The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
We give permission to use the logo (assuming it's under 4" in physical size and we get approval on it), but you can't charge for the item. It doesn't matter if it's not for profit. You have to give them away for free.
So in the vein of not charging we're going to have to be very careful with the pooling of resources in order to not break that respect and trust. but in good news, I don't think anyone really wanted to sell or buy these so much as they were very interested in HAVING them, so we can probably still pool our resorces via a paypal account or the like in order to purchase them in bulk, with no leftovers, and buying as many coins as our resorces allow. ... if that makes sense. basically no 10 dollar coins with leftovers for childs play, but we should still be able to do the run of coins and each have some, so I'm calling that good news.
We give permission to use the logo (assuming it's under 4" in physical size and we get approval on it), but you can't charge for the item. It doesn't matter if it's not for profit. You have to give them away for free.
Thanks for the response, Mr. Khoo!
With that being said, anyone want to start designing some draft coins? Just need two images, one for each side of the coin, and then I can submit it to a couple of companies to get some proofs and quotes.
When you get quotes on the cost of these, google some companies that make GeoCoins, and you might look into custom poker chip makers. You may find business that can make the same type of coin you're looking for, but will have different rates and setup fees.
In light of Khoo's guidance there are some financial ethics things we're going to have to straighten out.
Let me toss out three scenarios:
a) One person commissions everything, art, die production, minting with a single, unilateral outlay
b) A few people pool significant seed contributions for necessary costs
c) A lot of people pool small contributions for necessary costs
It seems that the current model being leaned toward has been b) but for my part I was hoping to recoup at least part of my seed contribution. I don't need two dozen plus coins, nor do I have even two dozen plus people to whom I would want to give coins.
Anyway, I'm a bit confused by the ethics of this. If say person A gives person B some money so that person B can combine that money with his own to pay for coins, that's not 'buying' them because the coins don't exist yet? But if person B spends twice as much as he would normally to produce the coins, and then person A defrays that cost for a predetermined amount, that's 'buying' them because the coins exist before the money changes hands?
I suggest that there is no ethical difference. So this means either a) one person has to pay for everything and recoup nothing or b) ... well, under the current guidance there is no b), at least not in any rational construction of ethics.
I'm not certain how to do this, but wouldn't this work?
1. Setup an account (paypal?) that accepts donations.
2. Create a definite goal for funds needed to create a large number* of these tokens.
3. Parameters: if goal not reached, no coins and all $ goes to CP. If goal exceeded, more coins (we must predefine a limit on how many coins) and donate excess funds to CP.
In the interest of maintaining that this is not a 'purchase' the names of the individuals who donate should probably not be published.
Perhaps the person in charge of the paypal account should be whomever takes the initiative to create an interface of some sort to allow these donations and to show goal progress.
Preference in handing out coins could probably go to forumers, pre-pax event attendees, or our friends as long as there's no charge. Following that dispersal, perhaps leaving them about the hall to be found at random. Also, some could be sent in the mail to people who will not be at PAX but still want a coin... that would be more difficult, but paying for a stamp is not the same as purchasing the item.
Distributing the coins could pose a challenge. As there is no legal obligation for delivery because there is technically no 'purchase' and the list of donors is going to be consolidated under a single person's control effectively anonymizing them to the outside, I can foresee drama ahead for people who don't get anything who feel they should have. On the 'up' side, no legal obligation for delivery means no legal liability and nobody could take legal action (IMO IANAL). This would however necessitate people agreeing to this as a contract before any donation takes place for the legal safety of the organizer against any kind of silly civil action.
I think I can come to terms about not recouping my money, but we'll see how many people sign on for real once we work out the design particulars. We really need design submissions, and then we can have a poll about the designs and/or materials and/or production companies.
I like the model of a paypal account taking donations until a set goal is met/exceeded, then buying the coins with the funds. I think that's about as good as this is going to work within the limitations Khoo has given us. (unless of course someone decides to just pay for it all, heh, but I find that unlikely)
Distributing the coins could pose a challenge. As there is no legal obligation for delivery because there is technically no 'purchase' and the list of donors is going to be consolidated under a single person's control effectively anonymizing them to the outside, I can foresee drama ahead for people who don't get anything who feel they should have. On the 'up' side, no legal obligation for delivery means no legal liability and nobody could take legal action (IMO IANAL). This would however necessitate people agreeing to this as a contract before any donation takes place for the legal safety of the organizer against any kind of silly civil action.
