Well yeah in PvE you can technically tank by abusing range, but it's not particularly well-controlled and not really worth it except for limited builds in limited areas. Anyway, that is all GW1 stuff...
I think we can definitely expect aggro to be more chaotic in GW2 with dynamic events and all. This is a good thing.
GW2 is more like Diablo style than standard MMO style, so there is no need for a tank. If it was going to have raids in the vein of the more typical MMO, then sure, maybe it would matter, but it's a different kind of game.
Joshmvii on
0
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
I didn't realize tanking worked at all in MMO PVP, since, well, people generally have brains.
But then, GW is the only MMO I play.
I do remember one guild brought W/E earth tank against us. He made a nice, slow moving adrenaline battery for our warriors. That was really nice of them.
Like I said, tanking in pvp is about making the tanks so dangerous or annoying that the enemy is forced to (or just really wants to) attack them. It can be done.
Like I said, tanking in pvp is about making the tanks so dangerous or annoying that the enemy is forced to (or just really wants to) attack them. It can be done.
You mean in other MMOs? Because, not really in Guild Wars. Nothing is more important than depriving the enemy team of their monks. Whether you are pressuring their front line, spiking their midline, it's all in an effort to reveal an opening to their backline, and hit the monks.
Like I said, tanking in pvp is about making the tanks so dangerous or annoying that the enemy is forced to (or just really wants to) attack them. It can be done.
You mean in other MMOs? Because, not really in Guild Wars. Nothing is more important than depriving the enemy team of their monks. Whether you are pressuring their front line, spiking their midline, it's all in an effort to reveal an opening to their backline, and hit the monks.
Of course that's the end game, but if they can be just as much of a threat to your back line and are in a better position then, especially in less organized fights, it's not so hard to get a lot of people targeting specific players. I even saw it happen in GW1, but that was a long time ago. I'm mostly referencing other team based action rpgs, like dota.
In dota there are heroes who people consider tanks, and they often have a lot of hp or defence, and there are other heroes who are squishy aoe or support. Whenever there's a big team fight there are only 2 reasons that anyone with a brain will attack a tanky hero over the back line. The first is positioning, and the second is that the tank is just as dangerous or threatens their own dps. This is how they draw real aggor, and why tanks can't just be heroes who are hard to kill. I can see that system translating easily into smaller scale pvp games like Guild Wars.
Like I said, tanking in pvp is about making the tanks so dangerous or annoying that the enemy is forced to (or just really wants to) attack them. It can be done.
You mean in other MMOs? Because, not really in Guild Wars. Nothing is more important than depriving the enemy team of their monks. Whether you are pressuring their front line, spiking their midline, it's all in an effort to reveal an opening to their backline, and hit the monks.
That's the point, this is an example of failed tanks. The whole idea of a tank is that they prevent you from beelining for the squishies. Age of Conan gave tanks an offensive mode that gave them really good damage but made them very vulnerable, thus incentivizing the other team to attack them to make them turn it off, but I don't know if it worked because that game sucked. Personally I prefer the idea of giving tanks crowd control and support abilities that penalize enemy players for targeting their teammates. Actual forced taunts in PvP suck.
Zek on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
League of Legends deals with tanking in an interesting way: most tanks have some manner of initializing abilities (charging into the enemy etc.), which ensures that in a regular game there's at least one DPS who focuses on the heavily armored tank rather than the squishies because bad players just attackmove and attack whatever comes in range first.
Most tanks also have quite high AoE damage so you want to deal with them one way or another before you can go for the squishies, because the tank will melt your team down if left unchecked. Tanks are big "use your crowd control cooldown HERE" beacons.
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
It's not really tanks (I hate that term in PvP, no one tanks, because you just avoid people tanking) failing, it's monks being so fucking important.
Warriors can kill even another warrior in a single adrenaline burst if they are build right. A backbreaker warrior? Hope you aren't over extended when he catches you. Eviscerate warrior? Hope you get up from the Shock he hit you with before your die. Warriors are absolutely nothing to sneeze at, and are the deadliest class in the game.
Monks are more important, plain and simple. A monk can negate that adrenaline burst with a single skill. And decent monks will negate that burst. Decent monks rarely let people die, unless they just aren't built to deal with the damage being thrown at them (like, infuse monks against a pressure build). That hammer warrior is the biggest threat to your team, but that monk is the biggest threat to you winning the game.
