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[Abortion] Catholic Church: wait, noone was supposed to actually use that exception
Kistra
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In late 2009 a 27 year old woman was rushed to St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix, AZ. She was 11 weeks pregnant and had right sided heart failure. The only treatment for her condition is abortion. She was extremely sick, too sick to risk moving to a different hospital or even into a real operating room. After an emergency meeting of the ethics panel it was recommended to allow the ER docs to go ahead and perform an abortion to save her life.
Last week the Phoenix archdiocese excommunicated the nun that signed off on allowing the abortion.
The ethics panel based it's decision off of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care
Services :
So... is the catholic church basically saying that their exception for the life of the mother clause is just for show? That they didn't really mean for women to be allowed to get an abortion when they are dying?
Does this imply that next time a women comes into a catholic ER in a similar situation the doctors are expected to just let her die? Should we change how ambulances are routed to ERs? Should patients be allowed to request to not be taken to a catholic hospital?
Links:
NPR story
Statement from the Pheonix archdiocese
Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services
Last week the Phoenix archdiocese excommunicated the nun that signed off on allowing the abortion.
The ethics panel based it's decision off of the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care
Services :
47. Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a
proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they
cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of
the unborn child.
So... is the catholic church basically saying that their exception for the life of the mother clause is just for show? That they didn't really mean for women to be allowed to get an abortion when they are dying?
Does this imply that next time a women comes into a catholic ER in a similar situation the doctors are expected to just let her die? Should we change how ambulances are routed to ERs? Should patients be allowed to request to not be taken to a catholic hospital?
Links:
NPR story
Statement from the Pheonix archdiocese
Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services
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Also, this is another reason I am thankful of seperation of Church and State.
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In the eyes of the Catholic Church: It is one thing to perform an abortion as a medical procedure where the RESULT is an abortion in order to then go on and try to cure the problem. It is something else to perform a medical procedure that tries to cure the problem and the SIDE EFFECT of the procedure happens to maybe cause an abortion... I hope that makes sense. I believe it's called the principle of double effect and you might want to wiki it for a better explanation.
So that's the actual interpretation of the bit of ethics you quoted; it would've been one thing if they gave her meds as a cure and oh whoops, caused an abortion - that's ok. It's another thing entirely if the CURE ITSELF is to have an abortion - that's not ok. The situation was the latter and apparently that's what the nun signed off on.
tl;dr: Whether or not you think it's fucked up, the Catholic Church did actually stick with its rules and exceptions.
Directive 47 has the exception for abortion; life and death of the mother.
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No, it doesn't. Also look at 45:
Also, even in the NPR article:
If you are going to die, and the cure will also casue an abortion, that's okay. If you are going to die and the cure is abortion, not okay.
The nun was pushing the boundries by giving an exception under 47. Her bosses dissagreed. It's what spacemilk said: Whether or not you think it's fucked up, the Catholic Church did actually stick with its rules and exceptions.
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But jesus christ if it's life threatening for the mother it's better to only lose one life, not two.
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And let me requote that and highlight the relevant part: The direct purpose cannot be an abortion; that's what was "wrong" in this situation. Normally the Catholic Church wouldn't allow the use of meds that may result in an abortion unless the mother's life is in danger; so I think that's the exception you're thinking of.
I think the problem is that the nun signed off on an abortion, which is not ok, rather than signing off on a medication where the primary purpose of the med would've saved the mother's life but side affect may be an abortion, which is not ok. The Catholic Church sees a distinction here; some may not.
Here is the wiki article for the basis of this doctrine.
oooooh ouch beat'd bad
What if I'm unconscious and can't even voice my opinion?
Holy fucking shitfuck
Serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman: The fact that she'd die if she gave birth.
Semantics of the directive's wording aside, the Catholic Church are being hypocrites. They scream about the sanctity of life, but would rather have 2 people die than 1 unborn child who'd have little chance of even surviving birth.
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When I realize the deep social biases that are probably in all doctors, I kind of get scared.
I'm just gonna lime a little something there since you cut off your bolded point a little early.
:^::^:
That was more my point. I could care less what the catholic church's policy is. Until their policy starts directing them to let people die from easily preventable causes of death.
Worse! Their policy directs them to let people who don't agree with their beliefs die.
Hell, doing it to a Catholic woman is bad enough, but doing it to a woman who genuinely believes (and belief is absolutely all we have to go on when it comes to God and the afterlife) that her existence is about to be permanently snuffed out by someone who thinks she'll go to heaven? ...Over the life of a child who is guaranteed to die either way?
That is murder. There is no other word for it.
If Catholic doctors don't want to perform procedures that go against their beliefs, then they should stop being doctors or change their beliefs. They can't have both.
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They saved the woman's life. They are doing their job. They didn't refuse service.
But they got in trouble for doing it, the implication being that if they find themselves in that situation again, they are to let her die.
It's not pro-life. It's something else...
Some (not all) of the "pro-life" arguments can more accurately be described as "anti-woman". The "abortion is always wrong except in cases of rape" argument is a classic example. This is case another example.
Are you posting from an alternate universe where they chose to not do the medical procedure to save the woman's life? Just curious.
They fired someone for that procedure.
I think this really deserves to be highlighted.
In spite of the fact that it's a Catholic hospital, there's a difference between the hospital's ethical guidelines for treatment and Catholic moral teaching. The hospital's ethics certainly find part of their basis there, but no modern system of medical ethics is ever going to be 100% compatible with the teachings of the Church. The Bishop who excommunicated this nun doesn't dictate what goes on at the hospital. I'm not saying this to excuse the Bishop's actions, which I find, quite frankly, to be craven, hypocritical and a naked example of political extremism; rather I'd like to recognize that the doctors, administrators and hospital ethicist (the nun) in this case did the right thing regardless of the consequences they may personally face.
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You'd think this kind of common sense would be a little more prevalent in... what are they called?
Oh yeah, human beings.
You mean those things that sort of look like me?
Fired someone, or the church excommunicated a nun? Nun not a doctor. And nun, rightfully so, signed off on it.
Yes, they're very similar yet unquestionably superior to gay people.
And I'm sure clergy continue to receive their salaries after being excommunicated.
Fucking monsters, I can only hope that in the future no medical professional stops and thinks about their job before deciding whether or not to save their patients life because of this.
What are you insinuating
I said "so far."
I'm reading 47 over and over and I still don't see how this doesn't count.
Also, is it possible to be un-excommunicated?
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