I managed to get everything I wanted out of an upgrade by switching to Ubuntu Linux. I wanted away from XP, so my options were Ubuntu, OSX, or Vista.
I do like OSX, and I use it when I steal my girlfriends laptop, but I couldn't justify the asking price for the hardware. I personally think Apple makes really good quality stuff that's worth the asking price, but it's a little more than I could afford at the time.
Vista doesn't offer anything (that I'm interested in, this is a personal opinion) that Ubuntu doesn't, and is massively more expensive. It also has some really irritating drawbacks like product activation. Something about having to ask permission to reinstall my OS really doesn't sit right for me.
This does mean that I'm pretty much abandoning future PC gaming, though I'm keeping an XP partition around for the moment. Since I don't have to connect it to the internet, maintenance becomes a lot easier and I don't have to worry about Virus or Spyware protection and I can use AutopatcherXP instead of Windows Update.
tl;dr: I'd use Apple hardware if I could afford it, because it's particularly nice. Vista is too expensive for the new features I'd actually use. Ubuntu Linux gives me everything I want for free.
Having played on both Vista and OS X, I think the differences are pretty minimal, or will be once Vista is released properly and gets actual drivers.
Putting it in car terms...
They are both shiny, curvy, modern. Both run pretty well. OS X comes with leather seats as standard, but you can have them put in Vista easily enough. OS X is an automatic whilst Vista is a manual. Other than that they are pretty similar.
There is only one question I ever ask when it comes to Linux or OSX, does it finally run games yet? Until then, it doesn't matter what it does because a cuter UI is not worth the bullshit of bootcamp or emulator programs.
Speaking of bootcamp, I reboot my windows machine once every 3-4 months. I consider that luxury and stability and could never imagine rebooting everytime I wanted to play a game. And why do this? Has nobody ever heard of 3rd party shells? Then you don't have to deal with retarded crap like rebooting to play a game. Granted, 3rd party shells require some technical knowledge, but so does going from 1 OS you are familiar with to a completely new one.
And then there is the application argument, the supposed 86 applications for windows when there is 1 superior product for apple. Ok, apparently competition evades you? Honestly, I'd love to see someone sit down and really hash out exactly what applications are better on each OS. Because frankly, someone who uses mac often is going to talk about some cool catalogueing program or whatnot, but probably has no idea what equivalents are out there for the PC and visa versa. I'd love to have a personal windows application comeback for the catalogueing example but frankly, I can't even think of when I'd use that program. At one point I had a program to catalogue CDs which started out like a good idea and quickly became a "why the fuck am I wasting my time on this?" scenario.
Obviously I understand the whole "I don't play PC games angle" and that makes sense.
Personally, I find Windows XP sufficiently frustrating that it's not worth putting up with day-to-day for the sake of gaming. It works fine as a glorified launcher, and that seems to be the direction Microsoft is pushing the Windows OS. They seem to want to make the computer more appliance-like.
I also prefer Linux because I do Web development, so the software I use most often is written for Linux/BSD, and ported to Windows. Getting Apache or a decent Database server working properly on XP is a chore. I suspect it would be easier if I used Win 2000 or Server 2003, but I don't want to drop the cash when there's a free alternative that I have no problem with.
The best way I can think to summarise my relative experience with XP and Linux is that Windows is easy to get going, but a pain to maintain, Linux is (in some cases) tougher to get going, but once configured will be perfectly happy to run with minimal intervention. I just want an OS that works, and doesn't require constant tweaking.
Getting Apache or a decent Database server working properly on XP is a chore. I suspect it would be easier if I used Win 2000 or Server 2003, but I don't want to drop the cash when there's a free alternative that I have no problem with.
Hmh, I can get Apache and MySQL (or Oracle) database properly running on Windows XP under 10 mins, 15 if I'm lazy.
What was frustrating with windows from a day to day perspective and a pain to maintain?
You need to run anti-virus and anti-malware software, and keep them up to date.
The wireless configuration utility that's bundled with Windows kept hijacking* my connection settings which killed my connection every time it happened, because it didn't have the WEP key.
User permissions and services on XP seem to follow some bizzare and twisted logic of their own**.
I got hit with Starforce (from trackmania nations, I think), which meant both my DVD-RW and CD-RW wouldn't burn discs that were readable in any other machine, the removal tool didn't help.
I had to keep IE hanging around to use Windows update (until I discovered Autopatcher) which would, for no readily apparent reason, change all my filetype associations at random times. WMP does the same thing.
Sometimes I'd get that irritating "what do you want Windows to do now?" pop-up on media insertion, sometimes I wouldn't, the "always do the selected action" option didn't seem to do anything.
I've never managed to get Windows network shares to work correctly. I'll set them up, and they'll work. Then they'll stop working when nothings been changed. Then they'll work again with no intervention.
Product activation is a massive arse-pain, and vaguely insulting.
Every so often my default printer would change, again for no readily apparent reason.
The Windows GUI seems to handle paging to disk really, really badly. I have 2GB of RAM, but minimising an application still causes the machine too freeze up for a couple of seconds while the desktop refreshes itself three or four times.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, most of the problems I have stem from the fact that configuration settings won't "stick."
*I was using the software that came with the adapter, because both the adapter and the access point were made by 3Com, and there's a couple of handy features that the 3Com software gives you.
**Trying to run Apache or Postgres without opening up the whole box is extremely troublesome.
The best way I can think to summarise my relative experience with XP and Linux is that Windows is easy to get going, but a pain to maintain, Linux is (in some cases) tougher to get going, but once configured will be perfectly happy to run with minimal intervention.
