This is why I like SF4 - while there are characters that are certainly used more than others, everyone has at least a fighting chance. It is in my opinion one of the most balanced fighting games I've ever played.
All competition level teams have some representation of Sent/Storm/Mag/Cable.
Other characters that appear:
CapCom, Psylocke, Strider, Doom, Spiral
So that's 9 already.
It isn't necessarily the case that a game's system is busted as it is that some characters in the game take advantage of what systems there are better than others. But even that isn't always the case: Cable lacks all of the unique movement options and speed that empower the other members of the big 4, but his ability to control space is so great that it overcomes all that.
Complaints about the systems in being given the counterpoint that "MvC2 only has 4 characters" isn't a good argument. Many of the long-time players are concerned about the system because it will have overarching effects on all the characters, no matter which ones turn out to be good. Many that that say that players are wrong in wanting systems that offer greater freedom actually just want more good characters. Wanting there to be 20 other characters that can compete with Sent/Storm/Mag/Cable isn't the same as wanting the game to be more restrictive.
I don't think you can really argue that Marvel vs. Capcom 2's system isn't busted. It's busted to hell, but the game manages to be fun anyway. And I don't have a problem with that. I also don't have a problem with them wanting to try and change some of that stuff for MvC3.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Yeah. Honestly, I don't think many people want less freedom so much as they want more viable characters.
However, thing about that is to achieve that you have to make it so what the most viable characters do don't dominate the game as much. Either by making what the other people do better than it is, or bringing what the really good characters do more in line with others. And that happened to be the main problem with MvC2.
Do I think you will get a fighting game where every character is on the same level, no. Do I believe you can have a game where most characters are at least moderately viable, absolutely.
I will give credit to the fact that it takes remarkable skill and timing to perform some of the more absurd combos and infinites in MvC2. Players that can perform at that level see the game in a completely different manner than the rest of us and know the game well enough to take full advantage of the system.
Having said that, I'm of the opinion that any game that allows you to completely take out an opponent after landing a single hit and continuing a combo is broken.
I've been watching the stream for some time. Blackheart, Cyclops, Megaman and Dr. Doom have all been used once.
The constants have been Sentinel, Magneto, Storm, Cable, Psylocke and Captain Commando, with the last two being used solely for assists, never fighting unless they happen to be the last man standing.
So far the highlight for me was when the girl was playing, though she lost pretty hard due to some Magneto infintes.
Not so much. The thing with CapCom, Cyclops, and Psylocke is their AAAs are invulnerable up through the first active frames (Commando's might be slightly vulnerable, but I'm fairly sure the other two aren't). Blackheart's columns can do decent, but not excellent, space control, and he's a really big target who can be kicked out of his assist before he can throw the Inferno.
You have to realize that MvC3 isn't being marketed to the relatively small group that still plays MvC2 10 years later. The game is being aimed squarely at the people who played the game for a few months, not years.
Any suggestions that the current MvC2 community makes will largely fall on deaf ears over at Capcom. If the game is good enough, it slowly replace MvC2 in the competitive circles regardless of how different it is. Case in point: Street Fighter III. Yes, 3S still gets some tournament play, but its largely been phased out by SSFIV at this point. The 3S community had concerns about SFIV as well, and while I'm sure there are those that still prefer 3S, there's no denying that SSFIV has taken the competitive spotlight anyway.
A new Marvel is coming. Resisting the change and demanding that MvC3 needs to be more like MvC2 for it to be successful is only going to serve to weaken the community around it.
Man the fanbox just exploded when the chick won the loser's bracket.
The announcers did explain why Cyclops is used and yeah, it's because of his assist. I'm assuming Psylocke is relatively the same because I've yet to see them used for actual fighting.
Man the fanbox just exploded when the chick won the loser's bracket.
The announcers did explain why Cyclops is used and yeah, it's because of his assist. I'm assuming Psylocke is relatively the same because I've yet to see them used for actual fighting.
I think it's pretty much just the big 4 for point characters. The other liked characters are generally assists.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited June 2010
Love using Cyclops as a frontman. People just don't expect to see him used that way, he builds super like crazy, and his supers give him great reach. It give me great joy to encounter players who exist to play only with the top characters and then wreck them with a much inferior team.
