Yep, and it sounds like regen apparently needs to be tuned down a little right now judging from italianranma's post. Although they also talk about how haste will speed up JotW ticks, so haste will actually be a mana regen stat for ret, in addition to the obvious DPS increase, so they're going to have to decide where they want that balance to lie with, say, 0 haste vs. gearing heavily for it.
Haste is going to be a resource regeneration improvement stat for the other physical specs, so I'm curious if they're going to get paladins in on that too or not.
Haste already speeds up JotW ticks from what I could tell, and currently if you use a pre-made you end up with 22% haste unbuffed. So mana returns are pretty high for the premades already, and if you judge on cooldown you will never run out combined with the 2% per second from being in combat.
Yeah, I suppose haste is inflated at 80 in end game gear is inflated compared to what it will be at 85. Either way they're going to have to balance around a low amount of haste being sufficient, which seems like having high haste won't do much of anything except allow you to use consecration whenever you've got nothing else to hit, and maybe never having to use Divine Plea instead of occasionally wanting to use it.
High haste is already pretty good for Ret, because Seal of Corruption/Vengeance benefits pretty nicely from it. Whether or not that will be enough remains to be seen.
I think they want Guardian Spirit -edit: I mean Ancient Kings...oh you know the 85 skill- to be the new big cooldown. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the talents so far.
They still have to clean up Prot's rotation. And add maybe a talent or skill that works like Empower Rune Weapon but with Holy Power. And something akin to Ret's 40% chance to generate Holy Power on any action.
So what's this word of glory heal spell? I tried finding it on mmo-champ but it doesn't seem to be in the notes anywhere.
There are anough talents for ret to buff it +90% (30% all, 60% on other)on targets other than yourself and 75% (15% all the time, 60% below 35% HP) to crit chance if the target is below 35% health, so that's pretty much guaranteed critical. Sounds nice but I would like to know what that spell actually is...
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High haste is already pretty good for Ret, because Seal of Corruption/Vengeance benefits pretty nicely from it. Whether or not that will be enough remains to be seen.
Right, it's not about whether haste is effective for DPS or not, since that's just a matter of tuning a couple numbers. It's more whether or not haste affects your resources in a way that lets you use more/different abilities like it does for the other physical DPS specs (except maybe enhancement shaman).
So what's this word of glory heal spell? I tried finding it on mmo-champ but it doesn't seem to be in the notes anywhere.
There are anough talents for ret to buff it +90% (30% all, 60% on other)on targets other than yourself and 75% (15% all the time, 60% below 35% HP) to crit chance if the target is below 35% health, so that's pretty much guaranteed critical. Sounds nice but I would like to know what that spell actually is...
Word of Glory is an instant cast single target heal that requires Holy Power to use, healing for more the more charges of HP you have. Basically another holy shock (minus the offense) limited by Holy Power instead of cooldown.
For ret, it seems like it will be kind of a replacement for the current role of using Art of War procs to heal. Instead you'll be able to burn HP charges on heals.
I think they want Guardian Spirit -edit: I mean Ancient Kings...oh you know the 85 skill- to be the new big cooldown. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the talents so far.
They still have to clean up Prot's rotation. And add maybe a talent or skill that works like Empower Rune Weapon but with Holy Power. And something akin to Ret's 40% chance to generate Holy Power on any action.
Yeah I know, I'm just not comfortable with our major cooldown only being available at level 85 as part of our "super duper level 85 skill."
It's like telling Ret they don't get a real DPS cooldown until then.
I'm afraid that it will marginalize us as far as "tanks that can take a hit" go. I'm already expecting not to be able to use Holy Shield at all, so it's not like I have that to fall back on to increase the damage reduction for Divine Protection.
What's the current level cap? 82? I think it's too early to make those kind of judgments since there's no endgame content available (heroics or raids) that we can really test all these new systems yet.
There's another build early next week so I figure they wanted testers to try out these over the weekend. I do hope they find a way to make Avenger's Shield cooler. Maybe a debuff or HP generator. And please update the graphic to something more...epic.
I think they want Guardian Spirit -edit: I mean Ancient Kings...oh you know the 85 skill- to be the new big cooldown. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the talents so far.
They still have to clean up Prot's rotation. And add maybe a talent or skill that works like Empower Rune Weapon but with Holy Power. And something akin to Ret's 40% chance to generate Holy Power on any action.
Yeah I know, I'm just not comfortable with our major cooldown only being available at level 85 as part of our "super duper level 85 skill."
It's like telling Ret they don't get a real DPS cooldown until then.
What's the current level cap? 82? I think it's too early to make those kind of judgments since there's no endgame content available (heroics or raids) that we can really test all these new systems yet.
