Controlled for minerals you get 5x1. Controlled for gas is undefined. Controlled for total resources you get 8. Controlled for food you get 3.
So you will win with marines unless you allow him to mass them up until you have equal food of marines and void rays. At any point until then you should be able to match him for total approximate resources.
All this math is pointless. what matters is real world, and so far I have found that once you have three charged void rays in anyone's base, there is very little they can throw against it that will kill them unless they were already massing marines to begin with.
I'll time myself in a custom game sometime, see how long it takes me to get out that second or third void ray, and take a guess at how long it would take a terran player to get enough maines to counter.
Because it might be longer than you think, especially since, unless massing marines was your strategy to begin with, your first rax probably has a tech lab, and maybe even your second one too, and you're not going to even have the slightest inkling of whats happening until you scout their base and see only 1 gateway, double gas, and a cybercore.
First void can get out at a little over 7 minutes if you tech with cannon defense at a choke. That means 3 voids will be all up in your base at 9:30-10min mark depending on map size, proxy and all that jazz.
Lilnoobs on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2010
I am just amazed at these magical Void Ray Rushes (tm) wherein the opponent gets three void rays in your base and there is nothing you can do.
This is like that replay where the dude has a mothership and twenty carriers in five minutes of the game.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Controlled for minerals you get 5x1. Controlled for gas is undefined. Controlled for total resources you get 8. Controlled for food you get 3.
So you will win with marines unless you allow him to mass them up until you have equal food of marines and void rays. At any point until then you should be able to match him for total approximate resources.
All this math is pointless. what matters is real world, and so far I have found that once you have three charged void rays in anyone's base, there is very little they can throw against it that will kill them unless they were already massing marines to begin with.
I'll time myself in a custom game sometime, see how long it takes me to get out that second or third void ray, and take a guess at how long it would take a terran player to get enough maines to counter.
Because it might be longer than you think, especially since, unless massing marines was your strategy to begin with, your first rax probably has a tech lab, and maybe even your second one too, and you're not going to even have the slightest inkling of whats happening until you scout their base and see only 1 gateway, double gas, and a cybercore.
Well, that's the thing. Scouting is Starcraft. If you don;t you're just guessing, then sucking wind trying to counter whatever he's doing. Seeing a void ray rush isn't all that hard, and Terran is well equipped to deal with it.
Assuming the Protoss player is dumb enough to put his Stargate inside his base, sure. Otherwise all you see is two assimilators, a single gateway and a cybernetics core. And at the stage of the game that you're at, there's a couple different ways you can go from there.
I'm not trying to say that countering a void ray rush is impossible. All I'm trying to point out is that when people come in here and ask for advice on dealing with it, to just shrug your shoulders and say "build more marines" helps exactly nothing.There's a lot more to it than that. They need to think about likely places a stargate could be proxied, and then get their marines on an intercept course between where they think the rays are most likely to come.
The key to defeating a void ray rush is at least having some idea that its coming and being ready to hit the rays before they get near your buildings. Once they get charged up, it becomes exponentially more difficult to repel them.
@Munkus - a single missile turret at your mineral line won't do shit. He'll retreat and come at a different angle, and charge up on a refinery or something first, and blow up the missile turret in about three seconds. That's with only two rays too. By the time the two get to your base, the third is on the way, unless his proxied Stargate is really really close.
a short little diddy to the music of Fresh Prince: (Not mine but jesus I wish)
In West Milky Way Born and Raised,
On the Blistering Sands is where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, min/maxing, relaxing all cool
Shootin' some zerglins, outside of my school
But a couple of roaches, they were up to no good.
Started spittin' acid in my neighborhood
Micro'd one little fight, but my zealots got scared.
Said "you're movin' with Jim Raynor to his BC in the air"
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2010
Back in my day void rays had build times and vespene gas costs and you needed to build fucking stargates.
You kids have it so easy these days.
With your viagra pills and your instant void-rections.
Wait, I think I went off on a tangent here.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Also, I got knocked down to Bronze after a losing streak and now that I'm in Bronze I'm playing Gold and some plat dudes and I am winning about even but not going anywhere in my bracket.
