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[Greece & the Euro] Eurozone reform & EMF to get the go ahead.

245678

Posts

  • WMain00WMain00 Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.

    They've been rioting, to an insane degree. I don't care how unhappy you are as an American I just can't fathom the rationale behind widespread vandalism, arson and destruction of property. Nice "protest", really got the point across better than peaceful demonstration. I highly recommend this work of photo-journalism to get a sense of WTF has been going on over there.

    It's a difference between culture, economics and state. Greece is collapsing, America isn't. The people are facing a meltdown of literally everything; every service, every job, every hope. All thanks to greedy banks, politicians and yes-men. You should be thankful they don't have a head leader pushing them into Communism.

    WMain00 on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.

    They've been rioting, to an insane degree. I don't care how unhappy you are as an American I just can't fathom the rationale behind widespread vandalism, arson and destruction of property. Nice "protest", really got the point across better than peaceful demonstration. I highly recommend this work of photo-journalism to get a sense of WTF has been going on over there.

    That was over the police shooting dead a 15 year old boy, it's a lot different to the crisis they face now.

    Saint Madness on
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    I find it infuriating that rating agencies are basically consigning an entire country to fiscal hell for the next few years.

    A rating is just like a movie review. It doesn't have any basis in reality.

    This is so incorrect it's not even funny.

    Then CDO's are Triple-A. Right? Totally safe!

    Except they lied about those.

    They aren't lying about Greece now.

    If a rating agency gives something a low rating, that deseved something higher, then it'd be a great place to put your money. Because most investors would be selling-off that asset, you could pick it up cheap and make money after the fundamentals kick-in and force the price to where it should be.

    I'm just making a distinction between expectation (or a rating) and the fundamentals. In the short term a rating can cause change and volatility. Over time the fundamentals always win.

    Loklar on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.

    They've been rioting, to an insane degree. I don't care how unhappy you are as an American I just can't fathom the rationale behind widespread vandalism, arson and destruction of property. Nice "protest", really got the point across better than peaceful demonstration. I highly recommend this work of photo-journalism to get a sense of WTF has been going on over there.

    That was over the police shooting dead a 15 year old boy, it's a lot different to the crisis they face now.
    Yeah, the current crisis is a lot, lot worse.

    Man, Euros know how to riot. Though, I can't imagine people trying to pull shit like that on the NYPD or my hometown DC police. Anyone throwing molotov cocktails and other deadly weapons at police should be shot on sight.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    According to the Graun, the bailout looks to be €120bn over three years. The IMF is confident that the crisis can be resolved if action is taken quickly.

    Portugal has also accelerated its austerity measures.

    Saint Madness on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't care how much hope they lost or how angry they are, setting buildings, cars on fire and throwing molotov cocktails at police is abso-fucking-lutely insane. We have better ways to voice disapproval today than mob rioting.

    They apparently have an entire laundry list of things they're upset about, including police brutality, and THIS is what they think will help remedy that? I wouldn't fault the police for just opening fire on the crowd after these images:
    a08_17324009.jpg

    a09_17323793.jpg

    (Spoilered because the image:text ratio of this post looks bad to me, lol)

    Edit: Also I know it's with regards to a police shooting but I gave the article the benefit of the doubt regarding this line:
    Alexander's death appears to have been a catalyst, unleashing widespread Greek anger towards many issues - police mistreatment of protesters, unwelcome education reforms, economic stagnation, government corruption and more.

    Lanlaorn on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yea I'll never understand rioting for anarchy.

    Things will sure be better with no functioning government. Greece must have the most even tempered police force in history to not just start shooting into the crowd - they're reacting with less force than the cops did at the protesting of the RNC where there was zero violence, burning cars, etc

    override367 on
  • firewaterwordfirewaterword Satchitananda Pais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    For some reason I'm too ignorant to understand, and to pressed for time to properly research, Greece has made me loose a bunch of my precious dollars. For this reason I hope they sink into the sea.

    OK, not really. But jeeze.

    firewaterword on
    Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    I don't agree with the rioting either, it won't solve anything.

    But look at it from their perspective, they elected a new government who pulled this catastrophic situation out of the shadows and in the space of 6 months their finances have been wrenched from their own control and placed at the mercy of Brussels, Berlin and Wall Street. Their country is caving in around them and the international media is treating it like a gladiatorial show.

