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The Tragic Death of the Western [Anime Industry]

1356711

Posts

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Ouran dub is fantastic by the way, but I thought they did a respectable job with the subtitles.

    By the way that's a good show to bring up when talking about the economics of the western Anime industry.

    It wasn't a huge smash hit for Funimation but it does anchor their channel's broadcast, the entire thing is available for free on their website and even with all this it managed to be one of their more profitable ventures of the past few years.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • BiopticBioptic Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Ouran dub is fantastic by the way, but I thought they did a respectable job with the subtitles.

    By the way that's a good show to bring up when talking about the economics of the western Anime industry.

    It wasn't a huge smash hit for Funimation but it does anchor their channel's broadcast, the entire thing is available for free on their website and even with all this it managed to be one of their more profitable ventures of the past few years.

    At least in the UK, they also had the interesting move of selling 26 episodes in 2 very reasonably-priced sets. Which means that you're not asking people for a huge lump sum for something they're unsure about, but neither are you giving fantastically bad value for a disc with 3 episodes on it.

    And it's not that the subtitles were terrible - more that I felt they were less expressive than the fansubs I'd encountered. It's really just that it's again somewhat of an unknown quantity when buying anime - even for a series that you know and like, the aspect that's arguably most important to enjoying it is entirely variable.

    Bioptic on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    @AngelHedgie:
    I know what the freerider problem and for the purposes of this particular line of conversation I will stipulate to such things as being an accurate representation of the issues. My question is: so what? How does the hypothetical victory of convincing people to stop infringing become any less empty or Pyrrhic in light of those facts? If everyone stopped downloading tomorrow but did not change anything else in their behaviour there is no benefit to the content creators.

    The important thing for sustaining business is making sales, and if you're going to try moralsiing or reasoning with the hoi polloi then those energies are best spent begging/commanding/bargaining for/reasoning toward people spending money, not stopping downloads.

    And I utterly fail to see how the humble bundle demonstrates anything of the sort. It is, afterall, considered to be a great success by Rosen and other participants.

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • Mortal SkyMortal Sky queer punk hedge witchRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I remember there were a few really cool stores in my old mall before the anime market crashed. Now they're gone. Yes, the anime market could once support three stores in one mall. Now the only anime store around my area is a piece of crap that only survived because it's a CCGer's den as well.

    That said, anime DVD prices have gotten better but holy shit old DVDs are still exorbitant. My favorite anime ever runs 80 bucks for 13 episodes. I still plan on picking it up when I have 80 free dollars, oddly enough. Note that said series, Haibane Renmei, has been long out of print, so 80 bucks actually isn't too bad.

    Mortal Sky on
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Mortal Sky wrote: »
    I remember there were a few really cool stores in my old mall before the anime market crashed. Now they're gone. Yes, the anime market could once support three stores in one mall. Now the only anime store around my area is a piece of crap that only survived because it's a CCGer's den as well.

    That said, anime DVD prices have gotten better but holy shit old DVDs are still exorbitant. My favorite anime ever runs 80 bucks for 13 episodes. I still plan on picking it up when I have 80 free dollars, oddly enough. Note that said series, Haibane Renmei, has been long out of print, so 80 bucks actually isn't too bad.
    are you sure it's not just the overall economy that's to blame for the anime stores closing? I know that when I'm tight on money I don't like to go splashing around money on DVDs.

    Pi-r8 on
  • agoajagoaj Now is the time of my revengeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Viz has been updating subbed Naruto on Hulu only 1 week behind the Japanese airing. Is that working out for them? Does any other company do it that close?

    agoaj on
    qnu0EMk.png
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I am always flabbergasted when IP types say "You are stealing and you should stop." as if that would solve anything.

    The important thing is not to get people to stop downloading, but to get people to start buying. Of course, that means instead of saying "THIEF! ARSEHOLE! JERK!" you have to say "Please buy more of the stuff you like from me and give me money so I can make more stuff."

