I just hope that there's actually a reason for most armor-making professions to reach the skill cap. As it stands, there's no real reason for my Rogue to take his Leatherworking past 430 or my Paladin to :effort: those last ten points of Blacksmithing. Aside from a bunch of ilvl 200 junk and some cheapo drums, there's just nothing of real worth at the cap to make unless I run a boatload of ToC25 or ICC25 for their randomly-dropped (or in ICC's case, hideously expensive) patterns.
That's not particularly true though. When I was a fresh 80, I farmed mats for and had titansteel gear crafted. Hell, the spiked titansteel helm was better than the 10 man t7 helms for some people, and the titansteel destroyer was used by many a fresh 80. Just because now that ilvl 200 gear is outdated due to normal modes like ToC/ICC 5 mans doesn't mean they were always worthless.
Also, every raid tier has introduced new 450 patterns that are always very good. The ToC patterns accounted for several BiS items when they came out, and the ICC patterns are really good now too.
So yeah, there's plenty of reason to go to 450 in your professions.
I know you mentioned having to run the raids for the patterns, but that's like saying it's pointless to level to 80, because soon you'll have all the gear you can get from badges and heroics and then it's worthless to play unless you want to run those pesky raids.
I'm pretty sure many (if not all) of the ToC patterns are also not BoP. I managed to snag the Saronite Swordbreakers recipe for my Warrior alt (Blacksmith) relatively cheap on the AH. Given that it's allowed me to equip both my Warrior and DK with very good ilvl 232 bracers (since neither spends much time in raids) and allows me to craft for guildies and tips I'd say it was worth it.
The benefits of min maxing your professions is very minor, and will become even less evident in Cata. Unless you are the hardest of the hardcore raiders you should definitely go with whatever professions you enjoy the most.
Bzzzt. The difference between min/maxing your professions is absolutely massive for most classes. A mining and skinning rogue is going to have very different gear choices due to missing around 120 points of certain stats.
You and I have a major disconnect on this, and it's not worth arguing over. I stand by my statement.
I don't know if you can call numerical differences a "disconnect." :P
Fact is, tanks who max JCing are in a much better position at the highest levels of the game, where everyone can get any piece of gear, and gems and enchants become actually consequential. I'm not saying having the +crit bonus from Master of Anatomy, or better JC-only gems will make or break an attempt on H-LK25, but min-maxing is all about increasing those buffer zones, and preventing things like 1% wipes.
Here's the disconnect:
He says taking sub-optimal tradeskills results in missing stat points.
I say that there's nothing missing, taking tradeskills results in additional points as a bonus. Taking specific trades can be optimal for various classes, and two tradeskills in particular give the highest bonus of all, in compensation for their comparative difficulty in learning them.
We are not going to agree on this, it is a disagreement born of fundamentally different values and play styles. Yours isn't "better" than mine, it's different than mine.
I just hope that there's actually a reason for most armor-making professions to reach the skill cap. As it stands, there's no real reason for my Rogue to take his Leatherworking past 430 or my Paladin to :effort: those last ten points of Blacksmithing. Aside from a bunch of ilvl 200 junk and some cheapo drums, there's just nothing of real worth at the cap to make unless I run a boatload of ToC25 or ICC25 for their randomly-dropped (or in ICC's case, hideously expensive) patterns.
That's not particularly true though. When I was a fresh 80, I farmed mats for and had titansteel gear crafted. Hell, the spiked titansteel helm was better than the 10 man t7 helms for some people, and the titansteel destroyer was used by many a fresh 80. Just because now that ilvl 200 gear is outdated due to normal modes like ToC/ICC 5 mans doesn't mean they were always worthless.
Also, every raid tier has introduced new 450 patterns that are always very good. The ToC patterns accounted for several BiS items when they came out, and the ICC patterns are really good now too.
So yeah, there's plenty of reason to go to 450 in your professions.
I know you mentioned having to run the raids for the patterns, but that's like saying it's pointless to level to 80, because soon you'll have all the gear you can get from badges and heroics and then it's worthless to play unless you want to run those pesky raids.
It's not so much the fact that the patterns exist as much as the fact that you can't reasonably get them from 10-man raiding. I'm fairly well-off gold-wise, but not so well off that I can just drop 1600g for BoE ToC25 plans or a ridiculous sum for Primordial Saronite for the ICC stuff.
And yes, the Titansteel stuff would've been a fantastic incentive to get to 80 back when Ulduar was the bee's knees, but I'm talking about how things are now, not nearly a year ago. As it stands now there's not much of a great incentive to push to 450 with my Paladin's Blacksmithing.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
He says taking sub-optimal tradeskills results in missing stat points.
