I love that they're making 10s harder. I always feel like it's kind of a copout when we kill Arthas no problem in 10m but our 25 can't even down putricide, yet.
But having them on the same lockout is retarded. Though my girlfriend will certainly be pleased.
I don't know if I'd say Karazhan is soloable as a tank. On my paladin, I soloed Moroes, Attumen, Opera (Oz), and Malechezzar as protection. For the Curator and Aran, numerous mechanics necessitated a switch to retribution. For Aran, of course, it was the fact that he deals only magical damage anyway along with the frustrating mana-enrage-drinking-thing.
For Curator, I couldn't kill him while enraged before he killed me. So I switched to retribution and blew him down on the first Evocate.
Fair point. My Prot Pally doesn't have a Ret spec at the moment.
At any rate, my point was that Curator wasn't soloable by DKs, specifically because he's still immune to diseases as all mechs used to be before the change to bleeds and such.
So, your damage is shit and you have no regular self-healing. I don't even think that with Rune Tap and Death Pact you could pull it off any more. *Maybe* when diseaseless Blood was hot shit, but I doubt it.
Besides that though, I think the only major obstacles to soloing would be Netherspite and maybe the Prince? Not sure on that one, just seems like the lack of being able to block for silly-high amounts on the fast swinging phase 2 would be a little iffy.
Netherspite can be pulled out of his room and killed while ignoring the portals, this has been possible since Karazhan was released. Prince is crazy easy with the amount of dodge/block/parry that all tanks have now.
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
I am extraordinarily pleased by this.
Only problem is who the hell will actually run a 25 man?
25 man will still drop more gold/badges/loot than 10 man.
10 Man 25 man
20 gold each 40 gold each
2 Badges 3 badges
2 pieces of loot 3 pieces of loot
1 tier piece 2 tier pieces
with that i think people would still do 25.. especially guilds that have 25 people on a reg basis, but just incase, they can always drop down to 10. And honestly the biggest change for this that i love is the fact that i wont burn out on all my toons doing icc10/25. I only have 3 capable of doing em, and it gets tiring to do it. This way, ill have half the time in 1 instance but the same time in 2 different ones which i think is a lot better.
That's awfully weak.
I'm also surprised that no one is really crying about the death of 25 mans here.
Most of the people I know that are in 10-man only raiding guilds aren't extremely gear hungry, so based on this one anecdote, I don't really think that most guilds that are 10-man only are all that concerned about the gear in the first place.
Eh, im sure if they double the loot from 10 man people would do 25. Or even now. Most of the guilds that are hardcore 25 man are going to want to do them due to the fact that they get more loot/badges and get to gear up faster and get to the end faster. More loot = faster progression in most cases for these hardcore guilds. In a run they get say with 5 bosses, at a min 5 more badges and 5 more pieces of loot and 1 extra tier. Thats more than enough for them. For the 10 man people, what does it matter? You are getting the loot anyway, and slower.
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!
The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.
We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.
Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.
We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.
We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.
In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.
We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.
We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
I am extraordinarily pleased by this.
Only problem is who the hell will actually run a 25 man?
25 man will still drop more gold/badges/loot than 10 man.
10 Man 25 man
20 gold each 40 gold each
2 Badges 3 badges
2 pieces of loot 3 pieces of loot
1 tier piece 2 tier pieces
with that i think people would still do 25.. especially guilds that have 25 people on a reg basis, but just incase, they can always drop down to 10. And honestly the biggest change for this that i love is the fact that i wont burn out on all my toons doing icc10/25. I only have 3 capable of doing em, and it gets tiring to do it. This way, ill have half the time in 1 instance but the same time in 2 different ones which i think is a lot better.
That's awfully weak.
I'm also surprised that no one is really crying about the death of 25 mans here.
Most of the people I know that are in 10-man only raiding guilds aren't extremely gear hungry, so based on this one anecdote, I don't really think that most guilds that are 10-man only are all that concerned about the gear in the first place.
