No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Perpetual on
0
Options
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
So is your only concern regarding this topic berating people who aren't donating money right this moment?
No, my only concern at this moment is to come up with something productive, rather than going off in circle-jerks about how mad I am at BP and how wrong it is to privatize profit and socialize risk and all that other ultra-liberal crap.
I am a pragmatist, so I focus on practical things. A discussion like this is meaningless to me if:
a) there is nothing new to learn out of it (as is the case here, definitely)
b) nothing constructive comes out of it with regards to an immediate solution and damage control
So, thanks to your link, I can sleep happily now. I'm sure tomorrow when I wake up this thread will be full of even more rage, and little/no action - which I won't find surprising honestly.
Good night!
you know, as bad as this is, it does provide a golden opportunity to make political changes like tightening regulation over the oil companies. If we wait until the crisis has passed to do any of that "ultra-liberal crap", people just won't be motivated enough to do that. For reference, look at the financial crisis- everyone was gung-ho about instituting more regulations on the financial industry, but now it looks like very little is going to happen, because we waited too long.
I want this to be the crisis that finally motivates us to make a real effort, as a nation, to move away from oil dependance.
I couldn't agree more. There's nothing liberal about it. Liberal, as a word, is something that allows for more freedom. We gave BP too much freedom and it abused it, it's time we take that freedom back.
In this case, one person shits their pants and everyone wears diapers, however, we have multiple examples of oil spills and so it's the entire collective group.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
Taylor described some areas containing crude oil looking like "chocolate milk."
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
And even if the corporation itself was punished, the people who made the decisions would walk away with tens of millions.
Yup. Too bad you can't dredge oil out of water with golden parachutes.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
0
Options
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
how's this for a solution: make BP pay all the out of work fisherman to clean up the beaches.
That's part of the plan, as well as a clause in their contract that says that they can't hold BP liable for any damages to their livelihood. Because that's already happening.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
Until then we'll go ahead and discuss this here. Cause it's not really affecting it either way.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
I've already sent an e-mail to my representative and my two senators. I stay very engaged! I sort of lumped it together with financial reform. It was AWESOME! Sometimes you can get e-mails back from secretaries claiming to be them!
Up here in Ohio though, we're lucky. We only have to worry about primal things like storms and blizzards. No earthquakes, no oil spills, no hurricanes, just tornadoes and maybe drought now and then.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
I'm going to, actually.
Because it's probably the most effective option within the boundaries of legality unlike, say, systematically assassinating every member of BP's board of governance.
Oh well, a lad can fantasize, can't he?
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
For the record, I should mention that I really like fish.
I'm amazed at how many people I meet in their mid-20s who have never even eaten shrimp in their entire lives.
Like seriously, WTF?
I love me some mussels. I can't wait to see the price of shrimp in the coming weeks skyrocket!
Even more, I believe there is a huge abundance of snapper that is pretty much supplying most of the country, and it's spawning season for them, and that could be threatened. Seriously, an entire groups of gulf-only seafood could be threatened here. This is the most ridiculously irresponsible thing to happen in a while.
No one is saying we shouldn't hold them accountable. But, since their mess fucked up part of my country, I feel compelled to help. It's okay if you don't, but I'm sure stomping your foot on the ground and saying they should clean up their own mess is not going to make you look too mature.
Re: quid. Thanks for the link, I wrote a check for 100 bucks, will send tomorrow. I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
The problem is that there's zero confidence that BP will be adequately punished for this.
If I had any faith at all in my government not to deliver a token sanction on BP while continuing to offer them subsidies and drilling opportunities year after year, I'd say, "Okay, sure, let's get this mess cleaned up now and sort out blame later." Unfortunately, it feels far too much like saying that is really saying, "Let's get this mess cleaned up now, and let BP off the hook."
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
I've already sent an e-mail to my representative and my two senators. I stay very engaged! I sort of lumped it together with financial reform. It was AWESOME! Sometimes you can get e-mails back from secretaries claiming to be them!
Or even for real letters!
Up here in Ohio though, we're lucky. We only have to worry about primal things like storms and blizzards. No earthquakes, no oil spills, no hurricanes, just tornadoes and maybe drought now and then.
