Pre Fight Debate Thread: Brackets 25 & 26

Doctor Doom

Bracket 25



Mandarin

Powers: Scientific genius and skilled martial artist. Ten alien rings.

* Left Pinkie — "Ice Blast," with which he could encase foes in bands of ice or create walls of ice to block pursuers.
* Left Ring Finger — "Mental-Intensifier," which amplifies the Mandarin's own mental energies and allows him to control the minds of others.
* Left Middle Finger — "Electro Blast," unleashing powerful lightning-like bolts.
* Left Index Finger — "Flame Blast," a flamethrower-like gout of flame.
* Left Thumb — "White Light," a laser-like beam.
* Right Thumb — "Matter Rearranger," which can rearrange the atoms and molecules of a substance. The Mandarin usually uses this ring to change the shape of objects, such as causing a giant stone hand to erupt out of the earth and grapple a foe. He has, however, used it to transmute the molecular composition of objects, such as changing the air around a target into a poisonous gas.
* Right Index Finger — "Impact Beam," a blast of concussive or gravitational force.
* Right Middle Finger — "Vortex Beam," allows Mandarin to control air and wind, allowing him to fly.
* Right Ring Finger — "Disintegration Beam." Unlike the others, this Ring requires a twenty minute recharge time between firings.
* Right Pinkie — "Black Light," which can create areas of absolute blackness.

VS.



Ultron (YES HE'S MADE OF ADAMANTIUM SHUT UP ALREADY)

Powers:
* Superhuman strength, speed and durability
* Flight
* Energy blasts
* Force fields generation
* Hypnosis
* Genius-level intellect


Environment: Avengers Mansion, Pre-Disassembled

Bracket 26



Loki

Powers: Vast magical powers, typical superhuman attributes of Asgardian race such as extended longevity and superhuman strength, great intellect, shape-shifter

VS



Despero

Powers: Telepathy, Hypnotism, Psychokinesis, Teleportation, Superhuman strength and endurance, Genius-level intelligence

Environment: Mars.

NinjaSquirrel

I'm thinking Ultron and Despero advance.

I might change Mandarin in for Ultron depending on just how effective his rings are against the big metal robot.

I don't really see any way for Loki to beat Despero though.

DarkPrimus

Matter Rearranger? Sounds like Mandarin could make Ultron soup.

Bloods End

Ultron

Despero

Werewulfy

Ultron's gonna fry Mandy in the first one.

I gotta hand it to the Trickster in the second, "vast magical powers" trumps 99% of anything anyone can do.

Spectre-x

Ultron will win because, despite Mandarin's full arsenal being available to him, Ultron is still a bunch of times smarter and knows everything about Mandarin.

His reaction time is also far superior.

robosagogo

I have no idea what it takes to beat Loki or Despero in a fight.

Munkus Beaver

Uhhhhhh

Ultron

uhhhhhh

Loki?

DasUberEdward

Yeah. Ultorn v Mandarin just comes down to fact. Facts which I'm not too sure on but the victor should be pretty clear.

However, this Loki v Despero deal is insane. My instinct says the trickster could lead Despero on the longest manhunt in history. Can Despero die of old age? That may be the case before he can kill the Asgardian.

Crayon

Mandarin because he can rearrange the molecular property of Adamantium to expose Ultrons innards, which are easily fucked with.

Loki because it's still a god versus an alien.

Synthetic Orange

* Right Thumb — "Matter Rearranger," which can rearrange the atoms and molecules of a substance.

Wiki wrote:

Ultron's Adamantium forms have proven vulnerable to molecular rearrangement devices

Furu

Yes, but you have to hit Ultron with it. Easier said than done.

Also, I'm sure he has force fields for that type of thing these days.

That said, Ultron takes the first one. For coolness sake he hypnotises Mandarin and makes him blow his own head off with the disentigration beam.


And I give the second to Despero for home-field advantage (SPACE!) and I really want to see him and Ultron throw down.

Caveman Paws

Initially I wanted Mandarin to win, but then I thought "He fights Iron-Man all the time. And never wins!" So that fact alone convinces me that Ultron will advance.

Loki > Despero. Despero is badass sure, but Loki is a god, been around forever, blah,blah,blah, magic, etc.

Charmy

The "Mandarin loses to Iron Man" argument pretty much convinces me here. If he can't beat a man in a robot suit, how is he going to beat an indestructable robot?