If anything, the broken crap in MvC2 keeps it from being more popular. If MvC3 manages to decently balance even 75% of the new cast and keep out any stupidly overpowered ones, we'll likely see more people playing. Losing the game in 20 seconds flat because somebody knows how to start unavoidably hurting your guys less than a second after the previous guy dies doesn't really make people happy. Besides, I doubt Capcom cares about the whining of maybe a few thousand people when they could be selling a game to hundreds of thousands of people.
In the end I just hope that the game isn't boring, which is about as vague and ambiguous a way I have of saying that I hope that the game is interesting.
HnK is probably the most ridiculously good time you can possibly have with a game that is so broken that the brokenness dial is stuck on WTFAWESOME and has so few characters that they made the character select thing a dial that shows up twice in Vs. mode so that it looks like there are more characters. Its idea of "balanced" is that everybody can potentially die in the opening few seconds of a round, everybody has viable 100% percent combos, and dribbling the opponent like a basketball (or soccer ball! they have that, too!) is par for the course. I don't actually hope for games to turn out this way in general, though I do enjoy being surprised.
I still love that chart that gets shown in the intro for MvC2 that shows a listing of all these game subsystems. For some people, it made them go, "wow, neat!" while for other people they just looked at it and wondered wth it was supposed to be.
Psylocke is used almost exclusively for her assist ability and she shows up in top-level teams all the time. None of them consider her "unviable" just because she doesn't have as much versatility on point.
Psylocke is used almost exclusively for her assist ability and she shows up in top-level teams all the time. None of them consider her "unviable" just because she doesn't have as much versatility on point.
That's their take on it, and I'm fine with that because it works for them. Several characters are considered viable on high end teams because of their assist.
But from my own personal point of view I don't consider a character (let's say Captain Commando) whose spot on a team is contingent solely on their assist ability, ignoring their supreme handicap on point versus the big 3, to be "viable" in the same sense that Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, Cable, Spiral and others are.
Psylocke is used almost exclusively for her assist ability and she shows up in top-level teams all the time. None of them consider her "unviable" just because she doesn't have as much versatility on point.
That's their take on it, and I'm fine with that because it works for them. Several characters are considered viable on high end teams because of their assist.
But from my own personal point of view I don't consider a character whose spot on a team is contingent solely on their assist ability, ignoring their supreme handicap on point versus the big 3, to be "viable" in the same sense that Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, Cable, Spiral and others are.
Again, my opinion.
Sometimes I wonder about that, though.
Like in Project Justice, Chairperson is one of the crappiest characters in the game when she has to fight, but her team super is wtfawesome.
That said, I don't think Captain Commando was intended to suck when fighting, it just turned out that way.
Still, I wouldn't count that as a knock against the game: don't you think it's interesting to have a character with such a unique strength? The game is a team game, after all, and it's remarkable how well it reinforces the notion of team synergy. Commando is like a support character who has a powerful ability, but that you have to keep out of trouble. Sentinel supported by Commando is a different beast that one that doesn't have him.
Well, then I think I would call him a viable assist but not a viable character. A team of Sentinel/CapCom/Tron Bonne can seriously wreck some shit, but a team of CapCom/Cammy/Psylocke (previously mentioned as viable characters) is at a serious disadvantage.
Went to a SpinCity with my old lady today. I was really, really tempted to play with the MvC1 booth they had there, but it's loud as shit in what's a relatively quiet atmosphere, and I shy easily:?...
Here's a nice MvC3 basics demo video by Keits. For those of you who don't know, Keits was one of the early champions of TvC and plays it competitively in addition to making sweet primer videos like the one you can find in my TvC thread. Click here to check out my thread, the video in question is in the second post.
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing. The game is awesome and if you have a Wii you should definitely check it out.
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing. The game is awesome and if you have a Wii you should definitely check it out and join in on the TvC ranbat we are trying to create.
I would play TvC(I actually own it and have it right now).
But the GCN dpad is just horrible and I have no decent alternatives
How have you gone this long without some form of Classic Controller?
If you really hate the Classic Controller, but don't mind using a PS2 controller or even an N64 controller, the next best solution would be to pick up a Classic Linker N64 which I talk about in this post.
i am getting the sense that MvC3 will be to MvC2 as SFIV is to SFAlpha - much easier to play, much more appealing to newcomers, and probably containing some silly new shit that is unnecessary and possibly actively bad for the game, but only in a minor way.
I would play TvC(I actually own it and have it right now).