    And when they say fuck you, then what? Look at what happened with the Humble Bundle.
    If they say fuck you then you're in no different a situation than you are, apparently, in at the current time?
    Like, even if you succeed in convincing people not to infringe, then what? That doesn't, in and of itself, provide any more money.
    On the other hand, even if people download the same amount of stuff, but are convinced to buy more by your wheedling tone, sophisticated appeals or proud exhortations/whatever else to buy more stuff, then you are in a better position than you were before.

    And the Humble Bundle? You mean "Turn out fairly successfully"?

    Did they ever find out how many were kids without credit cards?

    I like the "They could have asked their parents" comment.

    Cantido on
    3DS Friendcode 5413-1311-3767
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    edited May 2010
    FUNimation is running Full Metal Alchemist a week delayed, and I believe there are a couple anime being released at the same pace. Both show up fairly high on the Hulu list of popular stuff, but I have no idea if they are actually making any money off it.

    redx on
    This machine kills threads.
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    @AngelHedgie:
    I know what the freerider problem and for the purposes of this particular line of conversation I will stipulate to such things as being an accurate representation of the issues. My question is: so what? How does the hypothetical victory of convincing people to stop infringing become any less empty or Pyrrhic in light of those facts? If everyone stopped downloading tomorrow but did not change anything else in their behaviour there is no benefit to the content creators.

    The important thing for sustaining business is making sales, and if you're going to try moralsiing or reasoning with the hoi polloi then those energies are best spent begging/commanding/bargaining for/reasoning toward people spending money, not stopping downloads.

    And I utterly fail to see how the humble bundle demonstrates anything of the sort. It is, afterall, considered to be a great success by Rosen and other participants.

    Piracy and legal sales are clearly substitutes. If you shut down the piracy, there will be more sales. Anything else is just wishful thinking and rationalizing your copyright infringement.

    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    enc0re on
  • AvicusAvicus Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    @AngelHedgie:
    I know what the freerider problem and for the purposes of this particular line of conversation I will stipulate to such things as being an accurate representation of the issues. My question is: so what? How does the hypothetical victory of convincing people to stop infringing become any less empty or Pyrrhic in light of those facts? If everyone stopped downloading tomorrow but did not change anything else in their behaviour there is no benefit to the content creators.

    The important thing for sustaining business is making sales, and if you're going to try moralsiing or reasoning with the hoi polloi then those energies are best spent begging/commanding/bargaining for/reasoning toward people spending money, not stopping downloads.

    And I utterly fail to see how the humble bundle demonstrates anything of the sort. It is, afterall, considered to be a great success by Rosen and other participants.

    Piracy and legal sales are clearly substitutes. If you shut down the piracy, there will be more sales. Anything else is just wishful thinking and rationalizing your copyright infringement.

    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    I agree. A lot of people take their fansubs and piracy for granted these days and think that they would never buy it so its ok for them to download it. But before there was an option to download things you actually considered buying it anyway.

    Avicus on
    stephen_coop.gifkim_coop.gifscott_guitar.gif
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    It's not like you're gonna guy 300 episodes of anime at 30$ for a dvd of 3 episodes. Pirating that much is easy, though.

    Pi-r8 on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    @AngelHedgie:
    I know what the freerider problem and for the purposes of this particular line of conversation I will stipulate to such things as being an accurate representation of the issues. My question is: so what? How does the hypothetical victory of convincing people to stop infringing become any less empty or Pyrrhic in light of those facts? If everyone stopped downloading tomorrow but did not change anything else in their behaviour there is no benefit to the content creators.

    The important thing for sustaining business is making sales, and if you're going to try moralsiing or reasoning with the hoi polloi then those energies are best spent begging/commanding/bargaining for/reasoning toward people spending money, not stopping downloads.

    And I utterly fail to see how the humble bundle demonstrates anything of the sort. It is, afterall, considered to be a great success by Rosen and other participants.

    Piracy and legal sales are clearly substitutes. If you shut down the piracy, there will be more sales. Anything else is just wishful thinking and rationalizing your copyright infringement.

