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[Gulf Coast Oil]: Spill, Baby Spill. Volunteer Info at the top of OP

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    SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    BBC is reporting that the Top Kill has worked.

    I'd wait for more confirmation before cheering.

    SteevL on
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I hope it did. We almost ran out of thread.

    Tofystedeth on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Bets on how long it'll take the media to get back to pretty white girls?

    MKR on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I hope it did. We almost ran out of thread.

    :lol:

    Arch on
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    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    MKR wrote: »
    Bets on how long it'll take the media to get back to pretty white girls?

    As soon as possible?

    Also... pleasepleasepleaseplease work.

    Drake on
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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Fuck, I really hope that shit worked. I'm not looking forward to how fucked our economy here in Florida will be once the oil reaches us.

    wwtMask on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Salazar is currently talking to the House subcommittee on the environmental impact of the spill on CNN's video links, and there's some other lawyer in another committee talking on the legal liability (it sounded so boring listening to him for a few minutes).

    Aegis on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Fuck, I really hope that shit worked. I'm not looking forward to how fucked our economy here in Florida will be once the oil reaches us.

    There's this Dutch company that got a guy in to the town hall thing who told them about a platform that sucks up a ton of oil. Apparently it never made it to the top.

    But if they get it in and it performs as claimed, I don't think the oil will go that far.

    MKR on
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    DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I think the spill will continue until we get this to 100 pages. Locked thread = Clogged pipe.

    Deebaser on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Oh hey, that $75 million cap on economic damage costs? Doesn't apply in cases of gross negligence and a few other exceptions. So beyond the fact that BP has signed statements with Salazar and Napolitano that they won't be held to the cap, one could still otherwise likely get them to pay more than the cap if it turns out that there was gross negligence involved.

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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Liz Birnbaum (Head of MMS) has apparently resigned from the MMS (according to Salazar) or fired by Obama (according to ABS).

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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    MMS is probably going to cease to exist once this is all over. Someone has to take the fall, and the MMS has done a fine job of setting themselves up as scapegoats. Probably doesn't hurt that they are at least tangentially at fault here.

    wwtMask on
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    SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Pages late, but this is the first chance I've had to reply since I made my last post.
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    BubbaT, I'm sorry, but the Alaska spill was in no way something that was OK or justifiable. (side note edit: I'm going to say this later, but let me say it now: I agree with you otherwise! This needs attention!) I know what you're saying, we shouldn't be afraid because the test was a success - but it wasn't. In my opinion, while a couple thousand barrels a day isn't a huge deal comparatively speaking, this NEVER should have happened.

    First off, they didn't realize the battery power would be insufficient? Uh, the amount of power needed to close a valve can be calculated and you should know whether the battery is enough. Unacceptable.

    Second of all, the tank that overflowed has a capacity of over 100k barrels. Were they just sitting there with their thumbs up their asses while the tank filled and filled and the valve didn't close? Unacceptable.

    Thirdly, this was supposed to be a controlled test. How do you fuck up a controlled test when, in theory, you have a bunch of people watching and ready to respond? Unacceptable.

    I think we are arguing the same thing - that this situation needs attention - but you seem to be arguing that there was a proble, and hey, they fixed it. My problem is, the only thing that prevented this from being another Texas City was that it happened out in the middle of nowhere. That's it.

    I didn't say the spill was good. I'm saying the fact that they're testing the valve, and that the media is paying attention to the results of that test, is good. It is bad that the valve didn't pass the test, but it's much better to have the failure occur during testing than during full-scale operation. The test was successful in that it's purpose was to evaluate problems with the valve's performance.

    I don't know if the battery lacked appropriate power, or the problem had something to do with switching power between different grids.
    The Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation said a battery failed to control the valve when power was switched from the main grid during Alyeska's tests.
    However, they could have also been testing the performance of the valve during sub-optimal power conditions.

    I didn't see where the tank had a 100k barrel capacity, just the containment area where the oil currently is.
    Ayleska said the lined containment area that took the spill has a capacity of about 104,500 barrels.

    And I didn't say the oil company had already fixed the problem, I said the media putting them in the spotlight would help ensure that they do fix the problem. The media spotlight helps prevent them from simply writing off the possibility of a failure during full-scale operations as "unlikely."
    Yes, it's good that the media is paying attention. Yes, it's great that they are testing the valve rather than hoping it'll perform if something goes wrong. But to say the test was a success is totally disingenuous - it's like saying "Hey, we only got punched in the face when we could've gotten murdered!" Is it better than the worst possible result? Of course! Even the Deepwater Horizon incident, as it is now, is better than the worst possible scenario! Does that mean it's good or even acceptable? No.