The Loki/Despero fight is tough, but I'm not sure I can give it to Loki just because he's a God. They're fighting on Mars, and the lack of anything besides desolation is going to prevent Loki from using his manipulating abilities to his fullest extent; no native population to use and what-not. I am conditionally giving this to Despero, unless further information comes to light.

Crayon

Mandarin loses because that is what is SUPPOSE to happen. They've never written mandarin close to the power level he actually has.

And no, Ultron doesn't have force fields these days. A device that rearranges atoms wouldn't worry too much about a force field anyways as it would change the molecules of the force field itself.

All you saying Ultron wins are homps.

Synthetic Orange

But Ultron loses all the time too. The last time, Ultron was beaten by the Runaways. Then there was the time he was tricked into eating a booby-trapped cookie while dressed as Santa. And when Hank hit him with a rock until he stopped working.

Marathon

Ultron has force fields, that will be enough to stop the matter rearranger and give him the win.

Crayon wrote:

And no, Ultron doesn't have force fields these days. .

It clearly states up in his list of powers that he does. So as far as this fight is concerned he does. The ring would probably change the matter of the force field..but then it would be wasted and give Ultron an opening.

Loki and Despero....yeah that's a tough one. I can't see any clear advantage for one over another. Despero is tough, but Loki is magic.

tsplitter

im not seeing any rules that say Despero cant use telepathy

robocop is bleeding

Didn't Daredevil beat an Adamantium Ultron to death with a stick? So either Ultron isn't as tough as some have been preaching in this fight, or you have to admit that "The Hero With His Name On The Book Wins" and the whole 'Mandarin Loses To Iron Man' argument is out because Tony's name is on the cover.

Blackjack

Synthetic Orange wrote:

But Ultron loses all the time too. The last time, Ultron was beaten by the Runaways. Then there was the time he was tricked into eating a booby-trapped cookie while dressed as Santa. And when Hank hit him with a rock until he stopped working.

Actually, the Runaways couldn't beat him. Nico almost did but her best spell could barely hold him off. It took Ricochet, Turbo, and Darkhawk to take him out of commision.

Also, that hardly counts as that was Ultron's head on a bunch of scrap metal. He was hardly at his prime.

Which is not to say that The Mandarin has no chance. Just that the Ultron that was in Runaways was really, really weak.

Munkus Beaver

tsplitter wrote:

im not seeing any rules that say Despero cant use telepathy

How well does that work on an Asgardian?

Synthetic Orange

robocop is bleeding wrote:

Didn't Daredevil beat an Adamantium Ultron to death with a stick? So either Ultron isn't as tough as some have been preaching in this fight, or you have to admit that "The Hero With His Name On The Book Wins" and the whole 'Mandarin Loses To Iron Man' argument is out because Tony's name is on the cover.

Wow. And it's not with DD's usual fighting sticks either. It's just a tree branch. Talk about degrading.

DraXXXen

For the OP, I am going to assume you mean the ORIGINAL Mandarin, and not his son which is pictured on that cover (experience is the key difference here)

Ultron, while being a major powerhouse, is in for a major battle with Mandarin. I'll give this one Mandarin simply based on his experience and very villians ways of dispatching foes (Such as teleporting chinese guards to the moon, letting them die on the surface, then teleporting them back to china for proper burials by their families. badass.)
He can deal with armored foes, and dragons...and now, a robot.

As for Loki vs Despero...hmm..if it gets close all out brawl battle (which I dont think it will come to) then Despero, but otherwise trickery and such...Loki.

DraXXXen

Note for all those saying Mandarin has not beat Iron Man before, he has...but many plot devices end up saving Tony (or Rhodes, or misc Avengers or anyone else).
The main difference between 'Mandarin vs Iron Man' or 'Mandarin vs Ultron' is that he has made his quest against Tony a personal one and it really clouds his judgment. He much prefers to draw out the fight and enjoy it, against anyone else (such as ultron) he really would not care and just dispatch them as quickly as possible so he could get back to being evil. (Armor Wars 2 era mandarin was the perfect version, one badass cold mo'fo)

RonnieWooWoo!

tsplitter wrote:

im not seeing any rules that say Despero cant use telepathy

Trying to mind control Loki would be like trying to drown Namor. It's his "thing", I can't imagine it working against him too well.

