To be fair, the Menoth board is not as bad as some of the others. There's a couple jerks, but there's also some decent stuff there. Their tacticas are generally useful.
You went on the PP forums. This is where you went wrong.
It's definitely not the worst forum I've ever seen by a long shot, and each community has a different atmosphere. Khador, for example, tends to be comparatively quiet when it comes to the doom cycle of things. There are some harsh critics and cynical pragmatists, but otherwise it's not awful.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
You went on the PP forums. This is where you went wrong.
It's definitely not the worst forum I've ever seen by a long shot, and each community has a different atmosphere. Khador, for example, tends to be comparatively quiet when it comes to the doom cycle of things. There are some harsh critics and cynical pragmatists, but otherwise it's not awful.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
Molik Karn is scary good, and is HUGE on Vassal. Idk about in real life, as no one I know plays Skorne. But Mutton and Co. (Pantheon mostly) seem to love him, and several others I've seen use him a ton.
I don't think hes broken by any means but damn hes scary.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
He is, and he is. He's a better value than the Avatar, for the same point cost. The people who don't run him are doing so for one of three reasons:
1: They aren't aware of him being so good.
2: Their meta has evolved to the point where 50+% of lists are set up against Molik cheese.
3: They're not using him for the reason that he's over used.
He's not unbeatable, but he is 15 points of warbeast in an 11pt shell.
You went on the PP forums. This is where you went wrong.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
Oh man, I love the Skorne forum - makes me laugh so hard. So much GLOOOOOOM. best forum on the planet. You guys are just too happy.
I get that MK is really, really good. His threat range is especially frightening given the attack angles you can pull out of your ass if you maximize the power of side step. He's awesome, no question.
What I don't completely understand is this effort by some of the Skorne subforumites to get MK nerfed. On the one hand I almost want to be happy about the attempt to pursue a more well balanced game. On the other hand, no other subforums seem to be as brazenly self destructive when it comes to pursuing nerfs to their own shit. They are just going to complain incessantly when MK is over-nerfed, yet never notice the pattern.
Since the release of the first fieldtest rules (In which Skorne was a hot mess) that forum has been raging from extreme to extreme, rarely ever considering moderation. Christ, during the fieldtest MK went from hilariously over the top killing machine to eyeroll worthy waste of eleven points, then back again, and so on and so forth. Lots of people would speak up occasionally, tossing in their two cents but then being shouted down by idiots. Generally speaking those folks, myself included, just reasoned that the nerf buff cycle would probably result in a fair number of models that would be ahead of the power curve.
MK is one of those models, and I for one am nothing but happy about that.
Whoa. Saw Amon and synergy at work today for the first time. Well for the first time employed properly. DAMN. lol. Dervish spam IS a viable list. Even without choir haha.
His tier is strange, without choir.
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OtakuD00DCan I hit the exploding rocks?San DiegoRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I saw it work amazingly in Kingdom Con. It was a... 75 point game or so. Crapload of Dervishes, a heavy or two ( I don't remember!), and Blessing of Vengeance. You have the Dervishes start a conga line of death. Blessing of Vengeance charges in packing an attack well into the twenties.
You went on the PP forums. This is where you went wrong.
It's definitely not the worst forum I've ever seen by a long shot, and each community has a different atmosphere. Khador, for example, tends to be comparatively quiet when it comes to the doom cycle of things. There are some harsh critics and cynical pragmatists, but otherwise it's not awful.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
Well, Molik Karn can move 24" in a single activation with eMakada and is a weapon master, so yeah....
DragonPup on
"I was there, I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor." -Cpt Garviel Loken
Well, Molik Karn can move 24" in a single activation with eMakada and is a weapon master, so yeah....
24"? With Leash, Road to War, Rush, two Side Steps and a charge I'm still only seeing 20" of movement in one activation for MK. Still outrageously far though, regardless.
That'd do it. Going 26" across the table is pretty freaky considering he also has reach...all doable on one turn. Of course he'll be outside eMakeda's control area by that point in most circumstances, but still, mean stuff.
I just can't help but put him beside a Bronzeback though. The titan king may not have anywhere near the same threat range, but god in heaven he dishes it out. I actually saw a game on Vassal a few weeks back where a BB charged into melee range with two Khadoran heavies, one being the Behemoth. Wrecked em both with fairly average rolls.