Man, we have completely opposite experiences then. Both Windows and Linux distros tend to be trivial to get running these days (unless you're running brand spanking new hardware, in which case there's a 50% chance you'll have major issues getting it working in Linux :?), but Linux is just so... much... work.
Admittedly, this is reduced dramatically with user-friendly distros like Ubuntu/Kubuntu (<3), but it's still there. Despite stereotypes, Windows applications tend to Just Work. You install them and you run them, happy days; they may clutter up your system just a fraction more, bringing it closer to Nuke And Pave stage, but they do work.
Trying to get media applications to work in Linux tends to be closer to pulling teeth at times, especially when it comes to codecs or random crashes. The problems I've had over the years ranged from Kaffeine crashing with each start (still clueless), X locking up (problems with nVidia cards running in NV mode), mouse pointer disappearing (nVidia issue with choosing the incorrect X session to assign it to when switching from one to the other when using graphical booting), GUI user -- super user verification not working (completely random), update completely utterly fucking up my config files and making the system unbootable without intervention (thanks, Gentoo, you son of a whore), to botched installs where my MBR got wiped (ah, the old days of LILO) or the system incorrectly detecting my HD cylinders, 'fixing' the problem and killing Windows, to the filesystem randomly corrupting itself into a kernel panic during a random reboot,...
This is ignoring issues like GAIM always (always) starting to lose messages after a couple of days of use, the inconsistent mishmash of UI design between applications and other non-critical annoyances.
I develop software in Linux for a living, and I know and appreciate and use the system's strengths (my router is an old Linux box running Debian), but Jesus, it just drives me bonkers as a desktop machine.
The best way I can think to summarise my relative experience with XP and Linux is that Windows is easy to get going, but a pain to maintain, Linux is (in some cases) tougher to get going, but once configured will be perfectly happy to run with minimal intervention.
Man, we have completely opposite experiences then. Both Windows and Linux distros tend to be trivial to get running these days (unless you're running brand spanking new hardware, in which case there's a 50% chance you'll have major issues getting it working in Linux :?), but Linux is just so... much... work.
I'll admit that my experiences don't seem to be the norm. Ubuntu was easier to get from install->usable desktop for me than XP, mostly because all my hardware (except my wireless card) was recognised and installed automatically. I just had to re-install the wireless driver, add a couple of repositories, fire up synaptic and select the software I wanted. Hit apply and .. done.
Xp needed a lot more drivers, and I had to manually run Autopatcher and the installers for all the software I wanted. It's not significantly more effort, it just felt more time-consuming and less pleasant. I think I have some issues with XP defaulting to what I think of as "newbie mode" where every trivial event fires up a helpful wizard to baby you through the process of, say, configuring autorun.
I'll also admit that I don't use my desktop machine for media, except mp3s. I use XBMC hooked to my TV, which handles everything I can throw at it.
Getting Apache or a decent Database server working properly on XP is a chore. I suspect it would be easier if I used Win 2000 or Server 2003, but I don't want to drop the cash when there's a free alternative that I have no problem with.
Hmh, I can get Apache and MySQL (or Oracle) database properly running on Windows XP under 10 mins, 15 if I'm lazy.
I could get it working, but I was never confident enough to open it to the Internet at large. I've never been able to wrap my head round the necessary permissions voodoo to protect the rest of the machine.
My experience with ubuntu was installing it and everything worked like it should. Installing Beryl, graphic drivers and video codecs was all pretty easy to setup as well.
If WINE ran Tiberian Sun at a decent speed and there would be an easy up to date guide to recompiling the kernel with support for IP over firewire, I probably wouldn't have formatted and reinstalled Windows.
Installing XP takes a lot more time, but I install lots of stuff that's not really needed.
Based on your list, you switched from XP to Linux because of bad user experiences not standard windows day to day useage. No reason to waste time going through those point by point because you are probably happy right where you are, but the reality is that you didn't have a normal functioning OS and now you do (regardless of what that OS is), that is your biggest change.
Based on your list, you switched from XP to Linux because of bad user experiences not standard windows day to day useage. No reason to waste time going through those point by point because you are probably happy right where you are, but the reality is that you didn't have a normal functioning OS and now you do (regardless of what that OS is), that is your biggest change.
This is very true. My point of contention with Windows is that, in my experience, it's impossible to fix something in Windows and have it stay fixed. The cynic in me is compelled to point out that if I went for "the complete Microsoft experience" ie. only using the products that are either part of Windows or made by Microsoft I probably wouldn't have had most of those problems.
Based on your list, you switched from XP to Linux because of bad user experiences not standard windows day to day useage. No reason to waste time going through those point by point because you are probably happy right where you are, but the reality is that you didn't have a normal functioning OS and now you do (regardless of what that OS is), that is your biggest change.
This is very true. My point of contention with Windows is that, in my experience, it's impossible to fix something in Windows and have it stay fixed. The cynic in me is compelled to point out that if I went for "the complete Microsoft experience" ie. only using the products that are either part of Windows or made by Microsoft I probably wouldn't have had most of those problems.
You also wouldn't've been able to do a lot of what you wanted, as Microsoft relies on 3rd parties for a lot of their software. Still, and I'm sure you'll agree, it's nice to be on an OS that doesn't have "format and reinstall" as something users actually consider as a worthwhile fix.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I the new Visual Studio lineup.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
You also wouldn't've been able to do a lot of what you wanted, as Microsoft relies on 3rd parties for a lot of their software. Still, and I'm sure you'll agree, it's nice to be on an OS that doesn't have "format and reinstall" as something users actually consider as a worthwhile fix.