I think I can come to terms about not recouping my money, but we'll see how many people sign on for real once we work out the design particulars. We really need design submissions, and then we can have a poll about the designs and/or materials and/or production companies.
I think we could have the coin maker ship to a few people who are well know in the community and reliable. Also make some key info available. Lets be honest here who will steal 200 coins and pretty much ban him self from the pa community. Also i doubt we would have no legal recourse but now is not the time or place to play E-lawyer.
Assuming I take care of tracking and payments and receiving and shipping of the coins and all that, I'd be willing to give out (to people who donate to the cause) contact information for the people in my chain of command. That way, you can be sure that if anything wasn't kosher and you contacted them, then I'd still get a hell of a lot of trouble. Not that I'd know what to do with 100+ coins myself.
well we aren't supposed to be ending up with any overages, so ideally this is how it would work,
we would get the price from the coin company for a run of coins, we would then somewhat equally divide the coins/cost among a group of people to team up and purchase them. This is the business ethics version of what we're looking for. Since the logo is not our own, we would not have any rights to sell the coins on a per diem basis, either for profit OR charity, so the pooled money for a run is probably our best bet.
also, why don't we just use the pax 2010 logo for one side of the coin? just a thought. also red and blue are great colors as they are an inexplicable gaming reference. just a thought.
what about if the amount doesn't get met? what would happen to all the money that was put towards the coins?
I say refunded or all donated to CP.
There should be no correlation between giving money to the fund and having any guarantee of getting a coin. The money is for determining if the coins exist. Distribution should have absolutely no correlation with who gave the money for them to exist.
Now, there are ways to help improve the odds that donators get a coin. One way would be to create a FREE online sign-up sheet (signups end before pax or when donations end) to reserve a coin. To pick up, meet at 6pm(?) Thursday, Friday or Saturday at the front doors. Your name must be on the list. This would eliminate people who were simply lucky at the right place and time (like a pre-pax event) to get a coin.
There are other methods I'm sure, but the coins must be free of charge! Paying must not mean you are guaranteed a coin.
I'm thinking that actually mailing the coins to people will be too much of a headache (labor + cost calculation). I suggest that the coins only be handed out in person.
what about if the amount doesn't get met? what would happen to all the money that was put towards the coins?
I say refunded or all donated to CP.
There should be no correlation between giving money to the fund and having any guarantee of getting a coin. The money is for determining if the coins exist. Distribution should have absolutely no correlation with who gave the money for them to exist.
Now, there are ways to help improve the odds that donators get a coin. One way would be to create a FREE online sign-up sheet (signups end before pax or when donations end) to reserve a coin. To pick up, meet at 6pm(?) Thursday, Friday or Saturday at the front doors. Your name must be on the list. This would eliminate people who were simply lucky at the right place and time (like a pre-pax event) to get a coin.
There are other methods I'm sure, but the coins must be free of charge! Paying must not mean you are guaranteed a coin.
I'm thinking that actually mailing the coins to people will be too much of a headache (labor + cost calculation). I suggest that the coins only be handed out in person.
Ok ^this, I am not ok with. part of the reason i am interested in this, is I would love to have say 20 coins I could hand out to people at prepax events etc, (also why I don't mind footing 100$ of the bill for these)
Ok ^this, I am not ok with. part of the reason i am interested in this, is I would love to have say 20 coins I could hand out to people at prepax events etc, (also why I don't mind footing 100$ of the bill for these)
Okay, that was just an idea. What if 50% were dispersed freely at pre-pax events, 30% Friday evening and 20% Saturday evening at some pre-designated time & place? Limit X per person?
I just don't see how we can "not charge for these" yet give more to those who pay more.
because we all chip in for an initial run, in that way we as an entity purchase them from the coin maker, the issue comes when one person purchases them then arbitrarily decides to charge others for their time effort/charity
if we chip in together after getting an estimate/price we should be fine. the issue is when you buy then sell, not if you all buy together.
I just don't see how we can "not charge for these" yet give more to those who pay more.
*cough* Like I said, I can foresee drama ahead...
Also, for the record, I too am against the 'donate to CP if short' method. It's dangerous to potentially incentivize failure.