That'd do it. Going 26" across the table is pretty freaky considering he also has reach...all doable on one turn. Of course he'll be outside eMakeda's control area by that point in most circumstances, but still, mean stuff.
I just can't help but put him beside a Bronzeback though. The titan king may not have anywhere near the same threat range, but god in heaven he dishes it out. I actually saw a game on Vassal a few weeks back where a BB charged into melee range with two Khadoran heavies, one being the Behemoth. Wrecked em both with fairly average rolls.
Talk about a return on investment.
Bronzeback is great if you take another titan, especially a Cannoneer. Got a 5f caster like Morg? You can have 0-5 fury on the Titan and 4 on the Cannoneer, and the Cannoneer can't fail his threshold(has to be within 6" of him, but still). Then you can activate your caster, use whatever you want, and know that you won't have to cut next turn.
New developments in Forces of Menoth:
eFeora has a SP10 flamethrower! This isn't new, but I didn't know about it so I'm marking it new.
e/pFeora's Tier now allow Choirs of Menoth.
pReclaimer gets -1pt cost on Castigators as a tier 1 bonus. His tier 2 requires 3 Reclaimer solos, and they all get 1 soul token. Tier 4 only requires that you have 2 heavy jacks. I think it's a pretty killer tier list.
pKreoss makes Vengers FA2. Two units of 5 Vengers plus Gravus is about $180. Lawl.
Amon's list is pretty much worthless. Its best benefit is at tier 4, and gives you 1focus to each warjack on the first turn. That's the best benefit. After 18pts of non-warjack, non-support units.
Vindictus gives his army Pathfinder on the first turn, including jacks. He also gives his jacks AD. At the cost of 3+ heavies with spd5+, and two Errant units(and you get a free UA).
Cinerators are still shit.
Nothing new for Flameguard.
I actually saw Amon's tier list just absolutely bend another Menoth list over and do horrible horrible things. 3 lights killed Avatar in a single turn.
Yeah, I was going to say, Amon giving all his light 'jacks a focus point from the tier list means that he can get Synergy & Flagellation (the upkeeps) up first turn, be able to also cast Mobility, and then have his light 'jacks then run for 12".
PMAvers on
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So, would anyone mind putting up ekreoss's tier? Out of PoM I only play eKreoss and eFeora and I already have her tier list.
And my PoM book won't be coming in the mail for a wee bit longer.
non character jacks, FoS; Deliverers, Exemplars, Flameguard, Rhoven; Exemplar Solos, Mechaniks
t1: above models: FA2 on Vengers
t2: 2+ Knights Exemplar: KE get advance move
t3: 4+ exemplar units: free errant or exemplar solo, ignore FA
t4: Includes FoS: +2" Deployment Zone
So, you need 10-15pts of Exemplars, 6-22pts of one or two units of Errants, Bastions, Cinerators, or Vengers, and the 9pt FoS. 30-6pts minimum. Lack of Choirs and Reclaimers and Vassals makes me a saaaaad panda.
I have to say, they really didn't show the Flameguard any love. No solos, no UAs, and DotF are still the worst of the Kayazay/Bloodgorgers/Stormblade infantry line.
Zoktavir gains one rage token each time an enemy model is destroyed in his control area. After all friendly models have completed their activations, no more tokens can be gained and Zoktavir can give up to three rage tokens to any friendly nonwarcaster Faction model in his control area. Then remove any rage tokens remaining on Zoktavir. A model can spend one rage token once to make a full advance followed by one normal melee attack. Rage tokens can also be spent to make normal melee attacks or to boost melee attack or melee damage rolls at one token per attack or boost. Remove unspent rage tokens from play
at the end of the turn.
I was reading this and under the impression that eButcher could only give out three rage tokens, total, because of the language "can give up to three rage tokens to any friendly non-warcaster Faction model in his control area". Does this work for multiple dudes, like, you can give them each 3? Cause I figured that's what the caveat about discarding unspent rage tokens referred to.
Edit: Also, if something gets free struck by a Kodiak, does it get one attack, or two? It has two fists.
Ein on
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I was reading this and under the impression that eButcher could only give out three rage tokens, total, because of the language "can give up to three rage tokens to any friendly non-warcaster Faction model in his control area". Does this work for multiple dudes, like, you can give them each 3? Cause I figured that's what the caveat about discarding unspent rage tokens referred to.