Also complete economic death. And formerly burning rivers. Though less of the latter in Michigan.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Then they should just say "Never drill for oil in the ocean" because there is no 100%. Its a mechanical system, operating at sea, tapping into a system we have no control over. The risk will always be > 0.
Well, maybe that is what they're saying. I don't necessarily agree, but my point is that that's a different argument. Or that there are basically two sides engaged in two different arguments right now, and there's a breakdown in understanding.
When a company buys a product from a vendor, in this case, the BOP, they should have tested it rigorously.
I work at an industry where we sell services and we buy products compatible with that service from manufacturers and sell it to consumers. While the manufacturers undergo testing, we also have strict testing that we do to the product to make certain it meets our standards, and if so, we sell it.
Just because the manufacturer says something does not mean you do not additionally test it. Not to mention that you ignored the fact that they should have had routine checkups on this as well. And again, this one is a two-fold problem, current laws, and BP's lack of due diligence to adequately measure, on a regular basis, the functions of their safety mechanism. A concern you do not apparently refute.
Uh, I think what tinwhiskers was saying was that even if tested, it would have passed the test. It wasn't the device that was flawed; it was the specifications, in so far as even if built perfectly such that it passed all tests, the device still would have failed due to the dissimilarity between the assumed design conditions/the test conditions and the actual conditions.
You most definitely can simulate the exact conditions 5000 feet below the ocean. They can simulate pressures in the Marianas Trench... Not to mention, they should have routinely checked it as well.
(ignoring margins)
Say specs say it must hold back oil at 15,000 PSI. Its designed to hold back oil at 15,500 PSI. They test it at 15,500 PSI every day and it passes. If the oil pressure spikes to 17,500 PSI will it hold?
You can't know, It probably wont. And testing it at 15,500 PSI 100 times a day won't make it hold.
tinwhiskers on
0
Options
DrakeEdgelord TrashBelow the ecliptic plane.Registered Userregular
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
Taylor described some areas containing crude oil looking like "chocolate milk."
Then they should just say "Never drill for oil in the ocean" because there is no 100%. Its a mechanical system, operating at sea, tapping into a system we have no control over. The risk will always be > 0.
Well, maybe that is what they're saying. I don't necessarily agree, but my point is that that's a different argument. Or that there are basically two sides engaged in two different arguments right now, and there's a breakdown in understanding.
When a company buys a product from a vendor, in this case, the BOP, they should have tested it rigorously.
I work at an industry where we sell services and we buy products compatible with that service from manufacturers and sell it to consumers. While the manufacturers undergo testing, we also have strict testing that we do to the product to make certain it meets our standards, and if so, we sell it.
Just because the manufacturer says something does not mean you do not additionally test it. Not to mention that you ignored the fact that they should have had routine checkups on this as well. And again, this one is a two-fold problem, current laws, and BP's lack of due diligence to adequately measure, on a regular basis, the functions of their safety mechanism. A concern you do not apparently refute.
Uh, I think what tinwhiskers was saying was that even if tested, it would have passed the test. It wasn't the device that was flawed; it was the specifications, in so far as even if built perfectly such that it passed all tests, the device still would have failed due to the dissimilarity between the assumed design conditions/the test conditions and the actual conditions.
You most definitely can simulate the exact conditions 5000 feet below the ocean. They can simulate pressures in the Marianas Trench... Not to mention, they should have routinely checked it as well.
(ignoring margins)
Say specs say it must hold back oil at 15,000 PSI. Its designed to hold back oil at 15,500 PSI. They test it at 15,500 PSI every day and it passes. If the oil pressure spikes to 17,500 PSI will it hold?
You can't know, It probably wont. And testing it at 15,500 PSI 100 times a day won't make it hold.
And I completely concede that point. But, they didn't test it in the first place, and they definitely should have, and they should also test for those sorts of strains to see the maximum capacity it can hold and for how long. Those are standard tests for quality that any manufacture makes on any product. Look at the automobile industry, the tests they put cars through is relentless. Again, I'm not saying accidents are unavoidable, but there were definitely things that could have been done to prevent this. They could have tested this 3 months ago as part of a routine checkup and found it did not work. The problem is, they never tested it themselves, and they never checked it routinely more than once every 3 years as required by law. It's just absurd. Again, not saying accidents can't happen, but I completely think that this was 100% avoidable.
