if you include some religion bashing.


    Seriously, going from "black families suffer from the incarceration of young black males" to detailed explanations of exactly what kind of chicks posters prefer to "lol I think putting someone in jail for 50 years over stealing a bunch of videotapes is a GREAT IDEA" makes this thread an awesome read but guys wtf?

    Julius on
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    RanadielRanadiel Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Let's talk about (robot)unicorns! And rainbows! And faeries! And dolphins!

    Just kidding.

    Back on the original subject, I do remember reading a study where it was theorized that black men marrying white women was considered a "status" thing, so the poster that previously mentioned it was not too far off.

    It probably doesn't help the way that black women are sexualized, trivialized and degrated in the rap culture. And that women are literally lining up to star in videos and productions that continue the trend, although I'm sure they have their own reasons. Black women are increasingly seen as the kind of woman you mess around with, not the one you commit to, because they come with too much baggage emotional or otherwise - often caused by previous relationships with other black men. There is also a large amount of white women that are only attracted to black men, and will often go out of their way to seek them out and please them. The existing stereotype, combined with increased competition from females of other races, makes for a difficult situation for black women seeking a black male.

    One of my earlier posts was commented on, saying that my explaination offered up a depressing outlook of the male character. Not all men are like that - I myself don't feel that way when I look for a mate. I look for a partner - an equal- and I have yet to discriminate against someone simply based on their race. I have a going theory though that the more masculine a man is, the more he seeks out a submissive partner. Culturally, black men tend to develop hyper-masculine attitudes when it comes to women. Black females, many of which are raised to be independant by their own mothers, refuse to take on a submissive role and demand a relationship where they are considered an equal. This is a turn off to the hyper-masculine black male, causing them to seek out submissive women who they can lord over.

    Naturally this doesn't apply to everyone, but it's what I think.

    Ranadiel on
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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »

    It probably doesn't help the way that black women are sexualized, trivialized and degrated in the rap culture. And that women are literally lining up to star in videos and productions that continue the trend, although I'm sure they have their own reasons. Black women are increasingly seen as the kind of woman you mess around with, not the one you commit to, because they come with too much baggage emotional or otherwise - often caused by previous relationships with other black men. There is also a large amount of white women that are only attracted to black men, and will often go out of their way to seek them out and please them. The existing stereotype, combined with increased competition from females of other races, makes for a difficult situation for black women seeking a black male.

    That is pretty silly. I don't think you can link anything about prison sentencing to thug culture other than it exists due to excessive sentencing and economic neglect. And to the extent that black women do or don't have problems in America, I imagine most don't blame rap culture for the way they are trivialized or degraded.

    Hockey Johnston on
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    RanadielRanadiel Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »

    It probably doesn't help the way that black women are sexualized, trivialized and degrated in the rap culture. And that women are literally lining up to star in videos and productions that continue the trend, although I'm sure they have their own reasons. Black women are increasingly seen as the kind of woman you mess around with, not the one you commit to, because they come with too much baggage emotional or otherwise - often caused by previous relationships with other black men. There is also a large amount of white women that are only attracted to black men, and will often go out of their way to seek them out and please them. The existing stereotype, combined with increased competition from females of other races, makes for a difficult situation for black women seeking a black male.

    That is pretty silly. I don't think you can link anything about prison sentencing to thug culture other than it exists due to excessive sentencing and economic neglect. And to the extent that black women do or don't have problems in America, I imagine most don't blame rap culture for the way they are trivialized or degraded.

    You're going to tell me that you don't think that a lifetime of growing up, watching television and seeing gender roles constantly played out a certain way won't affect a person's thinking in how they conduct themselves?

    And I didn't mean to imply that rap culture was soley responsible for this - if I did then please forgive me. The problems affecting the black community are a literal potporri of issues that include generational poverty, crime, drugs, and lack of education, just to name a few. You can't seriously argue that the rap culture, in the way it portrays gender roles doesn't have some kind of affect though.

    Ranadiel on
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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    o
    You're going to tell me that you don't think that a lifetime of growing up, watching television and seeing gender roles constantly played out a certain way won't affect a person's thinking in how they conduct themselves?

    No, I'm going to tell you that your paragraph hilariously overstated the effects of those things on real people.

    Believe it or not, what artists do doesn't actually matter that much in terms of population-wide behavior.

    Hockey Johnston on
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    RanadielRanadiel Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Hehe, you said artists. Speaking not just about rap, I'd argue that the term today is widely overused and abused in pretty much every aspect.

    Though art is relative. Each to his own I guess!

    Ranadiel on
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    Hehe, you said artists. Speaking not just about rap, I'd argue that the term today is widely overused and abused in pretty much every aspect.

    Though art is relative. Each to his own I guess!

    I would carry this thought further in that the term rap and rapper are now encompassing far too big a group and that I am certain I could get T.I., Nas, to join Bill O' Reily in purging certain "rappers" from the world.

    Back on topic, though it was started by a troll, the sexual identity of black women is something to consider in an intellectual manner as it relates to the article. The disparity within the United States of America's well intended drug law's enforcement has also created a significant crisis within the black community.

    A conflict has arisen in the thread concerning the problem, everyone is willing to accept and admit that there is a problem with drug enforcement within the black community
    unfairly enforced
    few results
    antagonizes the public and generates apathy toward the law
    Ineffectiveness of the drug laws makes it easier for drug funded gangs to operate

    But there has been no real talk on a solution.