But the GCN dpad is just horrible and I have no decent alternatives
I'm not saying that you *need* to run out and buy one, but the Classic Controller Pro is only $20 and is easily the best way to play the game if you don't have a stick (I'm still using the standard CC myself, but I've tried the Pro and it is clearly superior).
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing. The game is awesome and if you have a Wii you should definitely check it out and join in on the TvC ranbat we are trying to create.
I would play TvC(I actually own it and have it right now).
But the GCN dpad is just horrible and I have no decent alternatives
I'm not saying that you *need* to run out and buy one, but the Classic Controller Pro is only $20 and is easily the best way to play the game if you don't have a stick (I'm still using the standard CC myself, but I've tried the Pro and it is clearly superior).
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing. The game is awesome and if you have a Wii you should definitely check it out and join in on the TvC ranbat we are trying to create.
Fixed, if you don't mind. :P
Well, I try to keep some of my agendas hidden. :P
Yeah, well...
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing.
As a person who plays Guilty Gear (though mostly blazblue now) that doesn't really make any sense.
Burst function is for interrupting combos, though people also use offensive burst to gain full meter. It doesn't have alot to do with attacking during air dash.
Yeah, I was referring to the Burst function being used defensively to stop combos and specifically could be used to prevent any setup for infinite abuse via the opponent doing air dash attack shenanigans. I think I might have worded it weird.
There's nothing wrong with people wanting a sequel to a hit game to play like the original. But if that original turned into an abomination with "tactics" and methods that weren't intended by the developers, then it's up to their discretion to change them.
You can't look me straight in the face and tell me that the bullshit Magneto, Storm and Cable can pull off in MvC2 was what the developers intended.
This is very reminiscent of when WaveDashing was confirmed to be taken out of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Alot of people began complaining and going insane. They forgot that WaveDashing was never a intended feature in Melee.
There's nothing wrong with people wanting a sequel to a hit game to play like the original. But if that original turned into an abomination with "tactics" and methods that weren't intended by the developers, then it's up to their discretion to change them.
You can't look me straight in the face and tell me that the bullshit Magneto, Storm and Cable can pull off in MvC2 was what the developers intended.
This is very reminiscent of when WaveDashing was confirmed to be taken out of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Alot of people began complaining and going insane. They forgot that WaveDashing was never a intended feature in Melee.
Did you know that combos in the original Street Fighter II: World Warrior were a glitch and not an intended feature? Apparently Capcom discovered fairly late into testing that you could cancel normal moves into special moves but figured that no one would be able to master these "two-in-ones" and that leaving them in wouldn't really matter. Yeah....
There's nothing wrong with people wanting a sequel to a hit game to play like the original. But if that original turned into an abomination with "tactics" and methods that weren't intended by the developers, then it's up to their discretion to change them.
You can't look me straight in the face and tell me that the bullshit Magneto, Storm and Cable can pull off in MvC2 was what the developers intended.
This is very reminiscent of when WaveDashing was confirmed to be taken out of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Alot of people began complaining and going insane. They forgot that WaveDashing was never a intended feature in Melee.
Did you know that combos in the original Street Fighter II: World Warrior were a glitch and not an intended feature? Apparently Capcom discovered fairly late into testing that you could cancel normal moves into special moves but figured that no one would be able to master these "two-in-ones" and that leaving them in wouldn't really matter. Yeah....
Are you seriously comparing the birth of basic 2 in 1 combos in the Street Fighter franchise to infinites in MvC2? Ballsy.
cancel combos, yeah. link combos i'm sure were also accidental consequences of the frame properties for various moves, to begin with. crossups also seem like they were totally unintentional. maybe juggles as well.
Everytime I see Deadpool in a video game I want to read his comics. I've never really read comics, love the characters, movies, cartoons etc... but that moon walk and his tag in is awesome!
Posts
Other characters that appear:
CapCom, Psylocke, Strider, Doom, Spiral
So that's 9 already.
It isn't necessarily the case that a game's system is busted as it is that some characters in the game take advantage of what systems there are better than others. But even that isn't always the case: Cable lacks all of the unique movement options and speed that empower the other members of the big 4, but his ability to control space is so great that it overcomes all that.
