protoss seem especially weak to MnM(nM potentially) and the collossus seems pretty unreachable to counter the build, and I've been racking up points spamming it whenever the opponent picks protoss...what counters should I be scouting for so I don't get caught by surprise?
If you are too maurader heavy then immortals will ruin your day. I had a pretty big back and forth with a terran who had that and he pushed me back into my base and blew up my robo bay, but I was able to wipe out his force with my remnants and pulling my probes and rebuilt strong enough to contain and beat him.
Chargelots and/or sentries to cut off your path of retreat can screw you up too. Later on colossi or templars can put you in a world of hurt if the game goes long enough.
I understand, but 2 reactor/1 tech lab doesn't take much guff from immortals, I imagine massed lots could counter, but the average toss is too tempted to get early gas.
NOTE: despite their limited use, Thors are easily my favorite unit. I pray that they're teching siege tanks or mutas so i can hear that voice. They also see some use swatting air that come for my tanks or banshees
How early of a push are you talking about? If you go for an all in he can block the choke with a forcefield and let his forces build up some. A good use of sentry can hold off a lot of early pushes, and it can cut off your escape and prevent kiting zealots depending upon the terrain.
I've literally never seen force fields used effectively, so I guess I DON'T have free range to walk in on toss and stomp on their sandcastle if i scout a cyber
the most satisfying thing in the game is seeing a thor sniping your air units from wayyyy behind the terran's wall, by his CC, and then neural parasiting it
then stomping around in his base
Nah, the best is parasiting someone's thor drop then gaining unlimited range control over it when they pick it up and drop it off in their base.
the most satisfying thing in the game is seeing a thor sniping your air units from wayyyy behind the terran's wall, by his CC, and then neural parasiting it
then stomping around in his base
Nah, the best is parasiting someone's thor drop then gaining unlimited range control over it when they pick it up and drop it off in their base.
So, I got reset. Heh, no problem. Did my placement matches again, was placed in a league higher than before. But then, I logged out and logged back in, and it took me to my old record and league. Are there now two quine.quine's out there?
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Yeah, we had this discussion a while back. Some say warpgates are an upgrade that's a natural progression of protoss macro. Others say there should be a downside to using them and a player should swap between warpgates and normal gates depending on the situation. I think pretty much everyone agrees that they are slightly OP.
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
I've been working on some maps since the release of the map maker. Hopefully they can be polished enough to be playable once the publishing is active. I know its hard to tell from the crummy videos but could any of you guys take a look and give me some feedback. Look nice? To confusing? Comments?
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
Interesting, why is it harder versus zerg? Also in early/mid game toss usually can get enough of an advantage to beat terran allot more often then not. Maybe its just the players but toss always seems to have some kind of advantage versus terran.
Salid Snake on
0
CorehealerThe ApothecaryThe softer edge of the universe.Registered Userregular
Either mass roaches fuck everything or mass mutas kill everything
If you do some careful blocking and toss in a cannon or two you can fighting off the first rush or two. Hopefully, by that point you can tech to something higher like Colossus or Immortals.
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
So what's the prevailing opinion on the skill requirements of the three races? It seems weird to me that the Zerg have virtually no activated abilities on their combat units other than Burrow and Infestors. Compared to Protoss who have a boatload of abilities to micro. Are Zerg supposed to be more macro-oriented while Protoss are micro-oriented?
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
Interesting, why is it harder versus zerg? Also in early/mid game toss usually can get enough of an advantage to beat terran allot more often then not. Maybe its just the players but toss always seems to have some kind of advantage versus terran.
They do have about a five percent advantage in win rate v Terran right now and its a combination of a number of factors, a lot of it coming down to Protosss actually knowing how to use sentries and stalkers now. Toss are also great against Terran infantry, are designed to counter Terran Mech (Why hello there Mr. Immortal) and can generally keep the Terran contained more easily than a Zerg for instance because their army is far more mobile and Terrans have difficulty tech switching.
Edit: To Zek
Yeah pretty much. Flavorwise each Protoss unit represents an investment, a highly trained and valuable fraction of the dwindling Protoss race. Zerg are far more throw waves of disposable grunts at you until you break so it makes sense their units are very no-frills and not valuable since they are mindless and completely expendable. They canonically have two suicide units after all.
So what's the prevailing opinion on the skill requirements of the three races? It seems weird to me that the Zerg have virtually no activated abilities on their combat units other than Burrow and Infestors. Compared to Protoss who have a boatload of abilities to micro. Are Zerg supposed to be more macro-oriented while Protoss are micro-oriented?