But yes, the current guidance actually, as I pointed out earlier, makes any pooled financing and organized/obligated distribution technically disallowed. That is ethically equivalent to a purchase. It really would need to be one or the other (a unilateral purchase with organized distribution or a pooled purchase with some kind of open distribution).
chupamiubre: It's important that there NOT be legal recourse. The organizer(s)/distributor(s) need to be protected from some wanker who feels slighted because they didn't get what they thought they would (and for anybody who thinks the PAX community doesn't have wankers, I present Shaddz as an exhibit, reformed or not).
I might be WAY off but i don't think covering costs = selling them.
I think buying 50 of them then selling them for or at no profit is what khoo was speaking about.
People seem to be thinking we need to donate and some random person decides how many we get. Thats just dumb if i can be blunt it will only cause people to be butthurt all over the place.
If khoo could simply clarify a bit more that would be great. As in my other post i say we post how much each coin is if we make 50,100,200,300.
Also we don't have to use the pa logo. I think the best design would have form things on the coin. So on the back we could have the crests of say the CCST and the train trip and the super trip. Also could include thing happening at pax like buttoneers and cookie brigade and the bar crawl. We don't have to make this simple in any way it needs to look kick ass thats it's only requirement.
chupamiubre on
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<Qs23> I just need to get my dicks in a row
<prox> i work for dicks #paforums_pax, all about the dicks.
0
Arithon32Member of the PinquisitionRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
It sounds like the simplest way to sort this out is to get a count of how many coins need to be made. From what I understand of the process, if we know how many coins need to be minted it's easy to figure out the cost per coin and everyone chips in for the amount of coins they wanted.
1. We figure out who wants how many coins
2. Determine price per coin for a run of that size
3. Everyone puts in for the amount of coins they originally requested
4. We either factor in shipping costs or arrange for some kind of meet-up at PAX
I know that's asking for an awful lot of trust in people on the Internet, but if I'm gonna trust anybody on the web, it's PAX forumers.
[...] but you can't charge for the item. It doesn't matter if it's not for profit. You have to give them away for free.
Emphasis added. I may actually draw a chart later to demonstrate the equivalencies because unfortunately it's not a very simple or intuitive matter.
And as for not using the logo, that's something I gave some thought too as well, but I ultimately didn't suggest it because a) decreased relevancy/appeal and b) PAX and Penny Arcade Expo are still intellectual property as well, so just even putting those on the coin would be just as limiting. Relevancy is important. If the item can't be visually identified with PAX, what's the point? Why don't we all just buy a bunch of generic coins then and just declare them to be PAX coins? It's just not the same.
While we don't "have to" do anything, the simplest designs tend to be the most aesthetically appreciated. It's a coin, not a group photo, and if we throw a dozen different elements into it there is no way it can avoid looking 'busy' among other criticisms.
ElectricTurtle on
0
redhaloAlso a Professional AlcoholicRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I think people should listen to ET in this thread and get their bases covered before taking money. Once you start a project like this you'd be surprised what people will think they are owed despite being told ahead of time they are not. If anyone here knows the truth of this it's ET.
I will let my words stand for them self ok you are being a silly goose. Doing a group buy does not mean we are selling them PERIOD ok. Pooling peoples money together to buy a large item does not mean one main person is selling it. You draw all the graphs you want not like i will give a damn.
Also the whole "Oh i like simple looking things" good for you. How about you throw out some ideas rather than just shitting on other peoples ideas for once? Most challenge coins involve complex crests and symbols like these these. Also don't fool your self the coins will be purchased nearly only by form people so i thought including events that form people put on just might be a good idea, but what do i know.
At this point i have no idea how this will ever work so whatever.
chupamiubre on
<ZeroHourHero> I have a tiny penis
<Qs23> I just need to get my dicks in a row
<prox> i work for dicks #paforums_pax, all about the dicks.
So, we got the ok to use the logo, that seems like a good enough reason to me to use it. now admittedly the smaller the group of people the easier this is to manage. didn't we have like 5 people willing to put in 100 bucks? that would cover the initial run of 100 if I understand correctly. and after that can't you get them at a per coin price? so if us 5, whoever we be, pony up for the first run, ANYBODY could get however many they want. maybe that's somethign to think about. granted it's a bigger investment on the initial invesotrs, and you get nothign back (except coins) (awesome!) but maybe it would be a better idea in the long run to do it that way to avoid nastiness? Just an idea, again I want everyone to be happy here. and I know lots of us are interested in these for entirely different reasons.