    A couple of notes on engineering and design and some of your assumptions:
    -Valves don't need to be tested during sub-optimal power. All of that sort of testing is done by the vendor who sells you the valve. There is no reason you should do that testing, because you know EXACTLY how the valve is going to perform with X amount of power. You know EXACTLY the minimum amount of power needed to achieve the desired performance. The ONLY reason to run a test like this is not to test the valve, but rather to test your own systems which run the valve - which is what they were doing. The ridiculous thing is, they could've determined how much power they would need and the total load on the system, and they should've been able to tell in advance whether they'd be skirting the minimum or be well over it.

    -The containment area is always going to be approximately the same size as the tank. Granted, BP has made some pretty terrible engineering decisions as evidenced by my last point, but they would have to be pants-on-head stupid not to do this. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt, hence why I said the tank was about 100k barrels.

    -It's great that they are getting media attention to fix the problem. HOWEVER - with current regulations as they are, this problem NEVER. SHOULD. HAVE. HAPPENED. It makes me very suspicious that this did happen - I wonder if they are actually conforming to the regs. Where are the inspectors in all this?

    -The Chernobyl joke was because they WERE running suboptimal power tests; yes they had to disable a lot of their safety systems, but there's still a connection. It was a joke, haha... ok. Never mind.

    Spacemilk on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Whew. Always glad to be wrong (and in this case also able to tell other people that their cynical asses were wrong).


    Now it's just a matter of cleaning up the mess (...and holding BP to their word to pay for it).

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I think the spill will continue until we get this to 100 pages. Locked thread = Clogged pipe.

    It is our duty as Americans and environmental stewards to post in this thread.

    Tofystedeth on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It's great that they are getting media attention to fix the problem. HOWEVER - with current regulations as they are, this problem NEVER. SHOULD. HAVE. HAPPENED. It makes me very suspicious that this did happen - I wonder if they are actually conforming to the regs. Where are the inspectors in all this?

    My understanding is that it was a series of problems that led to the mess: the Blow-Out Preventer was missing vital components as well as a battery or batteries, the cement plug wasn't properly mixed and the crew watching the monitoring / warning equipment didn't react according to procedure. All in all, yes, it sounds like there were at least a couple of major regulation violations.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The live feed of the committee hearings and CNN's front page banner are now reporting that the government has revised its estimate of the spill and it's now (according to the House committee guy) 2-4 times larger than the Exxon Valdez, becoming the largest spill in US history.

    Edit: The current estimate (finally tracking it down) by the government is 12-19,000 barrels/day.

    Aegis on
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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So yeah, now that you have people pleading the Fif, I'm pretty sure we're going to eventually see criminal negligence charges. I don't think this is going to kill BP, but man they are going to be skirting financial insolvency for a while.

    wwtMask on
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    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    SteevL wrote: »
    BBC is reporting that the Top Kill has worked.

    I'd wait for more confirmation before cheering.

    Well, they said that they "stabilised the wellhead". Which could mean any number of things, but most likely that they reduced the flow just enough to try that metal dome idea again.

    DanHibiki on
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    AegisAegis Fear My Dance Overshot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I'm waiting on that because that article as well as a number of others are using as their source Admiral Thad Allen. Now, he's fine as far as I know, it's just the problem is he's US Coast Guard and not BP/the people performing the operation, and further, that BP itself is waiting longer (later today according to the articles) before confirming one way or another whether it's working.

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    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The Coast Guard has been pretty much in Lock Step with BP through this thing. I'm not saying that the CG is doing a bad job out there, necessarily. Just that they are probably delivering information that is mainly sourced from BP.

    Drake on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Well, nothing exploded, so the worst case scenario I was presented with as a possibility is now out the window.


    ...That's worth a minor celebration, right?

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    Pages late, but this is the first chance I've had to reply since I made my last post.
    BubbaT wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    BubbaT, I'm sorry, but the Alaska spill was in no way something that was OK or justifiable. (side note edit: I'm going to say this later, but let me say it now: I agree with you otherwise! This needs attention!) I know what you're saying, we shouldn't be afraid because the test was a success - but it wasn't. In my opinion, while a couple thousand barrels a day isn't a huge deal comparatively speaking, this NEVER should have happened.

    First off, they didn't realize the battery power would be insufficient? Uh, the amount of power needed to close a valve can be calculated and you should know whether the battery is enough. Unacceptable.

    Second of all, the tank that overflowed has a capacity of over 100k barrels. Were they just sitting there with their thumbs up their asses while the tank filled and filled and the valve didn't close? Unacceptable.

    Thirdly, this was supposed to be a controlled test. How do you fuck up a controlled test when, in theory, you have a bunch of people watching and ready to respond? Unacceptable.