As for the Ultron/Mandarin thing....I don't know, Ultron just seems a lot more durable. Ultron might be able to take two, even three shots from Mandarin's matter disruptor ring before breaking, but I can't see Mandarin's green bathrobe being able to stop even one of Ultron's blasts.

Bogart

robocop is bleeding wrote:

Didn't Daredevil beat an Adamantium Ultron to death with a stick? So either Ultron isn't as tough as some have been preaching in this fight, or you have to admit that "The Hero With His Name On The Book Wins" and the whole 'Mandarin Loses To Iron Man' argument is out because Tony's name is on the cover.

Man, that link led me to another blog that covers the bit in Acts of Vengeance! where Magneto creams the Red Skull. Such a great crossover. Also, not reading much Daredevil at the time I had no clue Doom picked his car-keys out of the hero-swapping goldfish bowl all the villains passed around, but finding out that he sends Ultron out to waste Murdock makes me love Doom ten times as much. Doom does not half time for half-measures with this blind fool. Bring me the genocidal death-robot!

Uh, Ultron and Loki to win.

NinjaSquirrel

For all the people saying Loki, how is he actually going to beat Despero? Trickery isn't really that useful once you start fighting and since they're on a planet without any current inhabitants, there's really nowhere for Loki to hide. Despero can use his telepathy to just locate Loki, as I doubt Loki would be easily mind-controlled, then teleport behind Loki and a good punch to the back followed up by many more punches and/or mind bullets.

Eventually Loki and Despero will have to actually fight, and when that happens I do not see any way for Loki to actually win. His blows won't hit hard enough to do anything to Despero, olol trickery doesn't work so well in a fight only in setting up the fight and I think Despero would be able to handle the vast magical powers just fine seeing as how he can handle the JLA mystics fine.

Spectre-x

Despero enslaved a cosmic entity or some shit with his telepathy. It can be therefore assumed that he could at least read Loki's mind and affect it to some extent, albeit a small one.

RonnieWooWoo!

Spectre-x wrote:

Despero enslaved a cosmic entity or some shit with his telepathy. It can be therefore assumed that he could at least read Loki's mind and affect it to some extent, albeit a small one.

And Loki posessed Odin's body for a few months, so what would keep him from doing that to Despero?...I think this fight/debate is going to stay a lot cleaner if we leave that kind of crap out of it.

Synthetic Orange

Which Mars is it then, DC or Marvel? And are the Avengers home? Which team?

NinjaSquirrel

RonnieWooWoo! wrote:

Spectre-x wrote:

Despero enslaved a cosmic entity or some shit with his telepathy. It can be therefore assumed that he could at least read Loki's mind and affect it to some extent, albeit a small one.

And Loki posessed Odin's body for a few months, so what would keep him from doing that to Despero?...I think this fight/debate is going to stay a lot cleaner if we leave that kind of crap out of it.

OK, so leaving cosmic entities and gods out of this, we still have Despero controlling the Martian Manhunter. That would be roughly on par with someone directly controlling the mind of Xavier. So I'm sure he has enough power to at least get into Loki's mind for a long enough duration to figure out where he is so he can go beat him to a pulp.

RonnieWooWoo!

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

so he can go beat him to a pulp.

I don't know, I just have a hard time believing that Despero has more raw power than Thor, who Loki's held his own against before with magical shielding and whatnot.

NinjaSquirrel

RonnieWooWoo! wrote:

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

so he can go beat him to a pulp.

I don't know, I just have a hard time believing that Despero has more raw power than Thor, who Loki's held his own against before with magical shielding and whatnot.

Well, he's stronger than Superman who has beat Thor. So I'd say he is stronger than Thor.

Wikipedia wrote:

Despero is a powerful villain. The Flame of Py'tar gave Despero physical strength and durability that surpasses beings like Superman and Captain Marvel. Also very intelligent, he is skilled as both a warrior and tyrant. His hypnotic third eye is directly connected to his brain, giving him telepathic powers that surpass (as seen in JLA #119) those of the Martian Manhunter. It is also capable of projecting realistic illusions and entrancing virtually any sentient being. It can also project beams of telekinetic energy enabling the teleportation of matter anywhere in the universe.

robosagogo

Loki doesn't get enough credit because he's kind of a niche villain and is largely restricted to a realm outside of where most of the heroes operate. That fact also means limited exposure for him, and poorly fleshed out abilities and limitations.

He did take over Asgard, though, and only lost because he had become disillusioned with conquest and, upon seeing Thor had broken free of his prison, tried to reason with him instead of resisting.