I think people should listen to ET in this thread and get their bases covered before taking money. Once you start a project like this you'd be surprised what people will think they are owed despite being told ahead of time they are not. If anyone here knows the truth of this it's ET.
I agree, ET has the concept down.
"Charging" means trading money for an item, even if the money is the item's actual cost. We are NOT allowed to charge for the coins, even at no profit.
This is what we cannot do:
Figure out the cost of a coin, donate $$ representative of the number of coins you'd like, and expect to get what you paid for. That is trading money for an item, isn't it.
This is what we can do:
Put up money as a group so that coins will be available for free (no compensation at all) at PAX for anyone who knows where/how to ask for them.
In other words, If there are to be coins at PAX, we as a group must buy them to be shared by all. Yes, you will be buying coins for people who did not pony anything up but ask for one nonetheless.
so then you're saying that if a small subset get together and pool their funds to make a large purchase, say a run of coins, that constitutes the individuals purchassing from one individual?
so let's say this, 5 people get together, buy the coins together, sharing equal price, getting equal coins, that does NOT constitute selling. as you don't have both sides of the purchase agreement.
legally speaking there is very little difference between an organization purchasing something in commune or a single individual purchasing something. both are considered an "entity" so unless we were being restricted in our purchse of the coinse from the coin manufacturer, we don't really have an issue aside from dsitribution. - which granted can be an issue. Also we want to be certain that we as a group/club/entity agree internally as to the shared cost/distribution of the materials.
Maybe we can avoid the whole distribution/sale issue if there are no PAX related bits on the coins...then it's just a matter of getting the money together and selling coins right? Like if the design only incorporated the pax colors, said 2010, maybe WEST as well and made our own design (something that can be a trademark of the coins for future batches)
I think we need clarification from Khoo on what, exactly, he means by "sell."
I'm not Khoo, but what I think he means is that we can get something MADE with the PA logo, as long as it's approved and as long as we don't turn around and re-sell that item, even for charity. We either give them to the people who paid for it, or we give them to other people for free. I don't think he was talking about pooling money, purchasing, or distributing the item(s). I think he was just making sure we understood that we're not allowed to take money in exchange for any item that has PA/PAX on it, no matter where that money eventually ends up.
I could be wrong, though.
Arco on
Like this, not like the gas station.
Organizer of the Post-PAX Party. You should come!
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I feel like we are splitting hairs here, but I PM'd Mr. Khoo just for clarification on the matter. I mean, the easiest would be to pool money and have one person give away coins during PAX / pre-PAX events, but I doubt people are going to trust RandomInternetSchlub1 with it.
But the point of putting easily identifiable images (i.e., PA logo, Gabe/Tycho) is so people can tell what you are about. If we put random obscure references like Carl or an Earfucker, then it loses it's potency. A coin that clearly identifies itself, through a logo or otherwise, would ensure that even a casual reader of Penny Arcade would know what's going on.
Example: I have the number '42' tattooed on my left wrist. Most people say, "What does the 42 stand for?" Of course, I'm cryptic in my answer (i.e. "It's the answer to Life, Universe, and Everything"). Very few people who have read Douglas Adams even get the reference without me having to explain it, and even then it's only the hardcore of the fans.
I feel like we are splitting hairs here, but I PM'd Mr. Khoo just for clarification on the matter. I mean, the easiest would be to pool money and have one person give away coins during PAX / pre-PAX events, but I doubt people are going to trust RandomInternetSchlub1 with it.
But the point of putting easily identifiable images (i.e., PA logo, Gabe/Tycho) is so people can tell what you are about. If we put random obscure references like Carl or an Earfucker, then it loses it's potency. A coin that clearly identifies itself, through a logo or otherwise, would ensure that even a casual reader of Penny Arcade would know what's going on.
Example: I have the number '42' tattooed on my left wrist. Most people say, "What does the 42 stand for?" Of course, I'm cryptic in my answer (i.e. "It's the answer to Life, Universe, and Everything"). Very few people who have read Douglas Adams even get the reference without me having to explain it, and even then it's only the hardcore of the fans.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
A) Pool money, and one trusted individual distributes during the festivities.
Pool money, and do some sort of randomized distribution. Split the coins into random groups of 6, 8, 10, 12, whatever. Anyone who wants coins to give away, regardless of whether they donated or not, will get randomly selected, and then sent a random set to give away during the events.