Eh, im sure if they double the loot from 10 man people would do 25. Or even now. Most of the guilds that are hardcore 25 man are going to want to do them due to the fact that they get more loot/badges and get to gear up faster and get to the end faster. More loot = faster progression in most cases for these hardcore guilds. In a run they get say with 5 bosses, at a min 5 more badges and 5 more pieces of loot and 1 extra tier. Thats more than enough for them. For the 10 man people, what does it matter? You are getting the loot anyway, and slower.
If those numbers are true, that's only 1 piece of loot and 1 extra tier token to spread among 15 more people. That is not gearing up faster. Badges are only important for the first few weeks of any raid, then become worthless as always. The gold difference is irrelevant entirely.
Sure, but say you're a casual guild. You now have to choose whether to run with a snappier set of 10 and maybe get a few more bosses down, or to run your 25 man where you might not get as far. And then, if you are stymied in 25 man, you are saved and can't run the 10 man.
It just greatly limits choice, and that's supposedly been the opposite of their strategy lately.
Yeah, that is the shittiest part is that you can't downgrade to 10 man if not enough people show up for 25 man or it's a holiday, etc etc. "Well, it's exam week so we don't have enough for 25 man this week, let's do 10 man OH WAIT we can't."
Kinda wondering about this balancing act. I mean, weren't they already trying to make the 10 and 25 about the same difficulty? They certainly haven't succeeded in doing that so far.
I don't see them being able to pull this off unless they turn every fight into a stupid simple tank and spank. Throw in any quirky mechanics like any recent raids have, and the differences between 10 and 25 get extremely complex to balance. Just add in mechanics which force you to spread out and be at least a certain distance from another player (Saurfang or Princes) and suddenly the 10 man version becomes far easier. Change the number of adds which must be killed (such as the valks on LK or beasts on Saurfang) based on the number of people in the raid, and it adds more complexity which makes the larger raid harder. But on the flipside, if they kept the number of adds in 25 the same as in 10, the 25 man raid would suddenly become much easier than 10.
Limiting peole to one raid encompassing 10 and 25 introduces a logistical nightmare for guilds. I do agree that ToC, with potentially 4 raid ids between 10, 10hard, 25, and 25hard was too much. But the model they used with ICC allows a good amount of flexibility. I actually prefer the method they used in Ulduar for activating hard modes, but that's another issue entirely.
Maybe I'm just too oldschool, but I'd like to see the return of raids that are one size only. Just make completely different raids for 10 and 25 like in vanilla or TBC. (well, it was 20 or 40 in vanilla, but you get the idea)
TheTish on
-- Gnome mage enchantress and inscriptionologist... er scribbler --
They're changing it so that MotW will be Kings in Cata.
Where is this from? All I can see anywhere is that MOTW will no longer give spirit in cataclysm.
They mentioned it during the class preview bonanza, I belief. Can't find a link right now, but rest assured, L Ron didn't just have a horrendous fever dream about it.
It wasn't something they confirmed, some blue poster was speculating out loud about doing that and it was never mentioned again. It's a plausible change, though.
Maybe I'm just too oldschool, but I'd like to see the return of raids that are one size only. Just make completely different raids for 10 and 25 like in vanilla or TBC. (well, it was 20 or 40 in vanilla, but you get the idea)
See, this is what I loved most about Wrath. I came in towards the end of BC, and my guild has never had enough people to run 25man stuff. I still haven't even been inside Tempest Keep or Sunwell. I've loved being able to run all the content with my small guild.
The only thing that still bothered me was that one got much better items because they could herd more cats. And I don't know about difficulty, as what few 25man experiences I had involved losing about 5-10 people through the course of the fight and still winning.
And then this. It's pretty much what I've always wanted.
Netherspite can be pulled out of his room and killed while ignoring the portals, this has been possible since Karazhan was released.
How do you get past the door? Pet pull or what?
He pats right up to the door. Pull him and run through the door into the previous room.
Isn't the door supposed to close when you engage him?
Or did that break?
(Edit: Specifically, they were trying to stop people from running out of the room during phase 2.)
You can stand in the door and pull him through it. He pats that close.
And he just runs through the closed door?
At this point, I'm partially curious if the door even succeeds at closing, given how often they break old shit.
He runs through the open door that closes after a few seconds like all doors on the planet do. The door does close. This has been going on for 3 years or so now. I take it you didn't play in BC.
