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Pre Fight Debate Thread: Brackets 25 & 26

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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    That's an inaccurate comparison. Yes, Thor and MM willingly communicated, but it's not the same as speaking and shouting.

    MM can at the very least communicate with Asgardians, meaning that they are susceptible to telepathy. They are simply very resistant to mind control. Despero, however, is fantastically powerful telepathic abilities. So he would at least be able to enter Loki's mind.

    I'm not saying that he can definitely control Loki's mind, but I am saying that, because it is at least possible for a non-asgardian to communicate with an asgardian telepathically, Despero's mental abilities should not be discounted as factors in his possible victory.

    Actually, I'm of the opinion that Despero probably couldn't put Loki under mind control. However, he would still probably be able to read his mind and possibly distract him with a telepathic assault.

    Spectre-x on
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    RonnieWooWoo!RonnieWooWoo! Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    It seems like this one is going to come down to the numbers. There are plenty of valid scenarios for both guys to win, and it doesn't look like this debate is going to be changing anybody's mind or vote anytime soon.

    RonnieWooWoo! on
    Woo!
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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    It seems like this one is going to come down to the numbers. There are plenty of valid scenarios for both guys to win, and it doesn't look like this debate is going to be changing anybody's mind or vote anytime soon.

    No, No, I'm going to right now.

    We NEED Despero to win....DESPERATLEY.

    Because we ALL know that Ultron/Despero is probably the third best match this tourney can/could have given us.

    With the first being Taskmaster/Bullseye.

    And the seconed, which we were CLEARLY robbed of, Taskmaster Vs Lady Shiva.

    Fuck, Doom, make that an Exibition match or something, that NEEDS to happen!

    Transporter on
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    DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.

    DasUberEdward on
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    LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.

    I thought that Asgardian Gods were aliens.

    Langly on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.
    1. While they might have different special abilities they are still the same species so they would have a lot of physical similarities in how their bodies are made up. So it certainly would be harder to fuck with Loki's mind but it wouldn't be impossible.

    2. I don't really see the age difference being that big of a thing.

    3. No, but it worked on a life form that wasn't the same species as Despero, that is the point. His powers can work on things that aren't the same as him.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    deadonthestreetdeadonthestreet Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian.

    deadonthestreet on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Loki is a frost giant, not an Asgardian.
    This is a really good point. How did no one point this out earlier? It's kind of an important difference.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    As much as I want Loki to win this fight, you know he's gonna taunt Despero. This will be his downfall.

    BionicPenguin on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.

    1- No, that's not it at all, you're just saying things, this isn't the same. The fact that telepathic contact between a non-Asgardian and an Asgardian is possible shows that the Asgardian defences are largely conscious. They are presumably based mostly on willpower and various other minor mental defences. Despero is an incredibly powerful telepath, much more so than the Martian Manhunter who is at about Professor Xavier-level. Despero would at least be able to forcibly enter Loki's mind and confuse him.

    2- I'm pretty sure Thor wasn't the only guy to ever beat Loki. Nor do I think that Loki has never been defeated by non-Asgardians.

    3- Yes they are. The Asgardians are of a different species not of Despero's world, therefore they are aliens to him. They're aliens who also happen to be gods, but that doesn't really matter because Marver Comics gods aren't nearly as god-like as the word god would have you believe. They get beaten up by non-gods all the time. Loki's not a god, by the way, but a Frost Giant. This has already been mentioned, but whatever.


    My final point is that you should only really try to discuss things if you know anything about any of the contestants. Don't just make stuff up that sounds good to you.

    Spectre-x on
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    Dex DynamoDex Dynamo Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Can Loki summon things? We know he can't animate matter, but if he can summon a bunch of weak monsters to destract despero...

    Dex Dynamo on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Weak monsters aren't really going to distract Despero for long.

    Strong monsters will provide better distractions.

    Weak monsters will get holes punched in them.

    Spectre-x on
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    Dex DynamoDex Dynamo Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Weak monsters aren't really going to distract Despero for long.

    Strong monsters will provide better distractions.

    Weak monsters will get holes punched in them.

    Yes, but enough weak monsters will slow him down at least.

    Dex Dynamo on
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    MajidahMajidah Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Does anyone honestly think that this battle is going to come down to who's mind control dick is bigger? Loki's going to wear down Despero slowly but surely with magic. The only question is does Loki gloat about it. If he taunts Despero in corporeal form, even for a second iii's going to take him out, one punch.

    That's the thing. This is an easy but boring win for Loki. Despero's got no defense against magic (other than being one tough mambo jambo). Loki may not be able to hurt him much, but slowly (possibly over years) he can wear down big D and defeat him.

    Now these are precisely the fights that Loki loses. He COULD defeat Thor with magic no problem, but he really, really wants to beat him physically. I'd be so much cooler. He's like a great counterstrike player who pulls out the knife so that when he kills his opponent it's just that little bit more shameful. If he gives Despero one chance, big D won't need a second.

    Majidah on
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2007
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Langly wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.

    I thought that Asgardian Gods were aliens.

    That's just Earth X continuity. I don't think it's 616 canon.