There's also the option of one person paying all, but I doubt that will happen. And as far as pooling money, I have ideas how to do it, but let's see some more design ideas first.
I'd say the first option is the better idea, there are several members of the community who are known personally to others and are usually fairly easy to find (coughBigRedcough).
As far as pooling money, the easiest would just be some kind of Paypal thing, wouldn't it? Maybe with a chipin widget on it.
Well, now that Khoo has weighed in with a clarification, this isn't seeming like it's such a great idea any more. No matter what any individual does to chip in, contribute ideas/plans, or design no one has any more chance to get a coin than any other person who has never even been near the forums.... except whoever is handling the money/ordering.
To contribute a small amount to something with low potential for receiving any benefit is one thing, however contributing a significant chunk of change with that same potential is a totally different ballgame and asking an awful lot of people. Yes, I say low potential, because as soon as the shiny coins get seen they are going to get gobbled up by every schlub in grasping distance and there will be tons of people at even pre-PAX events that never even glanced at this thread.. but free shinies are free shinies. Let there be one instance of someone not handing over a coin because they "are saving it" for so-and-so and the whole legality is blown.
I'm somewhat interested in the idea of these coins, but have not been offering donations or concrete interest because I have yet to see what size, shape, material or design is going to be involved. I'm sorry for jumping into this discussion out of the blue but I'd like to see this idea develop and I think too many people are getting frustrated with donations and compensation for something that hasn't left the concept phase yet.
There's a vague concept and a few people offering unnecessarily large amounts of money... and one design idea.
If anyone still wants to debate financing please visit the spoiler tag below:
<rant>
Take a quick look at this threads page views. It's a safe bet there are quite a few possibly interested people (like me) lurking the thread. Probably enough people to cover the cost of creating these with donations in the $10-20 range, and to create a large enough number of coins to be able to distribute them adequately and freely at PAX.
If the donation amounts are smaller, no one needs to be compensated, reimbursed or have any specific sense of entitlement. A large group pools together a large sum, coins are made and freely distributed at PAX. There is no X number of $$ for X number of coins and therefore there is no selling. If someone donates $10-20 then doesn't show up where/when they are being distributed to get one (for free) then they made their choice of priorities for that day.
So, big spenders, put your wallets away for a few pages and lets talk about design ideas so I (and all the lurkers out there) can decide if we want to make small donations into someones paypal account in order to make this happen. Otherwise, this isn't going to happen because expecting compensation/reimbursement (in money or coins) for oversized donations is exactly what is causing the problem here.
If you get reimbursed with currency or product, it is NOT a donation. If it is not a donation it is a purchase. If it is a purchase then the person we are pooling the money to is making a sale. <insert ETs graph here>
</rant>
So lets move on to what matters:
The only design submitted thus far is nice looking, the Wombat is a nice touch for the tails side of the coin.
Personally I'd be more prone to want a more universal 'heads' side to a PAX coin, so I'm not a fan of putting the year on it. Maybe a PAX logo (sans year) on the 'heads' side, with blue in the design for prime (or red and blue if you want to include both coasts). On the 'tails' side, a Penny Arcade related character/icon (ie Wombat, FF, Deepcrow, Catsby). If you really NEED the year it could go in smaller print on the tails side, like a real coin.
Rather than making them year specific, if another run was made next year, you could keep the 'heads' (PAX) design exactly the same and change up the PA character on the tails side. That can add collectibility (each year different on the back side of the coin) and keep the head side of the coin more traditional to challenge coins, as an organizations coin doesn't really change with each new print run.
Also, I'm a fan of the 2" coin.... perhaps a poll might be in order?
Thats just my thought on the design, feel free to debate it.... please. :P
Posts
Thanks Khoo! we appreciate you chiming in!
Thanks for the response, Mr. Khoo!
With that being said, anyone want to start designing some draft coins? Just need two images, one for each side of the coin, and then I can submit it to a couple of companies to get some proofs and quotes.
7 PAX veteran
Let me toss out three scenarios:
a) One person commissions everything, art, die production, minting with a single, unilateral outlay
b) A few people pool significant seed contributions for necessary costs
c) A lot of people pool small contributions for necessary costs
It seems that the current model being leaned toward has been b) but for my part I was hoping to recoup at least part of my seed contribution. I don't need two dozen plus coins, nor do I have even two dozen plus people to whom I would want to give coins.