So, again, it's not a failing of warriors not being threatening enough - they are plenty threatening, moreso than any other class. It's a failing of monks being way, way more powerful than any other class regarding actually winning a match.
-Loki- on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Initiation is another thing that would be very nice in a pvp mmo but I doubt will happen any time soon.
WoW Warriors have charge. Go into a battleground and charge into the enemy forces and quite a few of them are going to focus on you rather than the squishy healer keeping you alive.
Initiation is another thing that would be very nice in a pvp mmo but I doubt will happen any time soon.
WoW Warriors have charge. Go into a battleground and charge into the enemy forces and quite a few of them are going to focus on you rather than the squishy healer keeping you alive.
True that.. I had a lot of fun as a protection (tank) warrior in WoW PvP just soaking up damage from idiot DPS who didn't know better.
In GW2 warriors will get some "charge"-like abilities with certain weapon sets, it seems. Expect them to be all up in your face frequently.
League of Legends deals with tanking in an interesting way: most tanks have some manner of initializing abilities (charging into the enemy etc.), which ensures that in a regular game there's at least one DPS who focuses on the heavily armored tank rather than the squishies because bad players just attackmove and attack whatever comes in range first.
Most tanks also have quite high AoE damage so you want to deal with them one way or another before you can go for the squishies, because the tank will melt your team down if left unchecked. Tanks are big "use your crowd control cooldown HERE" beacons.
DotA is different though because those fights are over in a matter of seconds, so proper initiation is a really huge deal.
Does the "every class can heal" concept imply that you can't make a spec of any class that is primarily a healing role?
Because I can't see it working any other way, which would be a shame.
Yes. there's no dedicated healing role anymore. All classes get a powerful self heal, and support roles have the monks role spread across them. There's some skills for healing other people, and removing conditions from other people, on a lot of different classes. Though those classes will primarily be performing their function, not being dedicated to healing.
The idea is to move away from having a dedicated healer.
-Loki- on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Heal: Don't belittle the SUPPORT role by calling it heal. Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is. It is reactive instead of proactive. Healing is for when you are already losing. In Guild Wars 2 we prefer that you support your allies before they take a beating. Sure, there are some healing spells in Guild Wars 2, but they make up a small portion of the support lines that are spread throughout the professions. Other kinds of support include buffs, active defense, and cross-profession combinations.
Heal: Don't belittle the SUPPORT role by calling it heal. Healing is the least dynamic kind of support there is. It is reactive instead of proactive. Healing is for when you are already losing. In Guild Wars 2 we prefer that you support your allies before they take a beating. Sure, there are some healing spells in Guild Wars 2, but they make up a small portion of the support lines that are spread throughout the professions. Other kinds of support include buffs, active defense, and cross-profession combinations.
This was always my favorite part of the Guild Wars 1 "healing" philosophy. In higher level play, it always centered around protection rather than healing, which is just so much more interesting than playing whack-a-mole. Don't get me wrong, I've played healers in other MMOs and enjoyed it thoroughly, but it was nothing compared to playing a protection monk in GW. Throwing the right skill on a target could easily save him from 2-3 attackers for a few seconds, while if you didn't know what you were doing, you could spam spells on him like mad and he wouldn't survive. I was actually very upset when I heard they were removing monks from GW2, but I trust that the support roles that various classes can provide will still be awesome. After making the GW1 protection skill line, I'm on board with them for anything.
Vi Monks on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
If all the events are as complex as this one is shaping up to be, this game is going to be truly outstanding.
Can't help but think designing it must be so much fun.
The game isn't just fun, it radiates fun because it is injected with hot, gooey fun right from the development up. They sit around a table and use their imaginations. And this game lets them do it.
It still bugs me that NO ONE payed any attention to Warhammer's response to the PvP tanking question, and used the methods and concepts to be relevent in PvE as well.
What is a tanks job? Save people. How? Keep their attention... Or keep them from GETTING there.
Knock dudes down, roots, snares, so on.
Theres whole swaths of untouched concept here, really, toss a divine sanctuary there for people to dive into to dump aggro, grab the squishie by his collar and throw him out of the furball, set up walls of flame to funnel the horde in a certain direction, ROOTS AND KNOCKDOWNS cannot be undersold in concept, or knockbacks, or illusions or hiding guys or... Gah. It just bugs me that the best the industry can seem to get its collective head around is "Yell at them untill they ignore the guy keeping me standing."