There's another build early next week so I figure they wanted testers to try out these over the weekend. I do hope they find a way to make Avenger's Shield cooler. Maybe a debuff or HP generator. And please update the graphic to something more...epic.
True, it is early. I am worried though over the eventual effects based on the previous history of changes.
As to Avenger's Shield, I can't complain too much. Isn't it available at level 10 now (the free ability for picking prot)? And they finally removed the daze.
What's the current level cap? 82? I think it's too early to make those kind of judgments since there's no endgame content available (heroics or raids) that we can really test all these new systems yet.
There's another build early next week so I figure they wanted testers to try out these over the weekend. I do hope they find a way to make Avenger's Shield cooler. Maybe a debuff or HP generator. And please update the graphic to something more...epic.
True, it is early. I am worried though over the eventual effects based on the previous history of changes.
As to Avenger's Shield, I can't complain too much. Isn't it available at level 10 now (the free ability for picking prot)? And they finally removed the daze.
What previous history? Paladins being the best tank through much of WotLK?
I think they want Guardian Spirit -edit: I mean Ancient Kings...oh you know the 85 skill- to be the new big cooldown. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the talents so far.
They still have to clean up Prot's rotation. And add maybe a talent or skill that works like Empower Rune Weapon but with Holy Power. And something akin to Ret's 40% chance to generate Holy Power on any action.
Yeah I know, I'm just not comfortable with our major cooldown only being available at level 85 as part of our "super duper level 85 skill."
I do hope they turn holy power for prot pallies into some way to give them little mini cooldowns like shield wall or IBF or barkskin. But it always kind of bothered me that there are specific encounters, Festergut for example, where tank damage is huge and tanks are supposed to be rolling cooldowns, and prot paladins get to sit and pray to god they won't need more than ardent defender to pull through.
Yeah, Paladins have already had Shield Wall for this entire expansion(Divine Protection.) It seems to me with shield blocking turning into basically every hit being reduced by a substantial amount, Paladins are going to be in pretty good shape, especially when using Holy Shield in the same way Warriors use Shield Block, which is what actually passes for a 'mini cooldown'(Shield Wall is a legit tank cooldown, not mini).
I think whether Paladins will get to use their holy power on holy shield boosting or have to use it constantly for that threat thing is probably the biggest concern they need to work out in that regard.
Yeah, Paladins have already had Shield Wall for this entire expansion(Divine Protection.) It seems to me with shield blocking turning into basically every hit being reduced by a substantial amount, Paladins are going to be in pretty good shape, especially when using Holy Shield in the same way Warriors use Shield Block, which is what actually passes for a 'mini cooldown'(Shield Wall is a legit tank cooldown, not mini).
I think whether Paladins will get to use their holy power on holy shield boosting or have to use it constantly for that threat thing is probably the biggest concern they need to work out in that regard.
Pretty much. As it stands now I can easily see how a guild will push their prot paladins to just roll Inquisition (since Blizzard is intent on not letting tanks roll threat) and let the healers deal with the fact you aren't running Holy Shield.
If the basis for reducing Divine Protection to 20% is "well paladins can use Holy shield so they can get an extra 15% damage reduction," I think they'll be surprised.
There are a few really interesting posts on the cata forums. I bring up this one by Birdofcata because it's got some good numbers in it. He's been pretty frequent and very level headded on the forums too. At first I was worried because it looked like after the overhaul that they were finished with Paladins. I think now that there's still a lot more in store for us. My main concerns are with Ret PvP, but I'm pretty sure that all the PvE roles are going to be top notch.
Let me know if there are any quick things you want me to test. I'm not at the level cap yet though: and probably won't be until mid August when I get a little time in my schedule.
italianranma on
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
building holy power exclusively through crusader strike to me is the ultimate in tedium. you just absolutely can't use templar's verdict without 3 stacks of holy power as it's just such a massive damage increase from 2 to 3. divine storm is a useless mana drain without holy power stacks that hits for literally less then your seals of command. you end up with a pretty rigid rotation you need to keep with holy power and ability cooldowns.
it's just, not fun at all. i've talked to quite a few ret specced paladins and i've heard the same sentiments echoed back.
I suppose. Maybe not everyone likes to play Rogue lite. But you just described to me Rogue gameplay basically. I do think they should rethink how a Ret Paladin does AoE. I haven't kept up with Rogues but can they still spam FoK?
By the way, I can't comment until I've tried the beat but I don't like the current Ret model. Even if you have a lot of attacks, they're just basically the same thing with different shiny lights. No interaction whatsoever in the order you press them. I actually like how Rogues play so I am actually looking forward to HP.
Oh, and regarding Holy Power tied to cooldowns? I hope the devs don't go that way. It didn't work with the DK's IBF and Runic Power.