Format and reinstall is only a "worthwhile fix" in the world of untechnical support where it is easier to have retard_001 rebuild than try to attempt to solve their issue. The same person who would rebuild a windows machine would throw their hands up in the air if they ever had a problem with Linux. And speaking of rebuilds, what the hell is a kernel recompile? Those seem to be awfully more common than any rebuilds I've ever done on my windows machine considering the only reason I've ever had to rebuild in the last 6+ years is for motherboard + additional hardware complete swap outs. And out of those hardware upgrades, most of them were due for a new OS anyways.
Microsoft relies on 3rd parties for a lot, just like Linux or anyone else does. Or is all of Linux's open source packages considered 1st party now? Anyways, yes, you wouldn't have much with just Microsoft software involved, that wasn't the point I was getting at and saw no reason to correct japan. The point was that your machine is only as stable as your applications regardless of whether they are first or 3rd party. You can't just blame microsoft if you install gator. Obviously japan didn't install gator, but he installed something that was of poor enough quality to cause issues and instead of troubleshooting what that might be he switched operating platforms. Which I think is fine, but I also don't believe was the only or quickest route to stability.
@japan:
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
He is using Linux IIRC. But it also has virus scanners for it. Basically, he is choosing to accept the risk in Linux but not in Windows because Windows is a primary target due to the massive userbase.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I the new Visual Studio lineup.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
There was one proof-of-concept virus a couple of years ago, but it actually required users to run the file, and even then, did pretty much nothing.
And before I hear "userbase to small, no one wants to write a virus lolz", keep in mind that the first person who does successfully write a virus that has an actual effect would gain fame and notoriety. The reason there aren't viruses is because the UNIX/BSD framework OS X is running on is rock-solid and secure.
And I can see why PC users would feel insulted by those Mac commercials, but after using XP for years, they give me a good laugh.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I the new Visual Studio lineup.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
That's not true. Just because you can't be affected by viruses doesn't mean that you can't spread them to other people some way or another.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I the new Visual Studio lineup.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
That's not true. Just because you can't be affected by viruses doesn't mean that you can't spread them to other people some way or another.
I know enough that this won't be happening, and has never happened.
My grandmother's iMac is dead. Won't turn on. I can't figure out why. This was after I diagnosed and replaced the CMOS battery a few times which was now obviously a symptom of a larger problem.
I can't just fix this thing from parts at Frys and it is far out of warranty.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
That's not true. Just because you can't be affected by viruses doesn't mean that you can't spread them to other people some way or another.
I know enough that this won't be happening, and has never happened.
Not to you maybe, but that doesn't mean there's no reason for everyone else to run anti-virus programs on their macs. It's not really a huge reason to, but it is a reason
And Vista's far more than a reskin, when I tested it in the public betas (or whatever it was) I ran it in classic, and I still noticed tons of differences.
I think I should mention that I ran my first virus scan in like nine months the other day and it came up with nothing. And my spyware scan came up with a bunch of non-threatening cookies.
As long as you're not a dumbass, use Firefox or IE7, and run behind a firewall, Windows is perfectly safe.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
It does seem to be an unusual experience, certainly. I'm not suggesting that anyone who uses Windows will have the same experiences I did. XP was a massive improvement over previous versions of Windows, and it is very stable. Most of my issues are to do with (fairly minor) UI configuration issues. In some ways I think I'm a victim of my own bloody-mindedness, in that it bugs the crap out of me when settings unexpectedly revert to defaults that I don't like.
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that Windows is trying to force me to use IE, WMP and the Windows wireless configuration utility as part of Microsoft's world domination plans, but it's most likely something to do with registry settings going weird and default settings being loaded in their place.
Obviously japan didn't install gator, but he installed something that was of poor enough quality to cause issues and instead of troubleshooting what that might be he switched operating platforms. Which I think is fine, but I also don't believe was the only or quickest route to stability.
Starforce, starforce, lol.
You are right about the third party software, but my XP install was/is stable, it's configuration things and UI conventions that bugged me. I also have a philosophical disagreement with Microsoft about where the OS should end and applications should begin, and Vista pushes Windows further away from what I'd ideally want.
Ultimately, I don't think I'm a typical case. I learned to use a computer with an Amiga, and Windows conventions have never sat right with me (plus its taken 20 years for Microsoft to catch up with the hardware accelerated GUI idea). I had experimentally moved to Linux a couple of times before, but there have always been deal-breaking flaws that have prevented me using it as a primary desktop. Now I've either accomodated those problems (gaming) or moved those functions to another device (media), there's no reason for me to keep Windows around anymore.
It does seem to be an unusual experience, certainly. I'm not suggesting that anyone who uses Windows will have the same experiences I did. XP was a massive improvement over previous versions of Windows, and it is very stable. Most of my issues are to do with (fairly minor) UI configuration issues. In some ways I think I'm a victim of my own bloody-mindedness, in that it bugs the crap out of me when settings unexpectedly revert to defaults that I don't like.
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that Windows is trying to force me to use IE, WMP and the Windows wireless configuration utility as part of Microsoft's world domination plans, but it's most likely something to do with registry settings going weird and default settings being loaded in their place.