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
Taylor described some areas containing crude oil looking like "chocolate milk."
Is this supposed to make some kind of point?
Yeah, the point is do not expect any understanding from someone who compares an oil spill to chocolate milk.
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
Taylor described some areas containing crude oil looking like "chocolate milk."
Is this supposed to make some kind of point?
We should clearly go drink up the oil out of the ocean. Chocolate milk and marshmallows.
Why are we taking anything a politician with probably no background in the area with any more trust than random hearsay on the internet? At least news usually does basic factchecking.
Why are we taking anything a politician with probably no background in the area with any more trust than random hearsay on the internet? At least news usually does basic factchecking.
For some reason, we expect elected officials to be somewhat intelligent, and if they are not well versed in the subject matter at hand, that they would at least do some research. I'm always baffled at how stupid elected officials often are.
This guy seems to think that the spill isn't that bad and he thinks it will all evaporate. Errr yea.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
Taylor described some areas containing crude oil looking like "chocolate milk."
Is this supposed to make some kind of point?
We should clearly go drink up the oil out of the ocean. Chocolate milk and marshmallows.
How do these people get elected?
Big corporations give them lots and lots of money to run lots of advertisements about how awesome they are. Then they deregulate the industries that gave them lots and lots of money and finally minimize the destruction the aforementioned big corporation cause with their new found free market powers, thus ensuring the elected official further donations.
And seeing this, citizens become less engaged thus making it cheaper for said corporations to afford buying politicians in the future.
It's a pretty neat system!
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
0
Options
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Then they should just say "Never drill for oil in the ocean" because there is no 100%. Its a mechanical system, operating at sea, tapping into a system we have no control over. The risk will always be > 0.
Well, maybe that is what they're saying. I don't necessarily agree, but my point is that that's a different argument. Or that there are basically two sides engaged in two different arguments right now, and there's a breakdown in understanding.
When a company buys a product from a vendor, in this case, the BOP, they should have tested it rigorously.
I work at an industry where we sell services and we buy products compatible with that service from manufacturers and sell it to consumers. While the manufacturers undergo testing, we also have strict testing that we do to the product to make certain it meets our standards, and if so, we sell it.
Just because the manufacturer says something does not mean you do not additionally test it. Not to mention that you ignored the fact that they should have had routine checkups on this as well. And again, this one is a two-fold problem, current laws, and BP's lack of due diligence to adequately measure, on a regular basis, the functions of their safety mechanism. A concern you do not apparently refute.
Uh, I think what tinwhiskers was saying was that even if tested, it would have passed the test. It wasn't the device that was flawed; it was the specifications, in so far as even if built perfectly such that it passed all tests, the device still would have failed due to the dissimilarity between the assumed design conditions/the test conditions and the actual conditions.
You most definitely can simulate the exact conditions 5000 feet below the ocean. They can simulate pressures in the Marianas Trench... Not to mention, they should have routinely checked it as well.
(ignoring margins)
Say specs say it must hold back oil at 15,000 PSI. Its designed to hold back oil at 15,500 PSI. They test it at 15,500 PSI every day and it passes. If the oil pressure spikes to 17,500 PSI will it hold?
You can't know, It probably wont. And testing it at 15,500 PSI 100 times a day won't make it hold.
Which (a) doesn't excuse not having a disaster mitigation plan and resources in place if you can't know that your design tolerances are actually resonable, and (b) there's no reason the maximum theoretical pressure of an oil-well can't be determined, and design tolerances placed far beyond this. The oil isn't physically smashing through rock and gushing into the ocean on its own here. We had to drill some amount of feet of seabed to reach it, and rock types and tensile strengths are well known...chiefly because of the oil-industry.
EDIT: Of additional note - the oil is coming out at some pressure in the first place and BOPs were developed to eliminate the problem of oil gushing. There should be a wealth of data on the average spike pressure increases. But basic physics tells us there's an upper limit to what we could encounter given the extensive mapping done of oil reservoirs before they're drilled.
electricitylikesme on
0
Options
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
I don't know the answer to your question though. I don't expect anything back honestly, but that's not my concern at the moment.