I say that there's nothing missing, taking tradeskills results in additional points as a bonus. Taking specific trades can be optimal for various classes, and two tradeskills in particular give the highest bonus of all, in compensation for their comparative difficulty in learning them.
We are not going to agree on this, it is a disagreement born of fundamentally different values and play styles. Yours isn't "better" than mine, it's different than mine.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
If you show up to ElitistJerks or TankSpot or something and make a post asking how you can improve as a tank, people are going to Armory you and the first thing they'll tell you is to max JCing and Mining. JCing gets you better stam gems, and Mining gets you Rank 6 Toughness, which is +60 stam.
Not taking and maxing those two professions means you're not doing everything you can to "maximize" your character, which is the name of the game at that level of play.
So yes, from that paradigm, bonuses from professions are something mandatory, and not just icing on the cake. You might disagree, but I doubt folks who're downing Heroic Lich King 25 do.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
I like the idea of max level giving you faster crafting. God knows I've spent ages waiting for that goddamn bar to reach the end, if I go through the trouble of maxing out my profession at the very least it could move a little faster.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
What was that terrible Pool of Radiance D&D game that deleted your root file if you tried to uninstal it? Yeah, those disks can be safely burned.
Ah, another victim of that game. It corrupted my registry when I un-installed it. First and only time I've ever been forced to re-format my PC. As soon as I unlocked the Carl Gustav in BAD COMPANY 2 I used it to launch my copy of POOLS OF RADIANCE into the sun.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
25 but IIRC the last name on the 'owner' has to be the same.
It is. Thank you
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jackalFuck Yes. That is an orderly anal warehouse.Registered Userregular
edited May 2010
All three professions will create their starter sets of PVP gear, which will be upgraded with new recipes every season. In general, these are meant to keep pace as an entry-level PvP set below whatever the current Hero Point set is.
Nice, 187 blues are a joke at this point.
New unique material used by nearly all high-level recipes will be created by alchemists on a one-day cooldown.
25 but IIRC the last name on the 'owner' has to be the same.
It is. Thank you
Keep in mind that doesn't include a realm change or anything like that.
Yeah. I am thinking about taking one of my wifes toons as an alt since she does not play anymore. I don't know if it's worth just using two account or xfering the toon to my account.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited May 2010
That Demon Hunter stuff reminds me, hasn't Blizzard already told us that the next prestige class will be the Archdruid ? That would certainly tie neatly into an Emerald Dream expansion.
What if it's like an evolution type deal sorta like RO. You have a 80 druid, and you can rebirth it as an archdruid for some reason....
I still want blademasters. Attacks for warriors is not enough for me.
See this I want, and it would bring me back (like every new addition does): a mail wearing, two handing using, melee class whose banners or flags or whatever those things on their backs are determine function and buffs. Sort of like stances.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet that if they ever add a new class it will be the rune caster or whatever the hell they were called and they will be a melee healer akin to the DoK/Runepriest from Warhammer.
If I were a betting man, I'd bet that if they ever add a new class it will be the rune caster or whatever the hell they were called and they will be a melee healer akin to the DoK/Runepriest from Warhammer.
Well when making the Deathknight class they actually combined two other potential hero classes at the time, Runemaster and Necromancer. I guess they have a decent size pool of potential classes they throw around, but the trouble is actually finding a place for them. But since Runemaster was already put in, in a manner of speaking, I don't think we'll be seeing them.
Also for some reason I want in game housing. And not instanced crap. I want to place my house somewhere in the world. And be able to buy bigger ones. But only 1 house, and maybe a stable for mounts to chill when I'm not using them as opposed to in some box where they just have an icon.
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
edited May 2010
You know what I'd like to see ? A Monk type class, a cloth-wearing melee specialist with Spirit as its key rating, finally giving that danged attribute some utility. It would be the inverse of the heavily armored warrialadinknight wielding a giant phallic symbol.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
What if it's like an evolution type deal sorta like RO. You have a 80 druid, and you can rebirth it as an archdruid for some reason....
I still want blademasters. Attacks for warriors is not enough for me.
See this I want, and it would bring me back (like every new addition does): a mail wearing, two handing using, melee class whose banners or flags or whatever those things on their backs are determine function and buffs. Sort of like stances.
I think they'll eventually have to go this route if they want to add more hero classes. Right now trying to add another hero class would be problematic since most of their abilities have already been incorporated into the game in some fashion.
But if they added some sort of mastery path that you could unlock for your existing class...that could work.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
"Casual" is a term that can mean different things to different people. You seem to define it by hours per week. I would say that a guild which requires not only a particular spec, but particular tradeskills is in fact not casual at all.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
"Casual" is a term that can mean different things to different people. You seem to define it by hours per week. I would say that a guild which requires not only a particular spec, but particular tradeskills is in fact not casual at all.
Alot of times, the more hardcore the raiders, the less time they spend playing.