    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    Regarding point one, there might be a subset of people who pirate who would otherwise buy. This however, is a small subset by the sheer principles of economics - very few could possibly purchase everything that they have the capacity to download. The kicker is that per capita we now spend more money on entertainment than ever before, just not through the traditional mediums of shiny discs be they for videos or music. In fact, given the signal to noise ratio the hypothetical increase in sales from the aforementioned subset it would not surprise me if those gains were nearly completely offset or perhaps even overtaken by those who try before they buy.

    Regardless, the point remains that it's still not the fact that people are experiencing the content without paying that is the issue, because if they didn't experience it then they wouldn't be paying at all and the same issues of investment vs return occurs. It all comes back to the fact that focusing on infringement is missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of whether pirated copies compete with licensed content the important thing is still getting people to buy more, not controlling access to content.

    If 200,000 people access content through unlicensed means and no people purchase then those who would speculate upon such ventures are at an equal disadvantage is no one accessed the content and no-one paid.

    Likewise, if 200,000 pay and no one accesses the content through unlicensed channels you're no better off than if 200,000 pay and 2,000,000 access the content through unlicensed channels.

    Regarding your second point: welcome to the magic of economics, once you no longer have a captive market and your consumers have more options you can't charge a premium price. I put it to you that piracy or not, paying twenty-five dollars for an episode of anything, in the age on the internet, hulu, netflix and the tubes in general is impossible. This is not a bad thing, and pushing an implicitly anti-technology barrow is ridiculous.

    As for justifying or rationalising things: you're barking up the wrong appeal to moral authority there. As I have stated in the Copyfight thread, I believe that - at worst - infringing on intellectual property is morally neutral. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing whatsoever to justify. I was merely pointing out an economic irrationality. It should be noted that I am entirely capable of separating arguments of what makes good or poor business sense from the morality of IP legistlation. I do not intend my contributions to this thread to be a defense of the copyleft nor a criticism of the copyright - they are not, in any way. The criticism of economic strategy stands regardless of the strength of one's position on IP (whether for or against).

    I'm in favour of people making money from their intellectual and creative labours, this is not the same thing as being in favour of IP Legislation. Once again, I am capable of separating the two issues which are so often conflated

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    That's not to say fansubbing doesn't have its own set of problems. This guy has a lot of good points

    At the same time a lot of it is just stuff he doesn't like. I, for example, really like the subtitles from films like Night Watch - where they try to fit them into the scene in an awesome way - and I don't mind explanatory notes at all. He's saying a lot of things are objectively bad when it's more just "find the subbing group that makes subs you can deal with".

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • FalxFalx Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Oh man I'm so used to not seeing an Anime thread on the front page I keep missing this.

    It's especially difficult getting anything bought legally down here, bootlegged DVD's are a thriving niche business and the authorities just don't know what to look for.

    And some companies are taking the subtitle only route, to my immense joy... although the few shows they've done that way aren't well known and can be hard to get. Like ARIA.

    ARIA is so good by the way, I am legally and morally required to plug this at least once a week somewhere.

    I believe I recently read somewhere the ugly ass yellow/white "official" subtitles are from industry regulations? I mentioned this to a friend of mine and he wondered if it would push up the cost much if they offered a high-res, colour-coded for each character, with good positioning separate subtitle track as an "extra."

    Sounded like an idea to me.

    Falx on
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    enc0re wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    @AngelHedgie:
    I know what the freerider problem and for the purposes of this particular line of conversation I will stipulate to such things as being an accurate representation of the issues. My question is: so what? How does the hypothetical victory of convincing people to stop infringing become any less empty or Pyrrhic in light of those facts? If everyone stopped downloading tomorrow but did not change anything else in their behaviour there is no benefit to the content creators.

    The important thing for sustaining business is making sales, and if you're going to try moralsiing or reasoning with the hoi polloi then those energies are best spent begging/commanding/bargaining for/reasoning toward people spending money, not stopping downloads.

    And I utterly fail to see how the humble bundle demonstrates anything of the sort. It is, afterall, considered to be a great success by Rosen and other participants.

    Piracy and legal sales are clearly substitutes. If you shut down the piracy, there will be more sales. Anything else is just wishful thinking and rationalizing your copyright infringement.