    Saint Madness on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order

    Robman on
  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    I find it infuriating that rating agencies are basically consigning an entire country to fiscal hell for the next few years.

    A rating is just like a movie review. It doesn't have any basis in reality.

    This is so incorrect it's not even funny.

    Then CDO's are Triple-A. Right? Totally safe!

    Except they lied about those.

    They aren't lying about Greece now.

    If a rating agency gives something a low rating, that deseved something higher, then it'd be a great place to put your money. Because most investors would be selling-off that asset, you could pick it up cheap and make money after the fundamentals kick-in and force the price to where it should be.

    I'm just making a distinction between expectation (or a rating) and the fundamentals. In the short term a rating can cause change and volatility. Over time the fundamentals always win.

    The "fundamentals" are that Greece lied about their deficit rating, and everyone believed them. It turns out their economy is in a much shittier state than people thought. The rating agencies downgraded their ratings to match reality.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.

    They've been rioting, to an insane degree. I don't care how unhappy you are as an American I just can't fathom the rationale behind widespread vandalism, arson and destruction of property. Nice "protest", really got the point across better than peaceful demonstration. I highly recommend this work of photo-journalism to get a sense of WTF has been going on over there.

    That was over the police shooting dead a 15 year old boy, it's a lot different to the crisis they face now.
    Yeah, the current crisis is a lot, lot worse.

    Man, Euros know how to riot. Though, I can't imagine people trying to pull shit like that on the NYPD or my hometown DC police. Anyone throwing molotov cocktails and other deadly weapons at police should be shot on sight.

    Don't you have riots all the time in America?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States#2000

    Also, I'm guessing it's sort of hard to shoot at someone throwing a molotov cocktail when he is somewhere in a crowd of hundreds.

    DarkCrawler on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Yea I'll never understand rioting for anarchy.

    Things will sure be better with no functioning government. Greece must have the most even tempered police force in history to not just start shooting into the crowd - they're reacting with less force than the cops did at the protesting of the RNC where there was zero violence, burning cars, etc

    Look at the Iran situation - shooting protesters and rioters just gives them martyrs to rally around.

    And generally, they don't issue riot police firearms for the very reason that they want the police to rely on their shields and clubs rather then pulling a sidearm or having their sidearm stolen in a struggle.

    Robman on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order

    You're being hyperbolic while calling someone a goose. Cool.

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order
    Fine. Propose a solution that will fix the problem, other than austerity measures and fiscal responsibility.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Besides those photos are pretty tame as far as uprisings go

    Check out what real strife looks like

    Robman on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order
    Fine. Propose a solution that will fix the problem, other than austerity measures and fiscal responsibility.

    Yeah how about not using the usual IMF (known as the Infant Mortality Fund for very good reasons) tactics.

    Robman on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order
    Fine. Propose a solution that will fix the problem, other than austerity measures and fiscal responsibility.

    Yeah how about not using the usual IMF (known as the Infant Mortality Fund for very good reasons) tactics.
    So, you've told us what solution not to use. Great. Now, propose something that will fix the problem.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Protein ShakesProtein Shakes __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2010
    Just because someone points out that one of the possible solutions (IMF) is a fucking stupid idea does not mean they have to come up with an alternative solution.

    Protein Shakes on
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, if my mom met the following criteria... I'd be in favor if waterboarding her.
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    Loklar wrote: »
    I find it infuriating that rating agencies are basically consigning an entire country to fiscal hell for the next few years.

    A rating is just like a movie review. It doesn't have any basis in reality.

    This is so incorrect it's not even funny.

    Then CDO's are Triple-A. Right? Totally safe!

    Except they lied about those.

    They aren't lying about Greece now.

    If a rating agency gives something a low rating, that deseved something higher, then it'd be a great place to put your money. Because most investors would be selling-off that asset, you could pick it up cheap and make money after the fundamentals kick-in and force the price to where it should be.

    I'm just making a distinction between expectation (or a rating) and the fundamentals. In the short term a rating can cause change and volatility. Over time the fundamentals always win.

