Based on MikeZ's notes from playing MvC3 at E3, one of the most alarming changes was how the system seemed to want to limit what the player could do, in contrast to how free MvC2 was. The biggest contributors to this seem to be the "infinite prevention" system and the inability to attack immediately out of airdash as well as the way your character pops out after recovery in the air making MvC2 style resets impractical. As such, I'd like to ask that these either be removed (replace infinite prevention with MvC2 dizzies) or at the very least eased up (less time where you can't attack after an airdash) to allow the same sort of freedom that MvC2 had. As it stands, the state of MvC3 is worrying since it does not seem to be a game that can stand the test of time and keep evolving even a decade down the line like it's predecessor.
Well, the tone and wording of the message is retarded, but (and I might get a bit of hate for this) I agree with part of it. Not being able to attack for a bit after an air dash seems silly to me and goes counter that what basically every other fighting game with an air dash does. Not only the VS series (including TvC) but also the Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, and Melty Blood games all allow you to attack right after/during an air dash so I'm not sure why this change took place.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
So to clarify, if you do an air dash and attack during the air dash, you can't attack briefly after you land or you can't do any more air attacks if still falling to the ground? Because I plenty of air dashes with attacks. Plus, most of the air dashes in MvC2 are not attacks (you simply move forward) so no attacks with air dashes wouldn't much of a change either.
Also, I love the part in that rant where the guy complains that we won't see MvC3 "evolve" like MvC2 did. Unless I'm mistaken, MvC2 stopped evolving something like 6-7 years ago once the really really best characters got all figured out. Not to mention that getting rid of reset combos is a stupidly obvious good thing and only an anti-fun moron would argue that inescapable unending combos make for a superior game.
So to clarify, if you do an air dash and attack during the air dash, you can't attack briefly after you land or you can't do any more air attacks if still falling to the ground? Because I plenty of air dashes with attacks. Plus, most of the air dashes in MvC2 are not attacks (you simply move forward) so no attacks with air dashes wouldn't much of a change either.
Also, I love the part in that rant where the guy complains that we won't see MvC3 "evolve" like MvC2 did. Unless I'm mistaken, MvC2 stopped evolving something like 6-7 years ago once the really really best characters got all figured out. Not to mention that getting rid of reset combos is a stupidly obvious good thing and only an anti-fun moron would argue that inescapable unending combos make for a superior game.
Oh I am calling hyperbole on everything they're bitching about. Even the lol airdash part.
Level 3 supers like Final Justice or Get a Life* were disabled in the E3 build, I was told.
[* = my made up name for the Deadpool super that Capcom described.]
Basics: 4 attack buttons and 2 assist buttons.
A – weak attack, equivalent to TvC’s A. Most characters can rapid-fire either standing A, crouching A, or both. Crouching A hits low, as far as I noticed.
B – medium attack, equivalent to TvC’s B, combo filler.
C – hard attack, equivalent to TvC’s C. Crouching C is a knockdown trip for most characters (for Iron Man, crouching B is a knockdown, similar to previous games).
E – Capcom called this “Exchange”, so it gets “E”. A combination of MvC2 Fierce and RH. On the ground this is your only launcher, and there is no crouching version, so it is only one attack animation always. In the air it is your only knockdown strike, which causes MvC3’s version of Flying Screen. E attacks are not special or super cancelable, and the only thing you can do from standing E is superjump.
During an air combo, you can use it as a knockdown or, if you hold Fwd or Down and press it, you will midair tag (“Exchange”, I guess it should be called :^) to the next character in DHC order. Down+E tags the next character in from the same side you’re on, and Fwd+E tags them in from the opposite side so you can combo the other way. At least that’s how it seems to work, so that each has a different use.
You can only Exchange 2x per air combo, so like DHCs you can’t go back to your original point character. If you relaunch, though, maybe you can. Exchanging seems to reset damage scaling mostly, like DHCs do, so it is usually much better than just ending your aircombo, except for the combo breaker part discussed below.
If you go for an Exchange in an air combo, and your opponent holds the same direction you used and hits E during the small pause as you tag, they will escape from your combo with a counterattack Exchange of their own, and can continue a combo from it. There is no meter requirement for this. I am not sure if it is possible to tell visually which direction was used during the pause, so it may end up guessing/knowing which direction the opponent wants to combo you. There seems to be no penalty for guessing wrong / trying to escape if the opponent doesn’t Exchange.