Edit: Also, if something gets free struck by a Kodiak, does it get one attack, or two? It has two fists.
You can give three rage tokens per model. The caveat means that models with extra rage tokens (because they killed everything in their melee range) at the end of the turn can't bank them for the next turn.
A free strike is a free strike. In fact, the only time having multiple melee weapons means anything is when making your (very specifically named and referred to) initial attacks.
P.S. - War Dog has earned a place in my heart after completely stalling an enemy assassination attempt by refusing to die and rolling 3 6's on his Tough roll in a row.
Ein on
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tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
So, would anyone mind putting up ekreoss's tier? Out of PoM I only play eKreoss and eFeora and I already have her tier list.
And my PoM book won't be coming in the mail for a wee bit longer.
non character jacks, FoS; Deliverers, Exemplars, Flameguard, Rhoven; Exemplar Solos, Mechaniks
t1: above models: FA2 on Vengers
t2: 2+ Knights Exemplar: KE get advance move
t3: 4+ exemplar units: free errant or exemplar solo, ignore FA
t4: Includes FoS: +2" Deployment Zone
So, you need 10-15pts of Exemplars, 6-22pts of one or two units of Errants, Bastions, Cinerators, or Vengers, and the 9pt FoS. 30-6pts minimum. Lack of Choirs and Reclaimers and Vassals makes me a saaaaad panda.
I have to say, they really didn't show the Flameguard any love. No solos, no UAs, and DotF are still the worst of the Kayazay/Bloodgorgers/Stormblade infantry line.
First, it's the Deliverer Sunburst, not general deliverers. Having said that, eKreoss' list is great for doing a themed Exemplar list. He's not exactly taking a lot of jacks anyway, so the loss of vassals and choirs (though Menofixers are in) is not as bad. It's also ridiculously fast. +2 deployment zone, plus a free advance move before the game starts, means units like Vengers or Errants can be up in your opponent's face immediately, or in control zones for tournament play.
Comes to 35 points exactly. At 50 points, max out the Errants (+3), add a minimum unit of Vengers (+7), and add in a Repenter and a Menofixer, or some variant thereof. With Gravus and one jack, you really don't need a reclaimer or the covenant. With one jack, you don't feel the loss of the choir or vassal as much. Take this list up against a Karchev list (or a general Khador/beast heavy list) and watch them cry.
Managed to win the store Nightfall finale today, which was neat. 50 points, and since Protectorate won nothing during the campaign, I was at a bit of a disadvantage (had 1 Cygnar, 2 Khador, 1 Troll, 2 Protectorate, and 1 Retribution, so 7 players in total and everyone but the two PoM players got some benefit). My list was:
My Strategem was Pathfinder, but it never came up. My side of the board was fairly clear of terrain, and since I was defending, my opponents were up in my face before I could really get too far across the board. Having to stay within 10" of ToM means I'm not going across the board very quickly.
The Piper was the TFG's unofficial second unit attachment for the day. He gave them Tough almost every round. Combined with Shield Wall, Iron Zeal once each game, Ashen Veil from ToM, Set Defense, and the Covenant preventing them from being knocked down, all of my opponents just kept hitting that wall and stalling time after time. I had the two Paladins just babysit the flags on the two flanks in Stone and Mortor and Impervious wall (making them almost unkillable). The Knights covered my flanks, Vilmon was up the middle, and ToM pretty much just hung back, Reviving when needed. The Vanquishers and Vassals meant I had four 4" AoE's every round that caused fire to everything under them.
The big deciding factor was I won defender for the first game, which was good because this army is way better at hanging back and playing the attrition game than trying to rush across the board. In my four games, I lost a single flag (Rahn or whatever his name is was able to move my Paladin far enough away from a flag that he could run a unit over and claim it). Otherwise, I managed to defeat:
eStryker twice
Sorcha
Rahn
The coolest moment of the game was killing an untouched Devestator with the Testament. Granted, it had used its Rain of Steal attack, so it was only ARM 17, but I was able to take out 34 boxes at dice-2. Granted, I had something like 18 focus to do it with, but still, a Protectorate caster killed a Khador heavy by them self in one round!
Things I either learned or got more experience with:
The Covenant really is fantastic. I used the no-spells ability, which saved my bacon against Sorcha and her weird uber-Greylords. No knock-down or stationary is always good, too.