Well every races requires macro and micro. But basically toss are more micro intensive, zerg is more macro intensive and terran is in between.
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
Interesting, why is it harder versus zerg? Also in early/mid game toss usually can get enough of an advantage to beat terran allot more often then not. Maybe its just the players but toss always seems to have some kind of advantage versus terran.
Zerg production capabilities are much more intense than any warpgate if you have a strong economy and good enough mechanics to constantly spawn larvae. And once they get brood lords out it's like a death sentence. The reason why early aggression builds are so popular pvz is because if you don't aggress early the zerg will drone hard and just run you over. And early/mid game pvt is contentious as to which race has the advantage, one of the best T players, Morrow, talks about how he's near 100% ratio v p with his FE marauder build, while other people will complain about how p can do a four warpgate rush into a relatively safe expo. But if it actually gets into the late game fully upgraded mmm with proper micro against storms and air support is definitely enough to contend with the p.
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Nah, broodlords over hydras beats anything
You forgot the roachesssss, god the raoches
TheSuperWoot on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited April 2010
There is no point in getting roaches if you are using broodlords.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Nah, broodlords over hydras beats anything
You forgot the roachesssss, god the raoches
One game I actually did go roach vs broodlord. I just moved my roaches around while burrowed with the super regen and the broodlings couldn't kill them.
Is it just me or are warpgates too powerful? They have no downside and they have massive benefits. From what i have seen of pro/high level games, protoss are winning most of the games where both sides macro up. Im not counting the games where terrans and zerg rush protoss. And what I noticed is that protoss is able to recover from losing a battle far faster then terran and almost as fast as zerg. This is due to warpgates being able to reinforce so quickly you are facing an increasingly uphill battle. This is especially true when protoss has 10-15 warpgates. thats 15 zealots to perhaps 7-8 marines or mauraders(plus whatever factories and starports your have) ever 30 seconds. That just seems unbalanced.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
Interesting, why is it harder versus zerg? Also in early/mid game toss usually can get enough of an advantage to beat terran allot more often then not. Maybe its just the players but toss always seems to have some kind of advantage versus terran.
Zerg production capabilities are much more intense than any warpgate if you have a strong economy and good enough mechanics to constantly spawn larvae. And once they get brood lords out it's like a death sentence. The reason why early aggression builds are so popular pvz is because if you don't aggress early the zerg will drone hard and just run you over. And early/mid game pvt is contentious as to which race has the advantage, one of the best T players, Morrow, talks about how he's near 100% ratio v p with his FE marauder build, while other people will complain about how p can do a four warpgate rush into a relatively safe expo. But if it actually gets into the late game fully upgraded mmm with proper micro against storms and air support is definitely enough to contend with the p.
What does this FE maurader build consist of? i must try it lol
Salid Snake on
0
TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
So what's the prevailing opinion on the skill requirements of the three races? It seems weird to me that the Zerg have virtually no activated abilities on their combat units other than Burrow and Infestors. Compared to Protoss who have a boatload of abilities to micro. Are Zerg supposed to be more macro-oriented while Protoss are micro-oriented?
Well every races requires macro and micro. But basically toss are more micro intensive, zerg is more macro intensive and terran is in between.
Terran used to have the highest requirements. But they no longer have vulture mines to micro, which removes alot of their technical difficulty. Ghosts and hellions take some skill, but they aren't in many staple builds. Most units are still ranged though, so positioning is still key.
Zerg are still at the bottom of the micro pole because of just how many macro options they have, but their micro translates to 'WWAARAHGH'
Protoss have more spellcasters this time around, so yeah, they take alot more micromanaging. I'm not sure if their base options are that much simpler than terran though
Well, roaches used to be micro units but blizzard decided to nerf their burrow move and burrow regen because attack move balls of roaches were too strong.
Well, roaches used to be micro units but blizzard decided to nerf their burrow move and burrow regen because attack move balls of roaches were too strong.
Yeah I didn't get that. Nerf the one thing about roaches that's actually interesting?
Finally did my placement, placed gold...don't think i should be there as I my last placement I got totally dominated by a toss with DT's and just overall better build than me. I'm sure ill drop soon enough, hehe. I am down for a few games if anyone is.
joemunkeh on
0
TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
I placed gold before the wipe but got quickly whittled down to copper where I started winning about 4/5 matches on average, I'm down for any PA friend reqs to play some games (solo or 2v2)
I just finished my placement matches and won each of them handily. I think I'm starting to get better.
