I know that I, as a fan, would have probably skipped minis. I was sold on the idea of an event book, and if it had been a series of minis I probably would have skipped Hawkman and possibly Firestorm (I love Aquaman and Manhunter, I would have likely grabbed those as solo minis).
While the sales may not have been as good, I still say 4 3-4 issue minis plus bookend one-shots would sell just fine, the story would have flowed much better. Instead we got a year long story filled with tangential at best plotlines for relatively little pay-off.
BlankZoe on
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
One thing that really bugged me about the resolution...
Wasn't the whole point of Brightest Day that the white entity was dying? And finding the 'savior of Earth' was basically a search for someone to replace it?
One thing that really bugged me about the resolution...
Wasn't the whole point of Brightest Day that the white entity was dying? And finding the 'savior of Earth' was basically a search for someone to replace it?
So is Swamp Thing the new white entity, or...
..?
Welcome to the world of Geoff Johns. Plot holes, forgotten elements, and just plain bad storytelling- oh and retcons. Lots and lots of retcons.
When he gets it right, he gets it right. But this just seemed phoned in.
They never did answer the question of who was supposed to wield the white lantern. Remember, Boston Brand picked Batman and the ring told him he picked the wrong person.
Swamp Thing isn't using any white ring powers. He was birthed with the primal elements and purged of the black memories and then joined with that human dude. But none of that has anything to do with the white lantern, other than it was there when it happened.
They never did answer the question of who was supposed to wield the white lantern. Remember, Boston Brand picked Batman and the ring told him he picked the wrong person.
Swamp Thing isn't using any white ring powers. He was birthed with the primal elements and purged of the black memories and then joined with that human dude. But none of that has anything to do with the white lantern, other than it was there when it happened.
Large portions of Green Lantern's backstory (and the backstories of various GL universe characters), large portions of Barry Allen's backstory (including the whole 'lol your Mom is dead!' thing) - I'm sure there's more, but those are the two big ones off the top of my head.
jkylefulton on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
Large portions of Green Lantern's backstory (and the backstories of various GL universe characters), large portions of Barry Allen's backstory (including the whole 'lol your Mom is dead!' thing) - I'm sure there's more, but those are the two big ones off the top of my head.
The Barry Allen thing isn't really a retcon. It's plot related.
Barry's Mom's death is in his history now because the Reverse Flash literally went back in time and killed her. That's not what a retcon is.
He FIXED Superman. They should have never taken the Silver Age elements out of it.
Superman's origin was plenty clear with what Byrne did, then Loeb, Kelly and Waid added in order to allow Krypton to be less sterile of a world. I liked the idea of Clark traveling the world after high school not wearing a Superboy outfit, just wearing his Smallville varsity jacket.
Yes it is. Reverse Flash killing his mom wasn't a part of past continuity, now it is.
That is the very definition of retroactive continuity
Yeah but it doesn't seem as much like a retcon because Reverse Flash actually went a did a thing which resulted in that. He went back in time and killed her. So I see it less as a retcon and more the history changing time travel plot that it is. It just feels different in my mind.
Yes it is. Reverse Flash killing his mom wasn't a part of past continuity, now it is.
That is the very definition of retroactive continuity
No it's not. Retroactive continuity is like when Johns stuck Atrocitus into Hal Jordan's origin. There's nothing in the plot that justifies the change; Johns was like, "yeah well remember what you thought happened? this is what happened instead."
The difference is that Mrs. Allen's murder was a result of plot developments that happened after Barry Allen came back in Final Crisis, and after Zoom was resurrected.
Zoom came back in Blackest Night, then ran back in time because he hated Barry Allen and killed his mother. That is a current time travel plot point, not a retcon.
He FIXED Superman. They should have never taken the Silver Age elements out of it.
Superman's origin was plenty clear with what Byrne did, then Loeb, Kelly and Waid added in order to allow Krypton to be less sterile of a world. I liked the idea of Clark traveling the world after high school not wearing a Superboy outfit, just wearing his Smallville varsity jacket.
Tex and I agree about this every time it comes up, but someone has to defend Post-crisis to Infinite Crisis Superman (aka the best Superman)
Rans on
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
Even if you got rid of Superman Red/Blue (which did have some good stories in it for that year of a costume change), there were 17 other years of good Superman stories that the mullet could never destroy.
That Superman Retroactive: 90's is going to be so great.
Superman should be able to take the moral high ground and make it sound right and just rather than sanctimonious, because he is so honest and forthright and damn heroic.
And if you can't write Superman like that then you shouldn't be writing Superman. I'm looking at you Straczynski.