    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    Regarding point one, there might be a subset of people who pirate who would otherwise buy. This however, is a small subset by the sheer principles of economics - very few could possibly purchase everything that they have the capacity to download. The kicker is that per capita we now spend more money on entertainment than ever before, just not through the traditional mediums of shiny discs be they for videos or music. In fact, given the signal to noise ratio the hypothetical increase in sales from the aforementioned subset it would not surprise me if those gains were nearly completely offset or perhaps even overtaken by those who try before they buy.

    Regardless, the point remains that it's still not the fact that people are experiencing the content without paying that is the issue, because if they didn't experience it then they wouldn't be paying at all and the same issues of investment vs return occurs. It all comes back to the fact that focusing on infringement is missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of whether pirated copies compete with licensed content the important thing is still getting people to buy more, not controlling access to content.

    If 200,000 people access content through unlicensed means and no people purchase then those who would speculate upon such ventures are at an equal disadvantage is no one accessed the content and no-one paid.

    Likewise, if 200,000 pay and no one accesses the content through unlicensed channels you're no better off than if 200,000 pay and 2,000,000 access the content through unlicensed channels.

    Regarding your second point: welcome to the magic of economics, once you no longer have a captive market and your consumers have more options you can't charge a premium price. I put it to you that piracy or not, paying twenty-five dollars for an episode of anything, in the age on the internet, hulu, netflix and the tubes in general is impossible. This is not a bad thing, and pushing an implicitly anti-technology barrow is ridiculous.

    As for justifying or rationalising things: you're barking up the wrong appeal to moral authority there. As I have stated in the Copyfight thread, I believe that - at worst - infringing on intellectual property is morally neutral. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing whatsoever to justify. I was merely pointing out an economic irrationality. It should be noted that I am entirely capable of separating arguments of what makes good or poor business sense from the morality of IP legistlation. I do not intend my contributions to this thread to be a defense of the copyleft nor a criticism of the copyright - they are not, in any way. The criticism of economic strategy stands regardless of the strength of one's position on IP (whether for or against).

    I'm in favour of people making money from their intellectual and creative labours, this is not the same thing as being in favour of IP Legislation. Once again, I am capable of separating the two issues which are so often conflated

    Obviously I agree with you that the viability of the industry depends on the amount of legal sales, not the amount of illegal downloads. However, reading your long post, I believe the following hypotheses separate our positions.

    Your hypothesis:
    If piracy ceased, legal sales would be unaffected at best, decrease at worst. This is equivalent to saying that downloads and purchases are complements.

    My hypothesis:
    If piracy ceased, legal sales would increase. This is equivalent to saying that downloads and purchases are substitutes.

    If I have characterized your position correctly (please correct me, if I'm wrong), it strikes me as wishful thinking. If piracy and legal sales were complements, sales should be through the roof in the age of the torrent.

    enc0re on
  • JintorJintor Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Piracy is comprised of both substitutes and complements. Some piracy happens regardless. Some piracy happens because it's more convenient than buying it; but if it were more convenient to buy it than to pirate, it would be bought.

    Jintor on
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Jintor wrote: »
    Piracy is comprised of both substitutes and complements. Some piracy happens regardless. Some piracy happens because it's more convenient than buying it; but if it were more convenient to buy it than to pirate, it would be bought.

    You have contradicted yourself in only three sentences, sentences 1 and 3 to be precise. That has to be some sort of record.

    enc0re on
  • JintorJintor Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    You can't just wave your hand and say ALL PIRACY IS THIS, because it's not.

    Jintor on
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Jintor wrote: »
    You can't just wave your hand and say ALL PIRACY IS THIS, because it's not.

    Of course not. But we can talk about aggregate effects, because those are what matter.

    enc0re on
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I would say that for a subset of the population piracy represents complementary goods, some it represents substitute goods. For the vast majority it represents neither. I have no idea about how the elimination of piracy would affect sales, except for that effect being minimal regardless of direction.

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I would say that for a subset of the population piracy represents complementary goods, some it represents substitute goods. For the vast majority it represents neither. I have no idea about how the elimination of piracy would affect sales, except for that effect being minimal regardless of direction.