So is your only concern regarding this topic berating people who aren't donating money right this moment?
No, my only concern at this moment is to come up with something productive, rather than going off in circle-jerks about how mad I am at BP and how wrong it is to privatize profit and socialize risk and all that other ultra-liberal crap.
I am a pragmatist, so I focus on practical things. A discussion like this is meaningless to me if:
a) there is nothing new to learn out of it (as is the case here, definitely)
b) nothing constructive comes out of it with regards to an immediate solution and damage control
So, thanks to your link, I can sleep happily now. I'm sure tomorrow when I wake up this thread will be full of even more rage, and little/no action - which I won't find surprising honestly.
Good night!
You're not a pragmatist. You're an apologist. And the history of your posts on this thread makes that abundantly clear.
We keep on going down the same fucking cycle:
Corporation X Co. decides to do RISKY_SHIT because it will make them lots of money, even though the risks are severe.
RISKY_SHIT blows up, fucking everyone over.
The populace, feeling the effects of RISKY_SHIT blowing up, demand that X Co. be held accountable and made to fix their mistake.
Apologists like you come in and argue that that how was X Co supposed to know that their conduct with regards to RISKY_SHIT was so risky (of course, ignoring the efforts of X Co to defang regulations that would have prevented them from doing RISKY_SHIT), and anyway, the situation is bad now, so we, not X Co., need to fix it.
We, trying to be "adults" (read: not learning our lesson from the LAST bait and switch), agree, and so devote our support to fix X Co.'s mistake.
After we've begun fixing things, we realize that, hey, this is X Co.'s fuckup - why aren't they paying for it? And so we pursue damages.
And then you come back, now arguing that things are getting fixed, we need to leave things in the past and look to the future. That demanding that X Co.be held accountable would just make things ugly.
And thus X Co. keeps the money, we get the bill, and the endless waltz continues.
At some point, we have to break the cycle, or corporations will continue to privatize profits, and socialize costs.
KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited May 2010
I gotta agree Perpetual. You're coming off as 'no one don't worry about BP or lax regulation or what caused this disaster, just fix what's happened and move on'!
That's not pragmatic, that's sweeping shit under the rug.
Then they should just say "Never drill for oil in the ocean" because there is no 100%. Its a mechanical system, operating at sea, tapping into a system we have no control over. The risk will always be > 0.
Well, maybe that is what they're saying. I don't necessarily agree, but my point is that that's a different argument. Or that there are basically two sides engaged in two different arguments right now, and there's a breakdown in understanding.
When a company buys a product from a vendor, in this case, the BOP, they should have tested it rigorously.
I work at an industry where we sell services and we buy products compatible with that service from manufacturers and sell it to consumers. While the manufacturers undergo testing, we also have strict testing that we do to the product to make certain it meets our standards, and if so, we sell it.
Just because the manufacturer says something does not mean you do not additionally test it. Not to mention that you ignored the fact that they should have had routine checkups on this as well. And again, this one is a two-fold problem, current laws, and BP's lack of due diligence to adequately measure, on a regular basis, the functions of their safety mechanism. A concern you do not apparently refute.
Uh, I think what tinwhiskers was saying was that even if tested, it would have passed the test. It wasn't the device that was flawed; it was the specifications, in so far as even if built perfectly such that it passed all tests, the device still would have failed due to the dissimilarity between the assumed design conditions/the test conditions and the actual conditions.
You most definitely can simulate the exact conditions 5000 feet below the ocean. They can simulate pressures in the Marianas Trench... Not to mention, they should have routinely checked it as well.
(ignoring margins)
Say specs say it must hold back oil at 15,000 PSI. Its designed to hold back oil at 15,500 PSI. They test it at 15,500 PSI every day and it passes. If the oil pressure spikes to 17,500 PSI will it hold?
You can't know, It probably wont. And testing it at 15,500 PSI 100 times a day won't make it hold.
Yes.
This is basic engineering for something that can go catastrophically wrong, you are supposed to design well in excess of expected stresses, failing that you should have a contingency plan if things go wrong.
You should also regularly inspect it.
They don't design nuclear reactors to be able to survive a train crashing into the building because they think it is a likely occurrence.