John was on the cover of the previous months GLC a,d the solicti mention something about him finding his new place in the green lantern corps. That + lack of green lantern titles means it's pretty much Hal.
That's so weird, cause Marvel does the exact opposite. They always reboot to a near-movie continuity whenever a film is about to release. Like with them returning Steve to being Cap, and like when Stark went public with his repulsor tech just in time for Iron Man 2.
I think DC realizes that any new comics audience coming in from the movie will likely be picking up trades they find in the comic store or even Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I don't think any comic has benefited in sales by a movie release, outside of renewed interest from the already established comics audience.
So instead, they run big stories in single issues to keep the current audience invigorated. Just wait until June, we'll see Green Lantern: Secret Origin everywhere but you won't see random people picking up "Green Lantern #66" or whatever.
Rans on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
I think Rans has the idea. Look at the GL stuff, they really push GL Rebirth as the starting point, along with Secret Origins and then chronologically the Johns stuff. Secret Origins even has a Ryan Reynolds cover now to really go "hey, start here."
With Batman they just pumped out a lot of existing Joker stories in trades. There are some areas where they might connect to movies, but only periphery (Superman after IC had his Kryptonian crystals again like in the movies for Superman Returns).
TexiKen on
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I read through all 24 issues of Generation Lost, as well as issues 13-21 of Power Girl last night.
JL:GL had a lot of promise for the first two thirds of the book, and then completely went off the rails once
Blue Beetle got kidnapped and "killed." I enjoyed it up through the fight with Power Girl.
So, the final act sucked, there was no closure, and all the book did was set up a new status quo and some new rogues for Power Girl and the follow-up JLI ongoing. Max's final plan went completely in counter to his behavior everywhere else in the series, and he even admitted as much. Turns out, he had no real game plan in the last act!
However, I thought Winnick really had a grip on all of the characters, even if he didn't have a strong plot. The new Rocket Red is awesome, and I can't even tell you how psyched and happy I was to see someone actually acknowledge Booster's growth since OMAC Project, as he actually assumed an organic leadership role. His ongoing hasn't even figured that out yet; he's still an arrogant hothead (Jurgens) or still bumbling (Giffen & DeMatteis). It was nicefor someone to say that Booster really has grown and become the hero that he's always had the potential to be.
The Power Girl tie-ins were also by Winnick, and they tied in very, very closely with the main series. I thought they were excellent. I hadn't read PG before, but it was fucking awesome. Winnick was able to write a tie-in that still retained autonomy (for the most part; the final tie-in issue led readers to the last 3 GL issues for the conclusion), but actually expanded on the plot quite a bit. In addition, he kept up the humor and whimsy. And the new villains, Crash and Divine, are awesome.
If the book sets up a JLI ongoing then I will be there day one
And yeah I agree that Booster was better in JL:GL. Giffen clearly wanted to write Booster and Ted having adventures, which required the old Booster, although I felt that Jurgen's really moved to mature the character (not really interested in promotions etc any more apart from as a cover, actually a competent hero, really did want to be in the JL and not have to pretend to be an ass).
I do hope that one day Booster gets his moment in front of Superman and so on. I know him being a hero that no-one knows about is cool and all, but it would be nice if other people could see him for the hero he really is.
However, I thought Winnick really had a grip on all of the characters, even if he didn't have a strong plot. The new Rocket Red is awesome, and I can't even tell you how psyched and happy I was to see someone actually acknowledge Booster's growth since OMAC Project, as he actually assumed an organic leadership role. His ongoing hasn't even figured that out yet; he's still an arrogant hothead (Jurgens) or still bumbling (Giffen & DeMatteis). It was nicefor someone to say that Booster really has grown and become the hero that he's always had the potential to be.
Here's the thing about that. It's only really fun once, because you get to see Booster shut all his detractors up. But after that, he's basically ruined. A Booster that isn't a bumbler, a glory-hound, or a huckster, is just one more lantern-jawed blonde guy.
Posts
The minis would have Tomasi and Johns' names on them and sell just fine.
If they treated the miniseries as big of an event as Brightest Day they would do fine.
If they just presented them as miniseries, then yeah they wouldn't sell amazingly well.
I know that I, as a fan, would have probably skipped minis. I was sold on the idea of an event book, and if it had been a series of minis I probably would have skipped Hawkman and possibly Firestorm (I love Aquaman and Manhunter, I would have likely grabbed those as solo minis).
So is Swamp Thing the new white entity, or...
..?
Welcome to the world of Geoff Johns. Plot holes, forgotten elements, and just plain bad storytelling- oh and retcons. Lots and lots of retcons.