    DarkPrimus on
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    DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.


    My final point is that you should only really try to discuss things if you know anything about any of the contestants. Don't just make stuff up that sounds good to you.
    Well my final point has two decisive factors. Is Loki in Sandman counted in this tournament? I'd figure having the DC Loki go against the DC Despero would make more sense, but if we are only using his Marvel powers then I have another accurate depiction of how very wrong you are.

    DasUberEdward on
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    Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    1.Thor
    2. several hundreds of years old
    3. lots of alien species



    4. Stabbing him with an enchanted rock in his third eye wouldn't work very well, because that either requires getting close to him or just out-right attacking him, neither of which are Loki's style. And there's the fact that Despero is an incredibly powerful telekinetic.
    1. Okay, Thor's thing is being a big scary guy with a large hammer. So to say that MM could communicate with him isn't much. It's like saying since person X can beat up the God of Poetry and Fine Wine they can obviously beat up the God of War if he is of the same parthenon.

    2. Several hundreds of years versues is practically an infant to Loki. He's been around since there was a place to be around.

    3. Aliens are not Asgardian Gods.

    4. You're right.
    --
    Loki takes this one with magic. The battles Loki loses are lost because in most instances he's being driven by his devious nature to prank, trick and cause chaos. Loki has everything Despero has to some degree AND magic. Despero loses.


    My final point is that you should only really try to discuss things if you know anything about any of the contestants. Don't just make stuff up that sounds good to you.
    Well my final point has two decisive factors. Is Loki in Sandman counted in this tournament? I'd figure having the DC Loki go against the DC Despero would make more sense, but if we are only using his Marvel powers then I have another accurate depiction of how very wrong you are.

    Having DC Loki in this tourney wouldn't even be a fight.

    Bloods End on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    Spectre-x on
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    robocop is bleedingrobocop is bleeding Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Despero isn't the only person that Loki can trick in this fight. There's always fooling around with the rules or, gasp, tricking Doom.

    I agree with the sentiment that this fight would likely become a stalemate. I see Loki as the likely one to break the stalemate by trying to bargain with Despero. Is there anything Despero wants that Loki can provide? Vice versa? I don't think Loki sees any shame in taking a dive, provided he can get a favor out of Despero in return.

    But then again, I'm in the Mandarin-knocks-Ultron's-head-off-with-a-tree-branch camp, so what do I know?

    robocop is bleeding on

    Waitsing.jpg
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    delphinusdelphinus Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    where the hell is doom with the voting thread?

    delphinus on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    delphinus wrote:
    where the hell is doom with the voting thread?
    Well he has an entire country to run dude. Official Latverian business takes precedence over our villain tournament.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    That's a good point.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
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    The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    Loki is a god BASED around cunning.

    The Muffin Man on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    Loki is a god BASED around cunning.
    I think you guys are playing up this "god" thing too much. Marvel gods are pretty weak, all gettin beat on by mortals all the time.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Spectre-x wrote:
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    Loki is a god BASED around cunning.
    I think you guys are playing up this "god" thing too much. Marvel gods are pretty weak, all gettin beat on by mortals all the time.

    But in this case his physical strength doesn't really have anything to do with his cunning.

    Marathon on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Marathon wrote:
    Spectre-x wrote:
    People are confusing intellect with cunning.

    Despero may be smart as shit, but you don't get more cunning than the guy who invented cunning.

    Despero is pretty fucking cunning.

    Loki is a god BASED around cunning.
    I think you guys are playing up this "god" thing too much. Marvel gods are pretty weak, all gettin beat on by mortals all the time.

    But in this case his physical strength doesn't really have anything to do with his cunning.
    I was using weak not just in the physical sense but more as a "they aren't omnipotent at what they do" sense. Loki isn't impossible to trick and he can't trick everyone.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Despero's never tricked anyone and has been defeated through trickery, though, so Loki definitely has the leg up.

    robosagogo on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    robosagogo wrote:
    Despero's never tricked anyone and has been defeated through trickery, though, so Loki definitely has the leg up.
    The thing that the Martian Manhunter did wasn't so much trickery as much as it was a major mind fuck. He used his telepathic abilities to make Despero believe he had won.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    robosagogorobosagogo Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    robosagogo wrote:
    Despero's never tricked anyone and has been defeated through trickery, though, so Loki definitely has the leg up.
    The thing that the Martian Manhunter did wasn't so much trickery as much as it was a major mind fuck. He used his telepathic abilities to make Despero believe he had won.
    And Despero's supposed to be a stronger telepath than Manhunter.

    robosagogo on
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    NinjaSquirrelNinjaSquirrel Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    robosagogo wrote:
    robosagogo wrote:
    Despero's never tricked anyone and has been defeated through trickery, though, so Loki definitely has the leg up.
    The thing that the Martian Manhunter did wasn't so much trickery as much as it was a major mind fuck. He used his telepathic abilities to make Despero believe he had won.
    And Despero's supposed to be a stronger telepath than Manhunter.
    Right, it was a dues ex machina ability. They couldn't figure out a way for the justice league to win so they just beefed up Martian Manhunter. It's not something he's done before or since. Go check Despero's wiki.