Anyway, I'm a bit confused by the ethics of this. If say person A gives person B some money so that person B can combine that money with his own to pay for coins, that's not 'buying' them because the coins don't exist yet? But if person B spends twice as much as he would normally to produce the coins, and then person A defrays that cost for a predetermined amount, that's 'buying' them because the coins exist before the money changes hands?
I suggest that there is no ethical difference. So this means either a) one person has to pay for everything and recoup nothing or b) ... well, under the current guidance there is no b), at least not in any rational construction of ethics.
1. Setup an account (paypal?) that accepts donations.
2. Create a definite goal for funds needed to create a large number* of these tokens.
3. Parameters: if goal not reached, no coins and all $ goes to CP. If goal exceeded, more coins (we must predefine a limit on how many coins) and donate excess funds to CP.
In the interest of maintaining that this is not a 'purchase' the names of the individuals who donate should probably not be published.
Perhaps the person in charge of the paypal account should be whomever takes the initiative to create an interface of some sort to allow these donations and to show goal progress.
Preference in handing out coins could probably go to forumers, pre-pax event attendees, or our friends as long as there's no charge. Following that dispersal, perhaps leaving them about the hall to be found at random. Also, some could be sent in the mail to people who will not be at PAX but still want a coin... that would be more difficult, but paying for a stamp is not the same as purchasing the item.
I think I can come to terms about not recouping my money, but we'll see how many people sign on for real once we work out the design particulars. We really need design submissions, and then we can have a poll about the designs and/or materials and/or production companies.
[X] Train tix
[_] Finish Vivi costume
[X] Anxiously wait
I think we could have the coin maker ship to a few people who are well know in the community and reliable. Also make some key info available. Lets be honest here who will steal 200 coins and pretty much ban him self from the pa community. Also i doubt we would have no legal recourse but now is not the time or place to play E-lawyer.
Refund it to the people. You can usually refund paypal money pretty easily.
<Qs23> I just need to get my dicks in a row
<prox> i work for dicks
#paforums_pax, all about the dicks.
my first attempt at a coin design
[X] Train tix
[_] Finish Vivi costume
[X] Anxiously wait
we would get the price from the coin company for a run of coins, we would then somewhat equally divide the coins/cost among a group of people to team up and purchase them. This is the business ethics version of what we're looking for. Since the logo is not our own, we would not have any rights to sell the coins on a per diem basis, either for profit OR charity, so the pooled money for a run is probably our best bet.
also, why don't we just use the pax 2010 logo for one side of the coin? just a thought. also red and blue are great colors as they are an inexplicable gaming reference. just a thought.
I say refunded or all donated to CP.
There should be no correlation between giving money to the fund and having any guarantee of getting a coin. The money is for determining if the coins exist. Distribution should have absolutely no correlation with who gave the money for them to exist.
Now, there are ways to help improve the odds that donators get a coin. One way would be to create a FREE online sign-up sheet (signups end before pax or when donations end) to reserve a coin. To pick up, meet at 6pm(?) Thursday, Friday or Saturday at the front doors. Your name must be on the list. This would eliminate people who were simply lucky at the right place and time (like a pre-pax event) to get a coin.
There are other methods I'm sure, but the coins must be free of charge! Paying must not mean you are guaranteed a coin.
I'm thinking that actually mailing the coins to people will be too much of a headache (labor + cost calculation). I suggest that the coins only be handed out in person.
Ok ^this, I am not ok with. part of the reason i am interested in this, is I would love to have say 20 coins I could hand out to people at prepax events etc, (also why I don't mind footing 100$ of the bill for these)
Okay, that was just an idea. What if 50% were dispersed freely at pre-pax events, 30% Friday evening and 20% Saturday evening at some pre-designated time & place? Limit X per person?
I just don't see how we can "not charge for these" yet give more to those who pay more.
if we chip in together after getting an estimate/price we should be fine. the issue is when you buy then sell, not if you all buy together.
*cough* Like I said, I can foresee drama ahead...
Also, for the record, I too am against the 'donate to CP if short' method. It's dangerous to potentially incentivize failure.