Settings that don't stick bug the hell out of me too. But here is a tidbit of what I was originally going to write in my post but decided not to attempt to fix problems you don't actually have anymore. Microsoft Windows Wireless Config has a very specific checkbox that is easy to miss to tell it not try to use it's own program to configure wireless. Trust me, I ran into the same thing with logitech's own program. Although, the reality is that if you don't need the extra features, the windows wireless program actually runs a lot more smoothly than 3rd party programs.
And for the associations, sometimes windows associations get corrupted or at least microsoft feels they are corrupted because the registry setting is no longer something that is expected, some 3rd party application has modified the HKEY classes in an incorrect manner. When this happens, you actually have to go into windows explorer/file associations and the "advanced" button has usually been replaced with a "restore" button. Clicking that restore button changes them back to default (a good feature) but also makes them properly modifiable once again so that a program that does work correctly can take that association away from whatever the default or corrupted state once was. Also, you have to be careful of applications that "monitor" their associations, Quicktime is by far the worst, in that if you just re-associate the extension to another program without first de-associating it with these programs that monitor, they will go and reset them back on you.
Edit: And starforce is basically a company backed destructive virus. Lucky it's reputation is destroying it.
@japan:
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I the new Visual Studio lineup.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
I've been running Windows XP from RC1, and before that Windows 2000 since, well, 2000. I've never owned nor installed an antivirus program. My system is still virus-free, and will be for years to come until it gets replaced again.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on Windows (unless you put viruses on your computer).
I know I will get someone coming in here and yelling at me about how "they didn't do anything wrong" and they got a virus. Guess what? If you got a virus, then you did something wrong. They don't happen via telepathy.
I harbored great malice for windows.
i think that XP solved a lot of problems.
now it is simply disdain.
but the thing is, i use my comp for audio purposes. vista will apperently be good for pro audio, but even XP isnt so great. OS X has its issues, but they tend to be small specific things.
i don't evangelicize, but i do end up defending the mac platform a lot.
here is a story:
(before i begin; on OS 9, you had to allocate RAM to programs. it was an application property and was pretty simple to change if you had administrative privileges.)
now, the story.
i needed to make a flyer for a show i was doing. i went to SDSU library to use their computers since i didnt have illustrator. i like macs, so i found one and went to work. illustrator froze. it froze in a very specific way which made me think it didnt have enough RAM allocated to it. lo and behold, 32MB. i ask the lab aide who has admin privileges and if they could just quickly fix a problem.
he comes over to 'figure out what is wrong' (I just told him.) and as i try to reiterate, he tells me it's freezing because macs suck, cant run illustrator properly, and that i should just use a windows comp.
and he is the friggin lab aide.
Sul on
Who is the mortal I see every morning with more than a little bit he must be important
Nintendo Friend Code: SW-0689-9921-0006
I think people will use what the want but it's fun to argue.
This is why people cheer for sports teams, no rational reason to go for one or the other.
I think this is pretty much a dead on answer to why people argue about this.
I run Linux at home... mostly for fun, but also 'cause I've only got 128Meg of RAM and I'm to lazy to buy more. XP at work because we've got a lot of Windows only apps we run. I break the home machine all the time because I tinker with it. The work ones haven't given us any trouble though. XP isn't nearly as bad of as most Linux and OSX users would want you to think.
Actually, the easiest way to get a virus without doing anything is through a backdoor. So usually when a MAJOR critical backdoor is found, it is a good thing to run a web based scan after installing the critical patch.
I tend to run a web based scan after every major virus epidemic, which don't come around very often, once in a good 6 months or so. Just to be on the safe side.
I know I will get someone coming in here and yelling at me about how "they didn't do anything wrong" and they got a virus. Guess what? If you got a virus, then you did something wrong. They don't happen via telepathy.
i think this is true as of XP some revision or other.
before that...not so much. i know someone who laughed at the fact that he could make a webpage that gave you a virus. just by navigating to the website.
Sul on
Who is the mortal I see every morning with more than a little bit he must be important
Nintendo Friend Code: SW-0689-9921-0006
I harbored great malice for windows.
i think that XP solved a lot of problems.
now it is simply disdain.
but the thing is, i use my comp for audio purposes. vista will apperently be good for pro audio, but even XP isnt so great. OS X has its issues, but they tend to be small specific things.
i don't evangelicize, but i do end up defending the mac platform a lot.
here is a story:
(before i begin; on OS 9, you had to allocate RAM to programs. it was an application property and was pretty simple to change if you had administrative privileges.)
now, the story.
i needed to make a flyer for a show i was doing. i went to SDSU library to use their computers since i didnt have illustrator. i like macs, so i found one and went to work. illustrator froze. it froze in a very specific way which made me think it didnt have enough RAM allocated to it. lo and behold, 32MB. i ask the lab aide who has admin privileges and if they could just quickly fix a problem.
he comes over to 'figure out what is wrong' (I just told him.) and as i try to reiterate, he tells me it's freezing because macs suck, cant run illustrator properly, and that i should just use a windows comp.
and he is the friggin lab aide.
Uh... no offense, but if a program can't dynamically allocate memory to itself then the OS pretty much does suck. Also that non-preempting thing kinda hurt it.
like or dislike macs, there's nobody in the world who could sanely claim that OS X wasn't a gigantic leap past OS 9.
I know I will get someone coming in here and yelling at me about how "they didn't do anything wrong" and they got a virus. Guess what? If you got a virus, then you did something wrong. They don't happen via telepathy.
i think this is true as of XP some revision or other.
before that...not so much. i know someone who laughed at the fact that he could make a webpage that gave you a virus. just by navigating to the website.