    But what's the channel for this? Try before you buy?

    enc0re on
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Why don't they put more anime on iTunes? I doubt I'll ever buy a Doctor Who DVD, due to their exorbitant price, but I'm buying individual episodes on iTunes the day they come out.

    I'll admit that I watch fansubs. However, I'd rather watch shows on things like Hulu or iTunes. Their services are often more convenient. For example, now that Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood is on Hulu, would you rather watch it there or on some random website with a MegaVideo link?

    Hexmage-PA on
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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    I would say that for a subset of the population piracy represents complementary goods, some it represents substitute goods. For the vast majority it represents neither. I have no idea about how the elimination of piracy would affect sales, except for that effect being minimal regardless of direction.

    But what's the channel for this? Try before you buy?

    Again, it depends.

    Some, yes, try before buying. Some like to have physical things because they like physical things. Some see them as status symbols. Some are desperate for ways to interact with the things they love and will buy anything they can once they are a fan in order to support the project and have a feeling of interaction, however small and brief that may be. Some are just super-keen to experience the content and it's a stopgap measure until they get the definitive version.

    It depends, there are lots of things that motivate people to buy, and to do so even when they have an unlicensed copy available.

    Apothe0sis on
    Tide goes in. Tide goes out.
    Es-annon NEVA 4GET
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The problem is that piracy doesn't equate to 100% lost sales, but neither does it equal zero percent of lost sales. The problem comes in estimating the number in between.

    Then again close to 100% of pirates, whether they would have bought the show if there were no alternative or not, will come up with some sort of bullshit rationalization for their actions.

    cloudeagle on
    Switch: 3947-4890-9293
  • tallgeezetallgeeze Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    I admit I haven't purchased a DVD in very long time, but it was due to steep prices for only a small amount of episodes. The latest boxsets I have seen seem priced right, but I would only limit myself to the 12-26 episode series.

    Has the industry done a better job of setting prices or getting more bang for you buck for series like One Piece or Naruto? I would jump on chance to own One Piece completely, but the sheer amount of episodes is the only thing that holds me back.

    Also, is there a viable way to market these type of series? The only thing I can compare them to stateside would be a Law & Order which has been on the air for past two decades. I believe that show makes most of it's money with syndication.

    tallgeeze on
  • LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    I'm sorry but this is absolutely insane. I wouldn't pay $25 an episode ever, especially not for a show I've never seen before. I paid $80 for a Neon Genesis Evangelion box set and slightly less for Rah Xephon and those costs were hard to swallow even though I've watched and absolutely loved both.

    And you paid $650?! Jesus Christ man, I realize I'm pretty relatively poor as a student here but that's just insanity. The number of paperback novels, computer games, movie tickets or whatever entertainment you prefer that represents is staggering. For one season.

    Piracy is a substitute to watching anime on TV or Hulu, etc. and a compliment to buying DVDs. It's pretty simple, DVDs are a collectible. Anyone who buys DVDs to watch something for the first time has money to burn and I'm not sure they're an appropriate example of the average consumer.

    Lanlaorn on
  • JaysonFourJaysonFour Classy Monster Kitteh Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    If we could get a damned anime channel that you can get with the first or second level of cable TV (instead of them ending up buried in the upper packages with the movie channels), making it a lot more mainstream, then we'd get more and better product.

    The problem with mainstream anime is we've managed to get it classified as kids' stuff- Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon, Naruto... it's at the point where they run anything not meant for grade-schoolers after midnight or on a specialized channel that you need the Super Ultra Massive $300-a-month Bundle from Comcast to get.

    JaysonFour on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    First Anime I got into was The Guyver, 15 years ago. I remember buying it 1 episode/VHS at a time, for $25 each at the local fantasy store. Never would I have spent that money as a 13 year old, had P2P existed.

    I'm sorry but this is absolutely insane. I wouldn't pay $25 an episode ever, especially not for a show I've never seen before. I paid $80 for a Neon Genesis Evangelion box set and slightly less for Rah Xephon and those costs were hard to swallow even though I've watched and absolutely loved both.