ToM's feat is dumb. I think I used it once all day, and all it did was allow me to reposition some support models around Testament because things had gotten a bit crowded. Magic weapons are fairly common now, and since the Incorporeal goes away at the end of the turn, it can't even be used defensively. Lame.
Fire is just fantastic. I know, I've seen it work great with Feora and eFeora, but it's weird to see it with other casters. About 1/3 of the models I killed died to fire. All four the warcasters I faced were on fire at some point during the game.
2 Vanquishers with 2 Vassals is kind of mean. There aren't too many warcasters where that isn't a good combo to bring and have them be effective without hampering the army.
Even not so great warcasters like ToM can be effective if you have a plan and their strengths align well with the game objectives. This was an attrition kind of event, so an attrition warcaster was called for. I had my plan, I stuck to it as best I could, and things turned out well.
ToM's feat is dumb. I think I used it once all day, and all it did was allow me to reposition some support models around Testament because things had gotten a bit crowded. Magic weapons are fairly common now, and since the Incorporeal goes away at the end of the turn, it can't even be used defensively. Lame.
It's essentially Ghostly+Parry+Acrobatics for a turn. You could feat and Run->Iron Zeal your TFG into melee with whatever you want to tie down, or you could use it to charge your 18focus ToM through the two heavy jacks guarding the enemy caster. Cleansers could get Menoth-like spray lanes, Errants can charge out from a tar pit into something worthwhile, jacks can move through and behind another jack to get around shields. It's a great assassination feat.
The problem is that ToM is, of course, an attrition caster.
The Covenant is so awesome that he doesn't appear in any tier lists save for eSevvy's.
So Fire of Salvation is or is not allowed? I'd rather like him to be in haha
non character jacks, FoS; Deliverer Sunburst, Exemplars, Flameguard, Rhoven; Exemplar Solos, Mechaniks
t1: Knights Exemplar are FA:U
t2: 2+ Knights Exemplar: KE get advance move
t3: 4+ exemplar units: free errant or exemplar solo, ignore FA
t4: Includes FoS: +2" Deployment Zone
The Errant solo is in the NQ that came out back in March.
SPD 6, STR 6, MAT 8, RAT 7, 12/16, CMD 9. AD, Commander, Fearless, Pathfinder
Assault Charge, Call to Sacrifice [Errants], Hunter, Leadership [Errants] - Models in CMD gain Hunter.
Same weapons as Errants.
Point cost and description of what Call to Sacrifice acutally does please
Sounds sort of like sacrificial pawn, but I'm guessing more like an exact copy of Self-Sacrifice only its for him to kill Errants within 3" of him when he dies.
Nevermind, harassed a Menoth player on Vassal to give me the stats. Holy shit that solo is amazing for 2 points. The lack of jack support in eKreoss' tier is looking less and less important.
Who needs warjacks when your Errants are now Jesus with a magic crossbow? o_O
'Twas inspired to make a 50 point list. Any Menoth players are welcome to call me stupid and lame, but no one else :P
eKreoss- (+6)
Fire of Salvation-9
High Exemplar Gravus-5
Visgoth Rhoven and Co.-4
Knights Exemplar-5
Knights Exemplar 5
Max Errants w/ UA-10
Max Bastions-8
Max Bastions-8
Exemplar Errant Senschal-2
And a free Knight Exemplar Senschal.
For a grand total of 50. Somehow the prospect of that much Exemplar synergy makes me a happy person lol. Gravus says no to KD/stationary in his cmd, Errant senschal is jesus in disguise, KE Senschal gets better when folks die, as do KEs. And Kreoss heals when his brothers die.
Not to mention how much love I have for Bastions lol.
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0
tzeentchlingDoctor of RocksOaklandRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I'd only consider replacing Rhoven. He really doesn't do a whole lot for the list. Maybe consider taking a Repenter? The flame template might help out a bit. You could also replace Rhoven and one unit of Bastions with a full unit of Vengers and have a point left over for a Mechanic or something; or drop one unit of Bastions to minimum and drop Rhoven, and take a minimum unit of Vengers which breaks even. You might need some speed is all.
Posts
I breathe a sigh of relief now entering this BS-free zone. lol
Edit: Any chance someone knows the Menofixer's stats?
I'll be picking up the book tomorrow, I'll see if I can't scan it for you.
