Yes, slow 1 handed DPS weapons are used by some Paladins and Warriors for threat weapons now. The ones itemized for STR in Cata will be even better for this purpose than the current slow 1 handers. The discussion is whether or not the choice will still be there, or Blizzard will decide that shield tanks should just use those all the time instead of having the choice between a tank weapon and a DPS weapon.
I hadn't thought about it, but depending on exactly how reforging works, and if it works on weapons, that could come in to play. A 1h str dps weapon could potentially be runeforged to put some dodge/parry on it. That's an interesting idea, though it doesn't cover fun proc type tank weapons like Last Word, which Blizzard has said they want more of in the future.
Edit: durr, meant reforging in the 2nd paragraph, not runeforging.
Well for certain, Nerubian Carapace/SSGarg cannot remain the way it is now going into Cata. Maybe it'll just go away in lieu of using Swordbreaking or Spellbreaking.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that too actually... which means DKs would lose some health scaling that'll have to be built back into them I think.
But yeah I was wondering how a runeforge for +25 Defense was going to be worked with when Defense is no longer really a stat...
It's not the same because DKs get to runeforge their weapons into a tank weapon, and Bears are unique in that they wear most all dps gear and get their extra stam/armor through talents, and only use dodge.
A runeforge is just a DK-specific enchant. Tanks can put tank enchants on their weapons too.
As far as bears go, there actually used to be tanking staves, all the way up to 3.0 with a 213 tanking weapon (Origin of Nightmares). Or 3.2 if you count the 200 tanking staff added to the Argent Tournament vendor. It's just that Blizzard later decided it was too specific a type of weapon to have dropping in raids. They also explained that as the reason for not having tanking weapons for DKs.
So I made a Holy PvP set to do BGs in. How should I gem? What meta should I get?
The set consists of the entire 232 Furious set, with all the best off pieces I can get without an arena rating. The shoulders are the 251 WG shoulders. I have a 232 PvE sword and a crappy 219 Ulduar shield.
Why? All these changes are super confusing. 4.0 is going to be really weird.
To avoid those situations like the one Wavechaser explained. It allows a person with very limited access to tank gear just spec into being uncrittable or whatever. As it stands now Defense is a large cockblock to people who want to tank, but just dont have the right gear.
This is partly it. The other factor is that reaching the defense cap gives the tank ~17% avoidance and ~6% block chance. Add that on top of the base stats (5% miss, dodge, parry, block), talent points (Deflection, etc), and what you get from gear made new tanks have 40%+ avoidance, and well geared tanks getting up in the 60-70% avoidance range.
This was causing scaling issues with bosses, and tanks could start thinking about making an "unhittable set."
Tanks were already making unhittable sets for tanking heroic Anub adds. Actually, we never did heroic Anub without an unhittable paladin/warrior tanking them. How do people do it otherwise?
Tanks were already making unhittable sets for tanking heroic Anub adds. Actually, we never did heroic Anub without an unhittable paladin/warrior tanking them. How do people do it otherwise?
They waited until they had a paladin or warrior with such a set.
So I'm taking over tanking responsibilities in my 10 man, which is fine because I always picked up tank gear for offspec stuff. Just need to get the damn shield to drop from the Gunship battle, now.
However, I've been hearing that the tanking set pieces are mediocre at best. Given that I also attend a 25 man usually once a week as Ret (supposed to be my main set), which pieces should I look into getting from the set? Or should I just not bother? The 25 man doesn't usually do hard modes, just gunship if we have someone who can come along who's done it.
Edit: I should've logged out in my tanking gear, but I believe I forgot to. I don't have any of the set pieces, btw. All 251-264 stuff, I have the badge chest, hands, and belt. Also have the Organ from ICC10 and the armor trinket from Triumph badges.
Tanks were already making unhittable sets for tanking heroic Anub adds. Actually, we never did heroic Anub without an unhittable paladin/warrior tanking them. How do people do it otherwise?
They waited until they had a paladin or warrior with such a set.
I'm curious if people who farm ICC would be able to do it without a block paladin/warrior now that they outgear the content. Or are the stats not enough to make up for the damage they do?
I don't believe so. The reason that block works so well on this is because the damage multiplier from the debuff is done on the portion of damage that isn't blocked. I don't think there's enough gain in other avoidance/armor/health to get around this.
Previously he had an ability called "Shear" which would cut your tank's health in half if it wasn't dodged/blocked/parried/missed. His regular melee hits were usually enough to kill a tank that got Sheared at that point.
After 3.0 when crushing blows went away, they removed Shear. As a bonus, this meant Druids were now able to tank him too.
They made him stop using Shear, which prior to 3.0 meant you had to have a Warrior or unhittable Paladin to tank him. Bears had no way to not eat shear, and neither would DKs when Wrath launched.