Bikkstah on
0
Options
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
For the first few weeks (months... years) of Cataclysm it will be:
:x Hey Paladin give me Kings.
:? No, there's a druid in the group.
:x *explitive* *slur*
:? No, really, you need Might. Kings is the same as Mark of the Wild now.
:x Noob, failpally. *DC*
Kinda wondering about this balancing act. I mean, weren't they already trying to make the 10 and 25 about the same difficulty? They certainly haven't succeeded in doing that so far.
[...]
Well, they have been tuning 10mans for a lower gear level.
But yeah, I dunno, I don't see balancing working out real well.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
0
Options
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
For the first few weeks (months... years) of Cataclysm it will be:
:x Hey Paladin give me Kings.
:? No, there's a druid in the group.
:x *explitive* *slur*
:? No, really, you need Might. Kings is the same as Mark of the Wild now.
:x Noob, failpally. *DC*
The idea to make them the same keeps sounding better and better.
Netherspite can be pulled out of his room and killed while ignoring the portals, this has been possible since Karazhan was released.
How do you get past the door? Pet pull or what?
He pats right up to the door. Pull him and run through the door into the previous room.
Isn't the door supposed to close when you engage him?
Or did that break?
(Edit: Specifically, they were trying to stop people from running out of the room during phase 2.)
You can stand in the door and pull him through it. He pats that close.
And he just runs through the closed door?
At this point, I'm partially curious if the door even succeeds at closing, given how often they break old shit.
He runs through the open door that closes after a few seconds like all doors on the planet do. The door does close. This has been going on for 3 years or so now. I take it you didn't play in BC.
I did. We pulled from the inside. More specifically, I remember being able to be in the room without pulling him (although maybe he didn't body pull, I don't remember).
Edit: Also, it's been a while, since you know, I haven't been to Kara at all since TBC. Silly man.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
They'd have to change the loot drops so that proportionally, everyone got more loot in a 25 man raid.
For example, if a 10 man boss is going to drop 2 pieces of epic loot, the 25 man boss should drop 6. You get the same 1:5 drop ration, plus an extra piece for the headaches of the 25 man run.
The ultimate equation Blizzard has to consider that if I have 25+ people in my guild, and want to get them geared as fast as possible, I'll take them to the encounters that offer the best loot:person ratio, now that all the loot will be normalized. If I can get more loot for more people running 2-3 10 man raids than 1 25 man raid, there's no reason to ever run a 25 man, from a gear perspective.
It flat out says in the post that 25 man will be the more "efficient" option for purposes of gearing up.
So yeah, 25 mans are going to end up gearing up faster than 10s as a herding cats tax.
Javen on
0
Options
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
You could stand against the inner wall and not pull him. We'd always shuffle in, stay along the wall until the tank started running in towards him. It's not a stretch of the imagination by any means that you could stand in the doorway and pull him, as I recall quite a few times where if people weren't standing against the wall he'd be body pulled and wipe us as we've been caught off guard, and the red and green beams would stack up on him as we desparately would try to run into position.
I can see 4, 6, not a chance. Hell, maybe they will make 10man drop 4 and 25man drop 8.
TheCrumblyCracker on
0
Options
jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited April 2010
Even with just the exact same ratio of drops:person wouldn't a 25 man offer faster gearing at least in theory. There wouldn't be any "welp, the hunter that needs this bow is in the other 10 man" moments.
I can see 4, 6, not a chance. Hell, maybe they will make 10man drop 4 and 25man drop 8.
But then it's more efficient for me to put together 2-3 10 man raids, instead of one 25. And as a player, I would rather do a 10 man then a 25 man, because my chance of getting a drop is much higher.
In your example, I have a 40% chance of getting something. In 25 man, I have a 32% chance.
Why would I, as a player, choose the option where I, statistically speaking, get less loot?
I don't see them backing off the 2 items in a 10 man, because you'd have people bitching and screaming about loosing half the loot in 10 mans. Therefore, I think their only option is to increase the number of drops in 25 man. Read as written, the implication is you will gear faster doing 25 man raids, due to the Goose Tax associated with running 25 mans.
I love the idea of 10s dropping the same loot as 25 but I think they'll have to come up with a better incentive to get people to run 25s if that's their plan.