NerfThatMan on
PSN: corporateshill
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Controlled for minerals you get 5x1. Controlled for gas is undefined. Controlled for total resources you get 8. Controlled for food you get 3.
So you will win with marines unless you allow him to mass them up until you have equal food of marines and void rays. At any point until then you should be able to match him for total approximate resources.
All this math is pointless. what matters is real world, and so far I have found that once you have three charged void rays in anyone's base, there is very little they can throw against it that will kill them unless they were already massing marines to begin with.
I'll time myself in a custom game sometime, see how long it takes me to get out that second or third void ray, and take a guess at how long it would take a terran player to get enough maines to counter.
Because it might be longer than you think, especially since, unless massing marines was your strategy to begin with, your first rax probably has a tech lab, and maybe even your second one too, and you're not going to even have the slightest inkling of whats happening until you scout their base and see only 1 gateway, double gas, and a cybercore.
First void can get out at a little over 7 minutes if you tech with cannon defense at a choke. That means 3 voids will be all up in your base at 9:30-10min mark depending on map size, proxy and all that jazz.
And if you don't tech with cannon defense at the choke, its significantly faster.
My first ray is usually out around 24-25 supply IIRC. I just have my gateway and cybernetics core blocking my choke with a zealot in the gap, or I just completely block it with my buildings.
I'll time myself against one of the PA guys otnight, see how fast, assuming no early rush from my opponent, I can get two void rays out.
Controlled for minerals you get 5x1. Controlled for gas is undefined. Controlled for total resources you get 8. Controlled for food you get 3.
So you will win with marines unless you allow him to mass them up until you have equal food of marines and void rays. At any point until then you should be able to match him for total approximate resources.
I want to try something against protoss, actually, involving useing reapers AFTER getting a small ground army to defend an expansion. The reapers would be upgraded and sent out right around the time the protoss would be getting a his tech buildings and would focus simply on delaying them, maybe with a sub group attacking his workers.
After that sort of dealy, I should be able to build up a ground army big enough to take out his own.
I think this might be my best macro game yet. I'm still not all that great at scouting smartly, but I simply out paced this player.
JustinSane07 on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2010
If a person has one cybernetics core and one gateway in their base 7 minutes into the game, then I know they are pulling sneaky shit (tm)
And the point of the missile turret is to put the void ray out of position. It might go up against a different building to 'charge up,' but then you aren't losing your SCVs off the bat and you have reaction time to position your units.
Or you can bring in the 'reapers'
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Controlled for minerals you get 5x1. Controlled for gas is undefined. Controlled for total resources you get 8. Controlled for food you get 3.
So you will win with marines unless you allow him to mass them up until you have equal food of marines and void rays. At any point until then you should be able to match him for total approximate resources.
All this math is pointless. what matters is real world, and so far I have found that once you have three charged void rays in anyone's base, there is very little they can throw against it that will kill them unless they were already massing marines to begin with.
I'll time myself in a custom game sometime, see how long it takes me to get out that second or third void ray, and take a guess at how long it would take a terran player to get enough maines to counter.
Because it might be longer than you think, especially since, unless massing marines was your strategy to begin with, your first rax probably has a tech lab, and maybe even your second one too, and you're not going to even have the slightest inkling of whats happening until you scout their base and see only 1 gateway, double gas, and a cybercore.
First void can get out at a little over 7 minutes if you tech with cannon defense at a choke. That means 3 voids will be all up in your base at 9:30-10min mark depending on map size, proxy and all that jazz.
And if you don't tech with cannon defense at the choke, its significantly faster.
My first ray is usually out around 24-25 supply IIRC. I just have my gateway and cybernetics core blocking my choke with a zealot in the gap, or I just completely block it with my buildings.
I'll time myself against one of the PA guys otnight, see how fast, assuming no early rush from my opponent, I can get two void rays out.
I don't see how that defense even works vs. zerg. 1 roach and its gg. 1 maurader? gg. Cannon defense/sentry shield are the only ones that will stop an advance, and sentry shield delays void rays due to their gas cost.