It's one point, def/arm 13, 5 damage.
Iron Sentinel: +2 def/arm when b2b with a friendly 'jack.
Repair [8] for d6 damage.
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
That's it? Really? I mean, it's better than the Arcanist who dies to errant spitballs, but I expected something other than "Repair [8]".
It's also 1 point.
So over at TheWarStore's website, I noticed a PIP that didn't look familiar: SKU :PIP 72045
MSRP: 27.99 Circle Orboros Wold Guardian
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
To be fair, the Menoth board is not as bad as some of the others. There's a couple jerks, but there's also some decent stuff there. Their tacticas are generally useful.
It's definitely not the worst forum I've ever seen by a long shot, and each community has a different atmosphere. Khador, for example, tends to be comparatively quiet when it comes to the doom cycle of things. There are some harsh critics and cynical pragmatists, but otherwise it's not awful.
Compared to say, the Skorne subforum, which is fucking inane.
There is, as we speak, a thread about how Molik Karn is too good, and is in every single Skorne list. I didn't even know this was an issue. I get that the Skorne get a kick out of torturing one another in the fluff, but that is no reason to pursue mediocrity.
Molik Karn is scary good, and is HUGE on Vassal. Idk about in real life, as no one I know plays Skorne. But Mutton and Co. (Pantheon mostly) seem to love him, and several others I've seen use him a ton.
I don't think hes broken by any means but damn hes scary.
He is, and he is. He's a better value than the Avatar, for the same point cost. The people who don't run him are doing so for one of three reasons:
1: They aren't aware of him being so good.
2: Their meta has evolved to the point where 50+% of lists are set up against Molik cheese.
3: They're not using him for the reason that he's over used.
He's not unbeatable, but he is 15 points of warbeast in an 11pt shell.
Oh man, I love the Skorne forum - makes me laugh so hard. So much GLOOOOOOM. best forum on the planet. You guys are just too happy.
What I don't completely understand is this effort by some of the Skorne subforumites to get MK nerfed. On the one hand I almost want to be happy about the attempt to pursue a more well balanced game. On the other hand, no other subforums seem to be as brazenly self destructive when it comes to pursuing nerfs to their own shit. They are just going to complain incessantly when MK is over-nerfed, yet never notice the pattern.
Since the release of the first fieldtest rules (In which Skorne was a hot mess) that forum has been raging from extreme to extreme, rarely ever considering moderation. Christ, during the fieldtest MK went from hilariously over the top killing machine to eyeroll worthy waste of eleven points, then back again, and so on and so forth. Lots of people would speak up occasionally, tossing in their two cents but then being shouted down by idiots. Generally speaking those folks, myself included, just reasoned that the nerf buff cycle would probably result in a fair number of models that would be ahead of the power curve.
MK is one of those models, and I for one am nothing but happy about that.
His tier is strange, without choir.
Well, Molik Karn can move 24" in a single activation with eMakada and is a weapon master, so yeah....
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
24"? With Leash, Road to War, Rush, two Side Steps and a charge I'm still only seeing 20" of movement in one activation for MK. Still outrageously far though, regardless.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
I just can't help but put him beside a Bronzeback though. The titan king may not have anywhere near the same threat range, but god in heaven he dishes it out. I actually saw a game on Vassal a few weeks back where a BB charged into melee range with two Khadoran heavies, one being the Behemoth. Wrecked em both with fairly average rolls.
Talk about a return on investment.
Bronzeback is great if you take another titan, especially a Cannoneer. Got a 5f caster like Morg? You can have 0-5 fury on the Titan and 4 on the Cannoneer, and the Cannoneer can't fail his threshold(has to be within 6" of him, but still). Then you can activate your caster, use whatever you want, and know that you won't have to cut next turn.
New developments in Forces of Menoth:
eFeora has a SP10 flamethrower! This isn't new, but I didn't know about it so I'm marking it new.
e/pFeora's Tier now allow Choirs of Menoth.
pReclaimer gets -1pt cost on Castigators as a tier 1 bonus. His tier 2 requires 3 Reclaimer solos, and they all get 1 soul token. Tier 4 only requires that you have 2 heavy jacks. I think it's a pretty killer tier list.
pKreoss makes Vengers FA2. Two units of 5 Vengers plus Gravus is about $180. Lawl.