Log on, Raid, do some daily shit or whatever, log off.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited May 2010
If they do another hero class, it will be a healer for sure. My guess is that they'll do an Emerald Dream expansion and then have some variation on the Arch-Druid as a class (probably with a different name to avoid confusion)
What if it's like an evolution type deal sorta like RO. You have a 80 druid, and you can rebirth it as an archdruid for some reason....
I still want blademasters. Attacks for warriors is not enough for me.
See this I want, and it would bring me back (like every new addition does): a mail wearing, two handing using, melee class whose banners or flags or whatever those things on their backs are determine function and buffs. Sort of like stances.
I think they'll eventually have to go this route if they want to add more hero classes. Right now trying to add another hero class would be problematic since most of their abilities have already been incorporated into the game in some fashion.
But if they added some sort of mastery path that you could unlock for your existing class...that could work.
I liked when that was the idea that (I think) Blizzard was toying with when starting the concept with Death Knights. Early alpha? or pre-alpha concepts were that you were going to take one of your characters, do an epic story line, and convert it into a Death Knight.
Actually, now that I think about it some more, I think that it was mentioned a couple of years ago in a Blizzcon during one of their presentations for Wrath... Not sure. I just remember it was brought up, and then people were like "ooooh that's awesome." And then they made it so that you have to have just a level 55 character somewhere and you get one for free.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
"Casual" is a term that can mean different things to different people. You seem to define it by hours per week. I would say that a guild which requires not only a particular spec, but particular tradeskills is in fact not casual at all.
Right, that's not my argument. Your statement that the difference between tradeskills is minor is very, very false. The fun factor may be different for you, on a personal level, but the differences are in no way minor. Some are great for stats, some are better for cash, some are worthless entirely.
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
"Casual" is a term that can mean different things to different people. You seem to define it by hours per week. I would say that a guild which requires not only a particular spec, but particular tradeskills is in fact not casual at all.
Alot of times, the more hardcore the raiders, the less time they spend playing.
Log on, Raid, do some daily shit or whatever, log off.
I'm not making value judgements on how people play. I am saying that for the average player, choosing tradeskills based on what appeals to you will prove more enjoyable than leveling a tradeskill because it offers a somewhat better statistical bonus than one you might otherwise prefer.
Yet strangely, this is a highly controversial opinion.
Yeah, I had NO professions on my level 80 DK raiding character back when I still played, and my guild was more 'hardcore', but they didn't require the min/max thing.
I think there's a bit of a spectrum when it comes to tradeskills.
Pick one that one like and that provides a benefit to your class (ie - don't go taloring if you are a warrior) and you'll be fine.
The difference between having a decent but not 100% optimal set of tradeskills and a 100% optimal set of tradeskills is pretty minor from a stat point of view and often pretty major from a "not a pain in the ass" point of view.
It's like Mining/BS vs JC/BS. One of these is only ever so slightly better then the other. But that ever so slightly better one is 1000x more annoying to level up.
I was Mining/JC for the longest time but picked up BS in place of Mining when we started being able to 2 tank some of the 3 tank fights and I could cat it up. The difference between mining and BS for a cat is pretty large: 2 extra sockets is the difference between wearing a shitty trinket for the extra ArP or wearing a nice one.
We don't specify which tradeskills people need to be, but they can't be two gathering professions. We have engineers and all that stuff. People are given guild bank cash (in addition to repairs, flasks, pots given weekly) when they join to get better professions. If people refuse, they don't get any of it. We have a cat druid that is herbalism/inscription who refuses to change on the basis that he can make more cash herbing Ulduar and doesn't need anything from the gbank.
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I'm pretty sure many (if not all) of the ToC patterns are also not BoP. I managed to snag the Saronite Swordbreakers recipe for my Warrior alt (Blacksmith) relatively cheap on the AH. Given that it's allowed me to equip both my Warrior and DK with very good ilvl 232 bracers (since neither spends much time in raids) and allows me to craft for guildies and tips I'd say it was worth it.
Here's the disconnect:
He says taking sub-optimal tradeskills results in missing stat points.
I say that there's nothing missing, taking tradeskills results in additional points as a bonus. Taking specific trades can be optimal for various classes, and two tradeskills in particular give the highest bonus of all, in compensation for their comparative difficulty in learning them.
We are not going to agree on this, it is a disagreement born of fundamentally different values and play styles. Yours isn't "better" than mine, it's different than mine.
It's not so much the fact that the patterns exist as much as the fact that you can't reasonably get them from 10-man raiding. I'm fairly well-off gold-wise, but not so well off that I can just drop 1600g for BoE ToC25 plans or a ridiculous sum for Primordial Saronite for the ICC stuff.