Unless of course your opponent just sees the zlot and runs away like a ninny =p then yeah, you could get it out that early...
Lilnoobs on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
the SCVs aren't the target of a void ray rush.
and reapers can't compete with void rays for destroying bases.
If your answer to a void ray proxy attack is to attempt a base race, you will lose every time without fail.
Edit: unless you meant harassing with the reapers when you know a void ray rush is coming, which can be effective, but once I get my four-five void rays out I don't really care about my base anymore. Void rays build slowly enough that I'll usually end up with a few hundred minerals banked, enough to build a Nexus near my proxy stargate to delay the discovery of it.
Again, to reiterate, I'm not saying that this strategy is foolproof or that a good player won't see it coming and prepare, but my point is that everytime someone comes in here asking for help with void ray proxy attacks, you guys shrug it off as if its the easiest thing in the world to repel which, while it may be true for a good player, isn't very conducive to helping that player improve.
Scouting frequently, knowing what to expect when you see a Gateway and a Cybernetics core and nothing else, and building the appropriate counter unit might be second nature to you, but to many people, thats a whole bunch of new and difficult stuff to do.
a short little diddy to the music of Fresh Prince: (Not mine but jesus I wish)
In West Milky Way Born and Raised,
On the Blistering Sands is where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, min/maxing, relaxing all cool
Shootin' some zerglins, outside of my school
But a couple of roaches, they were up to no good.
Started spittin' acid in my neighborhood
Micro'd one little fight, but my zealots got scared.
Said "you're movin' with Jim Raynor to his BC in the air"
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2010
If your missile base is in the back of your mineral line covering your SCVs, then the guy can't get easy access to your command center either.
And a void ray just plain loves to destroy the SCV line after it has built up its charge.
The point is you disrupt the original attack, get them out of position by a few precious seconds (which are crucial in any rush) then you counter-act it with a sizeable army.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I'm noticing a trend. It seems Munkus can solve nearly every problem with enough reapers.
Talith on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited May 2010
"Munkus what is your strategy this game?"
"I'm going reapers."
"But you did that last game! He'll be expecting it."
*dead serious stare*
But he won't be able to stop it.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
and reapers can't compete with void rays for destroying bases.
If your answer to a void ray proxy attack is to attempt a base race, you will lose every time without fail.
Edit: unless you meant harassing with the reapers when you know a void ray rush is coming, which can be effective, but once I get my four-five void rays out I don't really care about my base anymore. Void rays build slowly enough that I'll usually end up with a few hundred minerals banked, enough to build a Nexus near my proxy stargate to delay the discovery of it.
Again, to reiterate, I'm not saying that this strategy is foolproof or that a good player won't see it coming and prepare, but my point is that everytime someone comes in here asking for help with void ray proxy attacks, you guys shrug it off as if its the easiest thing in the world to repel which, while it may be true for a good player, isn't very conducive to helping that player improve.
Scouting frequently, knowing what to expect when you see a Gateway and a Cybernetics core and nothing else, and building the appropriate counter unit might be second nature to you, but to many people, thats a whole bunch of new and difficult stuff to do.
My idea is more that you can get a good number of reapers, 6-8 probably, just BEFORE the protoss can get a gateway and any number of voids out.
They can then be used to strike at any tech buildings, delaying any starports and maybe killing workers. I think quick teching protoss might be particularly vulnerable to this since their army isn't as mobile as say a zerg army is and it's pretty easy to get a good number of reapers while also expanding and defending with bunkers as terran vs protoss, early on.
So today playing against a friend of mine, I began to wonder, around what time/supply count does it stop being a rush and therefore he cannot be upset that I have decimated him with an army of roaches, hydras and lings? I took him out around the 11 minute mark, and thats where I usually seem to end games... is this frowned upon? Obvously I'm going to try to help him get better and the like (not that I'm any great shakes) but I just don't want to garner a reputation for cheese.
Further, I'm moving on to learning Terrans, just to spice things up from time to time. Anybody have any tips? Obviously based on the past few pages massed marines v a void rush but anything else? Tips on microing my sieges or something? I played a few games against the aforementioned friend and would wall in and build an M&M&M army with decent success, however I find there's alot more to be concerned with in a Terran army than a Zerg one.
