My first traffic ticket

eatmosushi

I got pulled over for making a U-Turn in business area.

It was 10:15 pm, there was no traffic in the area. I made the u-turn to park on the other side of the street. I came to a complete stop, made sure there was no traffic in either direction.

The ticket has me marked as "U-Turn Prohibited" with the city ordinance 331.12


b) No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.




Since I can rationally argue, based on the time of day, the lack of traffic in the area, and my spotless driving record (i'm 26), that I did not violate the ordinance?

Tanks for the advice

bowen

Argue it as a 3-point turn? I don't know. Sounds like a bored cop with nothing better to do. You won't get points for a U-turn, it'll probably be a $150 fine.

But yeah, you can probably argue that there was no one around and you missed the turn. Maybe. If you're lucky.

eatmosushi

"unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement."

on top of the fact that in the state of ohio, u-turns are not prohibited unless there is a sign that says otherwise - and there wasn't.

Mostlyjoe13

Sounds like a quota ticket.

bowen

Well you were in the business area so it was technically illegal without marking. But if you made sure that it was reasonably safe I don't see why you wouldn't argue it in court.

stah

eatmosushi wrote: »

b) No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

IANAL but this is how I interpreted what was written.

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction upon any street in a business district.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

I'm not sure traffic laws work this way, but if I were to write that in a programming statement then you did indeed break the law. Whether you should have been ticketed or not really depends on the cop, but I believe he was def. in the right to ticket you. No matter how "safe" you did it, you still broke one of those statements.

I'd say go and see if you can have the fine cut in half or something. Since it's most likely no points then thats probably the best you could do. Also, don't do it again.

RUNN1NGMAN

stah wrote: »

eatmosushi wrote: »

b) No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

IANAL but this is how I interpreted what was written.

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction upon any street in a business district.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement.
No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

I'm not sure traffic laws work this way, but if I were to write that in a programming statement then you did indeed break the law. Whether you should have been ticketed or not really depends on the cop, but I believe he was def. in the right to ticket you. No matter how "safe" you did it, you still broke one of those statements.

I'd say go and see if you can have the fine cut in half or something. Since it's most likely no points then thats probably the best you could do. Also, don't do it again.

Yeah, that's how I would read the law too.

bowen

I read that "unless" as a separate statement rather than being tacked onto the last "No u-turn" group.

Though, you're probably right. I'd probably argue it as a bad 3-point turn though.

stah

bowen wrote: »

I read that "unless" as a separate statement rather than being tacked onto the last "No u-turn" group.

Though, you're probably right. I'd probably argue it as a bad 3-point turn though.

3-Point Turn would be covered under those rules, would it not? Since it's a turn "...so as to proceed in the opposite direction..."

bowen

I always love laws that promote lost tourists getting more lost. :^:

But you're probably right. Thems are dicks of laws though.

PeregrineFalcon

IANAL but here's how I'm parsing this:

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

Think this way:

If [B]prohibitedCondition(YourDriving)[/B] AND NOT [B]action.WasSafe[/B]
{
   fine($150);
}

The fact that the action was safe and did not interfere with any traffic (there not being any) negates the conditions that prohibit it.

stah

PeregrineFalcon wrote: »

IANAL but here's how I'm parsing this:

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

Think this way:

If [B]prohibitedCondition(YourDriving)[/B] AND NOT [B]action.WasSafe[/B]
{
   fine($150);
}

The fact that the action was safe and did not interfere with any traffic (there not being any) negates the conditions that prohibit it.

That sounds good...but it's not the way the the law was written.

It's more like

If ([B]prohibitedCondition(YourDriving)[/B] Then

  [B]Cop.IssueTicket()[/B]

Else
    If ([B]Action.WasSafe = Tru[/B]e) AND ([B]Traffic.WasInterrupted = False[/B]) Then

        [B]Cop.Ignore()[/B]

    Else

          [B]Cop.IssueTicket()[/B]

    End If

End if

bowen

Well you're right. But the law's last sign says, "No u-turns anywhere, really, unless it says u-turns are allowed." Then follows that up with a "unless it's safe and traffic isn't interrupted."

bowen

Best bet is to get some free legal advice. It's probably interpretable both ways depending on how good the lawyer is.

PeregrineFalcon

stah wrote: »

PeregrineFalcon wrote: »

code-based argument

Hmm, I guess the lack of a comma in this sentence here makes yours correct ...