Stop using IE. Stop visiting disreputable websites. I don't understand how this is so confusing.
And just to clear something up: Assume that all internet porn contains viruses. That will go a long way toward keeping your computer virus free.
I harbored great malice for windows.
i think that XP solved a lot of problems.
now it is simply disdain.
but the thing is, i use my comp for audio purposes. vista will apperently be good for pro audio, but even XP isnt so great. OS X has its issues, but they tend to be small specific things.
i don't evangelicize, but i do end up defending the mac platform a lot.
here is a story:
(before i begin; on OS 9, you had to allocate RAM to programs. it was an application property and was pretty simple to change if you had administrative privileges.)
now, the story.
i needed to make a flyer for a show i was doing. i went to SDSU library to use their computers since i didnt have illustrator. i like macs, so i found one and went to work. illustrator froze. it froze in a very specific way which made me think it didnt have enough RAM allocated to it. lo and behold, 32MB. i ask the lab aide who has admin privileges and if they could just quickly fix a problem.
he comes over to 'figure out what is wrong' (I just told him.) and as i try to reiterate, he tells me it's freezing because macs suck, cant run illustrator properly, and that i should just use a windows comp.
and he is the friggin lab aide.
Uh... no offense, but if a program can't dynamically allocate memory to itself then the OS pretty much does suck. Also that non-preempting thing kinda hurt it.
like or dislike macs, there's nobody in the world who could sanely claim that OS X wasn't a gigantic leap past OS 9.
change "leap past" to "change from". A lot of people still prefer os 9
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
I had a great moment yesterday when the new "PCs have to strap on unyieldy camera peripherals" commercial came on. I happened to be setting up my new HP dv6000t, and was staring right at the integrated camera.
Those commercials are kinda fun, though. They usually crack me up for some reason or another. I also don't think they help Mac in the long run, as trying to coerce consumers by insulting previous choices never gets anywhere.
I'm not suggesting that anyone who uses Windows will have the same experiences I did.
I didn't mean to imply that. It just seemed almost impossible with the amount of love I have for XP.
I will concede that folder settings (view as pictures, thumbnails, details, etc.) will occasionally change without any obvious reason to. I haven't had a need to correct it, since I can navigate the various views equally well.
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that Windows is trying to force me to use IE, WMP and the Windows wireless configuration utility as part of Microsoft's world domination plans,
I probably agree with this more. I thought XP was sorta pushy at first. However, I was under the impression that Apple is even worse about its requirement of dedication to first-party practically-built-in utilities. Is the third-party Mac market pretty robust?
As an aside, what are dev tools like on Mac? I already 'd Visual Studio, but I can't emphasize enough how easy it is to use. I never got to use a Mac in a development role, but I was curious as to how it plays out.
it's configuration things and UI conventions that bugged me.
Is it anything in particular? Maybe I'm just keyed well enough into Windows these days that the flaws are transparent to me, but XP works out pretty well for me. The only time I had a problem was trying to uninstall Vista and finding out they have a replacement for boot.ini. FixMBR resolved it, but it was quite a surprise.
I also have a philosophical disagreement with Microsoft about where the OS should end and applications should begin, and Vista pushes Windows further away from what I'd ideally want.
I certainly can't argue with that. I wouldn't mind hearing more about your opinions on this issue, but I don't think this is the thread for that.
John Hodgman is fantastic. I love whenever he's on This American Life. I hate that other dork, though. Go play hackysack in the quad, you stupid neo-hippie.
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
I had a great moment yesterday when the new "PCs have to strap on unyieldy camera peripherals" commercial came on. I happened to be setting up my new HP dv6000t, and was staring right at the integrated camera.
Those commercials are kinda fun, though. They usually crack me up for some reason or another. I also don't think they help Mac in the long run, as trying to coerce consumers by insulting previous choices never gets anywhere.
"I'm going in for major surgery because like most PCs I'll need to have almost all my components replaced just so's I can run Vista." my ass. My 2 year old computer was running Vista just fine.
You'll need an Intel based Mac if you want to run any of the new software coming out from major companies, but you don't really ever get to hear John Hodgeman throw that back in the kid's face.
Also, I love the irony of the new one where there's PC and some guy who's dressed as Mac that PC uses as a straw man to make fun of the mac until the mac comes back and is all like "what's this then?" It's like watching System Wars on TV.
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I do like OSX, and I use it when I steal my girlfriends laptop, but I couldn't justify the asking price for the hardware. I personally think Apple makes really good quality stuff that's worth the asking price, but it's a little more than I could afford at the time.
Vista doesn't offer anything (that I'm interested in, this is a personal opinion) that Ubuntu doesn't, and is massively more expensive. It also has some really irritating drawbacks like product activation. Something about having to ask permission to reinstall my OS really doesn't sit right for me.
This does mean that I'm pretty much abandoning future PC gaming, though I'm keeping an XP partition around for the moment. Since I don't have to connect it to the internet, maintenance becomes a lot easier and I don't have to worry about Virus or Spyware protection and I can use AutopatcherXP instead of Windows Update.
tl;dr: I'd use Apple hardware if I could afford it, because it's particularly nice. Vista is too expensive for the new features I'd actually use. Ubuntu Linux gives me everything I want for free.
Putting it in car terms...
They are both shiny, curvy, modern. Both run pretty well. OS X comes with leather seats as standard, but you can have them put in Vista easily enough. OS X is an automatic whilst Vista is a manual. Other than that they are pretty similar.