    And you paid $650?! Jesus Christ man, I realize I'm pretty relatively poor as a student here but that's just insanity. The number of paperback novels, computer games, movie tickets or whatever entertainment you prefer that represents is staggering. For one season.

    Piracy is a substitute to watching anime on TV or Hulu, etc. and a compliment to buying DVDs. It's pretty simple, DVDs are a collectible. Anyone who buys DVDs to watch something for the first time has money to burn and I'm not sure they're an appropriate example of the average consumer.

    It's the very first Anime I ever saw. Would I do it again? No. But I was using it to illustrate a point. Even at $25, some will buy episodes. But with piracy available? No.

    enc0re on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Regarding point one, there might be a subset of people who pirate who would otherwise buy. This however, is a small subset by the sheer principles of economics - very few could possibly purchase everything that they have the capacity to download.

    And this justifies piracy how? If I can't afford a certain level of consumption, I lower my consumption to a level I can afford. Not exactly hard to understand.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    The kicker is that per capita we now spend more money on entertainment than ever before, just not through the traditional mediums of shiny discs be they for videos or music. In fact, given the signal to noise ratio the hypothetical increase in sales from the aforementioned subset it would not surprise me if those gains were nearly completely offset or perhaps even overtaken by those who try before they buy.

    Prove it. Because I can prove that even when you remove all the rationalizations people give for piracy, a significant number will continue to do so.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Regardless, the point remains that it's still not the fact that people are experiencing the content without paying that is the issue, because if they didn't experience it then they wouldn't be paying at all and the same issues of investment vs return occurs. It all comes back to the fact that focusing on infringement is missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of whether pirated copies compete with licensed content the important thing is still getting people to buy more, not controlling access to content.

    Note the section I highlighted. This is one of the big problems with piracy - the creator is forced to compete with someone who is using the work they made, meaning that they're competing against the same good, but with someone who has no sunk costs.

    Which is sort of hard to do, if you've gained a basic understanding of market dynamics.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    If 200,000 people access content through unlicensed means and no people purchase then those who would speculate upon such ventures are at an equal disadvantage is no one accessed the content and no-one paid.

    Likewise, if 200,000 pay and no one accesses the content through unlicensed channels you're no better off than if 200,000 pay and 2,000,000 access the content through unlicensed channels.

    Actually, they are better off, because you're no longer dealing with the corrosive effect of the free rider problem. You live and die on your own merits, not because someone took what you made and undercut you with it.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Regarding your second point: welcome to the magic of economics, once you no longer have a captive market and your consumers have more options you can't charge a premium price. I put it to you that piracy or not, paying twenty-five dollars for an episode of anything, in the age on the internet, hulu, netflix and the tubes in general is impossible. This is not a bad thing, and pushing an implicitly anti-technology barrow is ridiculous.

    There is a vast difference between the market rejecting a premium price for a good because their are other alternatives, and people using technology and a lack of empathy for creators to drive the price to zero. Furthermore, one of the great hypocrisies of piracy is denying the free rider effect in the world at large while taking aggressive measures to combat it in the community.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    As for justifying or rationalising things: you're barking up the wrong appeal to moral authority there. As I have stated in the Copyfight thread, I believe that - at worst - infringing on intellectual property is morally neutral. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing whatsoever to justify. I was merely pointing out an economic irrationality. It should be noted that I am entirely capable of separating arguments of what makes good or poor business sense from the morality of IP legistlation. I do not intend my contributions to this thread to be a defense of the copyleft nor a criticism of the copyright - they are not, in any way. The criticism of economic strategy stands regardless of the strength of one's position on IP (whether for or against).

    I'm in favour of people making money from their intellectual and creative labours, this is not the same thing as being in favour of IP Legislation. Once again, I am capable of separating the two issues which are so often conflated

    The problem is that your morality ends up becoming a tautology. And the fact is that the economics and morality are very much intertwined - intellectual property is ultimately the product of some person's labor and time. Trying to avoid that little fact makes your morality suspect.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    JaysonFour wrote: »
    If we could get a damned anime channel that you can get with the first or second level of cable TV (instead of them ending up buried in the upper packages with the movie channels), making it a lot more mainstream, then we'd get more and better product.