But yes, the current guidance actually, as I pointed out earlier, makes any pooled financing and organized/obligated distribution technically disallowed. That is ethically equivalent to a purchase. It really would need to be one or the other (a unilateral purchase with organized distribution or a pooled purchase with some kind of open distribution).
chupamiubre: It's important that there NOT be legal recourse. The organizer(s)/distributor(s) need to be protected from some wanker who feels slighted because they didn't get what they thought they would (and for anybody who thinks the PAX community doesn't have wankers, I present Shaddz as an exhibit, reformed or not).
I think buying 50 of them then selling them for or at no profit is what khoo was speaking about.
People seem to be thinking we need to donate and some random person decides how many we get. Thats just dumb if i can be blunt it will only cause people to be butthurt all over the place.
If khoo could simply clarify a bit more that would be great. As in my other post i say we post how much each coin is if we make 50,100,200,300.
Also we don't have to use the pa logo. I think the best design would have form things on the coin. So on the back we could have the crests of say the CCST and the train trip and the super trip. Also could include thing happening at pax like buttoneers and cookie brigade and the bar crawl. We don't have to make this simple in any way it needs to look kick ass thats it's only requirement.
<Qs23> I just need to get my dicks in a row
<prox> i work for dicks
#paforums_pax, all about the dicks.
1. We figure out who wants how many coins
2. Determine price per coin for a run of that size
3. Everyone puts in for the amount of coins they originally requested
4. We either factor in shipping costs or arrange for some kind of meet-up at PAX
I know that's asking for an awful lot of trust in people on the Internet, but if I'm gonna trust anybody on the web, it's PAX forumers.
Ahem:
Emphasis added. I may actually draw a chart later to demonstrate the equivalencies because unfortunately it's not a very simple or intuitive matter.
And as for not using the logo, that's something I gave some thought too as well, but I ultimately didn't suggest it because a) decreased relevancy/appeal and b) PAX and Penny Arcade Expo are still intellectual property as well, so just even putting those on the coin would be just as limiting. Relevancy is important. If the item can't be visually identified with PAX, what's the point? Why don't we all just buy a bunch of generic coins then and just declare them to be PAX coins? It's just not the same.
While we don't "have to" do anything, the simplest designs tend to be the most aesthetically appreciated. It's a coin, not a group photo, and if we throw a dozen different elements into it there is no way it can avoid looking 'busy' among other criticisms.
Also the whole "Oh i like simple looking things" good for you. How about you throw out some ideas rather than just shitting on other peoples ideas for once? Most challenge coins involve complex crests and symbols like these these. Also don't fool your self the coins will be purchased nearly only by form people so i thought including events that form people put on just might be a good idea, but what do i know.
At this point i have no idea how this will ever work so whatever.
<Qs23> I just need to get my dicks in a row
<prox> i work for dicks
#paforums_pax, all about the dicks.
I agree, ET has the concept down.
"Charging" means trading money for an item, even if the money is the item's actual cost. We are NOT allowed to charge for the coins, even at no profit.
This is what we cannot do:
Figure out the cost of a coin, donate $$ representative of the number of coins you'd like, and expect to get what you paid for. That is trading money for an item, isn't it.
This is what we can do:
Put up money as a group so that coins will be available for free (no compensation at all) at PAX for anyone who knows where/how to ask for them.
In other words, If there are to be coins at PAX, we as a group must buy them to be shared by all. Yes, you will be buying coins for people who did not pony anything up but ask for one nonetheless.
[X] Train tix
[_] Finish Vivi costume
[X] Anxiously wait
so then you're saying that if a small subset get together and pool their funds to make a large purchase, say a run of coins, that constitutes the individuals purchassing from one individual?
so let's say this, 5 people get together, buy the coins together, sharing equal price, getting equal coins, that does NOT constitute selling. as you don't have both sides of the purchase agreement.
legally speaking there is very little difference between an organization purchasing something in commune or a single individual purchasing something. both are considered an "entity" so unless we were being restricted in our purchse of the coinse from the coin manufacturer, we don't really have an issue aside from dsitribution. - which granted can be an issue. Also we want to be certain that we as a group/club/entity agree internally as to the shared cost/distribution of the materials.
would that work?
[X] Train tix
[_] Finish Vivi costume
[X] Anxiously wait
I'm not Khoo, but what I think he means is that we can get something MADE with the PA logo, as long as it's approved and as long as we don't turn around and re-sell that item, even for charity. We either give them to the people who paid for it, or we give them to other people for free. I don't think he was talking about pooling money, purchasing, or distributing the item(s). I think he was just making sure we understood that we're not allowed to take money in exchange for any item that has PA/PAX on it, no matter where that money eventually ends up.