Ever since they nerfed Righteous Fury back in 3.2 Paladins haven't been the clear top dog like they were then. You can't ever really gauge "behind other tanks" unless you know how your gear compares to them, etc.
I can tell you that my Warrior who is in ToC gear only, average ilvl probably 225 puts out about the same single target threat as my Paladin who is probably about average ilvl 240 now. Since they buffed Icy Touch's threat, you will never be able to do as much TPS as an equally geared DK. Druids I don't roll with often, but they generally put out some pretty mean single target TPS too.
Honestly, the thing that helps me the most is when my 10 man has a Lock/Boomkin/Unholy DK in it. The extra 13% damage we get to take advantage of on everything except auto attacks is a hell of a TPS boost.
TLDR; Other tanks might outperform you in a contest, but it's not a contest, and as long as you're not vastly outgeared, the DPS still shouldn't be getting close to you on bosses.
Previously he had an ability called "Shear" which would cut your tank's health in half if it wasn't dodged/blocked/parried/missed. His regular melee hits were usually enough to kill a tank that got Sheared at that point.
After 3.0 when crushing blows went away, they removed Shear. As a bonus, this meant Druids were now able to tank him too.
Well shield block was put on a longer cooldown so warriors would hve been unable to tank Illidan.
As a little bit of the n-word ("noob", get your mind out of the race gutter) when i am looking at gear as a ret pally do I just keep adding for what gives me the highest dps or what? So far I have been adding anything with high strength or additions to attack power and caring little about armour, stamina or defence.
As a little bit of the n-word ("noob", get your mind out of the race gutter) when i am looking at gear as a ret pally do I just keep adding for what gives me the highest dps or what? So far I have been adding anything with high strength or additions to attack power and caring little about armour, stamina or defence.
No do not gear for armor, stamina or defense.
loose stat priority
Hit (At level 80, 263 hit rating, or 8%)
Strength
Expertise (At 80: 214 expertise rating or 26 expertise or 6.5%) Glyph of Seal of Vengeance is good.
Crit
Agility
Haste
Attack Power
Armor Penetration
Spellpower
Intellect
Stamina, Armor
I have only seen one piece of equipment so far which increases expertise, and I'm level 70 so I'm guessing this increases soon?
Expertise is more or less "end-game" that is found mainly at the end of an expansion to help improve your character against heroic/raid level enemies. You'll start seeing a lot post level 78. Right now leveling up just focus on STR and Hit, then follow the previous list of stat priority if you're still unable to decide.
Dear paladin tanks: How do you tank the slimes in Rotface? So far, I have this thing where I taunt, avenger's shield, consecrate, and exorcise while they're sliding over the consecrate. The problem is that sometimes a large puddle of slime ruins the box I form around the boss with this, and I have to drag on the outskirts of the fight, where AOE might aggro it.
In addition, in cleansing a guy of the disease, I get distracted. Is there a macro to put a spell on someone while keeping your current target?
If you put a little effort into getting some threat on the big slime off the bat, you should be fine. I doubt the slime will get hit by enough incidental AoE (your DPS aren't AoEing on Rotface, are they?) to really rip aggro from you.
Also, why are you, as an off-tank, on cleansing duty? Someone else should really be handling that, since you have enough to pay attention to during that fight.
Oh, and I'd avoid dragging slimes through the raid anyway. If you have someone healing you, an off-tank can pretty easily survive running through the slime pool. Turn around and run the opposite way if you need to.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Ever since they nerfed Righteous Fury back in 3.2 Paladins haven't been the clear top dog like they were then. You can't ever really gauge "behind other tanks" unless you know how your gear compares to them, etc.
I can tell you that my Warrior who is in ToC gear only, average ilvl probably 225 puts out about the same single target threat as my Paladin who is probably about average ilvl 240 now. Since they buffed Icy Touch's threat, you will never be able to do as much TPS as an equally geared DK. Druids I don't roll with often, but they generally put out some pretty mean single target TPS too.
Honestly, the thing that helps me the most is when my 10 man has a Lock/Boomkin/Unholy DK in it. The extra 13% damage we get to take advantage of on everything except auto attacks is a hell of a TPS boost.
TLDR; Other tanks might outperform you in a contest, but it's not a contest, and as long as you're not vastly outgeared, the DPS still shouldn't be getting close to you on bosses.
Yeah, I suppose that is true. The guys I run with are pretty hardcore geared compared to my pally, but I picked up the heroic Gunship shoulders and Last Word off 25 Putricide, so that should help a lot.
Also, why are you, as an off-tank, on cleansing duty? Someone else should really be handling that, since you have enough to pay attention to during that fight.