    I think we are arguing the same thing - that this situation needs attention - but you seem to be arguing that there was a proble, and hey, they fixed it. My problem is, the only thing that prevented this from being another Texas City was that it happened out in the middle of nowhere. That's it.

    I didn't say the spill was good. I'm saying the fact that they're testing the valve, and that the media is paying attention to the results of that test, is good. It is bad that the valve didn't pass the test, but it's much better to have the failure occur during testing than during full-scale operation. The test was successful in that it's purpose was to evaluate problems with the valve's performance.

    I don't know if the battery lacked appropriate power, or the problem had something to do with switching power between different grids.
    The Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation said a battery failed to control the valve when power was switched from the main grid during Alyeska's tests.
    However, they could have also been testing the performance of the valve during sub-optimal power conditions.

    I didn't see where the tank had a 100k barrel capacity, just the containment area where the oil currently is.
    Ayleska said the lined containment area that took the spill has a capacity of about 104,500 barrels.

    And I didn't say the oil company had already fixed the problem, I said the media putting them in the spotlight would help ensure that they do fix the problem. The media spotlight helps prevent them from simply writing off the possibility of a failure during full-scale operations as "unlikely."
    Yes, it's good that the media is paying attention. Yes, it's great that they are testing the valve rather than hoping it'll perform if something goes wrong. But to say the test was a success is totally disingenuous - it's like saying "Hey, we only got punched in the face when we could've gotten murdered!" Is it better than the worst possible result? Of course! Even the Deepwater Horizon incident, as it is now, is better than the worst possible scenario! Does that mean it's good or even acceptable? No.

    It's a good thing I didn't say the spill was a good thing, then.
    I didn't say the spill was good. I'm saying the fact that they're testing the valve, and that the media is paying attention to the results of that test, is good. It is bad that the valve didn't pass the test, but it's much better to have the failure occur during testing than during full-scale operation. The test was successful in that it's purpose was to evaluate problems with the valve's performance.
    A couple of notes on engineering and design and some of your assumptions:
    -Valves don't need to be tested during sub-optimal power. All of that sort of testing is done by the vendor who sells you the valve. There is no reason you should do that testing, because you know EXACTLY how the valve is going to perform with X amount of power. You know EXACTLY the minimum amount of power needed to achieve the desired performance. The ONLY reason to run a test like this is not to test the valve, but rather to test your own systems which run the valve - which is what they were doing. The ridiculous thing is, they could've determined how much power they would need and the total load on the system, and they should've been able to tell in advance whether they'd be skirting the minimum or be well over it.

    Really, you want to trust the word of the manufacturer over testing in real-world conditions? Seriously? Manufacturers aren't exactly the most honest folks in the world when they're trying to sell you something. The makers of Axe bodyspray would have you believe that using their product will have models swarming all over you. Subway would have you believe their sandwiches make you lose weight.

    And the makers of oil pipeline valves would have you believe their products are completely up to whatever task you ask of them, based on testing - or even worse, mathematically-calculated theoretical thresholds - in isolated, optimal lab conditions. People can make mistakes doing math, the way NASA failed with the Mars Climate Orbiter. And even when the math is sound, there could be a problem with that specific valve, such as a substandard weld. Things don't always function as they're supposed to - if they did, we wouldn't even have this thread because Cameron's BOP would have shut down the wellhead automatically when communications with the rig were lost. They need to be tested - both the valve/BOP controls and the valve/BOP itself - rather than simply waiting for when they're needed and hoping that they work as intended then.

    BubbaT on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Aegis wrote: »
    I'm waiting on that because that article as well as a number of others are using as their source Admiral Thad Allen. Now, he's fine as far as I know, it's just the problem is he's US Coast Guard and not BP/the people performing the operation, and further, that BP itself is waiting longer (later today according to the articles) before confirming one way or another whether it's working.

    According to NPR (just a couple minutes ago), the first-half of the top-kill has been successful. That is, they've successfully pumped the high-pressure mud down and pushed the oil below the surface. The second-half of the procedure--cementing over the well so that the oil can't come back up--either isn't done yet or BP isn't talking.

    Admiral Allen's comments were either misunderstood or he said more than was warranted at the time.

    Hedgethorn on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    C'mon, BP. Make me a liar.


    A dirty, rotten LIAR.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The Ender wrote: »
    Engineering & geology, respectively (only two qualifications worth having in this miserable province as far as getting a decent paycheck is concerned, but that's another story).


    Like I said, I myself don't know anything other than that I would like the oil to stop spilling plz, but I thought I'd pass the word along. Apparently we'll all know by tomorrow regardless.


    Fingers crossed.

    I don't want to hear anything bad, because I'm already depressed.

    But I also don't want to get my hopes up, because I might get let down.