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

so the "reasonable safety" clause only applies to "any other location"

Guess in this case your best case is to argue a 3-point turn and ask how the fuck else you were supposed to turn around.

PeregrineFalcon

bowen wrote: »

Best bet is to get some free legal advice. It's probably interpretable both ways depending on how good the lawyer is.

If u-turning is a pointable offense and/or will hurt your insurance, this.

Otherwise you'd probably spend more on a lawyer than a $150 fine and you might still lose. :?

stah

bowen wrote: »

Well you're right. But the law's last sign says, "No u-turns anywhere, really, unless it says u-turns are allowed." Then follows that up with a "unless it's safe and traffic isn't interrupted."

Can you highlight that? I'm really not seeing where it says it.

This is why lawyers go to school for this and get paid big bucks to interpret this. And I already admitted to not being a lawyer.


EDIT:

Also, would a 3-Point Turn not still be covered under this law like I pointed out earlier?

eatmosushi

i might be wrong actually.

maybe it's, "all other locations unless at those other locations the u-turn is performed safely"

bowen

I'd wager that the law was probably mistyped or misprinted since it really, really seems like the comma should be there. But if the fine doesn't give points then pay it, because none of us are lawyers and it probably wouldn't do you any good. Unlike times where you're asked to clean up messes that aren't yours, or repair damage you didn't cause. The cop probably knows the laws better than you or we do.

eatmosushi

im a first year law student (dropped out after year 1 because C+ lawyer wont make 1,000,000 a year)

geckahn

Yeah if this is your first offense just go to your court date and talk to the prosecutor/city attorney who's doing the plea deals. This is how it works in most areas . . but may not be the case with you.

I just got a $430 dollar speeding ticket (49 in a 25 in a residential zoned area) cut down to $180 by just talking to the city attorney. I didn't even bother with a sob story.

bowen

That's also a bit different than a u-turn at night with no traffic, though.

geckahn

bowen wrote: »

That's also a bit different than a u-turn at night with no traffic, though.

Yeah. So you can hope for a very good deal from the prosecutor, and if that does not work then plead not guilty and then explain to the judge what happened. It shouldn't go to trial or anything (in most states). It'll just be you talking tot he judge for a few minutes.

Under no circumstance should you plead guilty. or guilty with an explanation. If you do that, the judge can't do a whole lot for you.

John Matrix

eatmosushi wrote: »

im a first year law student (dropped out after year 1 because C+ lawyer wont make 1,000,000 a year)

You did the right thing. A lawyer who doesn't make cool mil a year cannot be happy.

stah

John Matrix wrote: »

eatmosushi wrote: »

im a first year law student (dropped out after year 1 because C+ lawyer wont make 1,000,000 a year)

You did the right thing. A lawyer who doesn't make cool mil a year cannot be happy.

Yeah but a lawyer who's only making C+'s should prolly find a better line of work. o_O

He did indeed do the right thing.

Note: I mean no offense to eatmosushi at ALL!

Kyougu

stah wrote: »

PeregrineFalcon wrote: »

IANAL but here's how I'm parsing this:

No vehicle shall be turned so as to proceed in the opposite direction within an intersection, or upon any street in a business district, or upon a freeway, expressway or controlled-access highway, or where authorized signs are erected to prohibit such movement, or at any other location unless such movement can be made with reasonable safety to other users of the street and without interfering with the safe operation of any traffic that may be affected by such movement.

Think this way:

If [B]prohibitedCondition(YourDriving)[/B] AND NOT [B]action.WasSafe[/B]
{
   fine($150);
}

The fact that the action was safe and did not interfere with any traffic (there not being any) negates the conditions that prohibit it.

That sounds good...but it's not the way the the law was written.

It's more like

If ([B]prohibitedCondition(YourDriving)[/B] Then

  [B]Cop.IssueTicket()[/B]

Else
    If ([B]Action.WasSafe = Tru[/B]e) AND ([B]Traffic.WasInterrupted = False[/B]) Then

        [B]Cop.Ignore()[/B]

    Else

          [B]Cop.IssueTicket()[/B]

    End If

End if

......

I'm tempted to report this for awesome, even if I didn't understand the coding lingo.

eatmosushi

no offense taken. i know where my strengths lie / where the $ is.

Andrew_Jay

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