    The problem with mainstream anime is we've managed to get it classified as kids' stuff- Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon, Naruto... it's at the point where they run anything not meant for grade-schoolers after midnight or on a specialized channel that you need the Super Ultra Massive $300-a-month Bundle from Comcast to get.

    It's the beer cooler problem. Look at the channels in the lower tier - you'll quickly notice that they're all owned by one of the major conglomerates(Disney, News Corp, Viacom, or Time Warner.) They effectively crowd out smaller players for those slots.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    JaysonFour wrote: »
    If we could get a damned anime channel that you can get with the first or second level of cable TV (instead of them ending up buried in the upper packages with the movie channels), making it a lot more mainstream, then we'd get more and better product.

    The problem with mainstream anime is we've managed to get it classified as kids' stuff- Yu-Gi-Oh!, Pokemon, Naruto... it's at the point where they run anything not meant for grade-schoolers after midnight or on a specialized channel that you need the Super Ultra Massive $300-a-month Bundle from Comcast to get.

    It's the beer cooler problem. Look at the channels in the lower tier - you'll quickly notice that they're all owned by one of the major conglomerates(Disney, News Corp, Viacom, or Time Warner.) They effectively crowd out smaller players for those slots.

    What ever happened to the U.S. auctioning off the rest of the newly available frequencies?

    Cantido on
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  • Donkey KongDonkey Kong My lit AF posts will leave you shook Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    The problem is that piracy doesn't equate to 100% lost sales, but neither does it equal zero percent of lost sales. The problem comes in estimating the number in between.

    Then again close to 100% of pirates, whether they would have bought the show if there were no alternative or not, will come up with some sort of bullshit rationalization for their actions.

    "I wasn't willing to pay for the shows because I do not have the money or they are not worth it to me, but it was easy enough to watch anyway without causing harm (theft) so I did."

    That's a rationalization and it's not at all bullshit. It does undermine the rationalization for intellectual property law though.

    Donkey Kong on
    Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    The problem is that piracy doesn't equate to 100% lost sales, but neither does it equal zero percent of lost sales. The problem comes in estimating the number in between.

    Then again close to 100% of pirates, whether they would have bought the show if there were no alternative or not, will come up with some sort of bullshit rationalization for their actions.

    "I wasn't willing to pay for the shows because I do not have the money or they are not worth it to me, but it was easy enough to watch anyway without causing harm (theft) so I did."

    That's a rationalization and it's not at all bullshit. It does undermine the rationalization for intellectual property law though.

    irresponsibility03.jpg

    AngelHedgie on
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The corollary to that is that the presence or absence of any given raindrop is also totally irrelevant to the flood.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    The corollary to that is that the presence or absence of any given raindrop is also totally irrelevant to the flood.

    Except that in the absence of any raindrops, there is no flood.

    You're not a special snowflake, stop acting like one.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Except that in the absence of any raindrops, there is no flood.

    You're not a special snowflake, stop acting like one.

    Right. And when I control the other raindrops that might be relevant.

    But I don't. I control me. And my actions do not affect the outcome in any measurable sense. :)

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Except that in the absence of any raindrops, there is no flood.

    You're not a special snowflake, stop acting like one.

    Right. And when I control the other raindrops that might be relevant.

    But I don't. I control me. And my actions do not affect the outcome in any measurable sense. :)

    Let me guess - you believe your vote doesn't matter, either.

    AngelHedgie on
    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Let me guess - you believe your vote doesn't matter, either.

    Indeed.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    Let me guess - you believe your vote doesn't matter, either.

    Indeed.

    That pretty much says it all. Here's a hint - you're wrong on both counts.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck the search for the means to put an end to things an end to speech is what enables the discourse to continue ~ * ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) excelsior * ~Registered User regular
    edited May 2010
    That pretty much says it all. Here's a hint - you're wrong on both counts.

    You're free to explain why. In fact, I could run through the last election with and without my vote and you can show to me the difference it would have made.

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
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