Teyar on
Kick At The Darkness Until It Bleeds Daylight
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Tank: This is where Guild Wars 2 makes the biggest break from the traditional MMO setup. Tanking is the most rudimentary form of the most important combat fundamental, CONTROL. Every game has it, yet it always seems to get a bad name. In Guild Wars there was Knockdown, Interrupt, Weakness, Blind, and Cripple, to name a few. We wanted to build upon what we think makes control such an important part of dynamic combat.
Control is the only thing versatile enough to get away from the rock-paper-scissors gameplay of other MMOs. It's healing when you need it, its damage when you need it. It is the glue that holds together our system. From controlling movement to controlling damage, there are tons of exciting dynamic scenarios that control can set up. You can use a stun to save an ally or to finish off a fleeing enemy. Immobilize that warrior to get away from them, or use it on an elementalist to close in on them. In order to use it well, we had to understand the drawbacks of control too. How often can you do it? How excessive is the duration? How does it affect the difficulty of challenges you face?
There are a lot of different levels of control, from a simple cripple, to an immobilize, to a knockdown. Each one has its place. The more devastating control effects are, the more infrequently they need to occur, and their duration needs to be shorter. Knockdown is one of the strongest forms of control in Guild Wars 2, but you won't see a character that can just keep knocking someone down indefinitely, and you won't see a knockdown that puts an enemy out for so long that they won't be able to react. It's simply a tool that players have at their disposal to use at the right times to turn the tide of a battle.
GW2Guru: Crafting and gathering are hot topics right now, can you elaborate on either of those, and how they will impact a players experience?
Eric Flannum: It wasn’t really our intent to be coy with the FAQ and avoid answering the question about whether or not there’s crafting in the game so let me start by saying that there is definitely crafting in the game. We’re still designing many of the specifics but players should expect crafting to enhance their adventuring experience and not be a system that tries to replace it. What I mean when I say that is that crafting will not be something players can engage in as a career without ever going out and slaying monsters and being a hero. We think that systems that allow players to do that can be a lot of fun but just aren’t right for what we’re doing in GW2. Expect a crafting system that has multiple crafting professions, discourages player conflict over resource nodes, no “throw away” crafting of items that you don’t care about, and generally works with and enhances all of the other game systems in GW2.
I can't remember where, but they said resource nodes spawn for each player. That is, if you pick a flower, you have to wait for it to respawn, but all the other players in the area will still be able to pick it themselves. I believe this also goes for quest objects.
So it sounds like we have our first real Third Wave MMO on our hands then, with FF14 being the other big name if they can get it all straightened out. Blizzard dosent have any anouncements, or are they caught in the brilliant business plan of delivering the same ice cream forever?
So it sounds like we have our first real Third Wave MMO on our hands then, with FF14 being the other big name if they can get it all straightened out. Blizzard dosent have any anouncements, or are they caught in the brilliant business plan of delivering the same ice cream forever?
Posts
I think we can definitely expect aggro to be more chaotic in GW2 with dynamic events and all. This is a good thing.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
I didn't realize tanking worked at all in MMO PVP, since, well, people generally have brains.
But then, GW is the only MMO I play.
I do remember one guild brought W/E earth tank against us. He made a nice, slow moving adrenaline battery for our warriors. That was really nice of them.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
You mean in other MMOs? Because, not really in Guild Wars. Nothing is more important than depriving the enemy team of their monks. Whether you are pressuring their front line, spiking their midline, it's all in an effort to reveal an opening to their backline, and hit the monks.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Of course that's the end game, but if they can be just as much of a threat to your back line and are in a better position then, especially in less organized fights, it's not so hard to get a lot of people targeting specific players. I even saw it happen in GW1, but that was a long time ago. I'm mostly referencing other team based action rpgs, like dota.
In dota there are heroes who people consider tanks, and they often have a lot of hp or defence, and there are other heroes who are squishy aoe or support. Whenever there's a big team fight there are only 2 reasons that anyone with a brain will attack a tanky hero over the back line. The first is positioning, and the second is that the tank is just as dangerous or threatens their own dps. This is how they draw real aggor, and why tanks can't just be heroes who are hard to kill. I can see that system translating easily into smaller scale pvp games like Guild Wars.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
That's the point, this is an example of failed tanks. The whole idea of a tank is that they prevent you from beelining for the squishies. Age of Conan gave tanks an offensive mode that gave them really good damage but made them very vulnerable, thus incentivizing the other team to attack them to make them turn it off, but I don't know if it worked because that game sucked. Personally I prefer the idea of giving tanks crowd control and support abilities that penalize enemy players for targeting their teammates. Actual forced taunts in PvP suck.