Complaints about the systems in being given the counterpoint that "MvC2 only has 4 characters" isn't a good argument. Many of the long-time players are concerned about the system because it will have overarching effects on all the characters, no matter which ones turn out to be good. Many that that say that players are wrong in wanting systems that offer greater freedom actually just want more good characters. Wanting there to be 20 other characters that can compete with Sent/Storm/Mag/Cable isn't the same as wanting the game to be more restrictive.
Fuck Marvel vs Capcom 2.
However, thing about that is to achieve that you have to make it so what the most viable characters do don't dominate the game as much. Either by making what the other people do better than it is, or bringing what the really good characters do more in line with others. And that happened to be the main problem with MvC2.
Do I think you will get a fighting game where every character is on the same level, no. Do I believe you can have a game where most characters are at least moderately viable, absolutely.
So, like I said, we'll see.
Having said that, I'm of the opinion that any game that allows you to completely take out an opponent after landing a single hit and continuing a combo is broken.
I would say the only move that can realistically do that is Magneto little assist juggle.
What about Blackheart? Is he still used?
The constants have been Sentinel, Magneto, Storm, Cable, Psylocke and Captain Commando, with the last two being used solely for assists, never fighting unless they happen to be the last man standing.
So far the highlight for me was when the girl was playing, though she lost pretty hard due to some Magneto infintes.
Any suggestions that the current MvC2 community makes will largely fall on deaf ears over at Capcom. If the game is good enough, it slowly replace MvC2 in the competitive circles regardless of how different it is. Case in point: Street Fighter III. Yes, 3S still gets some tournament play, but its largely been phased out by SSFIV at this point. The 3S community had concerns about SFIV as well, and while I'm sure there are those that still prefer 3S, there's no denying that SSFIV has taken the competitive spotlight anyway.
A new Marvel is coming. Resisting the change and demanding that MvC3 needs to be more like MvC2 for it to be successful is only going to serve to weaken the community around it.
The announcers did explain why Cyclops is used and yeah, it's because of his assist. I'm assuming Psylocke is relatively the same because I've yet to see them used for actual fighting.
I think it's pretty much just the big 4 for point characters. The other liked characters are generally assists.
If anything, the broken crap in MvC2 keeps it from being more popular. If MvC3 manages to decently balance even 75% of the new cast and keep out any stupidly overpowered ones, we'll likely see more people playing. Losing the game in 20 seconds flat because somebody knows how to start unavoidably hurting your guys less than a second after the previous guy dies doesn't really make people happy. Besides, I doubt Capcom cares about the whining of maybe a few thousand people when they could be selling a game to hundreds of thousands of people.
HnK is probably the most ridiculously good time you can possibly have with a game that is so broken that the brokenness dial is stuck on WTFAWESOME and has so few characters that they made the character select thing a dial that shows up twice in Vs. mode so that it looks like there are more characters. Its idea of "balanced" is that everybody can potentially die in the opening few seconds of a round, everybody has viable 100% percent combos, and dribbling the opponent like a basketball (or soccer ball! they have that, too!) is par for the course. I don't actually hope for games to turn out this way in general, though I do enjoy being surprised.
I still love that chart that gets shown in the intro for MvC2 that shows a listing of all these game subsystems. For some people, it made them go, "wow, neat!" while for other people they just looked at it and wondered wth it was supposed to be.
There are the big 4: Sentinel, Storm, Magneto and Cable
The other viable fighters are: Strider, Ironman, Spiral, War machine
And then there are the characters that are elusively viable due to their assists: Psylocke, Captain Commando, Cyclops, Dr. Doom, Tron Bonne and Cammy.
Just for reference.
I'd say there are roughly 9 "viable" characters but the disparity between the top and bottom of even those characters is fairly large.
Cyclops can actually fight though, which is more than Commando can say. Tron and Doom can actually fight, too.
Blackheart is not bad at all, and if it weren't for the big 4 he'd definitely be one of the contenders.
For a long time there were proponents of Rogue, Dhalsim, and Anakaris, but they never really panned out.
That said, VDO can somehow make a team of Rogue, Ken and Colossus work. It's pretty amazing to watch.
That's their take on it, and I'm fine with that because it works for them. Several characters are considered viable on high end teams because of their assist.
But from my own personal point of view I don't consider a character (let's say Captain Commando) whose spot on a team is contingent solely on their assist ability, ignoring their supreme handicap on point versus the big 3, to be "viable" in the same sense that Sentinel, Storm, Magneto, Cable, Spiral and others are.