And really, if you want to get technical, a rush is probably going to be defined as attacking with the very first few units you have. If they stand around your base for a minute, you can no longer rush.
Edit: I haven't played around with void rays quite enough, but I would think a nice start would be Blizzard making it so they can only charge from enemy units/buildings.
So today playing against a friend of mine, I began to wonder, around what time/supply count does it stop being a rush and therefore he cannot be upset that I have decimated him with an army of roaches, hydras and lings? I took him out around the 11 minute mark, and thats where I usually seem to end games... is this frowned upon? Obvously I'm going to try to help him get better and the like (not that I'm any great shakes) but I just don't want to garner a reputation for cheese.
Further, I'm moving on to learning Terrans, just to spice things up from time to time. Anybody have any tips? Obviously based on the past few pages massed marines v a void rush but anything else? Tips on microing my sieges or something? I played a few games against the aforementioned friend and would wall in and build an M&M&M army with decent success, however I find there's alot more to be concerned with in a Terran army than a Zerg one.
The best way to help him get better is to start rushing the shit out of him. Do the same rush every time, and when that stops working, do another one.
Of course you should explain to him what he's doing wrong for the times that it works, and even the times that it doesn't work. Like his 10 cannons may have stopped it, but that's still the wrong answer.
but really a missile turret is nothing to a charged void ray, let alone 3
Yeah, i think for the most part voids are balanced, but it is total BS how they can fully charge on that scouting supply depot way over at your blind spot, or your destructible rocks, then mosey on over to your main base, keeping their charge, and demolish all your defenses in 2 seconds.
The best part is that there is one of these in SE++ as well, so I have to keep up with two different threads about the same thing but having different conversations at once.
SLyM on
My friend is working on a roguelike game you can play if you want to. (It has free demo)
Posts
First void can get out at a little over 7 minutes if you tech with cannon defense at a choke. That means 3 voids will be all up in your base at 9:30-10min mark depending on map size, proxy and all that jazz.
This is like that replay where the dude has a mothership and twenty carriers in five minutes of the game.
Assuming the Protoss player is dumb enough to put his Stargate inside his base, sure. Otherwise all you see is two assimilators, a single gateway and a cybernetics core. And at the stage of the game that you're at, there's a couple different ways you can go from there.
I'm not trying to say that countering a void ray rush is impossible. All I'm trying to point out is that when people come in here and ask for advice on dealing with it, to just shrug your shoulders and say "build more marines" helps exactly nothing.There's a lot more to it than that. They need to think about likely places a stargate could be proxied, and then get their marines on an intercept course between where they think the rays are most likely to come.
The key to defeating a void ray rush is at least having some idea that its coming and being ready to hit the rays before they get near your buildings. Once they get charged up, it becomes exponentially more difficult to repel them.
@Munkus - a single missile turret at your mineral line won't do shit. He'll retreat and come at a different angle, and charge up on a refinery or something first, and blow up the missile turret in about three seconds. That's with only two rays too. By the time the two get to your base, the third is on the way, unless his proxied Stargate is really really close.
In West Milky Way Born and Raised,
On the Blistering Sands is where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, min/maxing, relaxing all cool
Shootin' some zerglins, outside of my school
But a couple of roaches, they were up to no good.
Started spittin' acid in my neighborhood
Micro'd one little fight, but my zealots got scared.
Said "you're movin' with Jim Raynor to his BC in the air"
get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com
You kids have it so easy these days.
With your viagra pills and your instant void-rections.
Wait, I think I went off on a tangent here.
And if you don't tech with cannon defense at the choke, its significantly faster.
My first ray is usually out around 24-25 supply IIRC. I just have my gateway and cybernetics core blocking my choke with a zealot in the gap, or I just completely block it with my buildings.
I'll time myself against one of the PA guys otnight, see how fast, assuming no early rush from my opponent, I can get two void rays out.
I want to try something against protoss, actually, involving useing reapers AFTER getting a small ground army to defend an expansion. The reapers would be upgraded and sent out right around the time the protoss would be getting a his tech buildings and would focus simply on delaying them, maybe with a sub group attacking his workers.