Speaking of bootcamp, I reboot my windows machine once every 3-4 months. I consider that luxury and stability and could never imagine rebooting everytime I wanted to play a game. And why do this? Has nobody ever heard of 3rd party shells? Then you don't have to deal with retarded crap like rebooting to play a game. Granted, 3rd party shells require some technical knowledge, but so does going from 1 OS you are familiar with to a completely new one.
And then there is the application argument, the supposed 86 applications for windows when there is 1 superior product for apple. Ok, apparently competition evades you? Honestly, I'd love to see someone sit down and really hash out exactly what applications are better on each OS. Because frankly, someone who uses mac often is going to talk about some cool catalogueing program or whatnot, but probably has no idea what equivalents are out there for the PC and visa versa. I'd love to have a personal windows application comeback for the catalogueing example but frankly, I can't even think of when I'd use that program. At one point I had a program to catalogue CDs which started out like a good idea and quickly became a "why the fuck am I wasting my time on this?" scenario.
Obviously I understand the whole "I don't play PC games angle" and that makes sense.
Typo. I meant MediaMan.
http://www.imediaman.com/
Has pretty much same features, same interface. 40 bucks.
I also prefer Linux because I do Web development, so the software I use most often is written for Linux/BSD, and ported to Windows. Getting Apache or a decent Database server working properly on XP is a chore. I suspect it would be easier if I used Win 2000 or Server 2003, but I don't want to drop the cash when there's a free alternative that I have no problem with.
The best way I can think to summarise my relative experience with XP and Linux is that Windows is easy to get going, but a pain to maintain, Linux is (in some cases) tougher to get going, but once configured will be perfectly happy to run with minimal intervention. I just want an OS that works, and doesn't require constant tweaking.
Hmh, I can get Apache and MySQL (or Oracle) database properly running on Windows XP under 10 mins, 15 if I'm lazy.
You need to run anti-virus and anti-malware software, and keep them up to date.
The wireless configuration utility that's bundled with Windows kept hijacking* my connection settings which killed my connection every time it happened, because it didn't have the WEP key.
User permissions and services on XP seem to follow some bizzare and twisted logic of their own**.
I got hit with Starforce (from trackmania nations, I think), which meant both my DVD-RW and CD-RW wouldn't burn discs that were readable in any other machine, the removal tool didn't help.
I had to keep IE hanging around to use Windows update (until I discovered Autopatcher) which would, for no readily apparent reason, change all my filetype associations at random times. WMP does the same thing.
Sometimes I'd get that irritating "what do you want Windows to do now?" pop-up on media insertion, sometimes I wouldn't, the "always do the selected action" option didn't seem to do anything.
I've never managed to get Windows network shares to work correctly. I'll set them up, and they'll work. Then they'll stop working when nothings been changed. Then they'll work again with no intervention.
Product activation is a massive arse-pain, and vaguely insulting.
Every so often my default printer would change, again for no readily apparent reason.
The Windows GUI seems to handle paging to disk really, really badly. I have 2GB of RAM, but minimising an application still causes the machine too freeze up for a couple of seconds while the desktop refreshes itself three or four times.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, most of the problems I have stem from the fact that configuration settings won't "stick."
*I was using the software that came with the adapter, because both the adapter and the access point were made by 3Com, and there's a couple of handy features that the 3Com software gives you.
**Trying to run Apache or Postgres without opening up the whole box is extremely troublesome.
Admittedly, this is reduced dramatically with user-friendly distros like Ubuntu/Kubuntu (<3), but it's still there. Despite stereotypes, Windows applications tend to Just Work. You install them and you run them, happy days; they may clutter up your system just a fraction more, bringing it closer to Nuke And Pave stage, but they do work.
Trying to get media applications to work in Linux tends to be closer to pulling teeth at times, especially when it comes to codecs or random crashes. The problems I've had over the years ranged from Kaffeine crashing with each start (still clueless), X locking up (problems with nVidia cards running in NV mode), mouse pointer disappearing (nVidia issue with choosing the incorrect X session to assign it to when switching from one to the other when using graphical booting), GUI user -- super user verification not working (completely random), update completely utterly fucking up my config files and making the system unbootable without intervention (thanks, Gentoo, you son of a whore), to botched installs where my MBR got wiped (ah, the old days of LILO) or the system incorrectly detecting my HD cylinders, 'fixing' the problem and killing Windows, to the filesystem randomly corrupting itself into a kernel panic during a random reboot,...
This is ignoring issues like GAIM always (always) starting to lose messages after a couple of days of use, the inconsistent mishmash of UI design between applications and other non-critical annoyances.
I develop software in Linux for a living, and I know and appreciate and use the system's strengths (my router is an old Linux box running Debian), but Jesus, it just drives me bonkers as a desktop machine.
I'll admit that my experiences don't seem to be the norm. Ubuntu was easier to get from install->usable desktop for me than XP, mostly because all my hardware (except my wireless card) was recognised and installed automatically. I just had to re-install the wireless driver, add a couple of repositories, fire up synaptic and select the software I wanted. Hit apply and .. done.
Xp needed a lot more drivers, and I had to manually run Autopatcher and the installers for all the software I wanted. It's not significantly more effort, it just felt more time-consuming and less pleasant. I think I have some issues with XP defaulting to what I think of as "newbie mode" where every trivial event fires up a helpful wizard to baby you through the process of, say, configuring autorun.
I'll also admit that I don't use my desktop machine for media, except mp3s. I use XBMC hooked to my TV, which handles everything I can throw at it.