The level of childishness in this thread amazes me.
People are already volunteering to help. But apparently you can't be fucked enough to donate a few bucks to the recovery efforts, because you're mad at BP.
Bravo guys, bravo!
You still have internet access, why haven't you donated everything you own to help solve this disaster? I imagine you ate several full meals some hungry child somewhere could have eaten.
I gotta agree Perpetual. You're coming off as 'no one don't worry about BP or lax regulation or what caused this disaster, just fix what's happened and move on'!
That's not pragmatic, that's sweeping shit under the rug.
I think perpetual is sort of being cornered in to taking an exagerated stance because of the extent of the hatred being spewed in this thread.
Which is, by the way, the reason we didn't have proper regulations in the first place. The people who SHOULD have been making sure we had regulations on offshore drilling were too busy insisting that offshore drilling is bad to step up and make a compromise on "okay, it's not great, but if we're going to have it, we need to at least have these rules."
Turning shit binary hurts everyone, and BOTH SIDES are responsible for shit turning binary.
I gotta agree Perpetual. You're coming off as 'no one don't worry about BP or lax regulation or what caused this disaster, just fix what's happened and move on'!
That's not pragmatic, that's sweeping shit under the rug.
I think perpetual is sort of being cornered in to taking an exagerated stance because of the extent of the hatred being spewed in this thread.
Which is, by the way, the reason we didn't have proper regulations in the first place. The people who SHOULD have been making sure we had regulations on offshore drilling were too busy insisting that offshore drilling is bad to step up and make a compromise on "okay, it's not great, but if we're going to have it, we need to at least have these rules."
Turning shit binary hurts everyone, and BOTH SIDES are responsible for shit turning binary.
Posts
What will happen will happen, Feral.
Regardless of what happens with BP, I just want to help make the situation better.
I love how he doesn't understand that the bulk of the oil is a massive cloud that is still beneath the surface. Sure, the lighter components of the crude have reached the surface first, and a lot of that is stuff that can evaporate. But the vast majority of the oil still hasn't surfaced yet.
Or maybe he does know that and he's just evil.
there are plenty of low probability chain reactions that could, sure.
hell, no one should ever have kids, by your logic, because those kids might cause bad shit
I couldn't agree more. There's nothing liberal about it. Liberal, as a word, is something that allows for more freedom. We gave BP too much freedom and it abused it, it's time we take that freedom back.
In this case, one person shits their pants and everyone wears diapers, however, we have multiple examples of oil spills and so it's the entire collective group.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Whereas us liberal types have sensed a pattern, and think something should be done about it.
Yup. Too bad you can't dredge oil out of water with golden parachutes.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
That's part of the plan, as well as a clause in their contract that says that they can't hold BP liable for any damages to their livelihood. Because that's already happening.
Okay, you focus on that then. Write to your local officials/congresspeople tomorrow morning.
Until then we'll go ahead and discuss this here. Cause it's not really affecting it either way.
I've already sent an e-mail to my representative and my two senators. I stay very engaged!
Up here in Ohio though, we're lucky. We only have to worry about primal things like storms and blizzards. No earthquakes, no oil spills, no hurricanes, just tornadoes and maybe drought now and then.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
I'm going to, actually.
Because it's probably the most effective option within the boundaries of legality unlike, say, systematically assassinating every member of BP's board of governance.
Oh well, a lad can fantasize, can't he?
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I'm amazed at how many people I meet in their mid-20s who have never even eaten shrimp in their entire lives.
Like seriously, WTF?
I love me some mussels. I can't wait to see the price of shrimp in the coming weeks skyrocket!
Even more, I believe there is a huge abundance of snapper that is pretty much supplying most of the country, and it's spawning season for them, and that could be threatened. Seriously, an entire groups of gulf-only seafood could be threatened here. This is the most ridiculously irresponsible thing to happen in a while.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Or even for real letters!
Also complete economic death. And formerly burning rivers. Though less of the latter in Michigan.
I didn't try seafood until last year. I'm 23.
I have still not tried "fish", just shellfish. I wasn't impressed by crab or shrimp, though.