** It appeared that if you were fast enough, you could press F+E, D+E during the pause and always guarantee an escape, but I may be wrong.**
Assist 1 and 2 – pressing the button by itself calls the assist character. Back+button tags to that character, but Capcom already stated this is being changed/fixed to allow defensive assists. You are restricted from calling assists the same way as in MvC2 – not during blockstun/hitstun, specials, supers, or superjump. However, you can call them during Flying Screen now.
Assists come in much slower than they do in MvC2, and they will still attack even if you are hit (possibly a bug). If you call one, then enter a state like superjump where you couldn’t call after you press the button but before they decide to come out, they will not come out. Life regain on assists is incredibly much faster than MvC2. Assist characters can be hit, but cannot be comboed very well…see the Infinite Prevention section.
QCT+Assist is snapback, and functions mostly the same. Double snaps (assist+point) leave the assist on the floor in front of you and do allow you to combo them, but combos on assists don’t work very well. I could not get double snap, E E E E (launch till death) to work, the assist always either left offscreen or the E would go through them.
Mechanics: (Tag, Baroque, jump, dash, blocking, OTGs, recovery, links, air combos and y-boost, flying screen, infinite prevention)
2P refers to any 2 of A/B/C together. E does not count as an attack in this regard.
Tag – I don’t know where to put this, so…hitting with a regular tag acts like XvSF/MvC1, not MvC2; no free combo.
Baroque – when you are down to 1 character, one time only you can press Assist…this may be the wrong command, heh, I just hit every button…and do a Baroque. (Basically a Guilty Gear Roman Cancel - for those unfamiliar with the term, it automatically resets you to neutral out of any move you were doing.) It raises your damage and defense by 20% each, and is timer based, so you can do more than 1 combo with it. The timer on it lasts until you are out of red bar. You can cancel out of supers with it, so you can effectively DHC to yourself once.
Jumping – if you have both a doublejump and an airdash (like CapAm), using the double jump removes your ability to airdash, and vice versa. Manual superjump-cancels (s.A xx superjump) were not present, only the automatic superjump after an E. There are no normal launchers except s.E.
Jumping normals are not airdash cancelable, but are jump-cancellable…Felicia could do j.B xx doublejump, for example, but could not do j.B xx airdash.
Dashing – Any 2P will dash, B+2P will backdash. Airdash seems standard-issue, only Hulk couldn’t…even CapAm and Felicia could do it. Iron Man had 8way dash, Morrigan had CvS2 ground dash (float up). Characters start falling as soon as you attack from a dash, even 8way, but they keep forward momentum – think Sol Badguy, not MvC2 Magneto/Storm. Right after you start an airdash there is a short period of time where you cannot attack, again like Guilty Gear, so doing horizontal ad.A with MvC2 trijump timing will result in no attack coming out. This means that even though Iron Man can triangle jump extremely low to the ground, he can’t attack before landing, you will land and get a cr.Short instead...and Morrigan can’t instead overhead with a short dash like she could in CvS2, since she isn’t allowed to immediately attack after dashing.
8way dashing into the floor will land as soon as you touch the ground, whereas in MvC2 you would complete your dash animation before landing.
Blocking – Any 2P will pushblock…ahem, I mean Advancing Guard. Pushblock animation lasts for somewhere between MvC2 and TvC length, you can’t TvC mash it by any means. Pushblock Guard Cancel is not present.
OTGs – Only certain moves can OTG; the majority cannot. Deadpool’s air super, Hulk’s Gamma Wave and Quake (only the rocks, not his hand), and Dante’s Icicle are examples of moves that can OTG. I am guessing it is only projectiles. Using an OTG seems to speed up the Infinite Prevention effect. Upon being OTG’d you seem to go straight to air hitstun, no special OTG stun.
Instead of OTGs, many moves that would knock you down in MvC2 (Iron Man’s cr.B slide, Felicia’s roll->slide) now pop you up into the air a bit instead. Iron Man can do cr.B->E, and Felicia can do roll->slide, cr.A. As well, they added the floor bounce effect (common in other airdash games) to a lot of moves that were knockdowns in MvC2, and you are freely juggleable during a floor bounce.
Recovery – To borrow BlazBlue terminology, there are bounce-techs. Hitting A/B/C just as you land on the floor will quick-rise, with A moving a small distance and C moving a large distance. You can also use F+A/B/C to roll toward/through your opponent, somewhat like MvC2. There are knockdown attacks where you can bounce-tech, like cr.C, and attacks where you can’t, like being hit by a tag.
If you don’t bounce tech, after lying on the ground for a while you can hold Fwd/Back to roll forward/backward before getting up, like Darkstalkers or BlazBlue. The rolls are invincible, and you cannot stop your opponent from being able to do one.