I could get it working, but I was never confident enough to open it to the Internet at large. I've never been able to wrap my head round the necessary permissions voodoo to protect the rest of the machine.
If WINE ran Tiberian Sun at a decent speed and there would be an easy up to date guide to recompiling the kernel with support for IP over firewire, I probably wouldn't have formatted and reinstalled Windows.
Installing XP takes a lot more time, but I install lots of stuff that's not really needed.
This is very true. My point of contention with Windows is that, in my experience, it's impossible to fix something in Windows and have it stay fixed. The cynic in me is compelled to point out that if I went for "the complete Microsoft experience" ie. only using the products that are either part of Windows or made by Microsoft I probably wouldn't have had most of those problems.
You also wouldn't've been able to do a lot of what you wanted, as Microsoft relies on 3rd parties for a lot of their software. Still, and I'm sure you'll agree, it's nice to be on an OS that doesn't have "format and reinstall" as something users actually consider as a worthwhile fix.
That's a really weird experience, since XP was the most hassle free OS I've used in a long time. I had a lot of the problems you mentioned when I used Win98 or had to use (god forbid) ME. In XP, I have literally never had any problems since I started using it when it came out.
As for having to run virusscan or antispyware and keep them up to date...don't you update your antivirus solutions on Mac? I'm not seeing the difference here. I like Macs almost as much as PCs, but I don't understand the problems you're having.
I also have Ubuntu, but it doesn't do anything that I'm not already doing in XP. I just use it to test cross-platform programs.
Also, I
I would probably buy a Mac if their prices came down and they stopped showing snooty commercials full of misinformation.
Format and reinstall is only a "worthwhile fix" in the world of untechnical support where it is easier to have retard_001 rebuild than try to attempt to solve their issue. The same person who would rebuild a windows machine would throw their hands up in the air if they ever had a problem with Linux. And speaking of rebuilds, what the hell is a kernel recompile? Those seem to be awfully more common than any rebuilds I've ever done on my windows machine considering the only reason I've ever had to rebuild in the last 6+ years is for motherboard + additional hardware complete swap outs. And out of those hardware upgrades, most of them were due for a new OS anyways.
Microsoft relies on 3rd parties for a lot, just like Linux or anyone else does. Or is all of Linux's open source packages considered 1st party now? Anyways, yes, you wouldn't have much with just Microsoft software involved, that wasn't the point I was getting at and saw no reason to correct japan. The point was that your machine is only as stable as your applications regardless of whether they are first or 3rd party. You can't just blame microsoft if you install gator. Obviously japan didn't install gator, but he installed something that was of poor enough quality to cause issues and instead of troubleshooting what that might be he switched operating platforms. Which I think is fine, but I also don't believe was the only or quickest route to stability.
He is using Linux IIRC. But it also has virus scanners for it. Basically, he is choosing to accept the risk in Linux but not in Windows because Windows is a primary target due to the massive userbase.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on a Mac.
There was one proof-of-concept virus a couple of years ago, but it actually required users to run the file, and even then, did pretty much nothing.
And before I hear "userbase to small, no one wants to write a virus lolz", keep in mind that the first person who does successfully write a virus that has an actual effect would gain fame and notoriety. The reason there aren't viruses is because the UNIX/BSD framework OS X is running on is rock-solid and secure.
And I can see why PC users would feel insulted by those Mac commercials, but after using XP for years, they give me a good laugh.
I know enough that this won't be happening, and has never happened.
I can't just fix this thing from parts at Frys and it is far out of warranty.
That blows
And Vista's far more than a reskin, when I tested it in the public betas (or whatever it was) I ran it in classic, and I still noticed tons of differences.
As long as you're not a dumbass, use Firefox or IE7, and run behind a firewall, Windows is perfectly safe.
It does seem to be an unusual experience, certainly. I'm not suggesting that anyone who uses Windows will have the same experiences I did. XP was a massive improvement over previous versions of Windows, and it is very stable. Most of my issues are to do with (fairly minor) UI configuration issues. In some ways I think I'm a victim of my own bloody-mindedness, in that it bugs the crap out of me when settings unexpectedly revert to defaults that I don't like.
The conspiracy theorist in me wants to say that Windows is trying to force me to use IE, WMP and the Windows wireless configuration utility as part of Microsoft's world domination plans, but it's most likely something to do with registry settings going weird and default settings being loaded in their place.
Starforce, starforce, lol.
You are right about the third party software, but my XP install was/is stable, it's configuration things and UI conventions that bugged me. I also have a philosophical disagreement with Microsoft about where the OS should end and applications should begin, and Vista pushes Windows further away from what I'd ideally want.
Ultimately, I don't think I'm a typical case. I learned to use a computer with an Amiga, and Windows conventions have never sat right with me (plus its taken 20 years for Microsoft to catch up with the hardware accelerated GUI idea). I had experimentally moved to Linux a couple of times before, but there have always been deal-breaking flaws that have prevented me using it as a primary desktop. Now I've either accomodated those problems (gaming) or moved those functions to another device (media), there's no reason for me to keep Windows around anymore.
Settings that don't stick bug the hell out of me too. But here is a tidbit of what I was originally going to write in my post but decided not to attempt to fix problems you don't actually have anymore. Microsoft Windows Wireless Config has a very specific checkbox that is easy to miss to tell it not try to use it's own program to configure wireless. Trust me, I ran into the same thing with logitech's own program. Although, the reality is that if you don't need the extra features, the windows wireless program actually runs a lot more smoothly than 3rd party programs.