Well, I don't see why not. While the kiting process is a bit daunting the first few times, you're ultimately just running around in circles dumping the odd threat move or taunting a new big slime. With a mouseover macro and maybe a set of raid frames, cleansing should be a cakewalk. Also, I think that macro would be /cast [@mouseover,exists] [] Cleanse
Oh, and I'd avoid dragging slimes through the raid anyway. If you have someone healing you, an off-tank can pretty easily survive running through the slime pool. Turn around and run the opposite way if you need to.
You've also got blessing of freedom to make the journey that much faster.
Any tips on tanking as a level 30 something pally? Is it basically just pull with the damage taunt, judge and consecrate?
Yep, that's pretty much all there is to it. Just make sure to keep your taunts handy in case any aggro mishaps occur with the dps, and try to enjoy counting down the levels until you get more buttons to press.
Krem on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Tank as Ret, Seal of Command is the best tanking tool until you get Hammer of the Righteous at 60.
Tank as Ret, Seal of Command is the best tanking tool until you get Hammer of the Righteous at 60.
I'm level 71 Ret now and I tend to go for Seal of Vengeance over Seal of Command, for how it stacks and the stack as it is unleashed too.
SoLight comes in handy, for me i've found, if you want to go up against a pain in the arse elite with a shit-tonne of health on its own. I normally go into that with SoL, Blessing of Kings, Judgement of Light alternated with Wisdom to keep health up and mana up, then I make sure I'm using flash and excorcism both equally with my Art of War, depending on where my health is. I'm obviously using the other main attacks of a ret paladin but this is the basis of staying the hell alive during a stron elite fight for me.
I might be doing this wrong though, and I would definitely like to hear a better way of doing it against health heavy foes with a good amount of damage.
Johannen on
0
GrobianWhat's on sale?Pliers!Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
I was talking about tanking in dungeons. You're right, for single enemy mobs, SoCorruption is more damage. (but of course he doesn't have that at level 30)
Before 60, Prot has no AoE tanking tools and Ret has one (SoCommand). Ret also has less mana problems due to Replenishment.
I have only seen one piece of equipment so far which increases expertise, and I'm level 70 so I'm guessing this increases soon?
Expertise is more or less "end-game" that is found mainly at the end of an expansion to help improve your character against heroic/raid level enemies. You'll start seeing a lot post level 78. Right now leveling up just focus on STR and Hit, then follow the previous list of stat priority if you're still unable to decide.
Actually, expertise is a hell of a stat (if you can get it) when you're solo leveling since everything is facing you and you get to double dip against both dodge and parry. Of course you don't want too much of it -- 5% or so is fine.
Also, as predicted/hoped for in the Paladin thread, it seems 1H Tank Weapons are no more.
Question? Will there still be tank weapons since Defense as a stat is going away?
We will still make weapons with Stamina and perhaps hit on them. They may not be as valuable as tanking weapons are today without defense, but that's probably not a bad thing. We won't make a ton of them in any case since half the tank classes don't want them.
Any tips on tanking as a level 30 something pally? Is it basically just pull with the damage taunt, judge and consecrate?
Following on from this, can anyone recommend any key addons?
PallyPower seems useful and TauntMaster also looks key (this one shows your party in a grid and highlights red any player with aggro, you can then right click/left click to cast an appropriate taunt). Are there any preferred alternatives to these?
There are a ton of other addons I wouldn't play without, but those are the main ones related to Paladins and tanking. I've never used any taunt type addons because I already know when I lose a mob, and my grid shows me a red dot on anybody who has agro, so I can either Righteous Defense through the person on grid, or just target the thing with the huge red nameplate and hand of reckoning it.
Posts
I hadn't thought about it, but depending on exactly how reforging works, and if it works on weapons, that could come in to play. A 1h str dps weapon could potentially be runeforged to put some dodge/parry on it. That's an interesting idea, though it doesn't cover fun proc type tank weapons like Last Word, which Blizzard has said they want more of in the future.
Edit: durr, meant reforging in the 2nd paragraph, not runeforging.
But yeah I was wondering how a runeforge for +25 Defense was going to be worked with when Defense is no longer really a stat...
As far as bears go, there actually used to be tanking staves, all the way up to 3.0 with a 213 tanking weapon (Origin of Nightmares). Or 3.2 if you count the 200 tanking staff added to the Argent Tournament vendor. It's just that Blizzard later decided it was too specific a type of weapon to have dropping in raids. They also explained that as the reason for not having tanking weapons for DKs.
The set consists of the entire 232 Furious set, with all the best off pieces I can get without an arena rating. The shoulders are the 251 WG shoulders. I have a 232 PvE sword and a crappy 219 Ulduar shield.
This is partly it. The other factor is that reaching the defense cap gives the tank ~17% avoidance and ~6% block chance. Add that on top of the base stats (5% miss, dodge, parry, block), talent points (Deflection, etc), and what you get from gear made new tanks have 40%+ avoidance, and well geared tanks getting up in the 60-70% avoidance range.