After being allowed to recover from a hit in the air, your character pops up a bit. This makes MvC2-style resets mostly impractical. Also, possibly due to Infinite Prevention, you will automatically recover at odd times – if you are hit in the air by a Shinkuu Hadoken, you will pop out halfway through and can block, or in some cases punish Ryu.
Links – I only want to mention that I couldn’t find any normal-to-normal links using regular hitstun. Moves have such long recovery that it appears chains, launchers, air jumpcancels, and special hitstuns like floorbounce or knockdown are the only way to extend your combos, even in the air. Blockstun seems longer to compensate for this.
Air combos and Y-boost – There seems to be no y-boost, at all. All moves in the air seem to cause the same reaction (moving the opponent upward slightly), no matter what your character is doing, even moves that were knockdowns in previous games. CapAm’s j.D+C (MvC2 j.D+RH) does the same thing as his j.A. The only normal knockdowns are j.E’s.
Flying Screen – Doing a j.E in an aircombo (even as just 1 hit after a launch) will cause the camera to focus on the enemy, as MvC2 flying screen did. If your character goes off the left or right side of the screen (not the top), they will come dashing back in on the ground. Setting Flying Screen does not restrict your actions at all, and most j.E’s cause some floor bounce, so comboing after Flying Screen is more common. Doing jumpin->ground series->air series->(Exchange combo)->j.E, ground series xx ground super, DHC, DHC seems to be the standard combo formula.
Infinite Prevention – Rather than keeping undizzies as guaranteed escapes, MvC3 goes with the shortening-hitstun approach, like Guilty Gear/Blazblue. After the Infinite Prevention is triggered in a combo, moves cause nearly no hitstun, and the opponent can block out of your combo. This means that simple tall-character [j.A->A->B->B->C, land] will not work as an infinite, which is good. However, just like GG and BB it has the downside that the opponent tends to escape from regular non-infinite combos at strange times. If you start your combo with one extra wrong hit, the end of it will be blockable, or most supers and specials which are multiple hits won’t connect for the entire thing - allowing the opponent to punish you for getting hit by a Shinkuu Hadoken/Danke’s QCT+2P super/Chris’ grenade launcher super at the wrong time in a combo.
So, for clarification, you can't attack right after starting an air dash.
man, people always find new ways to glitch the game. I hate it when people cry about old glitches that don't stay in. I think every generation should have to find their own glitches and stop leeching off the last generation's work!
So Haggar was my favorite FF character and why I hated the console releases. It wasn't until Mame that I was able to finally pile drive fools. Zangief was based on him, they'd both have the SPD and arm whirl I'd guess. Trying to figure out how he'd play different than Zangief. Probably a little more mobile if hes the same build as in the FF games.
The art style isn't doing Hulk any favors. He especially brings out something in the TvC style that makes it look like underdeveloped 3D work instead of the stylized comic look. Especially in dark stages.
I dunno, might just be me, but something isn't quite right with the lighting yet and Hulk makes it seem obvious.
Well, I wouldn't mind allowing you to attack after mid-air dashes, since as someone who's played alot of Guilty Gear, that's kind of the point of forward mid-air dashes. Why would you midair dash towards someone if you aren't going to attack?
That being said, I also don't want the game to turn into a exploit-fest either. Usually having mid-air dash forward + attacks leads to alot of matches where you're stuck in the air in a never ending tornado of punches and kicks. Guilty Gear could get away with this by having the BURST input, since Marvel vs. Capcom 3 to my knowledge doesn't have a burst command, if they were to keep mid-air dash forward attacks in it would be a disastrous mix.
As a person who plays Guilty Gear (though mostly blazblue now) that doesn't really make any sense.
Burst function is for interrupting combos, though people also use offensive burst to gain full meter. It doesn't have alot to do with attacking during air dash.
Eh, while I get the complaints of the MvC2 players seeing that the system is pretty different from what they're used to and what they want, but i don't really see it as problematic.
It's something that blazblue and guilty gear does, as in there's some recovery to the air dash. It's different to MvC2 but it's a system that works well.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Ah. Well, I guess it depends on how much recovery there is. If he's just complaining to be complaining, eh.
Not to mention that getting rid of reset combos is a stupidly obvious good thing and only an anti-fun moron would argue that inescapable unending combos make for a superior game.
Doesn't seem so inexplicable to me that someone would want the sequel of their favourite game to play a lot more like their favourite game than it does a completely different game.
Doesn't seem so inexplicable to me that someone would want the sequel of their favourite game to play a lot more like their favourite game than it does a completely different game.
This would be a valid point if we knew that it didn't. It sure looks like it does at this point, but it's too early to know for sure. Right now it's pretty much the same sort of overreacting that happened with SFIV.