    The "fundamentals" are that Greece lied about their deficit rating, and everyone believed them. It turns out their economy is in a much shittier state than people thought. The rating agencies downgraded their ratings to match reality.

    Right.

    Greece isn't screwed because of a rating. It's screwed because it spent beyond it's means for a long long time. The down-grade of it's rating is just an expectation. A correct expectation (probably) but it's not going to make Greek business suddenly effecient, or Japanese consumers eat more olives from Greece, or shrink their public-sector.

    Consider this. What if Greece is still lieing about it's debt and the crisis is still worse than we realize. In that case then Greek-Debt wasn't downgraded enough!

    It's just a review. A very influential review, but a review none the less.

    Loklar on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    You guys really need to watch your language, you're referring to nation-states like people and glossing over things like massive cuts to social support with phrases like "painful diet".

    Of course people are going to riot instead of starving.
    Their over-reliance on social support is one of the reasons why Greece is in the mess it's in. Its bloated public sector is unsustainable.

    People in Greece can riot all they want, or they can be grownups and realize that there is no money to pay for their social programs.

    Yes people should be grown-ups and resign themselves to starvation and ruin because some old white men played funny money

    You truly are a silly goose of the highest order
    Fine. Propose a solution that will fix the problem, other than austerity measures and fiscal responsibility.

    Yeah how about not using the usual IMF (known as the Infant Mortality Fund for very good reasons) tactics.
    So, you've told us what solution not to use. Great. Now, propose something that will fix the problem.

    Yeah no. That's the job of the EU and the Greek government. It's also a handy tactic to try and put yourself on the offensive rather then responding to allegations that your opinions are absolutely vile.

    Robman on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Don't you have riots all the time in America?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ed_States#2000

    Also, I'm guessing it's sort of hard to shoot at someone throwing a molotov cocktail when he is somewhere in a crowd of hundreds.

    I think there's a difference between unruly crowds using their fists and committing arson. Although both are called "riots" there are several orders of magnitude difference in there. The closest thing I can think of in the US is Detroit with it's "Devil's Night" craziness, but Detroit is pretty atypically shitty.

    Also, Robman your link doesn't work.

    Lanlaorn on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Greeks seem to riot ALOT.

    It's like the countries passtime or something.

    shryke on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Living in a country that has taken such austerity measures (and with more on the way), I can tell you they are fucking murderous.

    Sadly however, the markets have bee pleased by the amount of suffering that out government has visited upon the public so for now we've been granted a repreive.

    Saint Madness on
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Austerity measures and tax hikes to cut the deficit would knock Greece back into a recession in the current state of the world. Much of its population would lose government social support at the same time jobs are disappearing from the country. That is not the kind of situation you want to create. Greece's debt needs to be financed for the near future until the world economy picks up again. Let Greece's debt ride for half a decade or so, then it will be safer to implement these kinds of actions.

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    Abdhyius on
    ftOqU21.png
  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    It is fun to watch something blow up. Similarly, even though it would be a terrible thing, seeing the US break up would be entertaining too (while being incredibly uncomfortable since I live in it).

    Jephery on
    }
    "Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »

    Yeah how about not using the usual IMF (known as the Infant Mortality Fund for very good reasons) tactics.
    So, you've told us what solution not to use. Great. Now, propose something that will fix the problem.

    Yeah no. That's the job of the EU and the Greek government. It's also a handy tactic to try and put yourself on the offensive rather then responding to allegations that your opinions are absolutely vile.

    They may be "vile" but it's also un-avoidable. Like gravity.

    If your country grows 100 bushels of food and nothing else, then all you get to eat is 100 bushels of food.

    Borrowing from your neighbour may allow you to eat 150 bushels for a few years, but they have to put up with only have 50 bushels for their society. Eventually they'll stop lending it to you.

    Someway, somehow Greece needs to get all of it's government's + citizen's expenses below the total value of what the Government + Citizens produce. There is no other way.

    Loklar on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    Good for you?

    Robman on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    Lanlaorn on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Living in a country that has taken such austerity measures (and with more on the way), I can tell you they are fucking murderous.

    Sadly however, the markets have bee pleased by the amount of suffering that out government has visited upon the public so for now we've been granted a repreive.