I suppose. Maybe not everyone likes to play Rogue lite. But you just described to me Rogue gameplay basically. I do think they should rethink how a Ret Paladin does AoE. I haven't kept up with Rogues but can they still spam FoK?
By the way, I can't comment until I've tried the beat but I don't like the current Ret model. Even if you have a lot of attacks, they're just basically the same thing with different shiny lights. No interaction whatsoever in the order you press them. I actually like how Rogues play so I am actually looking forward to HP.
Oh, and regarding Holy Power tied to cooldowns? I hope the devs don't go that way. It didn't work with the DK's IBF and Runic Power.
Are you talking about tanking cooldowns or any cooldowns? Because if it's tanking, I think it's only tied to Holy Shield, which isn't really even a tanking cooldown. It's closer to a tanking form of Slice 'n' Dice... Block 'n' Rock?
I do hope they turn holy power for prot pallies into some way to give them little mini cooldowns like shield wall or IBF or barkskin. But it always kind of bothered me that there are specific encounters, Festergut for example, where tank damage is huge and tanks are supposed to be rolling cooldowns, and prot paladins get to sit and pray to god they won't need more than ardent defender to pull through.
Ahh, OK, although I'm not really sure why he's saying "mini cooldowns like shield wall or IBF or barkskin," which aren't mini cooldowns. Well, Barkskin is kind of borderline, but not really mini, no.
You don't want your main cooldowns tied to combo-point-esque systems anyway. You want those things available the second you need them.
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You don't want your main cooldowns tied to combo-point-esque systems anyway. You want those things available the second you need them.
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You don't want your main cooldowns tied to combo-point-esque systems anyway. You want those things available the second you need them.
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You mean like Inquisition?
Something more interesting then that.
And something that won't cause a big pain in the ass with balancing threat.
You don't want your main cooldowns tied to combo-point-esque systems anyway. You want those things available the second you need them.
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You mean like Inquisition?
Something more interesting then that.
And something that won't cause a big pain in the ass with balancing threat.
Well, they could WoG themselves presumably. It'd be sort of like a paladin rune tap, although not as readily available. Not sure what else they can really add as an HP sink that isn't damage or healing (another form of damage mitigation doesn't really make sense).
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
I suppose. Maybe not everyone likes to play Rogue lite. But you just described to me Rogue gameplay basically. I do think they should rethink how a Ret Paladin does AoE. I haven't kept up with Rogues but can they still spam FoK?
By the way, I can't comment until I've tried the beat but I don't like the current Ret model. Even if you have a lot of attacks, they're just basically the same thing with different shiny lights. No interaction whatsoever in the order you press them. I actually like how Rogues play so I am actually looking forward to HP.
Oh, and regarding Holy Power tied to cooldowns? I hope the devs don't go that way. It didn't work with the DK's IBF and Runic Power.
if rogues only had sinister strike to build cps and only had evis and fok to use those combo points on, then it would be comparable.
rogues can still spam fok. we get
Divine Storm
20% of base mana
An instant weapon attack that causes 20% of weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totaling 25% of the damage caused. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:
I suppose. Maybe not everyone likes to play Rogue lite. But you just described to me Rogue gameplay basically. I do think they should rethink how a Ret Paladin does AoE. I haven't kept up with Rogues but can they still spam FoK?
By the way, I can't comment until I've tried the beat but I don't like the current Ret model. Even if you have a lot of attacks, they're just basically the same thing with different shiny lights. No interaction whatsoever in the order you press them. I actually like how Rogues play so I am actually looking forward to HP.
Oh, and regarding Holy Power tied to cooldowns? I hope the devs don't go that way. It didn't work with the DK's IBF and Runic Power.
if rogues only had sinister strike to build cps and only had evis and fok to use those combo points on, then it would be comparable.
rogues can still spam fok. we get
Divine Storm
20% of base mana
An instant weapon attack that causes 20% of weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totaling 25% of the damage caused. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:
You don't want your main cooldowns tied to combo-point-esque systems anyway. You want those things available the second you need them.
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You mean like Inquisition?
Something more interesting then that.
And something that won't cause a big pain in the ass with balancing threat.
Well, they could WoG themselves presumably. It'd be sort of like a paladin rune tap, although not as readily available. Not sure what else they can really add as an HP sink that isn't damage or healing (another form of damage mitigation doesn't really make sense).
My understanding from reading the cataclysm forums is that most non-holy paladins view WoG as a waste of Holy Power. It doesn't heal enough and/or requires you to pick up optional talents that you wouldn't really want to waste points on.
Posts
Haste is going to be a resource regeneration improvement stat for the other physical specs, so I'm curious if they're going to get paladins in on that too or not.