Again, my opinion.
Sometimes I wonder about that, though.
Like in Project Justice, Chairperson is one of the crappiest characters in the game when she has to fight, but her team super is wtfawesome.
That said, I don't think Captain Commando was intended to suck when fighting, it just turned out that way.
Still, I wouldn't count that as a knock against the game: don't you think it's interesting to have a character with such a unique strength? The game is a team game, after all, and it's remarkable how well it reinforces the notion of team synergy. Commando is like a support character who has a powerful ability, but that you have to keep out of trouble. Sentinel supported by Commando is a different beast that one that doesn't have him.
TWITTER TWATS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfeMt_n4rjg
Yes, this was also a thinly veiled attempt to get people interested in TvC as a means to prepare for MvC3. I regret nothing. The game is awesome and if you have a Wii you should definitely check it out.
But the GCN dpad is just horrible and I have no decent alternatives
How have you gone this long without some form of Classic Controller?
If you really hate the Classic Controller, but don't mind using a PS2 controller or even an N64 controller, the next best solution would be to pick up a Classic Linker N64 which I talk about in this post.
I WILL NOT BE DOING 3DS FOR NWC THREAD. SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE TO TAKE OVER.
Spoiler contains Friend Codes. Won't you be my friend?
More Friend Codes!
Mario Kart Wii: 3136-6982-0286 Tetris Party: 2364 1569 4310
Guitar Hero: Metallica: 1032 7229 7191
TATSUNOKO VS CAPCOM: 1935-2070-9123
Nintendo DS:
Worms: Open Warfare 2: 1418-7870-1606 Space Bust-a-Move: 017398 403043
Scribblenauts: 1290-7509-5558
I'm not saying that you *need* to run out and buy one, but the Classic Controller Pro is only $20 and is easily the best way to play the game if you don't have a stick (I'm still using the standard CC myself, but I've tried the Pro and it is clearly superior).
Well, I try to keep some of my agendas hidden. :P
Yeah, well...
...if it's worth doing, it's worth OVER-doing!
I WILL NOT BE DOING 3DS FOR NWC THREAD. SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE TO TAKE OVER.
Spoiler contains Friend Codes. Won't you be my friend?
More Friend Codes!
Mario Kart Wii: 3136-6982-0286 Tetris Party: 2364 1569 4310
Guitar Hero: Metallica: 1032 7229 7191
TATSUNOKO VS CAPCOM: 1935-2070-9123
Nintendo DS:
Worms: Open Warfare 2: 1418-7870-1606 Space Bust-a-Move: 017398 403043
Scribblenauts: 1290-7509-5558
Yeah, I was referring to the Burst function being used defensively to stop combos and specifically could be used to prevent any setup for infinite abuse via the opponent doing air dash attack shenanigans. I think I might have worded it weird.
Okay, this makes more sense.
This is very reminiscent of when WaveDashing was confirmed to be taken out of Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Alot of people began complaining and going insane. They forgot that WaveDashing was never a intended feature in Melee.
Did you know that combos in the original Street Fighter II: World Warrior were a glitch and not an intended feature? Apparently Capcom discovered fairly late into testing that you could cancel normal moves into special moves but figured that no one would be able to master these "two-in-ones" and that leaving them in wouldn't really matter. Yeah....
Hurray for small wonders.
Are you seriously comparing the birth of basic 2 in 1 combos in the Street Fighter franchise to infinites in MvC2? Ballsy.
cancel combos, yeah. link combos i'm sure were also accidental consequences of the frame properties for various moves, to begin with. crossups also seem like they were totally unintentional. maybe juggles as well.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/djwheat#utm_campaigne=synclickback&source=http://www.eventhubs.com/&medium=369751
EDIT: Low Tier League Rules for those who are interested:
Banned characters
Magneto
Storm
Cable
Sentinel
War Machine
Iron Man
Black Heart
Spiral
Doom
Strider
Cyclops
Banned Assists
Tron (Projectile)
Winning team was Megaman/Sakura/Psylocke over an Anakaris/SonSon/Sakura(Dhalsim/Iceman/Jin/Juggernaut) (he switched characters quite a bit) team.
EDIT: Now moving on to Normal MvC2 finals. Sent/Storm/CapCom v Mags/Storm/Psylocke(Cyclops)
Good stuff, overall.