Most tanks also have quite high AoE damage so you want to deal with them one way or another before you can go for the squishies, because the tank will melt your team down if left unchecked. Tanks are big "use your crowd control cooldown HERE" beacons.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
Warriors can kill even another warrior in a single adrenaline burst if they are build right. A backbreaker warrior? Hope you aren't over extended when he catches you. Eviscerate warrior? Hope you get up from the Shock he hit you with before your die. Warriors are absolutely nothing to sneeze at, and are the deadliest class in the game.
Monks are more important, plain and simple. A monk can negate that adrenaline burst with a single skill. And decent monks will negate that burst. Decent monks rarely let people die, unless they just aren't built to deal with the damage being thrown at them (like, infuse monks against a pressure build). That hammer warrior is the biggest threat to your team, but that monk is the biggest threat to you winning the game.
So, again, it's not a failing of warriors not being threatening enough - they are plenty threatening, moreso than any other class. It's a failing of monks being way, way more powerful than any other class regarding actually winning a match.
WoW Warriors have charge. Go into a battleground and charge into the enemy forces and quite a few of them are going to focus on you rather than the squishy healer keeping you alive.
True that.. I had a lot of fun as a protection (tank) warrior in WoW PvP just soaking up damage from idiot DPS who didn't know better.
In GW2 warriors will get some "charge"-like abilities with certain weapon sets, it seems. Expect them to be all up in your face frequently.
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
DotA is different though because those fights are over in a matter of seconds, so proper initiation is a really huge deal.
Because I can't see it working any other way, which would be a shame.
If the president had any real power, he'd be able to live wherever the fuck he wanted.
Yes. there's no dedicated healing role anymore. All classes get a powerful self heal, and support roles have the monks role spread across them. There's some skills for healing other people, and removing conditions from other people, on a lot of different classes. Though those classes will primarily be performing their function, not being dedicated to healing.
The idea is to move away from having a dedicated healer.
Yes, that's what it means. There will be no pure healers in GW2. You can spec your character to be support oriented, but not into a full healer.
This was always my favorite part of the Guild Wars 1 "healing" philosophy. In higher level play, it always centered around protection rather than healing, which is just so much more interesting than playing whack-a-mole. Don't get me wrong, I've played healers in other MMOs and enjoyed it thoroughly, but it was nothing compared to playing a protection monk in GW. Throwing the right skill on a target could easily save him from 2-3 attackers for a few seconds, while if you didn't know what you were doing, you could spam spells on him like mad and he wouldn't survive. I was actually very upset when I heard they were removing monks from GW2, but I trust that the support roles that various classes can provide will still be awesome. After making the GW1 protection skill line, I'm on board with them for anything.
They've said that one of the classes will appeal to the people who liked playing Prot Monks.
Ohhh, I did not know that. That's excellent! :^:
If the president had any real power, he'd be able to live wherever the fuck he wanted.
The whole events panel.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
If all the events are as complex as this one is shaping up to be, this game is going to be truly outstanding.
Can't help but think designing it must be so much fun.
The game isn't just fun, it radiates fun because it is injected with hot, gooey fun right from the development up. They sit around a table and use their imaginations. And this game lets them do it.
Event panel will be in the OP momentarily.
What is a tanks job? Save people. How? Keep their attention... Or keep them from GETTING there.
Knock dudes down, roots, snares, so on.
Theres whole swaths of untouched concept here, really, toss a divine sanctuary there for people to dive into to dump aggro, grab the squishie by his collar and throw him out of the furball, set up walls of flame to funnel the horde in a certain direction, ROOTS AND KNOCKDOWNS cannot be undersold in concept, or knockbacks, or illusions or hiding guys or... Gah. It just bugs me that the best the industry can seem to get its collective head around is "Yell at them untill they ignore the guy keeping me standing."
Whats next... Crafting! What've they got for crafting?
I didn't know blacksmiths worked any other way =/
Ya, as much as i'll miss pasting golem testicles to my new sword hilt, this is just the better future for crafting.
Only now we'll have no way to control the Golem population.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
Steam (Ansatz) || GW2 officer (Ansatz.6498)
Maybe that is the answer...
Fixed.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.