I've found the key to overcoming Terran production problems is not to rely on the counter-his-units mindset so much as counter-his-movements. I'm starting to avoid the problem of tech-switching and needing five of every production building by using heavily mixed armies. My default play now is to head for MMM plus Thors with vikings available if necessary. I use hellions and ghosts quite a bit as well, but I never seem to get the higher-end air units. BCs, ravens, and banshees almost never enter my build queues.
Anyway, I'll be online for a bit if someone from PA wants to play. Username is DeadMenRise.rime.
oh man just played the perfect ZvZ. my opponent opened with speedling and i went with roaches to block my ramp. It progressed to midgame and my opponent expanded and massed mutas, i had a composition of mostly roaches with some hydras and infesters too. He attacks me with his ball of 10 -12 mutas and i get off the perfect fungal growth that hits them all and the little amount of hydras i have snipe the mutas from a safe distance killing all the mutas without taking more than a single volley from the mutas..... GG!
Jesus christ, this game is going to give me a heart attack. I pulled a guy a division up on Incineration Station, and he Immortal/Stalker rushed me through the rocks, and tore through my siege tanks/marauders. Just straight up outplayed me.
Next match, I pull the same guy on scrap station. Big FML moment. I catch a scan of him JUST dropping his Stargate, get a goddamned wall of turrets up and my usual Viking armada, and he waltzes right in and gets plastered. Just leaves right then and there without a word. I love this game, but it really is going to be the death of me.
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
I'll play a bit if folks are looking (Aegis.aegis).
Just played a placement match against a slow protoss who decided to void ray rush me. Scouted this and turretted up. Then pushed after expanded with him just having expanded late. Beat his armies of full stalkers + 2 immortals with stimmed marauders and he just left the game.
I just finished my placement matches and won each of them handily. I think I'm starting to get better.
I've found the key to overcoming Terran production problems is not to rely on the counter-his-units mindset so much as counter-his-movements. I'm starting to avoid the problem of tech-switching and needing five of every production building by using heavily mixed armies. My default play now is to head for MMM plus Thors with vikings available if necessary. I use hellions and ghosts quite a bit as well, but I never seem to get the higher-end air units. BCs, ravens, and banshees almost never enter my build queues.
Anyway, I'll be online for a bit if someone from PA wants to play. Username is DeadMenRise.rime.
The slow and potentially stationary nature of siege tanks and thor supports the idea that positioning and scouting is very key. But any amount of MMM requires you to packs along very specifc counters (thors v mutas, vikings v colossus, tanks v banelings, banshess v tanks etc.) or else they can hit the dirt pretty hard. You always gotta know what they're bringing or else the terran can stumble.
TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
edited April 2010
tanks are my backbone in TvT because Thor support can wreck the obvious banshees, but mnm can do so well against zerg/protoss with only a few exceptions and is an easier build to run so you'll run into it all day. Tanks get a little bit left out, even though they're still great TvZ
Broodlords are so useless without anything to back them up. Just did a 2v2 where the opposing zerg massed like a dozen Broodlords and we easily countered them with my 4 mutalisks and my teammates 6 void rays.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Nah, broodlords over hydras beats anything
Yea, i'd agree with that actually, the 50 gas for the hydras goes down a lot easier too.
Tanks en masse makes me feel like I will be too open to air attack. Against TvP I am begging to get countered by immortals and against zerg they can switch to air.
They rock the party in TvT though. Sooo many games decided by tanks.
Posts
I've literally never seen force fields used effectively, so I guess I DON'T have free range to walk in on toss and stomp on their sandcastle if i scout a cyber
Nah, the best is parasiting someone's thor drop then gaining unlimited range control over it when they pick it up and drop it off in their base.
Haha that is awesome.
Yes.
Also adding into the fact you can chrono boost warpgates making them even more powerful.
They only why i can think of this being fixed is increasing the warpgate cooldown time by 10 seconds or perhaps adding a 10% increase in cost from warp gates per unit. What do you think?
Yeah, we had this discussion a while back. Some say warpgates are an upgrade that's a natural progression of protoss macro. Others say there should be a downside to using them and a player should swap between warpgates and normal gates depending on the situation. I think pretty much everyone agrees that they are slightly OP.
Actually in a long macro game pvz gets harder and harder for the toss, and most people agree that if a pvt acutally gets into the late game it's fairly balanced. The real problems with pvt come from the early and mid-game.