    NinjaSquirrel on
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    Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    So if Despero is so powerful that he can't be defeated unless lazy writers "beef up" an exsisting character to beat him via trickery... wtf yo?

    I'm pretty sure Loki can "trick" himself to victory here, since that seems to be the only way to beat Despero and...

    He is the TRICKSTER god.

    Caveman Paws on
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    Spectre-xSpectre-x Rating: AWESOME YESRegistered User regular
    edited January 2007
    So if Despero is so powerful that he can't be defeated unless lazy writers "beef up" an exsisting character to beat him via trickery... wtf yo?

    I'm pretty sure Loki can "trick" himself to victory here, since that seems to be the only way to beat Despero and...

    He is the TRICKSTER god.

    You keep bringing up the trickster god thing like it actually means something.

    Yeah, that's

    uh

    completely irrelevant since Loki gets beaten all the time, usually just by one guy and maybe two or three friends, instead of the combined might of several super-geniuses, some of whom are also superumanly strong and durable to ridiculous points.


    EDIT: And what is Loki really going to do? Trick Despero? With what? They are on mars. There is no population to exploit, no people to set against each other. I sncerely doubt that Loki would be able to shield himself from telepathic detection completely when you consider Despero's abilities.

    Spectre-x on
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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited January 2007
    Yeah, but see, Thor is expecting to get tricked by Loki.

    It's easier to beat a prankster's prank when you know it's coming.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    NewtronNewtron Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    If Loki is going to win, its GOT to be out of magic.

    As Spectre brought up, this is mars. What does Loki know about mars, and what could he use to exploit it? Not much, I would think.

    You also can't really play a god card here because as stated enough times, he is of frost giant descent. Also, he is more of a powerful sorcerer than a god.

    I don't think Loki's trickster nature will rear its head here if it becomes apparent that he will need to survive. I mean hes gonna be blipped to some weird place, face to face with a dangerously, tough enemy, who would probably make his impressive intellect clear after some dialogue; Loki will probably be heading into the more "oh shits, better run and try to fend him off with magic" mindset.

    Of course if Loki does gain the upper hand, he'd probably try and reason/exploit Despero or mess around with him, in which case it comes down to a battle of outwitting one another, and Loki isn't un-outwittable.

    Interesting Matchup.

    Newtron on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    'm not willing to cheese out and vote Loki to spite Spectre-X or because I think Despero is too powerful.

    We left out contestants who are powerful on a cosmic level like Despero for a reason.

    Marathon on
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    Peeps ChickenPeeps Chicken Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Marathon wrote:
    'm not willing to cheese out and vote Loki to spite Spectre-X or because I think Despero is too powerful.

    We left out contestants who are powerful on a cosmic level like Despero for a reason.
    When I say he's overpowered, I mean he's boring... not that he's unbeatable.

    Despero can still be beaten, so I'm not sure I'd call him cosmic. You can punch him out, if you had somebody tough enough (Doomsday, for example, probably could), or you can shut his brain down with a telepath strong enough. He's not immune to magic, so somebody like Spiral could give him a good run for his money. I think Loki could legitimately beat him through trickery, so I don't have a problem with people voting Loki for that reason.

    But if he's too powerful, the solution was to not have him in the competition in the first place. It's not to BS your way through a vote and nullify him after the fact.

    And voting just to piss Spectre-X off is weak.

    Peeps Chicken on
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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Can't we just have the contestants drop their pants, get a measurement, and be done with it? Damn this would be so much easier.

    Fiaryn on
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    Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    Loki can definately outsmart Despero and trick him. If MM can trick him, then Loki can do it easily.

    And Spectre, the whole "you bring up trickster god like it means something" comment is the most specious reasoning you've ever brought to one of these threads, and that is really fucking saying something.

    Because, you keep bringing up Desperos mental powers like they mean something.

    See what I did there?

    Regina Fong on
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    Peeps ChickenPeeps Chicken Registered User regular
    edited January 2007
    jeepguy wrote:
    Loki can definately outsmart Despero and trick him. If MM can trick him, then Loki can do it easily.
    This I agree with.

    And Spectre, the whole "you bring up trickster god like it means something" comment is the most specious reasoning you've ever brought to one of these threads, and that is really fucking saying something.

    Because, you keep bringing up Desperos mental powers like they mean something.

    See what I did there?

    I think what he's saying is that Loki being "the god of trickery" does not mean that Loki has the market cornered on trickery in the Marvel universe, such as it might in other universes. What most people see as "gods of X" in the Marvel universe would probably be more in line with Marvel characters like Death... you can't kill Death, because she's the functional equivalent of an absolute ruler over that aspect of the universe. In the meantime, the egyptian god of Death in the marvel universe might be best by the Greek god of Death, who might be bested by the Asgardian god of Death. I'm pretty sure all of them would have to bow under the cosmic entity of Death in the MU.

    Non-god "gods" such as Thor (lightning) or Hercules (strength) or Ares (War) can be taken down at their own games.

    Peeps Chicken on
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