    Can you expand on how the austerity measures in Ireland have impacted you?

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Loklar wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Robman wrote: »

    Yeah how about not using the usual IMF (known as the Infant Mortality Fund for very good reasons) tactics.
    So, you've told us what solution not to use. Great. Now, propose something that will fix the problem.

    Yeah no. That's the job of the EU and the Greek government. It's also a handy tactic to try and put yourself on the offensive rather then responding to allegations that your opinions are absolutely vile.

    They may be "vile" but it's also un-avoidable. Like gravity.

    If your country grows 100 bushels of food and nothing else, then all you get to eat is 100 bushels of food.

    Borrowing from your neighbour may allow you to eat 150 bushels for a few years, but they have to put up with only have 50 bushels for their society. Eventually they'll stop lending it to you.

    Someway, somehow Greece needs to get all of it's government's + citizen's expenses below the total value of what the Government + Citizens produce. There is no other way.

    Well there's a modest proposal to fix the problem if there ever was one.

    Robman on
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    I would vastly prefer it if it had remained as a stricly economical union. Then we could have avoided bullshit like the Data Retention Directive

    plus, I don't get the feeling that Brussels is run by the people at all.

    Abdhyius on
    ftOqU21.png
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    I would vastly prefer it if it had remained as a stricly economical union. Then we could have avoided bullshit like the Data Retention Directive

    plus, I don't get the feeling that Brussels is run by the people at all.

    Yeah how about those best in the world environmental protection laws

    Clearly what a government not run by the people would enact

    Robman on
  • AbdhyiusAbdhyius Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    I would vastly prefer it if it had remained as a stricly economical union. Then we could have avoided bullshit like the Data Retention Directive

    plus, I don't get the feeling that Brussels is run by the people at all.

    Yeah how about those best in the world environmental protection laws

    Clearly what a government not run by the people would enact

    Of course not, because everything the EU does is horrible now

    Abdhyius on
    ftOqU21.png
  • LoklarLoklar Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    I would vastly prefer it if it had remained as a stricly economical union. Then we could have avoided bullshit like the Data Retention Directive

    plus, I don't get the feeling that Brussels is run by the people at all.

    Yeah how about those best in the world environmental protection laws

    Clearly what a government not run by the people would enact

    These governments are in deficit. Environmental protection is an expenditure. Effectively that means that the EU is borrowing money from China (or another creditor nation) to pay for it's strict environment laws. Which is madness.

    Think about that for a second. Environmental protection drives up the cost for companies to produce things, which means the government gets less taxes and companies don't make as much income. All of this is fine if the nation is running a surplus. But if the government is running a deficit then those same protections are effectively paid-for by borrowing from another institution, usually a country.

    China is one of the biggest creditor nations in the world right now. So it's kinda like they are paying for those environmental standards. How do they do it? By overworking their workers, denying their people rights and burning coal.

    I'm not against environmental standards. I'm against deficits. And if you have to borrow Chinese money to avoid putting some smog into the air, that doesn't make any sense because China has that money because they are putting lots of smog into the air. It's madness.

    Loklar on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User
    edited April 2010
    Abdhyius wrote: »
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Personally hoping for this to dismantle something permanently. The eurozone, the EU, will to join the EU, whatever

    To what end? I like the idea of the EU, although they should have gone with The United States of Europe, IMO.

    I would vastly prefer it if it had remained as a stricly economical union. Then we could have avoided bullshit like the Data Retention Directive

    plus, I don't get the feeling that Brussels is run by the people at all.

    The Parliament, the Consilium and the EU Council are all elected, so yes Brussels is run by the people.

    Saint Madness on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    You know everything I've heard about tough environmental regulations suggests that they actually net increase productivity, due to the increased need for innovation and efficiency

    And you can't really compare anyone to China - China artificially keeps their currency undervalued, and really

    welp

    http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

    Yay china?

    Robman on
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    You know everything I've heard about tough environmental regulations suggests that they actually net increase productivity, due to the increased need for innovation and efficiency

    And you can't really compare anyone to China - China artificially keeps their currency undervalued, and really

    welp

    http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

    Yay china?

    Those are some eerily beautiful photographs. Know anywhere they're available in higher res, or were you just googling for photos?

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
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