Amon's list is pretty much worthless. Its best benefit is at tier 4, and gives you 1focus to each warjack on the first turn. That's the best benefit. After 18pts of non-warjack, non-support units.
Vindictus gives his army Pathfinder on the first turn, including jacks. He also gives his jacks AD. At the cost of 3+ heavies with spd5+, and two Errant units(and you get a free UA).
Cinerators are still shit.
Nothing new for Flameguard.
Currently painting: Slowly [flickr]
Don't judge a book by its cover haha
COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
Haven't had a chance to read it any of it yet, but I did see them mentioning Drago; and Drago is always cool.
And my PoM book won't be coming in the mail for a wee bit longer.
non character jacks, FoS; Deliverers, Exemplars, Flameguard, Rhoven; Exemplar Solos, Mechaniks
t1: above models: FA2 on Vengers
t2: 2+ Knights Exemplar: KE get advance move
t3: 4+ exemplar units: free errant or exemplar solo, ignore FA
t4: Includes FoS: +2" Deployment Zone
So, you need 10-15pts of Exemplars, 6-22pts of one or two units of Errants, Bastions, Cinerators, or Vengers, and the 9pt FoS. 30-6pts minimum. Lack of Choirs and Reclaimers and Vassals makes me a saaaaad panda.
I have to say, they really didn't show the Flameguard any love. No solos, no UAs, and DotF are still the worst of the Kayazay/Bloodgorgers/Stormblade infantry line.
His feat. The rage token thing.
I was reading this and under the impression that eButcher could only give out three rage tokens, total, because of the language "can give up to three rage tokens to any friendly non-warcaster Faction model in his control area". Does this work for multiple dudes, like, you can give them each 3? Cause I figured that's what the caveat about discarding unspent rage tokens referred to.
Edit: Also, if something gets free struck by a Kodiak, does it get one attack, or two? It has two fists.
You can give three rage tokens per model. The caveat means that models with extra rage tokens (because they killed everything in their melee range) at the end of the turn can't bank them for the next turn.
A free strike is a free strike. In fact, the only time having multiple melee weapons means anything is when making your (very specifically named and referred to) initial attacks.
P.S. - War Dog has earned a place in my heart after completely stalling an enemy assassination attempt by refusing to die and rolling 3 6's on his Tough roll in a row.
First, it's the Deliverer Sunburst, not general deliverers. Having said that, eKreoss' list is great for doing a themed Exemplar list. He's not exactly taking a lot of jacks anyway, so the loss of vassals and choirs (though Menofixers are in) is not as bad. It's also ridiculously fast. +2 deployment zone, plus a free advance move before the game starts, means units like Vengers or Errants can be up in your opponent's face immediately, or in control zones for tournament play.
Example:
eKreoss +6
Fire of Salvation - 9
Knights Exemplar - 5
Knights Exemplar - 5
Errants (min) - 5
Errant UA - 2
Errant Seneschal - 2
Bastions (full) - 8
Gravus - 5
Exemplar Seneschal - free
Comes to 35 points exactly. At 50 points, max out the Errants (+3), add a minimum unit of Vengers (+7), and add in a Repenter and a Menofixer, or some variant thereof. With Gravus and one jack, you really don't need a reclaimer or the covenant. With one jack, you don't feel the loss of the choir or vassal as much. Take this list up against a Karchev list (or a general Khador/beast heavy list) and watch them cry.
T1: Knights Exemplar are FA:U
You should also note that only the Knights Exemplar get the AD, not all exemplar units.
I'm currently imagining this:
Tier 2 pKreoss 35pt
4 Vigilant
11 Vengers
11 Vengers
5 Gravus
5 Knights Exemplar
3 Exemplar Seneschal
Vengers take out jacks while the Vigilant girds Kreoss and the KE. FoS isn't really a good jack for pKreoss, as he don't have anything decent to arc.
Testament of Menoth
2x Vanquisher
Hierophant
2x Choir (min)
Vilmon
2x Knights Exemplar
2x Paladin
Rupert
TFG (full) + UA
Covenant
2x Vassal
3 Wracks
My Strategem was Pathfinder, but it never came up. My side of the board was fairly clear of terrain, and since I was defending, my opponents were up in my face before I could really get too far across the board. Having to stay within 10" of ToM means I'm not going across the board very quickly.