I'm just hoping they change their mind about Inquisition (for prot) and "no big cooldowns"
They still have to clean up Prot's rotation. And add maybe a talent or skill that works like Empower Rune Weapon but with Holy Power. And something akin to Ret's 40% chance to generate Holy Power on any action.
There are anough talents for ret to buff it +90% (30% all, 60% on other)on targets other than yourself and 75% (15% all the time, 60% below 35% HP) to crit chance if the target is below 35% health, so that's pretty much guaranteed critical. Sounds nice but I would like to know what that spell actually is...
"You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should."
For ret, it seems like it will be kind of a replacement for the current role of using Art of War procs to heal. Instead you'll be able to burn HP charges on heals.
Yeah I know, I'm just not comfortable with our major cooldown only being available at level 85 as part of our "super duper level 85 skill."
It's like telling Ret they don't get a real DPS cooldown until then.
I'm afraid that it will marginalize us as far as "tanks that can take a hit" go. I'm already expecting not to be able to use Holy Shield at all, so it's not like I have that to fall back on to increase the damage reduction for Divine Protection.
There's another build early next week so I figure they wanted testers to try out these over the weekend. I do hope they find a way to make Avenger's Shield cooler. Maybe a debuff or HP generator. And please update the graphic to something more...epic.
No, that design is going toward death knights.
True, it is early. I am worried though over the eventual effects based on the previous history of changes.
As to Avenger's Shield, I can't complain too much. Isn't it available at level 10 now (the free ability for picking prot)? And they finally removed the daze.
And? You gonna be raiding at 82? No? Who cares.
I guess we'll see what happens.
I think whether Paladins will get to use their holy power on holy shield boosting or have to use it constantly for that threat thing is probably the biggest concern they need to work out in that regard.
Pretty much. As it stands now I can easily see how a guild will push their prot paladins to just roll Inquisition (since Blizzard is intent on not letting tanks roll threat) and let the healers deal with the fact you aren't running Holy Shield.
If the basis for reducing Divine Protection to 20% is "well paladins can use Holy shield so they can get an extra 15% damage reduction," I think they'll be surprised.
There are a few really interesting posts on the cata forums. I bring up this one by Birdofcata because it's got some good numbers in it. He's been pretty frequent and very level headded on the forums too. At first I was worried because it looked like after the overhaul that they were finished with Paladins. I think now that there's still a lot more in store for us. My main concerns are with Ret PvP, but I'm pretty sure that all the PvE roles are going to be top notch.
Let me know if there are any quick things you want me to test. I'm not at the level cap yet though: and probably won't be until mid August when I get a little time in my schedule.
building holy power exclusively through crusader strike to me is the ultimate in tedium. you just absolutely can't use templar's verdict without 3 stacks of holy power as it's just such a massive damage increase from 2 to 3. divine storm is a useless mana drain without holy power stacks that hits for literally less then your seals of command. you end up with a pretty rigid rotation you need to keep with holy power and ability cooldowns.
it's just, not fun at all. i've talked to quite a few ret specced paladins and i've heard the same sentiments echoed back.
this is just my opinion though, maybe i'm crazy.
By the way, I can't comment until I've tried the beat but I don't like the current Ret model. Even if you have a lot of attacks, they're just basically the same thing with different shiny lights. No interaction whatsoever in the order you press them. I actually like how Rogues play so I am actually looking forward to HP.
Oh, and regarding Holy Power tied to cooldowns? I hope the devs don't go that way. It didn't work with the DK's IBF and Runic Power.
I was replying to this:
Holy Shield is a good implementation in this regard I think. It's a decent amount of mitigation, but it's not crazy insane and it's on a short cooldown. So it's more of a "Keep overall damage low" thing rather then "I need to not die right now!!!".
Prot Pallies could use SOMETHING else to spend the Holy Power on though.
You mean like Inquisition?
Something more interesting then that.
And something that won't cause a big pain in the ass with balancing threat.
if rogues only had sinister strike to build cps and only had evis and fok to use those combo points on, then it would be comparable.
rogues can still spam fok. we get
Divine Storm
20% of base mana
An instant weapon attack that causes 20% of weapon damage to all enemies within 8 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totaling 25% of the damage caused. Consumes all applications of Holy Power to increase damage dealt:
1 Holy Power: 22% Weapon Damage
2 Holy Power: 50% Weapon Damage
3 Holy Power: 90% Weapon Damage
And consecrations. And you'll still be judging and CSing.
And really, Rogue AoE is no better and actually much more boring. It's 1 button press every 5 seconds and that's it.
My understanding from reading the cataclysm forums is that most non-holy paladins view WoG as a waste of Holy Power. It doesn't heal enough and/or requires you to pick up optional talents that you wouldn't really want to waste points on.