Maybe better graphics on the loot from 25s? Or make the rep vendor sell better stuff in the 25s. Perhaps have the last boss have a chance to drop something the 10s version doesn't.
25 man drops are totally wasted a lot faster than 10, especially with 2 tier tokens per wing boss in 25 man normal and 3 on heroic versus 0 on 10 normal and 1 on heroic. We've had 264 conquerer/protector tokens rotting for months now in 25 man while many of us run 10 man heroic for vanquisher tokens.
Netherspite can be pulled out of his room and killed while ignoring the portals, this has been possible since Karazhan was released.
How do you get past the door? Pet pull or what?
He pats right up to the door. Pull him and run through the door into the previous room.
Isn't the door supposed to close when you engage him?
Or did that break?
(Edit: Specifically, they were trying to stop people from running out of the room during phase 2.)
You can stand in the door and pull him through it. He pats that close.
And he just runs through the closed door?
At this point, I'm partially curious if the door even succeeds at closing, given how often they break old shit.
He runs through the open door that closes after a few seconds like all doors on the planet do. The door does close. This has been going on for 3 years or so now. I take it you didn't play in BC.
I did. We pulled from the inside. More specifically, I remember being able to be in the room without pulling him (although maybe he didn't body pull, I don't remember).
Edit: Also, it's been a while, since you know, I haven't been to Kara at all since TBC. Silly man.
He doesn't body pull, especially not at 80 when he's 73. He walks within spell range of the door then you cast a spell on him and walk backwards.
I love the idea of 10s dropping the same loot as 25 but I think they'll have to come up with a better incentive to get people to run 25s if that's their plan.
Maybe better graphics on the loot from 25s? Or make the rep vendor sell better stuff in the 25s. Perhaps have the last boss have a chance to drop something the 10s version doesn't.
More loot dropped per person is a great incentive.
Posts
But having them on the same lockout is retarded. Though my girlfriend will certainly be pleased.
Where is this from? All I can see anywhere is that MOTW will no longer give spirit in cataclysm.
Fair point. My Prot Pally doesn't have a Ret spec at the moment.
At any rate, my point was that Curator wasn't soloable by DKs, specifically because he's still immune to diseases as all mechs used to be before the change to bleeds and such.
So, your damage is shit and you have no regular self-healing. I don't even think that with Rune Tap and Death Pact you could pull it off any more. *Maybe* when diseaseless Blood was hot shit, but I doubt it.
Besides that though, I think the only major obstacles to soloing would be Netherspite and maybe the Prince? Not sure on that one, just seems like the lack of being able to block for silly-high amounts on the fast swinging phase 2 would be a little iffy.
Eh, im sure if they double the loot from 10 man people would do 25. Or even now. Most of the guilds that are hardcore 25 man are going to want to do them due to the fact that they get more loot/badges and get to gear up faster and get to the end faster. More loot = faster progression in most cases for these hardcore guilds. In a run they get say with 5 bosses, at a min 5 more badges and 5 more pieces of loot and 1 extra tier. Thats more than enough for them. For the 10 man people, what does it matter? You are getting the loot anyway, and slower.
I really like my guild's 25 man run. I have had nothing but angst and misery from 10 mans stretching back to ZA.
If those numbers are true, that's only 1 piece of loot and 1 extra tier token to spread among 15 more people. That is not gearing up faster. Badges are only important for the first few weeks of any raid, then become worthless as always. The gold difference is irrelevant entirely.
It just greatly limits choice, and that's supposedly been the opposite of their strategy lately.
How do you get past the door? Pet pull or what?
He pats right up to the door. Pull him and run through the door into the previous room.
Isn't the door supposed to close when you engage him?
Or did that break?
(Edit: Specifically, they were trying to stop people from running out of the room during phase 2.)
Kinda wondering about this balancing act. I mean, weren't they already trying to make the 10 and 25 about the same difficulty? They certainly haven't succeeded in doing that so far.