The Piper was the TFG's unofficial second unit attachment for the day. He gave them Tough almost every round. Combined with Shield Wall, Iron Zeal once each game, Ashen Veil from ToM, Set Defense, and the Covenant preventing them from being knocked down, all of my opponents just kept hitting that wall and stalling time after time. I had the two Paladins just babysit the flags on the two flanks in Stone and Mortor and Impervious wall (making them almost unkillable). The Knights covered my flanks, Vilmon was up the middle, and ToM pretty much just hung back, Reviving when needed. The Vanquishers and Vassals meant I had four 4" AoE's every round that caused fire to everything under them.
The big deciding factor was I won defender for the first game, which was good because this army is way better at hanging back and playing the attrition game than trying to rush across the board. In my four games, I lost a single flag (Rahn or whatever his name is was able to move my Paladin far enough away from a flag that he could run a unit over and claim it). Otherwise, I managed to defeat:
eStryker twice
Sorcha
Rahn
The coolest moment of the game was killing an untouched Devestator with the Testament. Granted, it had used its Rain of Steal attack, so it was only ARM 17, but I was able to take out 34 boxes at dice-2. Granted, I had something like 18 focus to do it with, but still, a Protectorate caster killed a Khador heavy by them self in one round!
Things I either learned or got more experience with:
The Covenant really is fantastic. I used the no-spells ability, which saved my bacon against Sorcha and her weird uber-Greylords. No knock-down or stationary is always good, too.
ToM's feat is dumb. I think I used it once all day, and all it did was allow me to reposition some support models around Testament because things had gotten a bit crowded. Magic weapons are fairly common now, and since the Incorporeal goes away at the end of the turn, it can't even be used defensively. Lame.
Fire is just fantastic. I know, I've seen it work great with Feora and eFeora, but it's weird to see it with other casters. About 1/3 of the models I killed died to fire. All four the warcasters I faced were on fire at some point during the game.
2 Vanquishers with 2 Vassals is kind of mean. There aren't too many warcasters where that isn't a good combo to bring and have them be effective without hampering the army.
Even not so great warcasters like ToM can be effective if you have a plan and their strengths align well with the game objectives. This was an attrition kind of event, so an attrition warcaster was called for. I had my plan, I stuck to it as best I could, and things turned out well.
It's essentially Ghostly+Parry+Acrobatics for a turn. You could feat and Run->Iron Zeal your TFG into melee with whatever you want to tie down, or you could use it to charge your 18focus ToM through the two heavy jacks guarding the enemy caster. Cleansers could get Menoth-like spray lanes, Errants can charge out from a tar pit into something worthwhile, jacks can move through and behind another jack to get around shields. It's a great assassination feat.
The problem is that ToM is, of course, an attrition caster.
The Covenant is so awesome that he doesn't appear in any tier lists save for eSevvy's.
non character jacks, FoS; Deliverer Sunburst, Exemplars, Flameguard, Rhoven; Exemplar Solos, Mechaniks
t1: Knights Exemplar are FA:U
t2: 2+ Knights Exemplar: KE get advance move
t3: 4+ exemplar units: free errant or exemplar solo, ignore FA
t4: Includes FoS: +2" Deployment Zone
That's the correct tier list for eKreoss
Point cost and description of what Call to Sacrifice acutally does please
Sounds sort of like sacrificial pawn, but I'm guessing more like an exact copy of Self-Sacrifice only its for him to kill Errants within 3" of him when he dies.
Nevermind, harassed a Menoth player on Vassal to give me the stats. Holy shit that solo is amazing for 2 points. The lack of jack support in eKreoss' tier is looking less and less important.
Who needs warjacks when your Errants are now Jesus with a magic crossbow? o_O
eKreoss- (+6)
Fire of Salvation-9
High Exemplar Gravus-5
Visgoth Rhoven and Co.-4
Knights Exemplar-5
Knights Exemplar 5
Max Errants w/ UA-10
Max Bastions-8
Max Bastions-8
Exemplar Errant Senschal-2
And a free Knight Exemplar Senschal.
For a grand total of 50. Somehow the prospect of that much Exemplar synergy makes me a happy person lol. Gravus says no to KD/stationary in his cmd, Errant senschal is jesus in disguise, KE Senschal gets better when folks die, as do KEs. And Kreoss heals when his brothers die.
Not to mention how much love I have for Bastions lol.