(ignoring margins)
Say specs say it must hold back oil at 15,000 PSI. Its designed to hold back oil at 15,500 PSI. They test it at 15,500 PSI every day and it passes. If the oil pressure spikes to 17,500 PSI will it hold?
You can't know, It probably wont. And testing it at 15,500 PSI 100 times a day won't make it hold.
Is this supposed to make some kind of point?
And I completely concede that point. But, they didn't test it in the first place, and they definitely should have, and they should also test for those sorts of strains to see the maximum capacity it can hold and for how long. Those are standard tests for quality that any manufacture makes on any product. Look at the automobile industry, the tests they put cars through is relentless. Again, I'm not saying accidents are unavoidable, but there were definitely things that could have been done to prevent this. They could have tested this 3 months ago as part of a routine checkup and found it did not work. The problem is, they never tested it themselves, and they never checked it routinely more than once every 3 years as required by law. It's just absurd. Again, not saying accidents can't happen, but I completely think that this was 100% avoidable.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
Yeah, the point is do not expect any understanding from someone who compares an oil spill to chocolate milk.
This is the article I quoted out of:
http://blog.gulflive.com/mississippi-press-news/2010/05/taylor_says_oil_spill_in_gulf_of_mexico_is_not_armageddon.html
We should clearly go drink up the oil out of the ocean. Chocolate milk and marshmallows.
How do these people get elected?
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
For some reason, we expect elected officials to be somewhat intelligent, and if they are not well versed in the subject matter at hand, that they would at least do some research. I'm always baffled at how stupid elected officials often are.
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
I turned allergic to shrip/crab/lobster/crawfish(i assume) when I was 17. I've been considering trying oral desensitization, so i can eat them again.
Big corporations give them lots and lots of money to run lots of advertisements about how awesome they are. Then they deregulate the industries that gave them lots and lots of money and finally minimize the destruction the aforementioned big corporation cause with their new found free market powers, thus ensuring the elected official further donations.
And seeing this, citizens become less engaged thus making it cheaper for said corporations to afford buying politicians in the future.
It's a pretty neat system!
I'm referring to people who aren't allergic.
Usually white.
Which (a) doesn't excuse not having a disaster mitigation plan and resources in place if you can't know that your design tolerances are actually resonable, and (b) there's no reason the maximum theoretical pressure of an oil-well can't be determined, and design tolerances placed far beyond this. The oil isn't physically smashing through rock and gushing into the ocean on its own here. We had to drill some amount of feet of seabed to reach it, and rock types and tensile strengths are well known...chiefly because of the oil-industry.
EDIT: Of additional note - the oil is coming out at some pressure in the first place and BOPs were developed to eliminate the problem of oil gushing. There should be a wealth of data on the average spike pressure increases. But basic physics tells us there's an upper limit to what we could encounter given the extensive mapping done of oil reservoirs before they're drilled.
They're yummy and nutritious?
Um they cause cancer and birth defects now, FYI.
And have traces of mercury! FTWx2
3DSFF: 5026-4429-6577
You're not a pragmatist. You're an apologist. And the history of your posts on this thread makes that abundantly clear.
We keep on going down the same fucking cycle:
At some point, we have to break the cycle, or corporations will continue to privatize profits, and socialize costs.
That's not pragmatic, that's sweeping shit under the rug.
Yes.
This is basic engineering for something that can go catastrophically wrong, you are supposed to design well in excess of expected stresses, failing that you should have a contingency plan if things go wrong.
You should also regularly inspect it.
They don't design nuclear reactors to be able to survive a train crashing into the building because they think it is a likely occurrence.
You still have internet access, why haven't you donated everything you own to help solve this disaster? I imagine you ate several full meals some hungry child somewhere could have eaten.
Please lets not get into the guilt trip game
I think perpetual is sort of being cornered in to taking an exagerated stance because of the extent of the hatred being spewed in this thread.
Which is, by the way, the reason we didn't have proper regulations in the first place. The people who SHOULD have been making sure we had regulations on offshore drilling were too busy insisting that offshore drilling is bad to step up and make a compromise on "okay, it's not great, but if we're going to have it, we need to at least have these rules."
Turning shit binary hurts everyone, and BOTH SIDES are responsible for shit turning binary.
Right, because we're far too busy with the blame game...
And no, that's not a complement.