When he gets it right, he gets it right. But this just seemed phoned in.
Swamp Thing isn't using any white ring powers. He was birthed with the primal elements and purged of the black memories and then joined with that human dude. But none of that has anything to do with the white lantern, other than it was there when it happened.
Large portions of Green Lantern's backstory (and the backstories of various GL universe characters), large portions of Barry Allen's backstory (including the whole 'lol your Mom is dead!' thing) - I'm sure there's more, but those are the two big ones off the top of my head.
Barry's Mom's death is in his history now because the Reverse Flash literally went back in time and killed her. That's not what a retcon is.
That is the very definition of retroactive continuity
maybe this is what kanigher & broome had planned all along
Superman's origin was plenty clear with what Byrne did, then Loeb, Kelly and Waid added in order to allow Krypton to be less sterile of a world. I liked the idea of Clark traveling the world after high school not wearing a Superboy outfit, just wearing his Smallville varsity jacket.
Yeah but it doesn't seem as much like a retcon because Reverse Flash actually went a did a thing which resulted in that. He went back in time and killed her. So I see it less as a retcon and more the history changing time travel plot that it is. It just feels different in my mind.
No it's not. Retroactive continuity is like when Johns stuck Atrocitus into Hal Jordan's origin. There's nothing in the plot that justifies the change; Johns was like, "yeah well remember what you thought happened? this is what happened instead."
The difference is that Mrs. Allen's murder was a result of plot developments that happened after Barry Allen came back in Final Crisis, and after Zoom was resurrected.
Zoom came back in Blackest Night, then ran back in time because he hated Barry Allen and killed his mother. That is a current time travel plot point, not a retcon.
Tex and I agree about this every time it comes up, but someone has to defend Post-crisis to Infinite Crisis Superman (aka the best Superman)
That Superman Retroactive: 90's is going to be so great.
mostly because despite the visual change he was still actually Superman and therefore awesome
Unlike Grounded Superman who isn't really Superman. Superman isn't sanctimonious god damn it!
Superman should be able to take the moral high ground and make it sound right and just rather than sanctimonious, because he is so honest and forthright and damn heroic.
And if you can't write Superman like that then you shouldn't be writing Superman. I'm looking at you Straczynski.
Kyle survives! GLC cover for August. Guy is shown on the EW cover. So, it's down to Hal and John.
From the GL solicit.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
So instead, they run big stories in single issues to keep the current audience invigorated. Just wait until June, we'll see Green Lantern: Secret Origin everywhere but you won't see random people picking up "Green Lantern #66" or whatever.
With Batman they just pumped out a lot of existing Joker stories in trades. There are some areas where they might connect to movies, but only periphery (Superman after IC had his Kryptonian crystals again like in the movies for Superman Returns).
JL:GL had a lot of promise for the first two thirds of the book, and then completely went off the rails once
So, the final act sucked, there was no closure, and all the book did was set up a new status quo and some new rogues for Power Girl and the follow-up JLI ongoing. Max's final plan went completely in counter to his behavior everywhere else in the series, and he even admitted as much. Turns out, he had no real game plan in the last act!
However, I thought Winnick really had a grip on all of the characters, even if he didn't have a strong plot. The new Rocket Red is awesome, and I can't even tell you how psyched and happy I was to see someone actually acknowledge Booster's growth since OMAC Project, as he actually assumed an organic leadership role. His ongoing hasn't even figured that out yet; he's still an arrogant hothead (Jurgens) or still bumbling (Giffen & DeMatteis). It was nicefor someone to say that Booster really has grown and become the hero that he's always had the potential to be.
The Power Girl tie-ins were also by Winnick, and they tied in very, very closely with the main series. I thought they were excellent. I hadn't read PG before, but it was fucking awesome. Winnick was able to write a tie-in that still retained autonomy (for the most part; the final tie-in issue led readers to the last 3 GL issues for the conclusion), but actually expanded on the plot quite a bit. In addition, he kept up the humor and whimsy. And the new villains, Crash and Divine, are awesome.
If the book sets up a JLI ongoing then I will be there day one
And yeah I agree that Booster was better in JL:GL. Giffen clearly wanted to write Booster and Ted having adventures, which required the old Booster, although I felt that Jurgen's really moved to mature the character (not really interested in promotions etc any more apart from as a cover, actually a competent hero, really did want to be in the JL and not have to pretend to be an ass).
I do hope that one day Booster gets his moment in front of Superman and so on. I know him being a hero that no-one knows about is cool and all, but it would be nice if other people could see him for the hero he really is.
That could describe any DC event since (and including) Identity Crisis.
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