NinjaSquirrel

robosagogo wrote:

Loki doesn't get enough credit because he's kind of a niche villain and is largely restricted to a realm outside of where most of the heroes operate. That fact also means limited exposure for him, and poorly fleshed out abilities and limitations.

He did take over Asgard, though, and only lost because he had become disillusioned with conquest and, upon seeing Thor had broken free of his prison, tried to reason with him instead of resisting.

Didn't he have a sizable army to take Asgard? I'm not sure as I haven't read the comic itself, but wikipedia says that he lead all of Asgard's enemies against them in order to take it over.

Langly

Quick clarification question to Mandarin's disintegration ring: Does the ring destroy the body that it hits, or exactly what it hits? Like, if I got hit in the arm, would my body disintegrate, or would there simply be a hole in my arm exactly the size of the beam.

Cause, if it disintegrates a unit as a whole, no matter where it hits, then why isn't this seen as a win button? I think disintegration rays go through sheilds. At least I'd think they would.

NinjaSquirrel

Langly wrote:

Quick clarification question to Mandarin's disintegration ring: Does the ring destroy the body that it hits, or exactly what it hits? Like, if I got hit in the arm, would my body disintegrate, or would there simply be a hole in my arm exactly the size of the beam.

Cause, if it disintegrates a unit as a whole, no matter where it hits, then why isn't this seen as a win button? I think disintegration rays go through sheilds. At least I'd think they would.

Well, Iron Man has been hit by the disintegration ring and wasn't disintegrated, so I don't think it's an all powerful instantly vaporize whatever it hits type of thing, seems more like an area of effect high powered laser beam than an actual disintegrater.

robosagogo

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

robosagogo wrote:

Loki doesn't get enough credit because he's kind of a niche villain and is largely restricted to a realm outside of where most of the heroes operate. That fact also means limited exposure for him, and poorly fleshed out abilities and limitations.

He did take over Asgard, though, and only lost because he had become disillusioned with conquest and, upon seeing Thor had broken free of his prison, tried to reason with him instead of resisting.

Didn't he have a sizable army to take Asgard? I'm not sure as I haven't read the comic itself, but wikipedia says that he lead all of Asgard's enemies against them in order to take it over.

It's not as though leading an army is any small feat, least of all one that takes Asgard, and it's more than Despero has ever done.

RonnieWooWoo!

Wikipedia wrote:

His hypnotic third eye is directly connected to his brain, giving him telepathic powers.

Oh Jesus, Loki is definitely sticking something in that eye. A sprig of mistletoe, maybe? Norse Mythology= win.

Langly

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

Langly wrote:

Quick clarification question to Mandarin's disintegration ring: Does the ring destroy the body that it hits, or exactly what it hits? Like, if I got hit in the arm, would my body disintegrate, or would there simply be a hole in my arm exactly the size of the beam.

Cause, if it disintegrates a unit as a whole, no matter where it hits, then why isn't this seen as a win button? I think disintegration rays go through sheilds. At least I'd think they would.

Well, Iron Man has been hit by the disintegration ring and wasn't disintegrated, so I don't think it's an all powerful instantly vaporize whatever it hits type of thing, seems more like an area of effect high powered laser beam than an actual disintegrater.

Well then his publicity team should get on that. That's false advertising, that is.

NinjaSquirrel

robosagogo wrote:

NinjaSquirrel wrote:

robosagogo wrote:

Loki doesn't get enough credit because he's kind of a niche villain and is largely restricted to a realm outside of where most of the heroes operate. That fact also means limited exposure for him, and poorly fleshed out abilities and limitations.

He did take over Asgard, though, and only lost because he had become disillusioned with conquest and, upon seeing Thor had broken free of his prison, tried to reason with him instead of resisting.

Didn't he have a sizable army to take Asgard? I'm not sure as I haven't read the comic itself, but wikipedia says that he lead all of Asgard's enemies against them in order to take it over.

It's not as though leading an army is any small feat, least of all one that takes Asgard, and it's more than Despero has ever done.

He took over an entire planet through psychic oppression. One man took over an entire planet vs an army beating an army of about equal size or power. And leading an army, while not a small feat, is also something that many people have done and is really kinda easy to do when all the people you are leading want to fight the people you're fighting anyways and all you have to do is provide them the means of getting to the location where the people they want to destroy are.