    RoyceSraphim on
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    RanadielRanadiel Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    One thing I want to point out that hasn't been mentioned yet - at least not to my knowledge - is that suburbanite whites who get caught on drug charges are typically able to lawyer up and get the charge reduced to a fine, voluntary rehab, or community service. Poor blacks living in urban areas areas aren't able to afford good lawyers and get a public defender at best.

    This may be another contributing factor toward why whites serve jailtime far less often than blacks for drug offenses.

    Ranadiel on
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    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    LRG wrote: »
    No. random white guy's personal dating preference has shit to do with "Harsh prison sentences fucking over black families". This is about black women who want black men and the much broader issue of the cycle of incarceration in the black community... really not about white dudes who do or don't want black women. Some troll pushed that line of conversation on the first page and most people ran with it, attempting to give it some sick validation.

    What this is is an execellent example of privilage and white guy's ability to make it about themselves.

    It's not even about "the systematic racial undermining of black values(whatever the fuck that means)". More like the systematic undermining of the black family which has happened since slavery and supported throughout the history of this country in various ways the majority of you seem to be naively unaware of(how are the drug laws institutionally racist, durr)

    but keep trying to convince me the socio-ecomomic issues killing the black family have anything at all to do with if random white guy finds random black girl attractive or even more idiotic as you put it, "the whole point"
    There's an uneven ratio of black women to black men. There are 2 million more black women than black men in America. Then you have to mark out all the black men incarcerated, already married, and under 18. The number of available black men shrinks even further. That's when people bring up interracial dating. It "suppose" to help the dating pool and black women will less children born out of wedlock.

    I doubt the rate of black men incarcerated will go down anytime soon. Instead of calling foul about the prison system, the real issue is why are so many black men committing crime in the first place. There's no excuse for them committing crime. I'm black and I have no pity on black men who make poor decisions.

    The only thing I don't understand is War on Drugs. Whites statistically use more drugs, but black men make up the majority locked up in jail and prison. Are white suburban heroins users less dangerous to the white community than black marijuana users are to the black community?

    Kitten_Moon on
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    One thing I want to point out that hasn't been mentioned yet - at least not to my knowledge - is that suburbanite whites who get caught on drug charges are typically able to lawyer up and get the charge reduced to a fine, voluntary rehab, or community service. Poor blacks living in urban areas areas aren't able to afford good lawyers and get a public defender at best.

    This may be another contributing factor toward why whites serve jailtime far less often than blacks for drug offenses.

    Gold STAR!

    RoyceSraphim on
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    Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    clearly, it's because using drugs is a worse decision for black men than it is for whites

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    it was the smallest on the list but
    Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
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    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    Let's talk about (robot)unicorns! And rainbows! And faeries! And dolphins!

    It probably doesn't help the way that black women are sexualized, trivialized and degrated in the rap culture. And that women are literally lining up to star in videos and productions that continue the trend, although I'm sure they have their own reasons. Black women are increasingly seen as the kind of woman you mess around with, not the one you commit to, because they come with too much baggage emotional or otherwise - often caused by previous relationships with other black men. There is also a large amount of white women that are only attracted to black men, and will often go out of their way to seek them out and please them. The existing stereotype, combined with increased competition from females of other races, makes for a difficult situation for black women seeking a black male.
    HA! You'll be lucky to see a black women in rap videos anymore. They've moved on to degrade white and Hispanic women. Rap has moved away from it's intended purpose and has become more of a burden to the black community. Now it's all about materialistic thing, even though 24% of the black population is at or below poverty. It's teaching poor blacks that the only way to success is by music (or sports) than hard work. Rap and sports career don't even last long.

    Interesting point you made about black women not seen as the wife type. I don't think black women are anymore or less emotional than other women, but a lot of black women want to wear the pants in the relationship. That's very unfeminine like. Black women need to work on their public image.

    Kitten_Moon on
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    Kitten_MoonKitten_Moon Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I believe about 60% of the women in jail/prison are there for drugs. Now this War on Drugs is trying to snatch up black women too! The rate is now 1 to 100 for black women. Shouldn't jails and prisons be used to lock up violent people? I don't see how a black person doing drugs in his own home is a danger to me.

    Kitten_Moon on
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Ranadiel wrote: »
    Let's talk about (robot)unicorns! And rainbows! And faeries! And dolphins!

    It probably doesn't help the way that black women are sexualized, trivialized and degrated in the rap culture. And that women are literally lining up to star in videos and productions that continue the trend, although I'm sure they have their own reasons. Black women are increasingly seen as the kind of woman you mess around with, not the one you commit to, because they come with too much baggage emotional or otherwise - often caused by previous relationships with other black men. There is also a large amount of white women that are only attracted to black men, and will often go out of their way to seek them out and please them. The existing stereotype, combined with increased competition from females of other races, makes for a difficult situation for black women seeking a black male.
    HA! You'll be lucky to see a black women in rap videos anymore. They've moved on to degrade white and Hispanic women. Rap has moved away from it's intended purpose and has become more of a burden to the black community. Now it's all about materialistic thing, even though 24% of the black population is at or below poverty. It's teaching poor blacks that the only way to success is by music (or sports) than hard work. Rap and sports career don't even last long.

    Interesting point you made about black women not seen as the wife type. I don't think black women are anymore or less emotional than other women, but a lot of black women want to wear the pants in the relationship. That's very unfeminine like. Black women need to work on their public image.

    Mark my words, some day, some youngster with breast milk still on their breath is going to try to step to T.I., Jay-Z, Dr. Dre, or someone else well established and we will see the mother of all ass whoopings!

    RoyceSraphim on
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