And yes, the Titansteel stuff would've been a fantastic incentive to get to 80 back when Ulduar was the bee's knees, but I'm talking about how things are now, not nearly a year ago. As it stands now there's not much of a great incentive to push to 450 with my Paladin's Blacksmithing.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
I was speaking specifically in the context of bleeding-edge raiding. I'll explain it from the point-of-view of a tank, because that's the role I've been playing most lately.
If you show up to ElitistJerks or TankSpot or something and make a post asking how you can improve as a tank, people are going to Armory you and the first thing they'll tell you is to max JCing and Mining. JCing gets you better stam gems, and Mining gets you Rank 6 Toughness, which is +60 stam.
Not taking and maxing those two professions means you're not doing everything you can to "maximize" your character, which is the name of the game at that level of play.
So yes, from that paradigm, bonuses from professions are something mandatory, and not just icing on the cake. You might disagree, but I doubt folks who're downing Heroic Lich King 25 do.
Then you failed to read my initial post, where I specifically addressed my advice to those who are merely casual raiders, if they raid at all.
Everyone min-maxes somewhat, but only hardcore raiders take it to the degree you concern yourself with, and I am not amongst you, and don't offer you advice.
It is. Thank you
Nice, 187 blues are a joke at this point.
cha-ching
Keep in mind that doesn't include a realm change or anything like that.
Yeah. I am thinking about taking one of my wifes toons as an alt since she does not play anymore. I don't know if it's worth just using two account or xfering the toon to my account.
I still want blademasters. Attacks for warriors is not enough for me.
See this I want, and it would bring me back (like every new addition does): a mail wearing, two handing using, melee class whose banners or flags or whatever those things on their backs are determine function and buffs. Sort of like stances.
buy warhams
LoL: failboattootoot
Well when making the Deathknight class they actually combined two other potential hero classes at the time, Runemaster and Necromancer. I guess they have a decent size pool of potential classes they throw around, but the trouble is actually finding a place for them. But since Runemaster was already put in, in a manner of speaking, I don't think we'll be seeing them.
I would say a mail or leather caster class than can tank, heal, or dps.
We are a casual guild @ 11/12 heroic 25 on only 6-9 hours per week. We require min/maxing.
I think they'll eventually have to go this route if they want to add more hero classes. Right now trying to add another hero class would be problematic since most of their abilities have already been incorporated into the game in some fashion.
But if they added some sort of mastery path that you could unlock for your existing class...that could work.
"Casual" is a term that can mean different things to different people. You seem to define it by hours per week. I would say that a guild which requires not only a particular spec, but particular tradeskills is in fact not casual at all.
Make a Paladin only 'crafting' profession called Sanctify or something, that allows them to convert it into plate.
Alot of times, the more hardcore the raiders, the less time they spend playing.
Log on, Raid, do some daily shit or whatever, log off.
I liked when that was the idea that (I think) Blizzard was toying with when starting the concept with Death Knights. Early alpha? or pre-alpha concepts were that you were going to take one of your characters, do an epic story line, and convert it into a Death Knight.
Actually, now that I think about it some more, I think that it was mentioned a couple of years ago in a Blizzcon during one of their presentations for Wrath... Not sure. I just remember it was brought up, and then people were like "ooooh that's awesome." And then they made it so that you have to have just a level 55 character somewhere and you get one for free.
Right, that's not my argument. Your statement that the difference between tradeskills is minor is very, very false. The fun factor may be different for you, on a personal level, but the differences are in no way minor. Some are great for stats, some are better for cash, some are worthless entirely.
I'm not making value judgements on how people play. I am saying that for the average player, choosing tradeskills based on what appeals to you will prove more enjoyable than leveling a tradeskill because it offers a somewhat better statistical bonus than one you might otherwise prefer.
Yet strangely, this is a highly controversial opinion.
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Pick one that one like and that provides a benefit to your class (ie - don't go taloring if you are a warrior) and you'll be fine.
The difference between having a decent but not 100% optimal set of tradeskills and a 100% optimal set of tradeskills is pretty minor from a stat point of view and often pretty major from a "not a pain in the ass" point of view.
It's like Mining/BS vs JC/BS. One of these is only ever so slightly better then the other. But that ever so slightly better one is 1000x more annoying to level up.
If I could take engineering twice per character, I would.
I absolutely care about getting the optimal stuff, but only insofar as I do not sacrifice the funny stuff. I min/max hilarity.
We don't specify which tradeskills people need to be, but they can't be two gathering professions. We have engineers and all that stuff. People are given guild bank cash (in addition to repairs, flasks, pots given weekly) when they join to get better professions. If people refuse, they don't get any of it. We have a cat druid that is herbalism/inscription who refuses to change on the basis that he can make more cash herbing Ulduar and doesn't need anything from the gbank.