This was causing scaling issues with bosses, and tanks could start thinking about making an "unhittable set."
They waited until they had a paladin or warrior with such a set.
However, I've been hearing that the tanking set pieces are mediocre at best. Given that I also attend a 25 man usually once a week as Ret (supposed to be my main set), which pieces should I look into getting from the set? Or should I just not bother? The 25 man doesn't usually do hard modes, just gunship if we have someone who can come along who's done it.
Edit: I should've logged out in my tanking gear, but I believe I forgot to. I don't have any of the set pieces, btw. All 251-264 stuff, I have the badge chest, hands, and belt. Also have the Organ from ICC10 and the armor trinket from Triumph badges.
Unless you do 25H ICC, you're hard pressed to replace the badge chest, belt, and crafted legs (Pillars of Might).
Shoulders are kind of up in the air, the ones from Lootship 25 are great, and the H-Lootship shoulders are (IIRC) BiS through heroic mode.
After 3.0 when crushing blows went away, they removed Shear. As a bonus, this meant Druids were now able to tank him too.
Hm... ok. Thanks.
Another side question: it seems like my threat generation is behind other tanks. Is this normal?
I can tell you that my Warrior who is in ToC gear only, average ilvl probably 225 puts out about the same single target threat as my Paladin who is probably about average ilvl 240 now. Since they buffed Icy Touch's threat, you will never be able to do as much TPS as an equally geared DK. Druids I don't roll with often, but they generally put out some pretty mean single target TPS too.
Honestly, the thing that helps me the most is when my 10 man has a Lock/Boomkin/Unholy DK in it. The extra 13% damage we get to take advantage of on everything except auto attacks is a hell of a TPS boost.
TLDR; Other tanks might outperform you in a contest, but it's not a contest, and as long as you're not vastly outgeared, the DPS still shouldn't be getting close to you on bosses.
Well shield block was put on a longer cooldown so warriors would hve been unable to tank Illidan.
No do not gear for armor, stamina or defense.
loose stat priority
Hit (At level 80, 263 hit rating, or 8%)
Strength
Expertise (At 80: 214 expertise rating or 26 expertise or 6.5%) Glyph of Seal of Vengeance is good.
Crit
Agility
Haste
Attack Power
Armor Penetration
Spellpower
Intellect
Stamina, Armor
Expertise is more or less "end-game" that is found mainly at the end of an expansion to help improve your character against heroic/raid level enemies. You'll start seeing a lot post level 78. Right now leveling up just focus on STR and Hit, then follow the previous list of stat priority if you're still unable to decide.
In addition, in cleansing a guy of the disease, I get distracted. Is there a macro to put a spell on someone while keeping your current target?
Also, why are you, as an off-tank, on cleansing duty? Someone else should really be handling that, since you have enough to pay attention to during that fight.
Oh, and I'd avoid dragging slimes through the raid anyway. If you have someone healing you, an off-tank can pretty easily survive running through the slime pool. Turn around and run the opposite way if you need to.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Yeah, I suppose that is true. The guys I run with are pretty hardcore geared compared to my pally, but I picked up the heroic Gunship shoulders and Last Word off 25 Putricide, so that should help a lot.
You've also got blessing of freedom to make the journey that much faster.
Yep, that's pretty much all there is to it. Just make sure to keep your taunts handy in case any aggro mishaps occur with the dps, and try to enjoy counting down the levels until you get more buttons to press.
I'm level 71 Ret now and I tend to go for Seal of Vengeance over Seal of Command, for how it stacks and the stack as it is unleashed too.
SoLight comes in handy, for me i've found, if you want to go up against a pain in the arse elite with a shit-tonne of health on its own. I normally go into that with SoL, Blessing of Kings, Judgement of Light alternated with Wisdom to keep health up and mana up, then I make sure I'm using flash and excorcism both equally with my Art of War, depending on where my health is. I'm obviously using the other main attacks of a ret paladin but this is the basis of staying the hell alive during a stron elite fight for me.
I might be doing this wrong though, and I would definitely like to hear a better way of doing it against health heavy foes with a good amount of damage.
Before 60, Prot has no AoE tanking tools and Ret has one (SoCommand). Ret also has less mana problems due to Replenishment.
Following on from this, can anyone recommend any key addons?
PallyPower seems useful and TauntMaster also looks key (this one shows your party in a grid and highlights red any player with aggro, you can then right click/left click to cast an appropriate taunt). Are there any preferred alternatives to these?
Tidyplates + threatplates
There are a ton of other addons I wouldn't play without, but those are the main ones related to Paladins and tanking. I've never used any taunt type addons because I already know when I lose a mob, and my grid shows me a red dot on anybody who has agro, so I can either Righteous Defense through the person on grid, or just target the thing with the huge red nameplate and hand of reckoning it.