Thanks in advance!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P4Ekb2jaSI
Either mass roaches fuck everything or mass mutas kill everything
Interesting, why is it harder versus zerg? Also in early/mid game toss usually can get enough of an advantage to beat terran allot more often then not. Maybe its just the players but toss always seems to have some kind of advantage versus terran.
Usually broodlords because at that point it's your best option.
If you do some careful blocking and toss in a cannon or two you can fighting off the first rush or two. Hopefully, by that point you can tech to something higher like Colossus or Immortals.
They do have about a five percent advantage in win rate v Terran right now and its a combination of a number of factors, a lot of it coming down to Protosss actually knowing how to use sentries and stalkers now. Toss are also great against Terran infantry, are designed to counter Terran Mech (Why hello there Mr. Immortal) and can generally keep the Terran contained more easily than a Zerg for instance because their army is far more mobile and Terrans have difficulty tech switching.
Edit: To Zek
Yeah pretty much. Flavorwise each Protoss unit represents an investment, a highly trained and valuable fraction of the dwindling Protoss race. Zerg are far more throw waves of disposable grunts at you until you break so it makes sense their units are very no-frills and not valuable since they are mindless and completely expendable. They canonically have two suicide units after all.
Well every races requires macro and micro. But basically toss are more micro intensive, zerg is more macro intensive and terran is in between.
Zerg production capabilities are much more intense than any warpgate if you have a strong economy and good enough mechanics to constantly spawn larvae. And once they get brood lords out it's like a death sentence. The reason why early aggression builds are so popular pvz is because if you don't aggress early the zerg will drone hard and just run you over. And early/mid game pvt is contentious as to which race has the advantage, one of the best T players, Morrow, talks about how he's near 100% ratio v p with his FE marauder build, while other people will complain about how p can do a four warpgate rush into a relatively safe expo. But if it actually gets into the late game fully upgraded mmm with proper micro against storms and air support is definitely enough to contend with the p.
Well...yeah. He was an idiot though, 4 or 5 brood lords and a flock of Mutas is the way to go.
Nah, broodlords over hydras beats anything
You forgot the roachesssss, god the raoches
One game I actually did go roach vs broodlord. I just moved my roaches around while burrowed with the super regen and the broodlings couldn't kill them.
What does this FE maurader build consist of? i must try it lol
Terran used to have the highest requirements. But they no longer have vulture mines to micro, which removes alot of their technical difficulty. Ghosts and hellions take some skill, but they aren't in many staple builds. Most units are still ranged though, so positioning is still key.
Zerg are still at the bottom of the micro pole because of just how many macro options they have, but their micro translates to 'WWAARAHGH'
Protoss have more spellcasters this time around, so yeah, they take alot more micromanaging. I'm not sure if their base options are that much simpler than terran though
Yeah I didn't get that. Nerf the one thing about roaches that's actually interesting?
Secret Satan
I've found the key to overcoming Terran production problems is not to rely on the counter-his-units mindset so much as counter-his-movements. I'm starting to avoid the problem of tech-switching and needing five of every production building by using heavily mixed armies. My default play now is to head for MMM plus Thors with vikings available if necessary. I use hellions and ghosts quite a bit as well, but I never seem to get the higher-end air units. BCs, ravens, and banshees almost never enter my build queues.
Anyway, I'll be online for a bit if someone from PA wants to play. Username is DeadMenRise.rime.
Next match, I pull the same guy on scrap station. Big FML moment. I catch a scan of him JUST dropping his Stargate, get a goddamned wall of turrets up and my usual Viking armada, and he waltzes right in and gets plastered. Just leaves right then and there without a word. I love this game, but it really is going to be the death of me.
Just played a placement match against a slow protoss who decided to void ray rush me. Scouted this and turretted up. Then pushed after expanded with him just having expanded late. Beat his armies of full stalkers + 2 immortals with stimmed marauders and he just left the game.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
The slow and potentially stationary nature of siege tanks and thor supports the idea that positioning and scouting is very key. But any amount of MMM requires you to packs along very specifc counters (thors v mutas, vikings v colossus, tanks v banelings, banshess v tanks etc.) or else they can hit the dirt pretty hard. You always gotta know what they're bringing or else the terran can stumble.
Yea, i'd agree with that actually, the 50 gas for the hydras goes down a lot easier too.
They rock the party in TvT though. Sooo many games decided by tanks.