I don't see them being able to pull this off unless they turn every fight into a stupid simple tank and spank. Throw in any quirky mechanics like any recent raids have, and the differences between 10 and 25 get extremely complex to balance. Just add in mechanics which force you to spread out and be at least a certain distance from another player (Saurfang or Princes) and suddenly the 10 man version becomes far easier. Change the number of adds which must be killed (such as the valks on LK or beasts on Saurfang) based on the number of people in the raid, and it adds more complexity which makes the larger raid harder. But on the flipside, if they kept the number of adds in 25 the same as in 10, the 25 man raid would suddenly become much easier than 10.
Limiting peole to one raid encompassing 10 and 25 introduces a logistical nightmare for guilds. I do agree that ToC, with potentially 4 raid ids between 10, 10hard, 25, and 25hard was too much. But the model they used with ICC allows a good amount of flexibility. I actually prefer the method they used in Ulduar for activating hard modes, but that's another issue entirely.
Maybe I'm just too oldschool, but I'd like to see the return of raids that are one size only. Just make completely different raids for 10 and 25 like in vanilla or TBC. (well, it was 20 or 40 in vanilla, but you get the idea)
-- Gnome mage enchantress and inscriptionologist... er scribbler --
You can stand in the door and pull him through it. He pats that close.
They mentioned it during the class preview bonanza, I belief. Can't find a link right now, but rest assured, L Ron didn't just have a horrendous fever dream about it.
And he just runs through the closed door?
At this point, I'm partially curious if the door even succeeds at closing, given how often they break old shit.
See, this is what I loved most about Wrath. I came in towards the end of BC, and my guild has never had enough people to run 25man stuff. I still haven't even been inside Tempest Keep or Sunwell. I've loved being able to run all the content with my small guild.
The only thing that still bothered me was that one got much better items because they could herd more cats. And I don't know about difficulty, as what few 25man experiences I had involved losing about 5-10 people through the course of the fight and still winning.
And then this. It's pretty much what I've always wanted.
He runs through the open door that closes after a few seconds like all doors on the planet do. The door does close. This has been going on for 3 years or so now. I take it you didn't play in BC.
:x Hey Paladin give me Kings.
:? No, there's a druid in the group.
:x *explitive* *slur*
:? No, really, you need Might. Kings is the same as Mark of the Wild now.
:x Noob, failpally. *DC*
Well, they have been tuning 10mans for a lower gear level.
But yeah, I dunno, I don't see balancing working out real well.
The idea to make them the same keeps sounding better and better.
I did. We pulled from the inside. More specifically, I remember being able to be in the room without pulling him (although maybe he didn't body pull, I don't remember).
Edit: Also, it's been a while, since you know, I haven't been to Kara at all since TBC. Silly man.
For example, if a 10 man boss is going to drop 2 pieces of epic loot, the 25 man boss should drop 6. You get the same 1:5 drop ration, plus an extra piece for the headaches of the 25 man run.
The ultimate equation Blizzard has to consider that if I have 25+ people in my guild, and want to get them geared as fast as possible, I'll take them to the encounters that offer the best loot:person ratio, now that all the loot will be normalized. If I can get more loot for more people running 2-3 10 man raids than 1 25 man raid, there's no reason to ever run a 25 man, from a gear perspective.
10 drops 2 pieces, while 25m drops 3.
So yeah, 25 mans are going to end up gearing up faster than 10s as a herding cats tax.
But then it's more efficient for me to put together 2-3 10 man raids, instead of one 25. And as a player, I would rather do a 10 man then a 25 man, because my chance of getting a drop is much higher.
In your example, I have a 40% chance of getting something. In 25 man, I have a 32% chance.
Why would I, as a player, choose the option where I, statistically speaking, get less loot?
I don't see them backing off the 2 items in a 10 man, because you'd have people bitching and screaming about loosing half the loot in 10 mans. Therefore, I think their only option is to increase the number of drops in 25 man. Read as written, the implication is you will gear faster doing 25 man raids, due to the Goose Tax associated with running 25 mans.
I think 2 and 6 is going to be the magic numbers.
Maybe better graphics on the loot from 25s? Or make the rep vendor sell better stuff in the 25s. Perhaps have the last boss have a chance to drop something the 10s version doesn't.
He doesn't body pull, especially not at 80 when he's 73. He walks within spell range of the door then you cast a spell on him and walk backwards.
More loot dropped per person is a great incentive.