After that sort of dealy, I should be able to build up a ground army big enough to take out his own.
Secret Satan
And the point of the missile turret is to put the void ray out of position. It might go up against a different building to 'charge up,' but then you aren't losing your SCVs off the bat and you have reaction time to position your units.
Or you can bring in the 'reapers'
I don't see how that defense even works vs. zerg. 1 roach and its gg. 1 maurader? gg. Cannon defense/sentry shield are the only ones that will stop an advance, and sentry shield delays void rays due to their gas cost.
Unless of course your opponent just sees the zlot and runs away like a ninny =p then yeah, you could get it out that early...
and reapers can't compete with void rays for destroying bases.
If your answer to a void ray proxy attack is to attempt a base race, you will lose every time without fail.
Edit: unless you meant harassing with the reapers when you know a void ray rush is coming, which can be effective, but once I get my four-five void rays out I don't really care about my base anymore. Void rays build slowly enough that I'll usually end up with a few hundred minerals banked, enough to build a Nexus near my proxy stargate to delay the discovery of it.
Again, to reiterate, I'm not saying that this strategy is foolproof or that a good player won't see it coming and prepare, but my point is that everytime someone comes in here asking for help with void ray proxy attacks, you guys shrug it off as if its the easiest thing in the world to repel which, while it may be true for a good player, isn't very conducive to helping that player improve.
Scouting frequently, knowing what to expect when you see a Gateway and a Cybernetics core and nothing else, and building the appropriate counter unit might be second nature to you, but to many people, thats a whole bunch of new and difficult stuff to do.
This needs to go in the OP...now.
Steam ID
I'm going to play a couple rounds, anyone here can feel free to add me to their friends list walnutmon.thewise
And a void ray just plain loves to destroy the SCV line after it has built up its charge.
The point is you disrupt the original attack, get them out of position by a few precious seconds (which are crucial in any rush) then you counter-act it with a sizeable army.
"I'm going reapers."
"But you did that last game! He'll be expecting it."
*dead serious stare*
But he won't be able to stop it.
Also, Day9 time in a bit.
My idea is more that you can get a good number of reapers, 6-8 probably, just BEFORE the protoss can get a gateway and any number of voids out.
They can then be used to strike at any tech buildings, delaying any starports and maybe killing workers. I think quick teching protoss might be particularly vulnerable to this since their army isn't as mobile as say a zerg army is and it's pretty easy to get a good number of reapers while also expanding and defending with bunkers as terran vs protoss, early on.
Secret Satan
Further, I'm moving on to learning Terrans, just to spice things up from time to time. Anybody have any tips? Obviously based on the past few pages massed marines v a void rush but anything else? Tips on microing my sieges or something? I played a few games against the aforementioned friend and would wall in and build an M&M&M army with decent success, however I find there's alot more to be concerned with in a Terran army than a Zerg one.
And really, if you want to get technical, a rush is probably going to be defined as attacking with the very first few units you have. If they stand around your base for a minute, you can no longer rush.
Edit: I haven't played around with void rays quite enough, but I would think a nice start would be Blizzard making it so they can only charge from enemy units/buildings.
You mean, time for Day9's stream to crash repeatedly.
:x
The best way to help him get better is to start rushing the shit out of him. Do the same rush every time, and when that stops working, do another one.
Of course you should explain to him what he's doing wrong for the times that it works, and even the times that it doesn't work. Like his 10 cannons may have stopped it, but that's still the wrong answer.
Yeah, i think for the most part voids are balanced, but it is total BS how they can fully charge on that scouting supply depot way over at your blind spot, or your destructible rocks, then mosey on over to your main base, keeping their charge, and demolish all your defenses in 2 seconds.
this is so me right now.
thought it was pretty funny
I'm only silver, but I'll play ya.
gotta get the forum apm up
I build a probe and send my six starting probes to minerals with a perfect split cos im that good.
yeah, and you're losing to me right now! HAHA
>send my proxy dts to ur base
>kekekeke
edit: >kill michelle