They've done a whole lot to change things besides just recovery on air dashes. And that's hardly what I was saying anyway. It clearly plays more like TvC than MvC2 in a lot of ways. If you're a huge fan of MvC2 and see an announcement for MvC3 then it's not really overreacting to be disappointed by that.
It's wishful thinking to want a sequel developed that late after the last game to be the same, yes, and since (like most every competitive game of the time) MvC2 was played in ways Capcom never expected or wanted, it was probably too much to expect them to keep the same pace and style. It's not like developers breaking from a well established norm for a competitive series often works out for the best. Tekken 4, Soul Calibur 3, Street Fighter 3, Quake 4, Counter-Strike: Source. The list is extensive enough to be a warning for anyone.
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Yeah, but you aren't really going to know that until the game comes out and it is actually played.
Most of the stuff people are complaining about now is stuff that was pretty obviously wasn't going to make it into the next game(honestly, I think most of the people complaining are just doing it to be petulant because if they actually believe what they're saying god help them.)
As for those other games, they tended to have a lot of other problems going for them outside of just being changed around(lack of play testing in a good amount of cases).
So yeah, all I'm hearing at this point is a lot of noise.
Either way, adaptation is something that will always be needed in every competitive game when a new adaptation is released. So I think a good amount of people are either going to have to man up or just go back to playing MvC2.
That isn't to say that constructive criticism isn't warranted. But there tends to be a big divide between good criticism and player entitlement issues. And that being said, at the moment I think the people who have actually played it are the only ones in the position to really give the former.
Well I suppose it's just a mentality thing. For example my favorite fighting game series is Street Fighter. This is largely due to how much they change it in every major iteration. I can play SF2, SFA, SF3, and SFIV still because they all feel different. So I get to still enjoy the older series while playing the newer one as well. I don't really get this feeling from any other fighting game series. When I'm playing Tekken 6 I see no reason to go back to 5 or 3 (Those being the only ones I've played). Now they've added stuff here and there but they just don't feel different enough to warrant it. Of course it's not always the newest game that ends up being my choice.
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The_SpaniardIt's never lupinesIrvine, CaliforniaRegistered Userregular
edited June 2010
Played it at E3, loved it, day 1. Can't really speak on the controls though cause I was using their fightsticks and I wasn't used to playing that way.
A reasonable concern for competitive fighting game players is that the rules of the game are so restrictive that they prevent the vast amount of edge cases and side-effects that they are used to that make the game fascinating.
Cross-ups are a result of how blocking in most 2D fighters works.
Option selected safe jumps/meaty attacks are a result of the fundamental ways in which moves are regulated by startup/active/recovery frames.
The list goes on.
Empowering players to create unique cases as a result of the interactions of various game rules is at the heart of competitive fighting games, for better or for worse. If you made Virtua Fighter in such a way that the outrageous diversity of option selects were eliminated, I'm sure that all the competitive players of it would claim that you have severely hurt the game, while casual players are unlikely to ever notice.
The wonder of Starcraft microing is a similar thing: many competitive players have said that SC2 simply isn't as fun because it feels like the game forces you to play within its particular playpens of rules, rather than being loose enough to allow the players to create unique results. MvC2 players are used to having incredible freedom in the game, so anything that impinges upon that freedom is taken very negatively. Maybe that's why MvC2 is so beloved in America
There's nothing wrong with people wanting a sequel to a hit game to play like the original. But if that original turned into an abomination with "tactics" and methods that weren't intended by the developers, then it's up to their discretion to change them.
You can't look me straight in the face and tell me that the bullshit Magneto, Storm and Cable can pull off in MvC2 was what the developers intended.
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Fighting games will always be about walking a fine line between offering players the freedom to be creative without going overboard. That hasn't change and it never will.
Like someone said before, MvC2 was a fun ride but I would like to see what they can do with MvC3 myself.
Ironically that freedom restricts you to 3 characters.
More like 7 or 8 at least.
On one had 7 or 8 out of 56 isn't exactly a good ratio. On the other hand it took a long time to get to that. Give a game long enough and the characters used competitively will be whittled down.
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Mike Z's in the corner. I'm somewhere in the very, very happy online community. I'm putting a quarter down. I get to be the sun.
Also, I don't read comics. I've only read one comic, and that's Civil War, and it was fucking awesome. But I just researched who Joe Quesada was.
And now I know why I don't read comics.
Well, the tone and wording of the message is retarded, but (and I might get a bit of hate for this) I agree with part of it. Not being able to attack for a bit after an air dash seems silly to me and goes counter that what basically every other fighting game with an air dash does. Not only the VS series (including TvC) but also the Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, and Melty Blood games all allow you to attack right after/during an air dash so I'm not sure why this change took place.