I could be wrong, though.
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But the point of putting easily identifiable images (i.e., PA logo, Gabe/Tycho) is so people can tell what you are about. If we put random obscure references like Carl or an Earfucker, then it loses it's potency. A coin that clearly identifies itself, through a logo or otherwise, would ensure that even a casual reader of Penny Arcade would know what's going on.
Example: I have the number '42' tattooed on my left wrist. Most people say, "What does the 42 stand for?" Of course, I'm cryptic in my answer (i.e. "It's the answer to Life, Universe, and Everything"). Very few people who have read Douglas Adams even get the reference without me having to explain it, and even then it's only the hardcore of the fans.
Woooooo!!!!
That's a great idea.
A) Pool money, and one trusted individual distributes during the festivities.
There's also the option of one person paying all, but I doubt that will happen. And as far as pooling money, I have ideas how to do it, but let's see some more design ideas first.
(And thank you for the clarification, Khoo).
As far as pooling money, the easiest would just be some kind of Paypal thing, wouldn't it? Maybe with a chipin widget on it.
To contribute a small amount to something with low potential for receiving any benefit is one thing, however contributing a significant chunk of change with that same potential is a totally different ballgame and asking an awful lot of people. Yes, I say low potential, because as soon as the shiny coins get seen they are going to get gobbled up by every schlub in grasping distance and there will be tons of people at even pre-PAX events that never even glanced at this thread.. but free shinies are free shinies. Let there be one instance of someone not handing over a coin because they "are saving it" for so-and-so and the whole legality is blown.
To reinforce that thought,
I'm somewhat interested in the idea of these coins, but have not been offering donations or concrete interest because I have yet to see what size, shape, material or design is going to be involved. I'm sorry for jumping into this discussion out of the blue but I'd like to see this idea develop and I think too many people are getting frustrated with donations and compensation for something that hasn't left the concept phase yet.
There's a vague concept and a few people offering unnecessarily large amounts of money... and one design idea.
If anyone still wants to debate financing please visit the spoiler tag below:
Take a quick look at this threads page views. It's a safe bet there are quite a few possibly interested people (like me) lurking the thread. Probably enough people to cover the cost of creating these with donations in the $10-20 range, and to create a large enough number of coins to be able to distribute them adequately and freely at PAX.
If the donation amounts are smaller, no one needs to be compensated, reimbursed or have any specific sense of entitlement. A large group pools together a large sum, coins are made and freely distributed at PAX. There is no X number of $$ for X number of coins and therefore there is no selling. If someone donates $10-20 then doesn't show up where/when they are being distributed to get one (for free) then they made their choice of priorities for that day.
So, big spenders, put your wallets away for a few pages and lets talk about design ideas so I (and all the lurkers out there) can decide if we want to make small donations into someones paypal account in order to make this happen. Otherwise, this isn't going to happen because expecting compensation/reimbursement (in money or coins) for oversized donations is exactly what is causing the problem here.
If you get reimbursed with currency or product, it is NOT a donation. If it is not a donation it is a purchase. If it is a purchase then the person we are pooling the money to is making a sale. <insert ETs graph here>
</rant>
So lets move on to what matters:
The only design submitted thus far is nice looking, the Wombat is a nice touch for the tails side of the coin.
Personally I'd be more prone to want a more universal 'heads' side to a PAX coin, so I'm not a fan of putting the year on it. Maybe a PAX logo (sans year) on the 'heads' side, with blue in the design for prime (or red and blue if you want to include both coasts). On the 'tails' side, a Penny Arcade related character/icon (ie Wombat, FF, Deepcrow, Catsby). If you really NEED the year it could go in smaller print on the tails side, like a real coin.
Rather than making them year specific, if another run was made next year, you could keep the 'heads' (PAX) design exactly the same and change up the PA character on the tails side. That can add collectibility (each year different on the back side of the coin) and keep the head side of the coin more traditional to challenge coins, as an organizations coin doesn't really change with each new print run.
Also, I'm a fan of the 2" coin.... perhaps a poll might be in order?
Thats just my thought on the design, feel free to debate it.... please. :P
It's PAX related, it's drinking related, and completely avoids any infringement issues.
Just throwing it out there.
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