    Can someone say something to help me be exactly as hopeful about this as I am now? No more and no less?

    Schrodinger on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Things don't always function as they're supposed to - if they did, we wouldn't even have this thread because Cameron's BOP would have shut down the wellhead...

    Well, things almost never function as they're supposed to when they don't have the proper parts installed or the correct number of batteries in place - and it's tough to blame the manufacturer for those things.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    So yeah, now that you have people pleading the Fif, I'm pretty sure we're going to eventually see criminal negligence charges. I don't think this is going to kill BP, but man they are going to be skirting financial insolvency for a while.

    BP netted $16b last year, and was projected to earn 2x that this year(higher oil prices and more demand). http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-29/oil-spill-imperils-gulf-coast-fishing-industry-update1-.html says the shrimping industry generates 1.8b in retail sails(which may or may not be different from the revenue lost because of the spill), and another .75-1b in sport fishing. So basically the lost-revenue payouts will maybe cost them their January profits next year, maybe some of February's too. Insolvency isn't going to be an issue.

    tinwhiskers on
    6ylyzxlir2dz.png
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    The Black HunterThe Black Hunter The key is a minimum of compromise, and a simple, unimpeachable reason to existRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If I ran a business and I lost a months worth of of profits due to a 4th grade supervisors mistake Id still feel it.

    They are a pretty rough and tumble company, but they aren't satan incarnate.

    The Black Hunter on
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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    So yeah, now that you have people pleading the Fif, I'm pretty sure we're going to eventually see criminal negligence charges. I don't think this is going to kill BP, but man they are going to be skirting financial insolvency for a while.

    BP netted $16b last year, and was projected to earn 2x that this year(higher oil prices and more demand). http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-04-29/oil-spill-imperils-gulf-coast-fishing-industry-update1-.html says the shrimping industry generates 1.8b in retail sails(which may or may not be different from the revenue lost because of the spill), and another .75-1b in sport fishing. So basically the lost-revenue payouts will maybe cost them their January profits next year, maybe some of February's too. Insolvency isn't going to be an issue.

    If that shit reaches Florida, the tourism industry will have something to say as well, and it is a huge part of our economy. Not to mention the cost of the cleanup in the gulf states, punitive damages from the civil suits, fines levied from the inevitable criminal case, and environmental recovery projects they will be roped into bankrolling. Still, you're probably right that they'll forfeit profitability for a few years at most.

    wwtMask on
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    tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    only tangentially related but: The coming summer and fall could be an "active to extremely active" hurricane season in the Atlantic Ocean, U.S. forecasters with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration predicted. Better get skimming/burning/scrubbing.

    My first thought was that God really hates the south.
    Then I remembered the bible and that he's totally cool with incest

    tinwhiskers on
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    enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If I ran a business and I lost a months worth of of profits due to a 4th grade supervisors mistake Id still feel it.

    They are a pretty rough and tumble company, but they aren't satan incarnate.

    If I were a shareholder, I'd want blood over this all the same. Way to piss away my money.

    enc0re on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2010
    There will be shareholder suits. There are always shareholder suits.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
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    MKRMKR Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So what is this drilling mud they're pumping down? It's spewing out where the oil and gas were before, so I think it's good to consider whether or not it's any better than the oil.

    MKR on
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    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Drilling mud appears to be pretty neutral stuff.
    Wikipedia wrote:
    Composition of drilling mud

    Water-based drilling mud most commonly consists of bentonite clay (gel) with additives such as barium sulfate (barite), calcium carbonate (chalk) or hematite. Various thickeners are used to influence the viscosity of the fluid, e.g. xanthan gum, guar gum, glycol, carboxymethylcellulose, polyanionic cellulose (PAC), or starch. In turn, deflocculants are used to reduce viscosity of clay-based muds; anionic polyelectrolytes (e.g. acrylates, polyphosphates, lignosulfonates (Lig) or tannic acid derivates such as Quebracho) are frequently used. Red mud was the name for a Quebracho-based mixture, named after the color of the red tannic acid salts; it was commonly used in 1940s to 1950s, then was made obsolete when lignosulfonates became available. Many other chemicals are also used to maintain or create some of the properties listed in the section titled "Function".

    Full Entry.

    Drake on
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    SpacklerSpackler Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I think the spill will continue until we get this to 100 pages. Locked thread = Clogged pipe.

    Post baby post?

    Spackler on
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    RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Just doing my part!

    Ringo on
    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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    DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Go, go magical thinking!

    Drake on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    So if this works can we start with the trials?

    ...

    Oh. Right. :(

    enlightenedbum on
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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Of course we can Ebum. We can try them here.

    Who wants to be the defense?

    lonelyahava on
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