Also, I love the part in that rant where the guy complains that we won't see MvC3 "evolve" like MvC2 did. Unless I'm mistaken, MvC2 stopped evolving something like 6-7 years ago once the really really best characters got all figured out. Not to mention that getting rid of reset combos is a stupidly obvious good thing and only an anti-fun moron would argue that inescapable unending combos make for a superior game.
Oh I am calling hyperbole on everything they're bitching about. Even the lol airdash part.
So, for clarification, you can't attack right after starting an air dash.
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When SFIV was being made they got a lot of complaints from people who basically wanted SF3 again. Capcom's used to this.
I dunno, might just be me, but something isn't quite right with the lighting yet and Hulk makes it seem obvious.
I'm not of the mindset of "Lol, so broken it's not broken".
That shit is stupid.
That being said, I also don't want the game to turn into a exploit-fest either. Usually having mid-air dash forward + attacks leads to alot of matches where you're stuck in the air in a never ending tornado of punches and kicks. Guilty Gear could get away with this by having the BURST input, since Marvel vs. Capcom 3 to my knowledge doesn't have a burst command, if they were to keep mid-air dash forward attacks in it would be a disastrous mix.
Burst function is for interrupting combos, though people also use offensive burst to gain full meter. It doesn't have alot to do with attacking during air dash.
You just can't interrupt your air-dash with an attack.
In GG and BlazBlue, it's not uncommon for players to move forward exclusively with air dashing.
This means footsies just got a little more important in an MvC game of all things.
This pleases me.
It's something that blazblue and guilty gear does, as in there's some recovery to the air dash. It's different to MvC2 but it's a system that works well.
It means players can no longer move forward by exclusively airdashing. Which I see a lot. It must improve the ground game.
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But being shocked at fighting game fans overreacting is like being shocked that the sun comes up in the morning.
This would be a valid point if we knew that it didn't. It sure looks like it does at this point, but it's too early to know for sure. Right now it's pretty much the same sort of overreacting that happened with SFIV.
It's wishful thinking to want a sequel developed that late after the last game to be the same, yes, and since (like most every competitive game of the time) MvC2 was played in ways Capcom never expected or wanted, it was probably too much to expect them to keep the same pace and style. It's not like developers breaking from a well established norm for a competitive series often works out for the best. Tekken 4, Soul Calibur 3, Street Fighter 3, Quake 4, Counter-Strike: Source. The list is extensive enough to be a warning for anyone.
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Most of the stuff people are complaining about now is stuff that was pretty obviously wasn't going to make it into the next game(honestly, I think most of the people complaining are just doing it to be petulant because if they actually believe what they're saying god help them.)
As for those other games, they tended to have a lot of other problems going for them outside of just being changed around(lack of play testing in a good amount of cases).
So yeah, all I'm hearing at this point is a lot of noise.
Either way, adaptation is something that will always be needed in every competitive game when a new adaptation is released. So I think a good amount of people are either going to have to man up or just go back to playing MvC2.
That isn't to say that constructive criticism isn't warranted. But there tends to be a big divide between good criticism and player entitlement issues. And that being said, at the moment I think the people who have actually played it are the only ones in the position to really give the former.
Cross-ups are a result of how blocking in most 2D fighters works.
Option selected safe jumps/meaty attacks are a result of the fundamental ways in which moves are regulated by startup/active/recovery frames.
The list goes on.
Empowering players to create unique cases as a result of the interactions of various game rules is at the heart of competitive fighting games, for better or for worse. If you made Virtua Fighter in such a way that the outrageous diversity of option selects were eliminated, I'm sure that all the competitive players of it would claim that you have severely hurt the game, while casual players are unlikely to ever notice.
The wonder of Starcraft microing is a similar thing: many competitive players have said that SC2 simply isn't as fun because it feels like the game forces you to play within its particular playpens of rules, rather than being loose enough to allow the players to create unique results. MvC2 players are used to having incredible freedom in the game, so anything that impinges upon that freedom is taken very negatively. Maybe that's why MvC2 is so beloved in America
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More like 7 or 8 at least.
You can't look me straight in the face and tell me that the bullshit Magneto, Storm and Cable can pull off in MvC2 was what the developers intended.
Like someone said before, MvC2 was a fun ride but I would like to see what they can do with MvC3 myself.
On one had 7 or 8 out of 56 isn't exactly a good ratio. On the other hand it took a long time to get to that. Give a game long enough and the characters used competitively will be whittled down.