And for the associations, sometimes windows associations get corrupted or at least microsoft feels they are corrupted because the registry setting is no longer something that is expected, some 3rd party application has modified the HKEY classes in an incorrect manner. When this happens, you actually have to go into windows explorer/file associations and the "advanced" button has usually been replaced with a "restore" button. Clicking that restore button changes them back to default (a good feature) but also makes them properly modifiable once again so that a program that does work correctly can take that association away from whatever the default or corrupted state once was. Also, you have to be careful of applications that "monitor" their associations, Quicktime is by far the worst, in that if you just re-associate the extension to another program without first de-associating it with these programs that monitor, they will go and reset them back on you.
Edit: And starforce is basically a company backed destructive virus. Lucky it's reputation is destroying it.
I've been running Windows XP from RC1, and before that Windows 2000 since, well, 2000. I've never owned nor installed an antivirus program. My system is still virus-free, and will be for years to come until it gets replaced again.
There is absolutely no need to run anti-virus programs on Windows (unless you put viruses on your computer).
I know I will get someone coming in here and yelling at me about how "they didn't do anything wrong" and they got a virus. Guess what? If you got a virus, then you did something wrong. They don't happen via telepathy.
i think that XP solved a lot of problems.
now it is simply disdain.
but the thing is, i use my comp for audio purposes. vista will apperently be good for pro audio, but even XP isnt so great. OS X has its issues, but they tend to be small specific things.
i don't evangelicize, but i do end up defending the mac platform a lot.
here is a story:
(before i begin; on OS 9, you had to allocate RAM to programs. it was an application property and was pretty simple to change if you had administrative privileges.)
now, the story.
i needed to make a flyer for a show i was doing. i went to SDSU library to use their computers since i didnt have illustrator. i like macs, so i found one and went to work. illustrator froze. it froze in a very specific way which made me think it didnt have enough RAM allocated to it. lo and behold, 32MB. i ask the lab aide who has admin privileges and if they could just quickly fix a problem.
he comes over to 'figure out what is wrong' (I just told him.) and as i try to reiterate, he tells me it's freezing because macs suck, cant run illustrator properly, and that i should just use a windows comp.
and he is the friggin lab aide.
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I run Linux at home... mostly for fun, but also 'cause I've only got 128Meg of RAM and I'm to lazy to buy more. XP at work because we've got a lot of Windows only apps we run. I break the home machine all the time because I tinker with it. The work ones haven't given us any trouble though. XP isn't nearly as bad of as most Linux and OSX users would want you to think.
I tend to run a web based scan after every major virus epidemic, which don't come around very often, once in a good 6 months or so. Just to be on the safe side.
i think this is true as of XP some revision or other.
before that...not so much. i know someone who laughed at the fact that he could make a webpage that gave you a virus. just by navigating to the website.
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Uh... no offense, but if a program can't dynamically allocate memory to itself then the OS pretty much does suck. Also that non-preempting thing kinda hurt it.
like or dislike macs, there's nobody in the world who could sanely claim that OS X wasn't a gigantic leap past OS 9.
Stop using IE. Stop visiting disreputable websites. I don't understand how this is so confusing.
And just to clear something up: Assume that all internet porn contains viruses. That will go a long way toward keeping your computer virus free.
change "leap past" to "change from". A lot of people still prefer os 9
and OS X breaks a lot of OS 9 greatness. so gigantic leap is a bit much.
yeah, you know, i was not saying windows was bad now.
really.
and IE is evil. yes. (it's part of the OS ...can't delete it. funny.)
not confusing. funny.
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please go on.
seriously.
Nintendo Friend Code: SW-0689-9921-0006
I had a great moment yesterday when the new "PCs have to strap on unyieldy camera peripherals" commercial came on. I happened to be setting up my new HP dv6000t, and was staring right at the integrated camera.
Those commercials are kinda fun, though. They usually crack me up for some reason or another. I also don't think they help Mac in the long run, as trying to coerce consumers by insulting previous choices never gets anywhere.
I will concede that folder settings (view as pictures, thumbnails, details, etc.) will occasionally change without any obvious reason to. I haven't had a need to correct it, since I can navigate the various views equally well.
I probably agree with this more. I thought XP was sorta pushy at first. However, I was under the impression that Apple is even worse about its requirement of dedication to first-party practically-built-in utilities. Is the third-party Mac market pretty robust?
As an aside, what are dev tools like on Mac? I already
Is it anything in particular? Maybe I'm just keyed well enough into Windows these days that the flaws are transparent to me, but XP works out pretty well for me. The only time I had a problem was trying to uninstall Vista and finding out they have a replacement for boot.ini. FixMBR resolved it, but it was quite a surprise.
I certainly can't argue with that. I wouldn't mind hearing more about your opinions on this issue, but I don't think this is the thread for that.
EDIT: John Hodgman is fantastic. I love whenever he's on This American Life. I hate that other dork, though. Go play hackysack in the quad, you stupid neo-hippie.
"I'm going in for major surgery because like most PCs I'll need to have almost all my components replaced just so's I can run Vista." my ass. My 2 year old computer was running Vista just fine.
You'll need an Intel based Mac if you want to run any of the new software coming out from major companies, but you don't really ever get to hear John Hodgeman throw that back in the kid's face.
Also, I love the irony of the new one where there's PC and some guy who's dressed as Mac that PC uses as a straw man to make fun of the mac until the mac comes back and is all like "what's this then?" It's like watching System Wars on TV.